Welcome to Courage to Advance, hosted by Kim Bohr and brought to you by SparkEffect, in partnership with The Empathy Edge. Tune in here every 3rd Thursday, or visit CourageToAdvancePodcast.com.
Kim Bohr and anthropologist Aaron Delgaty, PhD dive deep into the “arrival fallacy” – the pervasive belief that happiness and fulfillment lie just beyond the next project deadline, quarter, or milestone. Drawing from extensive research on workplace dynamics, they explore how four essential elements – continuity, reciprocity, purpose, and hope – shape our working relationships and overall job satisfaction. Through the lens of anthropology and organizational behavior, they examine why we fall into patterns of perpetually postponing contentment and how this impacts everything from team dynamics to bottom-line business outcomes.
The conversation weaves together insights from Gallup’s research on employee engagement, real-world examples of boundary setting, and practical strategies for breaking free from the “things will get better” cycle. You will be challenged to have honest conversations about work relationships and learn why misalignment isn’t always about bad management.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Having honest conversations with yourself and others is crucial for maintaining healthy working relationships
- The four essential elements of working relationships are: continuity, reciprocity, purpose, and hope
- Setting clear boundaries is vital for sustainable work practices and personal wellbeing
- Misalignment in work relationships isn’t always about bad management – sometimes it’s about fit
- Even introverts need to talk about workplace challenges to create positive change
“The arrival fallacy is like balancing on a one-legged stool of hope. You might maintain it temporarily, but you’re operating on an unsustainable promise of ‘someday.'” – Aaron Delgaty, PhD
About Aaron Delgaty, PhD
Aaron Delgaty, PhD, is a cultural anthropologist and ethnographer. He received his doctorate in cultural anthropology from the Univeristy of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in 2020. His research explores what shapes worker and workplace resilience and how resilience resists, crumbles, or reforms in the aftermath of personal and collective disaster. In addition to teaching research methods and anthropological theory, Aaron leads research for brand strategy agency TSC.
About SparkEffect
SparkEffect partners with organizations to unlock the full potential of their greatest asset: their people. Through their tailored assessments and expert coaching at every level, SparkEffect helps organizations manage change, sustain growth, and chart a path to a brighter future.
Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.
Connect with Aaron Delgaty, PhD
The anthropology of work: aarondelgaty.com
TSC: tsc.chat
Aaron’s Book: Working Relationships: Crisis and resilience at the heart of employee experience
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/adelgaty
Connect with Kim Bohr and SparkEffect
SparkEffect: sparkeffect.com
Courage to Advance recording and resources:
sparkeffect.com/courage-to-advance-podcast
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/sparkeffect
LinkedIn for Kim Bohr: linkedin.com/in/kimbohr
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s new book: TheEmpathyDilemma.com
Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Welcome to the empathy edge and our sub series, courage to advance, hosted by Kim bore and brought to you by spark effect in partnership with us here at the empathy edge. You can tune into this sub series every third Thursday of the month, right here on the empathy edge. Or you can visit www dot courage to advance podcast.com Today’s episode will be a great one for you, as Kim speaks with anthropologist Aaron Delgaty, and they dive deep into the arrival fallacy, the belief that happiness and fulfillment lie just beyond the next project deadline order or milestone, you’ll learn today how to break the things will get better cycle. Take a listen.
Kim Bohr 01:30
Welcome everybody. I’m Kim bore president and COO of Spark effect and host of the courage to advance podcast, and I’m delighted to be here today with Aaron Delgaty. He’s an anthropologist of work and resilience in residence at TSC. Aaron also has a PhD in cultural anthropology and has a book released earlier this year called working relationships, crisis, resilience at the heart of employee experience. Aaron, welcome to the courage to advance podcast. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I am so excited for you to be here and for our listeners. Here’s a compelling question. How many times have you told yourself, once I get through this project, quarter year, things will get better? Personally, this is something that I have found myself repeating more than I’d like to admit, and I thought it was time to examine more closely where this is coming from, because I feel I’m not the only one that may be experiencing this as well. So today, our conversation is going to explore this concept, termed a rival fallacy, and the impact that this has on our working relationships. So, Aaron, I’d love for you to start us off by talking about why the focus on working relationships in your in the lens that you hold. As an anthropologist,
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 02:55
absolutely. So I had an advisor tell me once that kind of the core of anthropology, and the core of sort of why study culture is that our lives are kind of full of things that go without saying, kind of come without saying, because they go without saying. They’re things that are sort of habits or ways of being or ways of seeing the world that are so kind of natural to the way that we operate and that we learn through, you know, we learn without anyone actually telling us it. It’s just something we pick up naturally, but that they go kind of unremarked upon. But those things are actually like when you actually put those things under a microscope. You look at those things, they’re actually the most interesting because they have such a big impact in shaping our lives. So it’s like, the foundation of your house, you don’t really see it, but like, is everything to your house. Like, if your foundation is, you know, there’s a problem in your foundation, everything else is shaky. And so working relationships was this idea of, well, we have a relationship to the work that we do like, we have these things. We have jobs like. We’re the only animal that kind of works and like is employed and has resumes and things like that. And we don’t really talk about it a whole lot in terms of, like, we talk about it a lot in this sort of, kind of minutia of it, of like, oh, you know, TPS reports and this, you know, like doing this skill or having that qualification. But we don’t really talk about it a whole lot in the sort of why of it. Like, why do we do any of this? Like, what does this do for us? Like, why are we the animal that works? And why, in sort of, what is this relationship that we have to this thing that we see as, like, work? And so that’s kind of, you know, where it started. Like, we talk about this idea of working relationships, like we have a. Relationship that is, you know, like we work with somebody, and that’s a working relationship. We also use working relationship in the sense that it’s a relationship that’s kind of in progress, like it’s under construction. And these kind of relationships, like at work, you know, there’s a lot of, I think not so much of a play on words, but I think sort of the language of it kind of reveals how many layers there are to it that actually we form relationships to work, and we develop these relationships to work over the course of our lives, and they have this huge impact on not just sort of our professional identity, but really every aspect of our life, like we make our way through the world by working. And so what is the nature of this relationship, and how do we, you know, for better or worse, influence this relationship, and what does it mean when that relationship is positive, and what does it mean when that relationship is negative?
