Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Courage to Advance: KPIs Don’t Tell the Whole Story: Why Your CEO Evaluation Is Falling Short

Welcome to Courage to Advance, hosted by Kim Bohr and brought to you by SparkEffect, in partnership with The Empathy Edge.

Tune in to our subseries every 3rd Thursday, right here on The Empathy Edge! Or check us out at www.CourageToAdvancePodcast.com.

In this episode, we dive deep into the often oversimplified process of CEO evaluations. We explore why boards need to look beyond traditional metrics and uncover common blindspots in CEO assessments. We’ll discuss the limitations of relying solely on KPIs and how to integrate both quantitative and qualitative measures to evaluate not just what a CEO achieves but how they lead. We’ll examine how robust CEO evaluations impact critical board responsibilities like compensation and succession planning. The conversation will also touch on incorporating empathy and emotional intelligence into assessments. Finally, we’ll reveal how well-designed evaluations can drive alignment between the board and CEO, fostering a culture of trust and continuous improvement. Join us as we uncover how to truly assess leadership effectiveness and drive organizational success through comprehensive CEO evaluations.

To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

  • Having a relationship and building trust with some board members can create a safe space for the CEO, which can often be lonely. 
  • Soft skills are the essential skills. It doesn’t matter what your organization does, these are vital skills in understanding the inputs and outputs to create success within any organization. 
  • Data only matters if you can translate and interpret it into something useful and actionable.
  • While hitting the “whats” is important, the “hows” of getting to those “whats” are equally as important. 

“When we talk about sustainable organizations, and the ability for organizations to grow, just hitting the numbers isn’t going to guarantee success. It’s important, but it isn’t the whole story.”

—  Sandy Stelling, VP of Strategy, Analytics, and Transformation, Alaska Airlines

From Our Partner:

SparkEffect partners with organizations to unlock the full potential of their greatest asset: their people. SparkEffect helps organizations manage change, sustain growth, and chart a path to a brighter future through their tailored assessments and expert coaching at every level.

Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.

About Sandy Stelling, VP of Strategy, Analytics, and Transformation, Alaska Airlines

Sandy most recently served as the Vice President of Strategy, Analytics, and Transformation at Alaska Airlines. A Pacific Northwest aviation leader for over 30 years, she drives change using her experience in engineering, technology, team dynamics, and process performance. She has been recognized for her collaborative, always curious, direct leadership style. Sandy believes deeply in building capability and creating capacity with individuals and teams. Her track record of building trust and coaching teams, leading through challenges and crises, and delivering financial results bring valuable perspectives to the boardroom. Sandy holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering from Lehigh University. She currently holds leadership roles on several non-profit boards.

Connect with Sandy Stelling:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sandy-stelling-1984501

Connect with Kim Bohr and SparkEffect

SparkEffect: sparkeffect.com

Courage to Advance recording and resources:

CourageToAdvancePodcast.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/sparkeffect

LinkedIn for Kim Bohr: linkedin.com/in/kimbohr

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Hi. Welcome to month one of a 12 month podcast takeover here on the empathy edge. Don’t be scared. Every Third Thursday you are going to get to enjoy courage to advance a podcast sub series brought to you by the great folks at Spark effect. It’s hosted by their coo Kim bore, and in this podcast series, they’re going to explore ways that we can marry technology and data with the human element in order to achieve our objectives and measurable business success. And our work is so closely aligned. Kim and I have been colleagues for a very long time, and this episode, especially, I’m excited about to kick off called KPIs. Don’t tell the whole story why your CEO evaluation is falling short. We talk about empathy on this show. We talk about the need for self awareness and professional development. But who is evaluating your CEO and with what guidelines, with what metrics. So today, Kim and her fantastic guest are going to delve into this topic, and again, you’ll get to tune into the sub series every third Thursday, right here on the empathy edge. You can also check them out at their home, which is courage to advance podcast.com this is a great one. Take a listen.

Kim Bohr  02:04

Welcome to courage to advance the leadership and transformation podcast. I’m your host, Kim bore, and I’m joined today by Sandy Stelling to discuss how KPIs don’t tell the whole story and why your co valuation is falling short. So before we jump in, I want our listeners to learn more about our fabulous guests today, Sandy is most recently served as the vice president of strategy, analytics and transformation Alaska Airlines at Pacific Northwest aviation leader for over 30 years. She drives change using her experience in Engineering Technology, team dynamics and process performance. She’s been recognized for her highly collaborative, always curious, direct leadership style and Sandy believes deeply in building capability and creating capacity with individuals and teams. Her track record for building trust and coaching teams, leading through challenges and crisis and delivering financial results bring valuable perspectives to the boardroom. Sandy holds a Bachelor of Science degree in mechanical engineering from Lehigh University, and she currently holds leadership roles on several nonprofit boards, which makes her an excellent guest for us today. Sandy, welcome to the courage to advance podcast.