Kim Bohr 06:04
One of the things that, and I told you before, I’ve like, I’ve got your my tabs in your book, and I really, really enjoyed reading it. And one of the things that you talk about that you know, when I read it made sense, and yet I had, I think so many of us think about working relationships in the sense of the individuals we work with. You speak to of, really a few layers of that dynamic of working relationships, of which the very initial layer is the actual, not literal contract, right? But the work can you speak a little bit about that, the dynamic of, even if it’s just a job, in people’s minds, there is a relationship that exists. And I think that’s contextually. I think that’s a really interesting place to start. Yeah,
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 06:50
you know. And so kind of to your point, we can think about working relationships as our relationship to the people we work with, like the sort of folks we collaborate with or report to. We can also think about it as the relationship to the organization. So this is like, the idea of like employer brand that people have taught like, we talk about employer brand, and you know, you have a relationship to the organization as like a sort of going concern. But we also have a relationship to the actual work that we do, like the actual practices and motions that we go through every day. If you think about sort of like, if you’re like a researcher, the research that the work that you do is asking questions and collecting answers, and maybe it’s putting it into sort of spreadsheets, or putting it into software, drawing analysis, writing out, or sort of sharing that analysis in some way, and then delivering it like there are specific work functions that you have to do, if you’re a teacher, you are doing the work that you do is both managing, you know, children, but it’s also about taking in information and then sort of, you know, regurgitating that information in a way that is accessible to the sort of people that you’re managing. And so the question becomes, you know, not just about how much do you like or not like, or sort of, what does your relationship to the people that you are working with or the organization that you’re working for? How does that affect your life? But how does the work itself like the fact that you spend a fair portion of every workday doing this kind of constrained set of activities, what is that doing to you? You have a relationship to that as well. Like it marks us in like physical ways. It marks us in emotional ways. It sort of shapes our philosophy, like when you talk to a sales person, you know you’re talking to a salesperson, because there’s a certain sort of philosophy that sales people generally have. They have optimism, like, it would be pretty impossible to be a salesperson and be, like, nihilistic about things. So the work that we do not just sort of the people we work with or the institutions we work for, but it’s the work that we do actually has a huge impact on who we are. So you can’t really leave the work that is being done out of the equation, because it has such a profound impact on us, for better and for worse.
Kim Bohr 09:37
And I think, you know, there’s so much research right that’s been done on this, and I know Marcus Buckingham has done research on understanding people’s unique characteristics, and that, you know, if 20% of what they do is tied to those characteristics and things they really love, there’s going to be greater engagement. Another stat I was came across was. A scientist and researcher, Dr Gillian Maddock, really that does research around health science says, you know, 40% of our happiness is determined by our everyday thoughts and behaviors. And there’s some other ones that we’ll talk about here in a moment. But I think what’s so important is that this is really, you know, we if we may have great relationships and but the case that you’re making is, if the work itself isn’t aligned in ways that we feel really positive about, that’s also that can have a negative impact on other aspects of our engagement and our happiness as well.
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 10:40
Yeah. I mean, like, you know, going to college, like, you know, we’ve been talking about, you know, your sons in college and stuff. And it’s like, how many people are in like, majors that they hate? Or like, Oh, I’m in this major. And you’re like, Well, why are you in this major? It’s like, well, I don’t really like doing math and I don’t really like looking at rocks. And it’s like, why are you a geologist? Then? Like, yeah, oh, I don’t know. It’s like, you realize that that’s what the work of geology is. It’s like, you’re going to be outside and like, messing around with rocks and doing math. Like, that’s like, if you don’t like, tell us, like, if you don’t like, you know, microscopes, you probably shouldn’t be doing something in microbiology. Like,
Kim Bohr 11:19
so, and I think so many of us get in, you know, generations before this current Gen Z, I would argue there it was. There’s things that were just expected, right? So we were expected to go to college, and, you know, many of us were told, yeah, you’ll figure it out when you’re there. I think you know what you and I have talked about before we got on to this podcast conversation was my son was not buying into that, you know, until he understood exactly what he wanted to do. He wasn’t going to go and just go for the sake of anything, right? And so for him, he is finding alignment with what brings him joy and happiness, and he feels like he can contribute to and I think that is a shift that’s starting to take place. And to, you know, to what you you write about, the idea of misalignment in these areas is going to impact what we know is from just the whole aspect of performance and, you know, productivity and everything else that’s so important to not just the business world, but just our own personal health and well being. So tell our audience more about this idea of a rival fallacy, and you know, this concept that is so aligned into what you write about with working relationships? Yeah,
12:39
you know. And
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 12:41
just kind of thinking about this, like arrival fell say, like we’ve all done it, like we’ve all been there. We’ve all said, Oh well, you know, like, once I get through X, Y or Z, things will be better. I just need to, like, you know, keep my head down. And then when we come out the other side. I mean, how many of us are doing that right now, with, like, the holidays coming up, we’re like, oh God, just gotta get through November, 1 part of December, and then we’ll be home free, you know. And, yeah, there are times where that is inevitable. There are times where, like, you know, work doesn’t typically flow in, like, an even fashion it, you know, there’s kind of High Times and low times. There’s times when you’re really busy in times when, you know, maybe you’re not as busy, but, you know, the sort of arrival thing is like, I mean, I grew up listening to people talk about this, not just so I run up on a, you know, quarterly or a weekly basis, but on sort of a life basis, like, Oh, I just need to put in my time. And then when I retire, I’ll get to go, you know, fishing, and I’ll get a go and, like, do the things that I actually want to do. And, you know, I’m not trying to say that, like, oh, there’s a world in which everybody gets to do exactly what they want to do all the time, like, that sort of, not kind of, I mean, I’m an optimist, but I’m also a realist at the same time. But I think that to an extent, that arrival fallacy excuses us, kind of checking out of our relationship to the work in the moment, and just say, Oh well, we’ll kind of get to it later, when the I think maybe a more productive question, if you’re able to ask, it is, well, you know, why am I just getting through this, like, right now, this period of time, like, why am, like, these kind of hard times, like, these times of struggle are a good opportunity to really kind of assess, like, whether or not you Know you like this or this is a good relationship for you. It’s like, you know, I mean, like anyone can win, but like you lose, you know, you learn a lot about yourself when you lose. And so, like, when you’re in that kind of like, this is not a good situation. I am not having a good time. Like, that’s a. Really important moment to sort of say, well, this is not a good time to lose touch of myself. And this is not a good time to say, Oh, well, we’ll be happy down the road. Because, like,