Sandy Stelling  03:24

Thanks, Kim, happy to be here.

Kim Bohr  03:26

So you and I are have talked a little bit about this as we got ready for our conversation today. And really, where I think it’s the best place for us to start for our listeners is really to talk a little bit about the role of a board member and the role in evaluating the CEO, and what does that look like from your experience?

Sandy Stelling  03:53

Sure. So if I think back to when I first joined a nonprofit board, I think the simplistic view was always your responsibility as a board as a board member, is to ensure that the organization delivers financially and has financial health, and that also goes hand in hand with like advocacy and philanthropy. And so in the nonprofit world, it was really like the KPIs were the dollars and cents at the business of the organization and its ability to earn money and fund their mission and keep the work going. And I think just like with any for profit business, the words changed, the game has changed, and that isn’t enough anymore, which can sound daunting, but, but I think the fact is, it’s not enough anymore. And when we talk about sustainable organizations, and the ability for organizations to grow, just hitting the numbers isn’t going to guarantee success, it’s important, but it isn’t the whole story.

Kim Bohr  04:53

And how does that shift? You know, shift the responsibility of the. The the board members, and what their role is often seen to, to have. Well, I

Sandy Stelling  05:09

think what I found working with different CEOs or leadership team these organizations is there’s always the conversation about the what we’re going to do, the goals we’re going to set, what we’re going to achieve, you know, how we’re going to grow the organization or have greater impact. But I think what really has come to the forefront are the human dynamics that are at play when that’s happening. Because to that can it’s in my personal perspective, I think it’s more of a guarantee of success or not. Is because if you have strong teams, they can achieve anything. But if you have dysfunction within teams, or you have personality clashes, or style clashes, or just lack of good communication, or whatever those human dynamics are, that can be a non starter, right, and can really get in the way of achieving a lot of what you’re going after. And

Kim Bohr  05:59

how is that you do you see that as creating more risk inside from the board’s point of view of how they’re viewing what’s going on, can you speak a little bit from the

Sandy Stelling  06:10

audience as well? I would say at the at the worst case, you go, Okay, if you have, and I, you know, I’ve, probably, I’ve had the opportunity to be a board member in the gamut, when things were great, when things were not so great, and in not so great, I think what happens is it actually pulls the whole organization down. And can end up even pulling some board members into it, because different people will reach out to the board members that they have a good relationship with, people that they trust, and then all of a sudden you’re creating a little bit of chaos in how the organization is intended to run, when really the board is typically, in my experience working directly with the CEO, definitely has interactions with the leadership team, but the board’s responsibility is to ensure the performance of the CEO, and then that CEO has to extend down and get results with the organization. So what I’ve seen happen is, when it’s working well, right, then the board’s job becomes super easy in some ways, right? Because you’re coaching, you’re supporting, you may be asking challenging questions just to mitigate and manage any risks that you may be aware of because of the experience you bring to the board. But the team is working holistic, is working together, and a lot of that diversity of thoughts coming out organically within the team, within the leadership team of the organization, when it’s a little bit fractured, or there’s some other kind of stress or tension in the system, I think what happens is the conversations are different because now they’re about team dynamics and less about the work that we’re trying to get accomplished, right, right, and trying to wade through some other problems. So as much as you want to say, as a board member, it’s not your responsibility. When you talk about the sustainability and the risk and success of an organization, you do have to have a little bit of a lens into the culture and the dynamics of how they’re have, how people are working together or not working together, because that’ll start to send up signals if things are really off track, or if something is at risk of going off track,

Kim Bohr  08:04

that makes a lot of sense. And so when you you know a moment ago, you were speaking about how the landscape has changed, and that looking at these financial metrics isn’t enough alone. So can you speak to that lens of how the layering of more of the empathy and the emotional intelligence lens has come into play, into the board’s, you know, role of taking in that level of data as well. Yeah,

Sandy Stelling  08:32

you know, whether it’s depending on the size of the board, the CEO will have different depths of relationship with different board members, so for a period of time, you know, I was in a leadership role. I was a chair of a board, and working with the CEO of the board, I think one thing is to really build trust, because what I would recognize, and even in my, in my professional career, working directly for the CEO company, that’s like the loneliest job out there, yes, and probably a reason. It’s not for me, but I can see why, but I do think it’s a tough it’s a tough place to be, and I think having a relationship with some board members that recognize that, that can acknowledge that, that can create a safe space for a CEO, I felt that that was really important and part of my responsibility, so that they had a place to turn. They had somewhere to go to talk about what was on their mind and and so I think I naturally leave that way and the roles that I held. And so I carried that into my work as a board member. And I think that unlocked some things, some conversations, some relationships, some trust. It allowed the seat I saw the CEO and even other members of the team feel not comfortable but capable of being vulnerable or otherwise. Maybe they felt like, you know, we don’t want the board to know, we’ll just keep it you know, it’s like, no, we’re actually all on the same team, right? And then vulnerability. Quality is huge to unlock that, yes, and so I think that that’s and that, to me, is a big E to growth, right? If you can be vulnerable together, then you can actually discover, and I think, explore growth that otherwise wouldn’t be available to you.

Kim Bohr  10:19

I love that that’s so important. And I think that’s, you know, I think we’ve come a long way in our our journey of of leadership understanding, to recognize that now there’s strength in this under I’ve been bringing in vulnerability and empathy and, you know, EQ, and all of these things that perhaps were not seen as as important. I

Sandy Stelling  10:47

think a phrase I’ve used is, I, you know, over our career lifetimes, we’ve heard it. These are the soft skills, like you have technical hard skills. You know how to execute your job. You can, you know, balance the budget and deliver the results, and all the KPIs can happen. And people would then refer to this other stuff that we’re talking about as the soft skills. And I argue that till the cows come home, because I’m like, those are the essential skills. Yes, I love that. Then it’s, it’s irregardless of what the mission is, what the work is, what the job or task at hand is, if you can’t navigate with these essential skills, you’re kind of going to be you’re going to be stuck, it’s going to be murder.

Kim Bohr  11:21

Yes, these essential skills are the they’re the foundation. And that’s what we’ve talked about, the you know, the inputs to understand the outputs. Because at some point you could have a CEO with fantastic metrics, and if the inputs and the dynamics inside the organization are really toxic, there’s going to be a cliff for those metrics that performance won’t really, in most cases, be able to sustain, and the turnover and the disconnect of the leadership teams and things really starts to become apparent. And

Sandy Stelling  11:57

I think that’s where the board has has a role not to get involved in it, not to solve some of those dynamics like that’s not our place, but it is to be listening for, observing for because our primary responsibility is to help manage risk to the organization right in its current year and future years. And so if you know, and what everybody wants in an organization is, you know, risk that’s well managed and predictable outcomes and you achieve your goals, and you know it’s all just worked great. But I think as a board, then the biggest responsibility we have is to be able to from a removed space, again, not in the day to day, observe and listen for things that are risk. And it’s not always evident just in the numbers,

Kim Bohr  12:44

right, right? That loan doesn’t tell the whole story.

Sandy Stelling  12:48

It doesn’t tell the whole story. And so it’s understanding to your point, what was the process that got us that number, and what’s the collateral damage that maybe was incurred to get there? Right? Is that tolerable or sustainable? And what could be the downstream consequences of that kind of behaviors?

Kim Bohr  13:07

And I think for many of us, we think of it as followership, right? So gaining, you know, building followership is a skill, and when you think about the this inputs that bring in to play so many of these really important skills that CEOs and leaders need to have that’s such an important factor to that input of what what we’re going to look at and and the other end of it. So just to to pause for a moment and to make sure our listeners are clear on what we’re thinking about when we talk about CEO evaluations, there is a gamut of how this is done. For many organizations. It’s where we started off by saying that, you know, perhaps just the hard numbers, the hard KPIs, the HARD goals are the are the way it’s done and and for many listing, maybe they don’t realize this other idea is actually really prominent, and really is a more complete view than perhaps this those traditional way alone. And so we’re not advocating to throw that out. Of course, that is key. We’re advocating to expand it, to make it more comprehensive in a way that’s so beneficial and in the work that you we’ve both experienced before, that could look like 360s with key layers in the organization, including board members. It can look at interview conversations that are looking for trends and things like that. And I think one of the things that we find in the work is that data is key, and so the way we approach looking at these, this expanded, more complete view, is. Still a very much a data driven approach. I wonder if you could speak to a little bit of of how that data driven approach can, in fact, occur in these areas of skills that we’re talking about that maybe yet, are these now what we think of as essential skills? Yeah,