15:13
I don’t know, like,
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 15:15
when times are tough, I think that’s the time to really like, do kind of more of the homework. So I think, oh, go ahead. Sorry. I
Kim Bohr 15:23
would say, Well, no, I think to your point, right time. One of the things that we know as we get older, that we wished we understood better as we were younger, is that time just continues to feel like it just goes by so quickly. And I think as I’ve reflected on this, and you and I have had conversations leading up to this calm today, one of the things I’ve realized is that there will, the more we continue to have this belief, eventually I will get to that, whether it be health or travel or, you know, or just relationships, or whatever it is, that it feels like that you look back and that time has passed so quickly, and it’s started to build, you know, it’s, you know, three years. It’s four years. And I think that is a very at some point, it’s like, what do we have to do to try to disrupt that, you know? And we’ll talk a little bit about those, you know, some of those elements that we think could be implemented to try to disrupt that behavior. I think one of the things that I want to share with the audience too, you know, really continuing to ground why this is such an important conversation into the impact of business, is you mentioned this in your book, and I’ve pulled even the recent statistics that were updated in January this year, Gallup has conducted multiple studies. At the time of pulling this research, it was around their 10th meta analysis on engagement and workforce, and one of the what they use in this study, we’ll put the link in the show notes, so people can geek out at it if they want. But essentially, they looked at 456, research studies across 276, organizations, 54 industries and 96 countries, and in this they found there was 11 key performance outcomes. They referenced customer loyalty and engagement, profitability, productivity, turnover, safety incidents, shrinkage, absenteeism, patient safety incidents, quality related to defects, well being related to net thriving employees and organizational citizenship related to participation. As hard analysis data that has come from the importance of working relationships, engagement and business outcomes. And so one of the things that I thought was really interesting in reading your book and the conversations we’ve had is also around you speak to four essential elements that your research has shown to be really important in this idea of working relationships. And I’d love for you to speak a little bit more to those four, and then we’ll talk about how, you know, how did those really align or misalign in that arrival fallacy loop that many of us may be in?
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 18:17
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And so I do kind of identify for elements. And my general argument is that it’s not so much that the elements need to be in, like perfect balance, but they have to be present enough to be impactful, or else you start to sort of, you know, experience issues. So the first one is continuity. Like you have to feel like the work that you do, that you’re working relationship so to the organization, to the work that you’re doing, to the people that you’re working with, will more or less stay consistent over time. So like that, if you are worried that every morning you wake up that you’ll have, maybe that’ll be an email that says, Oh, you’re laid off. Like, that’s not continuity, like, that’s, you know, discontinuity. Like, that’s like, Oh, geez. If, if your organization is constantly turning people over, and so you’re constantly having to meet new people, and you never really feel like your team is stabilized. If your work, like, you know, all these industries right now that are disrupted by AI, if it’s like, well, what is the work that we’re doing anymore like now that you know, AI is in the mix, do we still have a need for the thing that I do you we imagine our relationships ideally, like our relationships to family members, like, our relationships to spouses, our relationships to friends, as being infinite, like we don’t sort of set a day and say, Okay, well, we’re going to be friends for like, 10 years, and then we’re not going to be frenzy. Or maybe we’ll renew the contract on, like, December 15, 2025 we’ll like, come back and like, oh, let’s review. It’s not a business, really. Relationship. It’s a personal relationship, and we assume that that relationship will continue indefinitely. So we treat our working relationships as if they were indefinite relationships, and so we want to feel like that relationship is indefinite, like it’s not going to just be it’s not going to go away at some arbitrary time, or it’s not going to just be pulled out from under us. So if you’re living in a state where you’re like, at any moment, the rug could get pulled out from under me. Like, that’s not a good situation. The second is like, reciprocation. So the kind of life blood of a relationship is a fair give and take. So if I do something for you, and you do something for me in proportion to that thing. And then I say, Oh, well, you’ve done this for me, and I’ll do something for you. And you say, Well, you’ve done something for me, and I’ll do something for you. And so forth and on and on and on. The cycle goes indefinitely, like, you buy your friend coffee this week and they buy you coffee next week. And so you’re like, Well, you have to buy them coffee, because they got it last week. And the relationship goes on and on and on forever. So we need to see a fair give and take, like the work that we put in has to be met, you know, with a proportionate not always fair, because fairness is like, is a tricky calculus that and we have our own kind of internal calculus of like what we think is like proportional or not proportional, and some people are unreasonable and some people are reasonable about that, you know. But we all have our sort of own internal calculus of whether we feel like we are in a fair relationship or whether we are being screwed like work, then also our relationships or work have to be purposeful. We have to have purpose. Like, we’ve got to feel like there’s a point to all of this, right, like, just because it’s consistent and just because, you know, there’s this give and