Sandy Stelling  15:16

well, I think that. So first of all, the data is still important. I’m not going to throw out the data here, like right? And the data has served well, especially over years, if you’re working with the same CEO, and there’s, you know, there’s some over time, you can see trends or movement, but like, even, again, in my professional life, when you got data and and honestly, working at an airline, we’re rich in data, but data is only useful if you can actually translate it into information. And so that’s where all the nuance of complexity live, right? So, and that, I think, is where the interviews and some of the written feedback and some of the more qualitative insights come from. You know, help interpret the data, because the data is you Okay, on a 05 scale, you’re getting all fives or all fives, but one, two, well, I’m curious about the two, right? Actually, the two alone is, it’s interesting, but it doesn’t tell me anything, right? So how do we then follow up with conversations to learn what that two is actually telling us? Because that’s where the improvement, the growth and the change is going to come from right? Otherwise, because the flip side of that is it’s very easy if the data is not coming with insights and information that you connect on. It’s easy to accept it when it’s good and it’s easy to dismiss it when it’s bad, right? And so you need and people are complex. So Kim, you’re a five, and you’re like, that’s interesting, but it tells you nothing, right? So we have to try. We have to get deeper into what are we learning? You know, what does this process? And we have a more comprehensive process that involves a 360 as you mentioned, we have conversations a subset of board members that work, you know, with our partners to figure out, like, the people who help us collect the data, to understand, like, what’s actually happening, and how do we take all of this information, not just data, and have constructive conversations that will not only support the CEO, but in turn, then support the organization, because that’s what as a board, we’re really trying to do, is ensure we have the right leader, leading in a way that’s going to grow, you know, support the organization the way that we intend them to. But it, it is. I find data it’s very easy to be like we’re data driven, only if you could turn it into something useful and actionable, right? Otherwise, you’re just data drowning, right? I think that that’s, you know, that would be easy to say, like, well, we have a process, and we collect data and then we hang it on the fridge. I mean, I don’t you have to do something with it. You interpret it in ways that become actionable. And

Kim Bohr  17:52

I think one of the things that stood out to what you were just saying, too, is that longitudinal view, right, the view of the cons and the and the consistency. So could you speak to where that consistency comes, how critical it is from not just the the process, but the the board being on the same page, you know, around how everybody’s going to view what the inputs are. I’d love to hear a little bit more about that. Yeah,

Sandy Stelling  18:21

I, you know one thing I think that’s bringing this more to the forefront and maybe a conversation is, I think in, you know, in the for profit world, right, leadership is changing as well, right? So even board members who now serve on nonprofits are coming from different experiences than maybe were had in the workplace 30 years ago, 20 years ago, even 10 years ago. And a lot of this, I think, has been accelerated with covid, to be honest, with the pandemic, because there were so many things that happened in 2020 2122 that really required leaders to lead differently. And I think that, you know, and it was like a step change, because all of a sudden, and I don’t mean this disrespectfully, but you had to care about your employees in a whole new way, right? And the people you lead needed things in a whole different way. So the needs were different, the climate was everything was different. So we’re longitudinal is interesting. So we go back to that. Is you can see, you can see progress. You may also then spot like setbacks. But even if you like, if something slides backwards, let’s just say that numbers go the other way. It allows you to have a conversation, to understand what was going on, and it allows for that if you have trust and vulnerability and the ability and empathy and the ability to have these conversations, it’s you can actually move through it, I would say more quickly, because you’re able to, like, have that safe space conversation and say, hey, you know what happened here? Well, this is what was going on. Oh, well, that makes sense. And then you can acknowledge that was a hiccup, or that’s a red flag, or that’s a blind spot, or. That is actually, that’s a pattern they’re seeing. And what does that mean, you know? And you’re able to have a conversation that is growth oriented and not like, penalizing, if that makes it that’s like, right? But it’s not to be like, you’re bad it’s like, well, this is interesting, right? And nobody wants to do a bad job Exactly, exactly.

Kim Bohr  20:19

I think, you know, I love that you talk about being growth oriented, because that’s like even, I think there’s a mis perception that when somebody becomes a CEO, they’ve hit their pinnacle, and they don’t either think they need to grow, or people don’t think they need to grow, and of course, they need to grow. We all need to grow in our different levels. It changes, and that type of feedback is really critical, as you said earlier, it’s pretty lonely and there’s a lot less feedback when you’re getting further up into the leadership roles. I think the other thing I want to just call out that you said was just so important too, is that during those years of our pandemic life, and where every the needs that we all had became so much more of a focus in ways that even maybe, maybe many of us seem to realize needed to be that hasn’t gone away. I you know. And so the as we move forward into, you know, our business of the future, the needs that people have are still there, and there’s and so it’s not like we traded those back off to, you know, to not having as much. And I think that is really it makes the stakes even higher for a CEO and a board in trying to make sure that’s being viewed as part of these inputs as well. I’d love for you to to share, you know, a story, if you have one that really can perhaps talk about the you know, gaining trust and alignment, you know, with a CEO when you’ve either brought the idea of this level of a depth to that person, or perhaps just the results. And how have the results you know, gained more of that is if you have something that you can share with the listeners. Well, I

Sandy Stelling  22:04

yeah, I think that I remember when we were engaged in a CEO evaluation process and working with the CEO, the one conversation that always comes to mind was, and again, we all come from different backgrounds and different experiences, right? But as those few board members who work on this process were discussing and preparing for the evaluation conversation, we kept coming back to the organization led by the CEO is hitting all the numbers like, check, check, check, check, check, but we also knew first hand accounts. You know, witness engage with stories that we heard, conversations that we had conversations with the CEO, that there was, there was some turmoil happening, and that became concerning as a board member of like, so they hit the numbers. And I think you mentioned it earlier, but I’m not confident. I want to be, but I’m not sure I can be confident they’re going to hit them again next year or to the next year, unless this turmoil is somehow addressed. And the conversation, which I think kind of stopped us all in our tracks, was so the what’s are good, but the how is a little concerning, and I think that they’re both equally important sustainability for the organization, right? And, and if you’re going to do the same thing day after day, year after year, maybe some of that could, like, could could exist, right? Because you’re just going to produce, you’re just going to, you know, bang out the same numbers, right? But that isn’t the way the world works. So how do you have the dynamics in play and the the human dynamics in play that can be nimble enough and adaptive enough to work together when these things are shifting and changing? And we kind of joke, a number of the board members and I have joked about like, it seems like every year there’s like, a thing and, you know, and like, so what? What’s the thing for this year. And there’s usually, there’s a, I wouldn’t say, like an existential crisis, but there is some sort of event or something that happens that makes the organization, like, pause and say, Okay, wait a second. We have to shift resources. We have to shift direction, we have to pull back. We have to something’s happening, right? And I think that’s true for any organization, right, that something happens, yeah, and if you don’t have and again, this is my perspective, if you don’t have the leadership in place and the team working together, it’s really hard to then make those shifts and adapt without losing your footing, right, without losing some footing. And I that’s so I think that when we worked so this, so when we were having the conversation of, yes, you hit all of the what’s the goals? You achieve? The goal or you missed one or two, fine, but you majority hit all the goals. But we want to have a conversation about how you got there, and some of the concerns we see as a board. And it wasn’t again. Wasn’t your bad person. That’s not it. We’re concerned about the health of the organization, being able to sustain the progress, to deliver results year after year after year, and that’s our responsibility, and that’s where our concern was showing up was. And I think that was the beginning of what has been a good multi year conversation and relationship of how one we’re there because we support, we believe, you know, we have confidence, but we want to support also some like adjustments, little adjustments here and there to make the organization stronger. And how can we be resources to help him, help amor, her

Kim Bohr  25:37

do that. And so it sounds like, in that scenario, that information was received as a supportive delivery, you know, as as, not a, you know, punitive, as you said, but more of this. Okay, I’ve got support to help figure this out.

Sandy Stelling  25:55

I mean, I think it’s a, it’s a, I think what also happens as a CEO, having worked with several of them. Part of the reason I think the role becomes lonely is every a lot of what you hear has also been thoroughly filtered by the time it gets to you. So, yeah. So the question is, do you have an environment, or do you have a few safe places you can go to have like the let your hair down, the conversation like the real, yeah, to the real, real. And I think that’s, that’s the level of trust. I think I felt that we created, I think that we have with, you know, a handful of board members that can just really let the hair down and say this is real, and the CEO can feel like that’s a safe space, and that conversations are confidential, and we’re there because we have their back, right? And it’s because we, along with the CEO, believe in the mission and the goals of the organization, and we’re that’s what this is about. This isn’t about you’re a good person. You’re a bad person. You’re, you know, do more of this. That’s tactics underneath the cause. And everyone I’ve worked with in nonprofit. It’s so such mission driven work. I mean, I’m just fortunate to work for a public company that was also very mission driven. So it’s sort of, it’s in my DNA is, anyway, worked out good alignment there. But I think that that you know definitely in nonprofit, people who go work for nonprofits, is because they believe deeply in the mission, and always coming back to that, I think is a really helpful way to open those conversations up and make more safe spaces to explore what can be adjusted or adapted for better performance.