take, we’ve also got to feel like what we’re doing here actually has like, like a purpose to it. Like, whether that purpose is we’re supporting our family, or we’re making the world a better place, or, you know, we’re living the dream. It’s, you know, it’s got to feel like we’re, you know, if you’re sort of really involved in pointless work, and we all do, like pointless tasks, and like, if you do too many pointless tasks, you’re going to start feeling like your work is pointless. And if you feel like your work is pointless, it’s like, well, why am I doing this? Like, what’s the point? So work has to be purposeful, and to an extent. I mean, I think purpose for it has to be supply. Like, that’s an internal your employer can’t give you purpose. Like they can suggest maybe things you could take up as a purpose, but like, purpose is sort of an internal thing. And finally, there’s hope, I think, that at a fundamental level, and particularly Americans, we have to hope that, like, the world tomorrow is going to be a better place, that this relationship will continue to change, and it will change for the better, that we’re not stuck in a way. We’re not like, sort of, we don’t want sort of a relationship that is like, so that is volatile, like, constantly all over the place. But we want to say that sort of, we are on this kind of gradual uphill trend, like, we want to be on, like, the good we want to be on the front foot, not on the back foot. And I think that kind of where these all kind of come in like, is that, you know, particularly if you look at like the their arrival fallacy, you know, in that moment, you’re so hopeful that, like, the, you know, Thanksgiving holiday, or the winter holiday, or the vacation you have planned In spring or something is going to be so great that it will make, you know, make all of the things that you’re currently doing make sense. And I think that that’s a great moment to look and say, Okay, well, you’ve got that hope that’s great, that things will get better. But like, how are things going with, like, purpose and, you know, reciprocity, like you’re burning the candle at both ends. Well, then, you know, who’s kind of replacing that candle for you? Like, who’s Are you just sort of supplying the candle out of your own pocket? You know, is this pace that you’re doing right now sustainable? Like, is this a, you know, maybe you used to read your daughter bedtime stories every night, and now you can’t, because you’re consistently on meetings that are, like, running over into those bedtime stories. So now there’s that continuity that you used to have, like, like work would pause or end at this time so that I could do this thing that makes me feel like the kind of person I want to be. But I don’t have that anymore, because this is sort of and if that happens once in a while, okay, but if that’s happening now, that’s kind of the new, you know, like, continuity is a good thing, unless, like, the relationship is bad. If it’s just this relationship consistently sucks, then that’s also like, so, you know, taking this kind of inventory, like. Kind of in the same way that we would evaluate any other relationship that we have in our lives, like, and when you’re going through, like, a bad time with your spouse, like, that’s a good opportunity to be like, to kind of reaffirm, like, what are we doing here together? Like, what’s the project here? Like, why are we together? And hopefully the answer is that, like, oh, because of, like, we’re better together in the love and so forth. But like, I mean, hard times also, like, lead to divorces as well. And you know, if you’re going through a hard time at work, that’s a good time to be like, you know, to really kind of reflect on that and say, well, like, were there good times, though? And let’s say I get to this promised land of the vacation, or whatever, is that actually going to be like, good
25:53
you know? Is that worth it?
Kim Bohr 25:56
I think what I really appreciate about how you frame this is, you know, there’s these, four really important elements that absolutely, you know, we could have those, as you said, and it may be a negative aspect of it. And what I like the way that, how you frame this around your continuity, reciprocity, purpose and hope, is that we it’s a great way to to, as you said, do a self check around it, and also realize that we have to bring we have to it’s not all, all on our employers to provide it, right? It should be mutually brought into these working relationships around where do I find this and how you know, and what do they provide for me that makes us a really healthy dynamic in the work we do at Spark effect, we’re really these are elements that, although not coined in the way that you phrased them here, absolutely are in play when we’re talking about the team dynamics and misalignment within teams, and the work we do to help those teams figure that out, so that they can absolutely get to a better place that’s more productivity, and, you know, eliminate the noise and the distractions, and the same when we’re working with the, you know, the executive teams and the executive coaching we do, because so much of these, perhaps patterns, and in this case, you know, we’re talking about their rival fallacy, but these patterns that have gone on for so long that maybe we don’t even know we’re in them, because we’ve been in them for so long, is something that’s really disruptive to teams and to as you point out, to our personal lives as well. You know some a couple other just stats I want to just bring in to the conversation. Was one of the other elements of the Gallup poll said that employees who are actively engaged are less likely to be actively looking or open to new job opportunities. In fact, low engagement teams typically endure turnover rates that are 18 to 43% higher than highly engaged teams. And I think so much of what your research has seen and that we’ve seen play out inside spark effect is that these four elements are really important to how people are thinking about engagement, and you know their purpose and the connection. The other set I found really interesting by the American state of the American manager report, was that managers account for at least 70% of the variance in employee engagement scores, and that goes to the, you know, what so many of us heard around people leave because of their managers and things. And I think what why I find those so relevant to our conversation is around the reality that we’ve got to look at ourselves and the what are the patterns that we are bringing into our workplace every day that perhaps could be contributing to the to the poor performance of our teams or organization, that maybe were not taking into consideration from a real, honest, self reflective standpoint. And when you and I talked about having this conversation, one of the things that were so intriguing to both of us was that so often, even from the perspective of a new year comes around and so many of us reset from a perspective of, what am I going to do different? What are the goals I’m going to set for this year? Some people still think about, you know, resolutions and things like that. In reality, there’s unless we’re thinking about reframing around what it means, around this arrival fallacy and how we’re thinking about our working relationships, we’re really going to continue to see the pattern of those, you know, those turn of the year rituals just continue to fall apart or continued, and then we’re going to feel bad about it again, you know, in that pattern. So I think it’s really, you know, when we think about how to disrupt this, what are some of the things that you have found between, you know, the working relationships, the research, the what are some of those aspects of trying to disrupt? Yeah. The Arrival fallacy, patterns and thinking,