Kim Bohr  27:29

I think that’s so important. And so I want to just explore a little bit further on the board and the board itself needing to align within itself as to how we’re going to take in this type of data, or how we’re going to find consistency year over year. So you spoke to you know, knowing that we’ve adopted a specific process and knowing things like that. But how do you navigate the reality that board roles evolve? There’s terms to them, and people you know typically are moving through and and so how, what kind of conversations are happening in those smaller, you know, teams of the board around, how are we going to commit to this and be consistent? And knowing that we’re, you know, we’re only holding these positions for so long. Is there anything you can can speak to there?

Sandy Stelling  28:18

I think that, you know, I’m very process oriented. I’m very I’m an engineer, you know, unapologetically, but I think that my mindset works in a way. And I’m not unique in this, but there are others on the board who share this is we want to we’re also responsible to ensure our processes support sustainability of the organization. And right? So not just the organization like CEO on down is going to be sustainable. We have to make sure that the board functions in an ongoing, effective way as well. And so I think we’ve collectively made a commitment like to in some way, like document these processes, shared them, onboard people, transitioning so it isn’t just handing over a playbook to someone else and be like, good luck. And so that’s one part of it. I think the other thing that we’ve been the folks, the other board members, I’ve had the privilege to work with, I think we’ve also be aligned and committed to continuous improvement. And so even every year, we may follow essentially the same process every year. We’re also going maybe we, could we do this different now, like maybe we should adjust how we did this. We did this last year, but we knew it wasn’t you’re not going to get perfect, but you can continue to get better. And I think always having that maybe it’s the growth orientation that if we want to continue to serve our CEO Well, we have to make sure that we’re continuing to reflect on our process and improve it, and, you know, take the feedback and continue to work it, because that is also going to serve Him and the organization, him or her and the organization well. And

Kim Bohr  29:52

where does that trans it sounds like some of that transparency. Do you advocate for some of that? Hey, how we, how we as a board, were thinking? About this to translate into a conversation with the CEO and in kind of the how, maybe how the thinking has evolved. Yeah, I

Sandy Stelling  30:09

you know, we’re very transparent. I mean, first of all, we’re fortunate to have a CEO who’s incredibly transparent. So, you know, our CEO is very comfortable sharing the results with the full board and and I think those conversations are helpful, because anyone who takes, you know, does an evaluation, takes survey, wants to know that, like, someone’s looking at the results, and then someone’s gonna take action on the results, right? Like, what’s the number one issue with employee surveys that companies I take the employee survey, everybody doesn’t think about it, right? That’s like, all the time, right? And so I think having the transparency of, like, here’s what we said, and then he, he or she also, like, CEO, our CEO, again, very transparent, shares their goals based on the prior year’s evaluation and what we’re setting up, not only with the board, but with their team, right? So again, we’re all in this together. Yes, right? And it creates a space. It creates a space of accountability, but it also creates a support system, because now everyone knows what they’re trying to do and is in a position to help them. Me

Kim Bohr  31:13

love that. So if you were, you know, giving advice to somebody who was, you know, a board member out there and our listeners and wants to really open up this conversation with a CEO or an executive director around let’s look at this in a more expanded view. Let’s, let’s be inclusive of what we do today. And here’s where we want to, you know, where we think there’s more opportunity. How, what would you advise them in approaching that conversation? Perhaps some of the things you would say, have them, you know, suggest they say, Yeah, I

Sandy Stelling  31:51

so I tend to use, like, um, pretty plain language that creates images, right? Just like, you know. So I would be like, let’s say they have historically been measured on what they achieve, right? The numbers, the KPIs, I would start having, I wouldn’t be like, let’s go get a big survey, and let’s get a third party and let’s go do this, because all of a sudden the CEO is going to feel threat, right? I would imagine that will be, that’s how probably I would respond. If everyone’s like, we’re going to you, I would, I would probably respond as like, threat alert, what’s going on. And I would be so paranoid. Be like, what did I do wrong? Right? That’s who I would be, like, what? But I do think that opening a conversation of always getting better and having conversations about some of the things, I think the examples of challenges that were recently faced, right, especially when it comes to, like, human dynamics, interactions, Team stuff, employees, whatever it is, yeah, being able to point to those and say, you know, and some of them would be let then lead the story, right? They had. They’re going to tell a story of, like, working with one of their leaders and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever the issue is, okay. How would you like to handle that different? And maybe that’s part of what we want to bring into the evaluation, is how you handle difficult conversations. I’m oversimplifying, but Right? Something like that, but some of those kinds of dynamics, but I think letting the CEO tell stories of where they’re struggled, which, again, you have to have trust and vulnerability and be able to have that and then look at ways to expand the evaluation, to start to surface some of those kinds of behaviors, is probably the way I would approach stepping into it, as opposed to, Like, bringing in the program. Yes, feel like you’re, you’re subjecting them, you know, all of a sudden they become a victim of a thing, right to owning their desire to grow, you know, owning that and saying, I actually do want growth. And this is a mecca. This is a, one of the ways we can help do that. Yeah,

Kim Bohr  33:56

I hear you describing, you know, partnership, curiosity, you know, co creation, co involvement, you know, in where, what can we do to to help look at your growth, also to help tell your fuller story. You know, in many ways. So I think that’s, I think those are really important factors and and moving away from a position that feels like it’s, you know, us versus them, and yeah, you want

Sandy Stelling  34:26

to get to a richer conversation where it isn’t just like a checklist, like I do the things right behaviors, it’s a little bit like what you do, how you do it. And then I think when you get deeper into these conversations, and I’ve had this opportunity with people that I’ve you know worked with in my professional career, you actually start to get and that really becomes interesting, because, like, again, it’s just be curious about yourself. Why do you why do you respond that way? Why would I feel threat, right, right, right? And you get into some of the why, and then, because you want to make sure that you. Everyone involved feels like they have agency. And so if, if the CEO feels like they’re being subjected to something because the board is imposing something, they’re never really going to have that agency over. You know, their leadership, right? They’re just, they’re just a part in a play, right to the start of their own show. And I think it’s really changing that up. And I think it don’t mean it to sound manipulative at all. I think it’s just human it’s leaning into human nature in a way, to unlock more, better performance, which is what each individual wants anyway, who doesn’t want to

Kim Bohr  35:38

be their best Absolutely. And I love simplifiers, right? Well, it’s, it’s, it’s, that’s the perfect example. And I love the word agency, because I think that is something that everybody wants to have. And, you know, I’ve heard, you know, this. This gives CEOs and the board and, you know, opportunity to have more collaboration as well. But for the CEO in particular, there is more control in looking at, how do I go about doing this, not just solely what I got because some because of that, I think that element of things feeling thankless at times. You know, there’s a lot to celebrate, too, when we look at the inputs, the how we got there, that is really should be surfaced and can be missed when we’re only focused on those metrics alone, right? I

Sandy Stelling  36:35

mean, when you when you can play to your strengths, you know, kind of where your brain is, when you can play to your strengths, you can find ways to use them in maybe circumstances you didn’t anticipate. Yeah, right. And so that’s one thing. I think that this creates the potential to discover some of that. Yes, right. So if you really good at storytelling, but I never, I never actually used my story telling skill to talk about the financial performance of the institution. I’m making it up. I’m making it up, right? But you could, yeah, I know all of a sudden you’re going to connect with a whole new audience and engage with different employees in different ways and or the board, or other things can happen. That’s one piece I think that’s really powerful when you kind of get into that, right, right? Yeah, and I personally find it fun but hard, right, right? Sometimes you you find things you didn’t want to find. This is true, right? You discover you have to come to terms with your own blind spots and go, Yeah, I do that, yeah. But yeah, if you can, if you can name it, then you can handle it

Kim Bohr  37:39

absolutely, and especially when you know you have a strong yeah team within your your board that’s going to support you in that process too. So before we wrap up, I want to ask you know, or at least maybe expand our conversation a little bit to the opportunity of you know, we’ve talked about how the boards were always talked about the CEO and evaluating and expanding in this way we’re thinking of one of the things I think is not always connected to this type of conversation is the benefit it brings to the organization itself, to the to The leaders who report to the CEO to creating an opportunity to align an evaluation to perhaps, maybe aspects of how others are evaluated on their performance throughout the organization. And I’m curious if you have any, you know, thoughts or experiences in that way where you could say, yeah, there’s a it creates, even a healthy organization, a situation that expands into that level of the organization where those dynamics are bigger.