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 30:04
I think that, you know, one of the big ones, and this is for the arrival I think this is kind of one of my big takeaways, is, and this is, I think applies to the arrival fallacy, but it also applies more broadly, is that sometimes relationships just don’t work out. Like, sometimes it’s just borked from the very beginning, and you can’t, there’s nothing you can really do about it. Like, not everybody is going to be a good match all the time. And, you know, these there is kind of this, almost, like, I don’t know, almost destructive optimism of like, engagement and, you know, you know, kind of Oh, and employer, you know, net promoter, score and things like that, where it’s like, oh, like, and if, oh, what if we talk, if you like, if you encourage employees, For example, to really consider their relationship to work. One of the outcomes of that might be that they realize that they’re not actually a good fit for this, and they leave. And I think that you have to be brave enough to, like, deal with that, like, if you really want to have like, an open, honest relationship with like your employees in the same way that you would hopefully have like an open, honest relationship. You know, if, like, you’re not open and honest with your spouse because they’re afraid you’ll they’ll leave, like, then you don’t really have like, a good relationship with your spouse. Like, sorry. Like, that. Sucks to hear that. But like, you don’t, and if you are kind of constantly, you know, trying to hide stuff and make, you know, kind of obfuscate things. And so, you know, I don’t want my employees to think about that. I don’t want my employees to think about their that. Then it’s like, you might not have very good relationships. Like, you know, you might your place this place of work might not be cultivating very good relationships. Like, this idea that, like, oh, well, these engaged employees are more, are less likely to be on the job market. Well, kind of like, no shit. Like, of course, like, if they’re locked in, like, if you’re playing a video game, you really like, and you’re engaged, you’re less likely to not play the video game. Like, right? Like, yeah, yeah. So the idea that, like, if you’re actively bored playing the game, then you’re probably going to be, like, wandering, you know, your attention will wander. Like, of course, the question is, like, you know, well, how do we get more people to enjoy the game? It’s also the question you also have to bring into that is like, well, maybe the game is just not enjoyable to some people, right? Like, you know, different strokes for different folks kind of thing. And having to kind of be comfortable with the fact that, like, not every relationship is going to be a success. Some people are just not going to be a good fit. You’re not going to be a good fit for some people, some kinds of work you might really like, think that kind of work is cool, but like, you aren’t a good fit for it. Again, I the first research project I ever did was probably my favorite research project that I ever did. It was on funeral services in Japan, in sort of a small village, and sort of, how do people, kind of, how do people mourn death, and how do people sort of use a local institution of a Buddhist temple, which is much more like a funerary space than it is like a Buddhist space. How they use that space through kind of grieving, not only sort of personal disaster, but also collective disaster. I really, really like doing that research, and I got really super depressed, because all we ever did was talk about like death and dying and go to funerals. So I love the research. It wasn’t a good fit, like, long term, it wasn’t a good fit. And that just happens, and yeah, it’ll break your heart sometimes, that that kind of thing, yeah, like, you’re going to get your heart broken. That’s the way relationships work.
Kim Bohr 33:57
But so having that honest conversation with ourselves and thinking about, you know, if we have all the right elements that feel like we’ve got a healthy culture, it’s, you know, my, I’ve always had that philosophy that we’re all on this, you know, we all are in this career journey, and it, you know, we’re here at the moment for the reasons that align, and at some point that may not be the case, right? And so really, just being honest to say, It’s okay if there’s misalignment in the sense of, we all should want to have that feeling engaged and purposeful, and all of those really positive elements should be in play. And if it’s not here, it should be somewhere else and be okay with that. Yeah,
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 34:36
it’s really important. I’m always really skeptical of that sort of, well, people don’t leave bad jobs. They leave bad managers. It’s like, whoa. I don’t know, like, how much you ever quit a job because it was boring, like, because you didn’t like it? Like, it was just kind of like, this is
Kim Bohr 34:56
like, yeah, challenging enough. It’s not Yeah, those things, yeah. Well. Or,
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 35:00
like, I was, like, how many? But we don’t usually talk about, like, usually when we focus on, sort of the idea of attrition, we’re talking about sort of, I think it’s sort of the way we frame the question. We kind of frame the question as adversarial. Like, oh, you know, why did you walk away from this why’d you walk away from this employer? Like, they make it personal. And I don’t think that. I think that, you know, a lot of times like, I mean, yeah, work is personal, but it also it’s not necessarily personalities that drive us away from work. It’s not like, I don’t like the people I did research with in that village and everything. It was just like, you know, I mean, what do you say? Like, yeah. Like, I just don’t want to be constantly depressed all the time, yeah, the
Kim Bohr 35:50
feeling that you had, yeah, that it didn’t, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like, there are elements of that, just like the sentiment, like, how we settle with it, you know, and I think that goes back to the idea of, some of it was the, you know, the idea of the reciprocity to some degree, right, that the mutual benefit just wasn’t there. Wasn’t ill intended. It just wasn’t, it wasn’t there, right? Like, if you’re
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 36:19
running an accounting department, and you have one of your accountants, and they’re just chronically unhappy. They just always seem to be unhappy. And so you’re trying to do different things, and maybe you’re like, you bring them coffee, or you’re like, throw a pizza party, or you do, like, you buy one of those, like platforms where you like, send people little like, smiley faces to say, Oh, great job. You What if they just hate numbers? Like, what if they just, like, wound up in this job and they’re like, Yeah, you know, like, there’s nothing you can do about that, like, other than lead them to an honest conversation and say, Look, you know, maybe this job isn’t for you, because, like, if you hate numbers, then you’re in maybe the wrong place.
Kim Bohr 37:02
And you know that is, I, what comes to mind when you say that is, there’s an aspect of our business is supporting people through career transition moments, you know, out placement, type of services. And I, we have had conversations over the years with participants who have taken some of this change that has come upon them in a moment to really ask, what is it that I’m really wanting to do and that it’s been interesting to find people who’ve pursued a path because that’s what they were expected to do. And what they really wanted to do was, you know, be a professional landscaper, to bring design and creativity through, you know, a visual aspect of outdoor, you know, experience for people, it’s been really, we’ve had that. I remember somebody telling me about the conversation they had there, and I think it’s so bringing the moment to the back to this idea of working relationships and the stories we tell ourselves of Well, I just need to do this for this amount of time. I just need to do this to get through this. Really, what are we, you know, what are we stealing from ourselves and in? What are we doing to perhaps not be as aligned and honest with ourselves and our company, when we’re in that type of moment. One of the things I want to talk about that you and I had discussed a little bit was, where do these elements come into play in the arrival fallacy and you and you had a great analogy I loved around you. Think about the four elements as, you know, four legs of a chair, and how and when those really start to you if we’re if one of those key elements are really out of alignment, what is that, you know, do, and some of the in perhaps where we maybe over index on some of these elements, like hope. So I’d love to have you, you just kind of talk a little bit about that, because I think that’s really important for the for how we sometimes get caught in this trap. Yeah,
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 39:06
I mean, I think it does kind of come down to an element of balance, like, that’s, you know, like, our lives tend to be better when we’re balanced. Like, things tend to be better when they’re balanced. The question is, you know, balance isn’t sort of just like a passive thing. It’s also like an active thing, like we have to balance. And if you think about sort of the four elements, like the legs of a chair, like it’s really easy to balance on when you’ve got all four legs there, like you really don’t even need to balance that much. You just kind of get to sit on the chair and relax three legs too. Is like, okay, yeah. Like, this is, it’s okay. Like, you know, probably not that hard to balance on it, you know. Maybe you’ve got to be like, a little bit more, you know, aware of your situation. But when you start, like, sitting, like, can you balance and sit on a chair with two legs? Yeah, you can it suck. It’s like. It’s not going to be fun, yeah? Like, it’s not, you’re not going to be takes a lot of
Kim Bohr 40:03
energy, right? We think about it from that place of energy that we have to invest Yeah, more so than we would if we had all four of those. You’re going
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 40:11
to have to be balancing, yeah. And so if you’ve just got one, like, if you’re just like, Oh yeah, you know, like, you’re in the arrival fallacy, right? Where you’re like, oh my god, this is the work I’m doing is not sustainable, and I’m not being adequately compensated or rewarded for all of this hard work that I’m doing. And what is even the point of all of this? You know, it’s not even gonna make the client happy or make anything better, but I still have hope that, like, everything will be better. Like, yeah, you’re balancing, but like, you’re the core strength you must be exerting to, like, maintain that balance on that one legged stool, because all of the other legs have disappeared, like you’re just there. So yeah, you might be maintaining balance. You might be fine, and you might be able to do that over and over and over again. But like, understanding that, like, just because you succeeded this time, it still comes at a cost. And, you know, you’re fine until you’re not. And so the question is, then, well, why are you on a one legged stool? Like, if you’re if the whole point is, like, to sit comfortably, shouldn’t you, like, you know, aim for a more comfortable stool. And, yeah, I mean, there’s some people who are like, well, you know, the grind set, you know, and it got a hustle. It’s like, okay, fine, like, if that’s what you like to do. And, you know, I was 22 once, like, I’m sure that was, you know, I would hustle and grind and whatnot. But like, you know,
Kim Bohr 41:40
at what cost, right? I think that becomes the thing of what cost. I think that’s where what we’re finding in our society is impact on, you know, health and wellness, which directly correlates into the business world of productivity and indeed, of the bottom line results. And so it should be a concern for businesses around that. I think, you know, you and I have talked about, what are some of those behaviors and the stress indicators right when you’re trying to maintain, you know, at some point that you can’t do it for the long term. And that’s what it feels like when we get into these, these loops that people are it’s like, at some point, it’s like, this has been going off a really long time, and now I’m not even sure how to break it. And so I think what, you know, what perhaps, what we we should start to talk about a little bit, is about, how do we help people think about breaking it, you know, in ways. So I think, you know, you you mentioned a really important factor around this, the kind of, the self check, right? So thinking about those four elements of, where am I in that continuum, there’s a resource we’ll put in for the downloads that’ll help people do a self check around, not just those elements, but some other aspects that we’ve found maybe can help break this, you know, this cycle that many of us are in. You know, one things that is possible is thinking about and you alluded to this around, what are some sustainable practices? So what are some of those things that maybe people could do to help bring, you, know, bring more awareness. Do you have thoughts on that too, to kind of share some of those? Yeah.
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 43:11
I mean, I am a qualitative researcher by trade, so, I mean, I think that the best course is to have a conversation, and it’s conversations all the way down, like, from, yeah, so you got to start with yourself, and you have to be willing to have an honest conversation with yourself. And, yeah, like, if you’re like, a parent and or, you know, working a full time job and maintaining a house and etc, etc, and you’ve got other things that you want to do. Like, it’s really easy to not have a conversation with yourself. It’s really easy to but like, making time for yourself, to talk to yourself and really be like, oh, you know, like, Am I like, you know? I mean, it’s like, people say, like, Oh, I do the gratitude journaling and stuff like that, and that’s great. But like, also, do you ever, like, think about the things that you’re not grateful for, or things that you’re like, Man, I really can’t stand that. Like having sort of a multi sided conversation, like being willing to, sort of, like, look at the thing, kind of warts and all, and say, Well, you know, and then then, like, it kind of becomes a willingness to have conversations with the people that you’re in partnership with, you know, that could be, you know, like in a domestic situation, that’s your spouse, but like in a work situation, that’s, you know, colleagues and employers and stuff, and that’s a two way street, like, you’ve got to be willing to show up to that conversation, and they’ve got to be willing to show up to that conversation. And if they’re willing to show up to that conversation, you have to be willing to, like, be honest about it, if you sort of, you know, hide the truth. And you say, Oh, I actually, like, really love spreadsheets and you hate spreadsheets. So it’s like, well, what’s that person supposed to think? Right? Are they supposed. Like, somehow divine that you actually don’t like spreadsheets, but that you lied about it in that moment. Like, yeah. So I think that being willing to, I think it’s it comes down to having conversations, but specifically being open and being and having the courage to have conversations that are honest.
Kim Bohr 45:21
I love that absolutely with ourself and with others. Yeah, one of the things that I’ve also found in the work that we do at Spark effect and lots of data points that come through that work, is that I think part of what perpetuates this type of behavior in this pattern is our inability to create really strong boundaries, you know, and and I think that is for a multitude of reasons. I think a part, people worry that if they create a boundary, that they’re going to not, you know, they’re going to be thought ill. They’re going to be thought that they’re perhaps not a team player, right? Or they don’t really they’re not really committed, which is all you know, really not likely true, but it’s something that gets perpetuated. And without having the conversations like you said, we tell ourselves these stories that we start to believe, and then it starts to become fear driven, and then we just continue to have these patterns, and I’ve found that through some of these other data points in work, we do this nature of boundary setting, or people feeling comfortable to assert themselves in ways that allow for conversation to take place, is really dragging down The ability for people to be productive, for them to find this balance of these four elements. And it’s something that’s been really concerning to me. So one of the things that I would offer into our conversation is also around thinking about some tactical elements of creating space to give you know, to set boundaries to create an understanding to one of the very tactical tips that you know, I tell people, is when something’s coming another thing is coming on your plate, perhaps the response, instead of just saying yes and then feeling the burden of that with everything else that feels like this, such a Heavy list, is this idea of Yes, and so yes, I can get to that. And let’s talk about what else is on my plate, you know, we and we need to reprioritize, or yes, and the soonest I could do it is a timeline out, you know, the way. Or, I think what’s maybe even more personal for people is, you know, when you do, as you talked about, having, you know, personal commitments, having family, you know, yes, and I need to, it’ll be after I’ve had dinner with my family. And I think those things are reasonable. And yet I feel that people struggle to try, even try those things. And I hope that listeners will take away that as one of these, you know, these aspects of these tips, or in sustainable practices, to, you know, to consider,
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 48:08
I would say to that, like, let’s say, you know, using my example, like, I don’t do meetings at 630 Eastern Standard Time. Don’t do anything, because that’s when I read books to LC, that’s it. And it’s, like, sacrosanct, and that’s, I don’t protect it, and I, like, I’ll work on something after she goes to sleep. Like, sure, like, you know, if we’re, like, racing for a deadline. But like, yes, and, you know, yes, I will do that, and I will do it after I do, I do bedtime stories with Elsie. And, you know, you’ve got to have the courage. And I’ve had the courage to say to my employer, like, this is like, a non negotiable for me. Like I have this is a boundary that I need to have. Like, this is very important to me. Like, this is the one time out of the day where I know I’m going to feel like a dad, so you can’t, I will not work during that time. And you know, then it’s kind of the balls in their court, and they can make two choices. They can say yes and honor that. And then now you’ve learned something important about each other. You’ve learned that they’ll respect, you know, reasonable boundaries that you set, or they can say no and not respect it. And now you have also learned something important, which is that this is probably not a good relationship for you.
Kim Bohr 49:26
Absolutely. I love that that’s very, very important, you know, just to as we start to wrap up the you know, we talk about open communication, we talk about you trying to to have these aspects of, how do we build these relationships on a daily basis? Are there any things that you you know you bring forward there, either in, you know, the way you interact within your own organization today, or you know, what you found to be really successful that you would offer? Up to listeners to to try to help add to some of these aspects of what they might be able to try. Yeah,
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 50:07
and I mean, I would say this, I’ll kind of reiterate this point, and I’ll say this also as, like, a chronically introverted person, but like, nothing gets better unless you talk about it, like you got to talk about it. And if you know, if you really, really do not feel comfortable talking about it with your current group of people, that probably is an answer in of itself, to like you. It should. You should feel as a baseline, you should feel comfortable talking to the people you have relationships with about the nature of those relationships? Yes, very much. If you do not have if you do not feel comfortable having conversations, that’s a red flag. And at the same time, it’s totally okay if you don’t feel comfortable having conversations, just because you’re out of practice at it. So you know. And it’s really scary to do that first conversation. It’s really scary, like, particularly, if you’re like, conversations have really revolved around not being particularly honest, you know. And it’s like, yeah, we’ve all been there. We’ve all like, wanted to, like, get a job we weren’t totally qualified for. So, you know, like, it’s
Kim Bohr 51:19
different to stretch yourself and grow versus, you know, but to be like,
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 51:23
oh, yeah, I love like, it’s like, if I went to my employer and I was like, I love sinks, I like, I love client sinks, and I love sales meetings, I can’t stand that stuff. Like,
Kim Bohr 51:34
it’s not your nature, yeah, it’s not my thing. The right fit. I don’t want
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 51:37
to drive a bus, so I don’t want to drive a bus, so, but I’m not going to go and say to someone, I’m passionate about that kind of thing, but it’s hard to sort of open up and be honest with people if you’re not used to that, and particularly if you’re afraid that if you’re honest with people about your about the nature of your relationships, that they won’t want to be In those relationships anymore, and I would say that, yes, I totally understand that. And so then you have a choice to make. You can either test the authentic, authenticity of your relationships, or you cannot, and you will have to live with that one way or the other.
Kim Bohr 52:13
Yep, I totally agree with that. And I think that more often than not, the conversation will be welcomed and opened and the and I think what gets us all at different points is that we have the conversation in our heads, and we never get beyond that. And then we, you know, we because of all those stories we tell ourselves, and then we just continue to fall back into the pattern. And that’s not sustainable, as we talked about, I want to just give you a moment, because I realized as we dove in, I never gave you a chance to tell the audience around what’s an anthropologist doing, talking about working relationships inside a business organization. And I wanted to give you the ability to just kind of talk about, how do you bring that experience and the skill into the work that TSC does, and kind of that lens that I think is so different,
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 53:16
yeah. And I yeah, I appreciate it. I mean, I guess work is fundamentally human, until, like, I guess AI takes over, and we are in sort of a Skynet type situation. It’s, you know, work is fundamentally human, like work is full because work is full of humans. And if you know humans stop doing the work, then there would be no work. Like the work would cease to exist. So, you know, if anthropology is the study of sort of, why do humans do what they do, and why do they make the choices that they make, then I think that’s kind of well, why would an why wouldn’t an anthropologist want to study work? And I think that, you know, when it comes to these kind of topic of forming relationships, like it’s kind of relationships all the way down. So whether you’re you know, you know, you’re trying to attract people to your business, or you’re trying to retain the employees that you have, or you’re trying to attract customers, or retain customers or try to understand, you know, like, I mean, how many of you know listeners out there are currently struggling with, like, an ICP, like, Oh, who’s my ideal client? And like, if only we could know, like, what our customers want, and like, what your or sort of what prospects would want. Well, like you’ve talked to them like, if you just, you know, you if you’re a specialist in kind of going and talking to people and taking the results of those conversations and synthesizing them into observations about, you know, behavior and patterns more broadly, like I heard. Personally, I think that that’s a pretty useful, you know, that’s a pretty useful perspective. Like, yeah, you know, we can send out surveys all day long, and surveys are great for what they are, but like, you know, a lot of the problems that we encounter in the world of work are very squishy problems that aren’t super well suited to a survey. And so I feel like I kind of specialize in, like, like, the squishier the problem, the better. So if it’s like, you know, we have this thing, and we thought it was really cool, and nobody likes it, and we can’t figure it out. But then we sent out a survey, and everyone said, like, you know, somewhat or strongly agree, what would happen? Where’s the disconnect? It’s like, Whoa. That’s because there were humans, because humans are contradictory creatures, and we do all sorts of weird stuff. So hire somebody who’s a specialist in that weirdness. And that’s why I think TSC hired an anthropologist, because the world of work is weird, and so you need to kind of approach it in its in, like, celebrate its weirdness, instead of trying to, like, how do we parse out the weirdness and say, Oh, because it’s, it’s not like, yeah, hot and dry, it’s actually, it’s very much the opposite. People are weird, and that’s what makes people great. How weird we are. That’s what I think creates opportunity for people, that fact that we’re weird, and I
Kim Bohr 56:20
agree. And you know, the reality, like you said with AI, we’re still going to need people, and we need to understand how we work with all this technology that’s flooding into our work and the work you do. And you know, this discussion we’ve had today, I think, is just an example of why this human connection and the working relationships are still so important to maintain and to invest in. Yeah. I
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 56:51
mean, even if AI replaced all of the computer based work and we all just were like, Oh, I guess Screw this. Let’s go back to living in the caves and hunting mammoths. Well, then there would be jobs for that. And I guess we would still, you know, we would probably want to think about our working relationship, like, Well, do you like hunting mammoths or not? Like, yeah, it seems like you could also go gather berries instead, if you wanted to. Like, yep. So it’s
Kim Bohr 57:16
Yeah. So it’s like, this is so it’s important, right? And it’s important right? And it’s important that we’re having this conversation. And I hope for our listeners, what they’ve been able to take away today is realization of, perhaps, if they’re in this pattern, that they’ve got an opportunity to break it. And you know, we we mentioned some of the tips that you know are ways to start, we’ll have more in the resources. So as we close out. Is there any final thoughts that you want to be to leave everybody with that you’ve want to reinforce, or perhaps just didn’t get a chance to share yet?
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 57:50
Yeah, I mean, I would say that, you know, we’re coming up on a holiday. You know, a lot of us will have some opportunity to, like, you know, it will be busy for sure, but though a lot of us will have some opportunity to maybe not do the same work schedule that we are doing, like, take like, take the time to have a conversation with yourselves. Like, you know, maybe you’ll find that you actually really do like, everything that you’re doing, and that your relationship to work is great, and then great. Well, now you’ve confirmed that. Now you did the research and you confirmed your results. You validated it, right? You know, the worst thing that can happen is that you that you discover there might be a route to be happier. So I would say, if there’s one thing that you do, just, you know, do I like what I’m doing? Do? Do I feel like it’s it has that continuity? Do I feel like it’s reciprocal? Does, is it purposeful? And does it like fill my life with hope? And if the answer is no to any of those questions, you know, that’s kind of a second order thing to start working on, but like starting the conversation with yourself, like that’s, I think it’s got to start somewhere. And so that’s what I would say, is, if it hasn’t already started for you, start it. I
Kim Bohr 59:06
love that. Start it, for sure. So thank you so much. Aaron, you know, I want to just again, remind everybody that we will have some free resources that are very relevant to our conversation. Today you’ll be able to download by visiting the courage to advance podcast.com and all of these resources are very aligned with this conversation. They’re actionable. They’re exercises and tools that are designed to really not just inspire you, but really move you forward into starting something different. So we encourage you to check those out, and additionally, you’ll find links to the research we’ve mentioned today, to Aaron’s book, and to all the other components that maybe you want to go dig a little bit deeper in. And so again, thank you, Aaron, for sharing your insights. I want to also thank the empathy edge for hosting our podcast sub series and to the listeners for tuning in to this episode of courage to advance. US, and I want to just really remind everybody that this is the place where Transformative Leadership isn’t just about having all the answers, but it’s about having the courage to find them. Thank you. We look forward to having you tune into the next
Aaron Delgaty, PhD 1:00:13
episode. Thank you so much
Maria Ross 1:00:16
for more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice. Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