Sandy Stelling  38:46

Yeah, I think, you know, for our the 360 process we use very much involves the leadership team that reports to the CEO, and so they also participate in the evaluation. They participate in interviews. And I think it’s important for the board to hear from them, right? Right? So we hear that through the data and the insights that come from conversations, right? We hear from them. And, you know, there have been times where that has been very insightful for us, because the board has one view, and the leadership team had a very different view, and that became a place to explore. Why is that? What’s going on? Who’s what are the why are the experiences so different, or the interpretations of the experiences so different? What’s going you know? And I think it was helpful to have that to help, again, help the CEO understand like, you know, and even explore that. This is interesting, and, you know, they’re kind of in the middle of it, but it’s, why do you think this is what’s going on? How can we help? You know, that’s always tricky, too, because we’re not an operational board. We’re just there to support, you know, and and work with the CEO and the team, but we want to make sure, like we’re not doing his job or her job, yep, but we want. To help them and support them right in that way. So I think having hearing from the people who actually are working with the CEO day in and day out, is a rich insight that a board member wouldn’t generally have, right? And I think it definitely rounds up the picture. But I also think the CEO’s self evaluation as part of the 360 process is also insightful. And you know, they’ll mark themselves again, year over year. What’s happening? They’ll mark themselves high. They’ll mark themselves low. What’s going on? Yeah, she thinks that. And then it does give us an opportunity to actually recognize strong performance where there may be being hypercritical. I say, Are you like, from our perspective, like I hear what you’re saying, but you should know, from our perspective, we think you’ve done fantastic at XYZ, at navigating problem, you know, a whatever. And I that. So those opportunities also come out of a process like this, where you get to recognize the strengths and the goodness. Not just we’re here to grow. We’re here to improve. It’s all we’re about. We’re like, no, let’s take a couple minutes and honor. Take some time and honor the strengths you bring to the table every day, how it shows up, how people see it, even if sometimes you get caught up and don’t see it, you get swept up, right? Like, don’t forget, you’ve got really great qualities that got you here exactly, exactly. You’re not here by accident, right? You’re not right in the organization by accident. But always having a growth mindset is not a bad way to move to the world, because the world is constantly changing,

Kim Bohr  41:35

absolutely. And I think just you know, for CEOs that can bring that level of insight and transparency back to that executive team that participated. I think that has the opportunity to just not only show that vulnerability, but strengthen those relationships too and and so it gives it kind of it’s that comes full circle for everybody involved. So as we wrap up, or is there anything you want to make sure we you share that perhaps we haven’t touched on, or you want to reinforce as we bring our conversation to a close,

Sandy Stelling  42:14

big question. It’s a big open question. You know. Again, just to bring it home, I think we can talk about process, and we can talk about evaluations, and we could talk about data, and we can get all into it. They have to remember, it’s humans. Human beings are complicated. They’re messy. And any process that’s evaluating the performance and effectiveness of another human being. You know, there’s risk involved, so I would just say focus on growth orientation and creating safe spaces for those conversations and the curiosity, because then I think you have the best shot at Unlocking Potential.

Kim Bohr  42:57

Agreed, the fabulous words to end on. So what I’ll want to share with our listeners is that we have three downloads for you. If you visit the website, courage to advance podcast.com, it will take you to our spark effect page, and there you’ll be able to download one or all three of these, and just to give you a snippet about each the first downloads a guide to those that are tasked with finding the process or finding a right partner, and addresses really important items that are needed to ensure successful evaluations, so much of what needs to be gathered in order for the Board’s interest and the CEOs. The second download addresses CEOs, highlighting how this expanded view reveals the behind the scenes factors contributing to the outcome. So those the hows and the inputs and the benefit to the CEO of thinking of it from this lens. And then the third download is really for board members, and it really is much about what we’ve talked about here today, whether you’re on a nonprofit or a for profit board. It ties into covering, how do you assess the risk and build trust between the CEO and the board in a way that’s really effective? And so you can find these links in the show notes, and you can also connect with us on LinkedIn. That’ll be in the show notes as well. And I want to just thank you again, Sandy, for sharing your insights and what you’ve brought to our conversation today. And I want to thank our listeners who have joined us today on our courage to advance

Sandy Stelling  44:30

podcast. Thanks, Kim. It’s been really fun, great conversation.

Kim Bohr  44:35

I really enjoyed it as well. We’ll hope to hear and from you more in the future, Sandy and we’ll look forward to our listeners tuning in on our next episode. Thank you

Maria Ross  44:47

for more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathyedge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop. Up and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Learn More With Maria

Ready to join the revolution?

Find out how empathetic your brand is RIGHT NOW, and join our newsletter to start shifting your perspective and transforming your impact.

Privacy
This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged.