Today I’m facilitating a unique discussion with three brave women, two of which live under this shadow of fear for themself and their child, and one who is a cisgender ally: Kate Brookes, Jayna Sheats, & Jeannie Gainsburg. We talk about their own stories that led them to this work, how the increase in anti-trans legislation impacts them, what it’s like to parent a trans teen and they share their most poignant moments from their journeys. We also share simple yet impactful tips for you on how to be an ally as a manager, colleague and neighbor to support the trans community.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Accepting and loving your child no matter how they present is support and protection for your child.
- Fiction is an amazing tool for empathy. It allows you to explore with your imagination experiences outside of your own.
- As allies, we need to step up, use the right language, and let people know that they are safe.
- Everyone is watching the world for signals to understand they are safe.
“Dignity is at stake. LGBTQ rights are at stake. Right now, while my daughter has access to these things, a vote could take some of these necessities. They’re not privileges, they’re necessities. They’re what she needs. A vote could jeopardize her needs.” — Kate Brookes
References:
- Hanna’s Ascent by Jayna Sheats
- Transister: Raising Twins in a Gender-Bending World by Kate Brookes
- The Savvy Ally: A Guide for Becoming a Skilled LGPTQ+ Advocate by Jeannie Gainsburg
- 2016 Study on Mental Health of Transgender Children Who are Supported in their Identities
- GFP: Gender and Family Project
- Sissy: A Coming of Gender Story by Jacob Tobia
- Cori Lovejoy: A Trans Woman’s Journey Transforming Self and Organizational Culture
- Jeannie Gainsburg: How to Be a Savvy LGBTQ+ Ally
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Kate Brookes: Producer, Filmmaker, Writer. Kate Brookes is an award-winning TV reporter turned producer, filmmaker, and writer. An activist since her teens, Kate has devoted countless hours to the causes she supports, including mental health, housing justice, and anti-gun legislation. But it wasn’t until realizing she’d completely botched the birth announcement for her twins that she became active in LGBTQ causes. The author of Transister: Raising Twins in a Gender-Bending World, Kate lives with her husband and rock star children, one of whom happens to be trans, in New York City.
Jeannie Gainsburg, Founder, Savvy Ally Action: Jeannie is an educational trainer and consultant in LGBTQ+ inclusion and effective allyship, and author of, The Savvy Ally: A Guide for Becoming a Skilled LGBTQ+ Advocate. She is the founder of Savvy Ally Action, a small business that offers accessible and encouraging workshops and videos on how to be an ally to the LGBTQ+ communities.
Jayna Sheats, Author: Jayna grew up on an isolated Colorado ranch in the 1950s, where the word “transgender” had never once been heard. Returning to CO after studying language and psychology in Germany, she finally majored in physical science and settled in Silicon Valley with a PhD in chemistry. Jayna is the author of, Hanna’s Ascent. Today she spends most of her time writing novels about triumph over trauma and social justice, and a non-fiction book on transgender women and athletics.
Connect with Our Guests:
Kate Brookes: transistermom.com
Jeannie Gainsburg: savvyallyaction.com
Jayna Sheats: jaynasheats.com
LinkedIn: Jeannie Gainsburg
Facebook: Jayna Sheats, Author
Instagram: @jeanniegainsburgauthor
Connect with Maria:
Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com
Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
X: @redslice
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Today’s episode is a little different, because it’s not just about empathy to improve your leadership and culture, although we do touch on that, but it’s about empathy, because lives are at stake. Transgender children and adults alike are under attack in the United States, according to trans legislation.com. Which tracks legislation that seeks to block trans people from receiving basic health care, education, legal recognition and the right to publicly exist. Here’s what’s going on. 652 anti trans bills in 43 states, 45 have passed. 123 are active, and 484 have failed. Transgender individuals live in constant fear it isn’t right and it isn’t fair, and it’s impacting your neighbors, colleagues, employees, and possibly your families. Today, I’m facilitating a unique discussion with three brave women, two of which live under this shadow of fear for themselves and their child, and one who is a cisgender ally and expert, they have each written books that will help you practice empathy for people you may not understand, but who need your support. Kate Brooks is an award winning TV reporter turned producer, filmmaker and writer, an activist. Since her teenage years, Kate has devoted countless hours to the causes she supports, including mental health, housing justice and anti gun legislation. But it wasn’t until realizing she’d completely botched the birth announcement for her twins that she became active in LGBTQ causes, the author of trans sister raising twins in a gender bending world, Kate lives with her husband and rock star children, one of whom happens to be trans in New York City. Jeannie gainsburg is an educational trainer and consultant in the field of LGBTQ plus inclusion and effective allyship, and author of the book The savvy ally a guide for becoming a skilled LGBTQ plus advocate. She’s the founder of savvy ally action, a small business that offers accessible and encouraging workshops and videos on how to be an ally to the LGBTQ plus communities. Before forming the company, she spent 15 years working for the out Alliance Rochester, New York’s LGBTQ plus Center, where she was the education director. And Jana sheets is an author and transgender woman who grew up in an isolated Colorado ranch in the 1950s where the word transgender or any variant had never once been heard, returning to Colorado after studying language and psychology in Germany, she finally chose to major in physical science and settled in Silicon Valley with a PhD in chemistry. Jaina is the author of the novel Hannah’s ascent. Today, she is still involved in her microelectronics startup, but spends most of her time writing novels about triumph over trauma and social justice, as well as a future nonfiction book on transgender women and athletics. Today, we talk about their own personal stories that led them to this work, how the increase in anti trans legislation personally impacts them, what it’s like to parent a trans teen in a world where trans youth face higher rates of depression, suicide and bullying, and they thoughtfully share their most poignant and impactful moments from their journeys. We also share loads of simple yet highly impactful tips on how you can be an ally as a manager, colleague and neighbor and support the transgender community, and we talk about our hopes for the future. You may not personally know a transgender person or even understand it. Empathy requires curiosity, representation, stories and humanization, and that is what this episode will offer you. A warning suicide is mentioned in this episode. This is an important one. Folks, take a listen. Welcome ladies to the empathy edge Podcast. I’m so excited. As I mentioned to you, I’ve never done a four way interview before, so I’m very excited to do this. Welcome to Kate Brooks, to Jeannie gainsburg and Jayna sheets. I’m. So delighted to have you here to talk about this important topic of allyship, especially with the transgender community, and what we can do to be better allies as as our world is changing, as our society is changing, and as we’re faced with a lot of challenges these days. So I just want to do a little bit of a round robin to have our listeners get to know each of you. So Jana, I’d love to start with you. Can you share a little bit about about your work and what you’re most passionate about?
Jayna Sheats 05:29
Sure, so I won’t say so my work. First of all, I think it’s I’ve I liked being 39 so much, I decided I would say 39 for the next 39 years. So so I’m 76 so I do not really have a workplace, and yet I do, because I’m still a CTO of a startup company, and I still go there once a week, but my work is my writing and and that’s what I’m passionate about.
Maria Ross 05:57
Great. And you and you wrote a book called Hannah’s ascent, a fiction book. Can you tell us a little bit about that and what prompted you to write it?
Jayna Sheats 06:05
So the easiest way, so I can do that, there’s something that’s common in the the movie industry called a log line. And if you’ve heard of that, that’s a way of putting your story in 30 words, so that someone the screenplay so a tenacious transgender girl from 1950s rural Colorado suffers amnesia and loss of language after a vicious assault, setting her and on an intercontinental journey to find a real home and reclaim her true self.
06:33
Wow.
Jayna Sheats 06:36
So yeah, going on so, so then there’s more to be said about it, but, but maybe you know, like we can talk about it as you go along, sure,
Maria Ross 06:45
sure. And then Kate, tell us a little bit about you
Kate Brookes 06:49
Sure thing. So I am a former TV news reporter turned writer, producer and filmmaker. I am a proud wife, a super proud mom and a lifelong activist. Over the years, I’ve probably advocated for everything from housing rights to mental health awareness to gun reform, but it was not until my husband and I realized we had completely botched our twins birth announcement, and then I began advocating for LGBTQ rights. So as part of my advocacy, I write about parenting a trans kid, and some of the issues that pop up accordingly. I speak to schools, hospitals, synagogues, essentially about the importance of accepting and protecting trans kids. And I also, as part of this, wrote the book transistor, raising twins in a gender bending world, and I wrote the book that I kind of wished I had had when my daughter was transitioning, not a prescriptive narrative, if you will, but an affirming one, candid, heartfelt, sometimes humorous, in the hopes that parents who were going through what I was experiencing having a child transition would feel less alone, and that anyone interested in what it might be like to have a trans kid, to be around a trans kid, whether the coach or a teacher, would read this and have a better understanding of how they can help to Protect and accept trans people and to kind of humanize the trans experience, if
Maria Ross 08:24
you will? Yeah, absolutely. And we talk a lot about that on the show, in terms of giving people exposure to different stories and different people that they may not regularly have exposure to, but that important aspect of humanizing a group of people that maybe someone doesn’t understand and representation matters, I would say yes, absolutely, absolutely. So welcome and Jeannie, you are a repeat guest on the empathy edge podcast, and I’ll put a link to your first episode we did together, but briefly remind people about your story and
Jeannie Gainsburg 08:57
your work. Sure, so I am a straight cisgender ally to the communities. I call myself a late bloomer as an ally. I didn’t get started until about age 40. I had a real aha moment. My husband gave me a book about the women who fought for my right to vote in the US. And I was reading this book and doing this thing that I do when I read history, which is like putting myself back in that time period and thinking, how would I have behaved if I had lived back then, you know, would I have been involved? And of course, I had convinced myself that I would be marching alongside all those amazing women, and I suddenly realized how hypocritical I was being, because, you know, there are social justice fights going on in my lifetime. Here I am fantasizing about how I would have behaved, you know, over 100 years ago, and I wasn’t doing anything to help in the current time period. And LGBTQ plus inclusion and rights is just always kind of a no brainer for me, but I had done nothing to get involved, and this book really just kind of lit that fire under my butt. I looked up the word gay in the phone book because I had. No idea what was out there in the straight cisgender world. Didn’t know anyone in the community. And fortunately, at the time, I shouldn’t say fortunately, it’s a very non inclusive name, but at the time, our LGBTQ plus Center here in Rochester, New York, was called the Gay Alliance, so I found it very easily. We later changed our name, by the way, to something more inclusive. But I called and asked if I could volunteer, and that ended up launching me into a career as an LGBTQ plus inclusion advocate and someone who really focused in on how we can be effective allies. So I worked for that agency for 15 years. I ended up being their education director, and by the time I left, I started my own small company called savvy ally action, and ended up writing a book called The savvy ally, which was kind of like what Kate said. This was the book that I so desperately wanted when I got right. I mean, I knew nothing at all. I didn’t even know what, like at the time GLBT stood for, that was the initialism we were using. I’m like, what does this mean? So I started from scratch, and I really wanted a book about, like, just tell me what to do, tell me what to say, tell me what not to say, tell me how not to offend people accidentally. So I wrote the book. I everything I know about how to be an ally. I put into that book, and it really is for not just for folks like me who know nothing and are just getting started, but really for even allies who have been out there doing great ally work. Just, you know, I just hear so many people read it, and they’re like, Wow, I thought I knew, and I learned so much. And so it’s really a very action oriented book,
Maria Ross 11:28
okay, what I love about having the three of you in one interview is we have someone who identifies as transgender. Personally, we have someone whose family is impacted by transgender identity, and then we have someone who seemingly has no connection to that community per se, but an interest in justice and equity now
Jeannie Gainsburg 11:50
and do now have have a vested interest. I’ve got tons of you know, obviously I’ve met the most amazing people, but yes, when I started, I had no no one in my family, no close friends who are part of the community,
Maria Ross 12:01
yeah, and I think that just goes to the to the point that this is an issue that impacts everyone, and also Jeannie, to your experience, it’s never too late, right? You talk about yourself as a late bloomer. I would probably consider myself in that camp too. But a lot of us are late bloomers because of perhaps the environment we grew up in, or the neighborhood we grew up in, or if we were not exposed and not getting to know other people and other ways of living and other ways of loving. So I think many people come to this as a late bloomer and you know, or you’re immediately impacted by it. So I wanted to kind of go intern and talk to a few of you for I wanted to start with Kate first, actually, and talk about, you know, you are the parent of a chan transgender individual, and by the way, call me out on any terminology that I’m not using correctly, because that’s part of my learning too. We know that trans youth face higher rates of depression, of suicide, of bullying, and so help us have empathy for this. What is it like parenting a trans child in this environment, in this climate?
Kate Brookes 13:11
So in a word, I would say it’s scary. I mean, as a mom, I want to raise happy, healthy, kind kids, and I want them to feel safe. I want them to be safe physically. I want them to be safe emotionally. And right now I would opine, and I have, I have twins, one of whom is trans and one is cisgender. One of my children is not as safe as the other, and I know as a mom that there’s a lot that I can’t control, so I try to deal with the things that I can. But above and above it all, I want to be able to protect my kids. And right now, there are 21 states out there that have some sort of ban on gender affirming care for trans youth. More than a third of trans youth live in those states. Now I often point out that in some ways, and I don’t think it’s easy to be trans, and I don’t think it’s easy to parent a trans child, and I think it’s easier for me and for my daughter, because we do live in in a bubble, if you will. We live in a city where we have access to gender affirming care. She lives in a home where her parents accept her, which is huge, and we have the resources if we needed to chop off a limb and sell it, we would do that to make sure that our daughter gets the care, mental health care and gender affirming health care that she needs. So it can be really scary, and I’m reminded of something that one of my heroes in this world had said, John Malpass, he’s the founder of the gender and family trend, the gender and family project in New York, and he said acceptance is protection, meaning if you accept your child, if you affirm his her or their gender identity. Right? You’re already helping to protect your child, and the data supports this notion. And I won’t get too into the weeds, but I always reference this 2016 study that tracked a group of trans kids and a group of cisgender kids, and the results of that study showed that trans kids who were supported by their parents had similar mental health, mental health outcomes as the cisgender control group. So when we talk about increased bullying, increased rates of suicide, increased rates of depression, I, as a mom, can’t control all of that, and I can control whether I accept my child and I love both of my children and I accept both of them, and that goes a long way towards protecting both of them, and in this case, my trans daughter, Gabby, who is an absolute rock star, so yes, it’s scary, and I’m acknowledging the privilege that my family has in protecting our child, and I don’t think there’s a privilege in being trans, and if there was one, she was born To the right family in the right city, and in some ways, at the
Maria Ross 16:03
right time, and is that kind of what fuels you to take up the fight for other families that don’t have it? You know, as quote, unquote privileged as you do absolutely.
Kate Brookes 16:14
I mean, I look at the upcoming election and what’s at stake, dignity is at stake. LGBTQ rights are at stake. So much is at stake, and so right now, while my daughter has access to these things, a vote could take some of these necessities. They’re not privileges, they’re necessities. They’re what she needs. A vote could could jeopardize her needs. So yes, but for my daughter, and especially for other kids out there, I’m in all of these private groups, some on Facebook, some in other places, and so many kids are not accepted and therefore not protected. And I what when my daughter is out of the home, married kids on the way, if that’s what she chooses, I will still be fighting this fight, because it is likely not a fight that’s going away to tomorrow,
Maria Ross 17:09
right? Unfortunately, yeah, all right, I want to shift to Jaina, you know, kind of taking up that theme as a trans woman, going through this life as a trans woman. How do you react to the increase in anti trans legislation, and how do you think your novel can impact that conversation?
Jayna Sheats 17:32
So I have at most one word about the legislation. It’s, I mean, it’s horrifying, and I don’t have anything else to say about it. I really don’t the question about, I mean, it’s, it’s insane, right? I mean, there is not, there are not words to it
Maria Ross 17:53
makes no sense to me. Like, what? Like the cycles of them going through this to try to get this legislation passed. It’s like, it’s just, it’s nonsensical, so
Jayna Sheats 18:04
they’re horrified, right? So I suppose I could say, you know, two sentences. So there are, there are two types. One can divide that world into three types of people, the ones who are opposing the legislation, the ones who are so far on the other side that you can’t talk to them. And then there are people in between who really don’t know because they have never touched that world. And so I guess if I were to jump in to
18:38
to that, you know, the the
Jayna Sheats 18:44
reason for writing a novel. So I would say this in answer to your question, to sort of jump in, and so I haven’t said anything about the novel, but it’s, it’s, it’s written for many, many reasons, and and it’s not attract, it’s it’s not pre it’s not intended to preach anything. It’s intended to describe a story, to allow people to which, I hope you know, from the practical you know, messaging point of view, allows people to relate to a subject that they’d only heard about with the kind of words that are used with no disrespect whatsoever to journalists who, many of whom are doing a wonderful they’re doing absolutely the best they possibly can. But when they say these things, so you’ll have you you have articles you know about, you know, with phrases like born in the wrong body, or you have phrases about mental health. How many people in this country know what mental health is? How many people have even the foggiest faintest idea of what that really means? I’ll bet you not one in 100 I really don’t think that’s the case. So the puberty blockers and the arguments about, you see, somebody’s cash. Creating themselves and blah, blah, blah, blah, these are just words that don’t mean a thing to people. They’re being batted across, back and forth across a net, like like a volleyball or or a tennis
20:11
ball.
Jayna Sheats 20:14
And not all of the people doing that are, are, are are malignant. They’re just ignorant. They don’t know, and they and they, if they knew, they would be different. And so the point of having a novel is this old fashioned word of trying to allow someone to walk in another person’s shoes, which you cannot do literally. But the novel, if it’s written well, can put you there and give you the emotions you can actually experience the life, instead of just hearing about it in some kind of abstract words. You immerse yourself, you feel the emotions as you go along. And I mean, that’s the ideal, at least. And I think I hope that that people can do that.
Maria Ross 21:02
Yeah. I mean, fiction plays such a huge role in strengthening empathy and helping people understand and sort of be able to safely in their mind, see something from another person’s perspective. And you know, when I wrote the first empathy book, the empathy edge, I talked about exploring with your imagination as one strategy to strengthen your empathy, and that was to consume books, novels, fiction, nonfiction, art, music, documentaries about people who are different from you. And that’s how you flex that muscle of just saying, like, I wonder what I would feel. I wonder what that would be like, and be able to test that out and make that actually part of the way you just operate with people in the in the real world. And so I think fiction has a tremendous power and a tremendous place to enabling us to build that empathy for groups and for people that we don’t understand. So thank you. Thank you for bringing that into the world, because that’s going to probably be much more effective for certain people than if you sat them down and lectured, right? And so they’re really getting to humanize someone. They’re really getting to know their story. They’re getting to like a protagonist that in any other context they could perceive as very different from them. And when you when you couch it in a fictional story, it can make more sense. It can it can land better, if you will. So I hope that that’s that’s going to happen with that book. It’s great. So Jeannie, I want to talk to you about a few of your favorite ally tips for supporting the transgender community writ large. What are some ways, if someone’s listening, and not just in the workplace, but in our communities, and then I would like us to drill down, and this is open to anyone too, about what can be done within the workplace. How can we support colleagues or employees? How can managers and leaders address the needs of transgender people. So at the end of the day, we can all be our best selves, but we can all do our best work.
Jeannie Gainsburg 23:08
Yeah? So the big questions, yeah, no, I just tips are my favorite. Yeah? Superpower. I’m excited. Okay, I’ll share three, but obviously I got a lot more in my book some of my favorites that I think are very impactful and not super difficult for anyone. The first one would be to check in with the transgender coworker, you know, especially if you’re a leader, you know, Team Leader, check in with your coworker who’s trans, or if you’re a parent with your child, and ask them how you can best support them, because, you know, everyone’s different. I mean, you know, some people are really going to appreciate some active support, for example, in the workplace from a leader, and others are going to not want a lot of attention drawn to them, and they may not want that support, and they may like support in different areas, so checking in with them is a great thing to do, because you’re going to get guidance right there on you know what to do. And I would say that’s sort of an ongoing thing. So because you’re going to find yourself in situations where you’re just not sure, I always give the example of like you’re in a work meeting and someone accidentally uses the wrong pronoun for, you know, a co worker. That’s what I would consider a gray area of allyship, because for some folks, they’re like, please, please step in and say something. I’m tired of telling people. And for other folks, they’re like, there are new people at the table. I’m uncomfortable. I don’t feel Yeah, I don’t want you drawing attention to this. Don’t say anything, and you have no idea of knowing unless you ask the person. So it’s going to be an ongoing thing of checking in and just saying, you know, what else needs to be done? How else can I support you? So maybe things like that that are very personal, it may be things that are bigger picture. Like, hey, it’d be really nice if we had an all gender restroom in our building. Like, I have to. Go across the street to the library to use the restroom safely, you know, like, what’s needed, right? Yeah, so that’s an easy an easy start is just check in with the person and see what you can do and and keep that sort of an ongoing check in another one. Again, for I’m sort of thinking of like the workplace leader. But of course, this is great for for everyone model the correct language, and also how to mess up properly, because we’re all going to mess up. And there are, you know, great ways to do that, and there are ways that draw a lot of attention to that. But one of the things that I like to say is like, one of the, I think the best ways that we can show respect to a person, anyone, whether they’re cis or trans or anything, is to get their name and their pronoun correct. And so, you know, this isn’t like something special, some special way that we’re treating trans people. You know, I like to give the example of like a woman who changes her name when she gets married. You know, this is considered the norm in our culture, and so no one gets angry at the women. Gosh, I wish these women would stop changing their names. I can’t get it right. No one says this, right? It’s like, that’s understood that that’s a typical thing to do, right? And people are just like, Oh yeah, it’s gonna take a little time, but I’m gonna get that new name, or
Maria Ross 26:11
they correct them, like, easily, right? Like, no, Maria’s married now. Her last name is Rob. Okay, right, okay, yeah, thanks, right.
Jeannie Gainsburg 26:17
But all of a sudden, it’s like, you know, someone’s pronoun, someone has a new pronoun, and it’s like, people take it personally. They’re like, why should I have to, you know? And so I think those examples are really great because, like, well, this is something we do for everyone. So, yeah, special just because this person’s trans, or someone who’s like, name is difficult for us to pronounce in English, same thing. Let’s be respectful and put a little practice into that, you know, to try and get it right. So again, modeling the correct language messing up properly. And just a real simple thing I like to say about messing up when it’s a situation where you’ve used a wrong name or pronoun is, keep
Kate Brookes 26:54
it short,
Jeannie Gainsburg 26:55
keep it simple. Don’t sob on anyone’s shoes. Yes, you know, I like
Maria Ross 26:59
to, I like to think of that as, like, Don’t Michael Scott it from the office, you know, like, he’s actually made it a bigger deal than it exactly.
Jeannie Gainsburg 27:06
Yeah, exactly. You can make it such a big deal that you get in ridiculous situations where the person’s now trying to make you feel better. Because, you know, like, come on. So you want to make it sincere, but you also want to keep it very brief. So just like, oh, excuse me, or I’m sorry. Same thing as if you get someone’s married name wrong. Like, oh, right, sorry, I’m gonna work on it. You know, just really short and that you
Maria Ross 27:26
wouldn’t, you wouldn’t be going off on, if that, like, in that scenario, I just love this, because this is real for people. If it was a married person, you wouldn’t be going on and on about how. Like, well, not that I don’t love married people. Married people are great. My neighbors are married people. And, like,
Jeannie Gainsburg 27:41
my best friends are married.
Maria Ross 27:44
Yeah, you would never do that. So you don’t need to do it. You don’t need to justify and backtrack. It’s just like, wow, I’m really sorry.
27:49
Yeah, it’s so true.
Jeannie Gainsburg 27:52
Yes. And then the final tip I have for folks is to practice. So one of the things that’s really important to keep in mind about humans is that we don’t retain information well, unless we actually practice so for example, if you have a friend who just told you you go out to dinner and they’re like, Hey, by the way, I’m I’m using the pronoun they now, right? You see that that friend again a month from now at the movies, you’re likely to resort to that old pronoun, because we don’t retain that information for a month, right? Unless we actually practice it. And so I would, I always say, just like practice. So if you’re struggling with someone’s pronoun, find ways to practice either that you know you set your phone to send you a daily message that says, What are so and so’s pronouns like test yourself every morning, right? Or find things out in the world that sort of, you can, you can, sort of, I always say this is sort of like self, internal self talk. You know, you walk by their their cubicle at work, and you’re like, gosh, they’re neat, wow. I’ll have to ask them, them for some tips on how they stay so organized in your head. Use the correct pronoun whenever these types of things, we really need to work at it. We’re not just going to automatically get someone’s name or pronoun right without practicing
Maria Ross 29:08
it. Yeah, I love that. Such great tips, and I want to, I want to take a step back also to to talk to Kate and Jayna about their experiences, because I think what’s so interesting to me, and why I am so curious about people in the in in this situation and living these lifestyles, is the moment of clarity. So for you like Jana, I don’t, I don’t know how old you were when you transitioned fully, but what was, what was the spark, what was the moment of clarity? Because I think when we know that and we understand that about other people, we can, we can tell what, what phase they’re in, of of acceptance, do you know what I’m saying? So for you, what was that? What was that spark? What was that epiphany where you’re like, Yeah, I’m going all in on this. And maybe it was a slow. Burn, I don’t know. So
Jayna Sheats 30:01
it’s, it’s a good question and and I would give a shout out to Jeannie describing how many people go through that in different ways. First of all, I detest the word transition, not and it’s just not a criticism, because it’s a ubiquitously used and my what I think about, it isn’t going to change anything but share with us that we need to know you don’t transition, except in the eyes of the law. So I don’t believe there is any indication whatsoever that transgender people are not born with that identity, but it may take anywhere from two years to a lifetime to accept it. And the question is, why is it take so so long for some people, and why is it so hard? And the answer is, because it’s scary, because society has made it scary, and people react to that in very different ways. Some people are, you know, you have, like, my, my grandson has a personality that is so different from anything that I imagined as a child. I mean, he’s just, he’s out there, you know, and he does things I would never have dreamed. I mean, I wouldn’t have gotten away without I went and thrashed into a pulp if I had, but I wouldn’t have even tried it. Yeah, and that determined. So there’s no doubt. I mean, I knew, I knew that I was, that I was a girl at the age of probably five, which is the first time I think I saw a girl, because we lived in a place where there were no neighbors. And of course, I repressed this notion, but I knew it. And so I can look back at my consciousness of myself now and see how I knew things, and within 33 milliseconds, which is about the neural Trent cycle time, repressed it. So how people deal with that is very, very individual.
Maria Ross 31:59
And at what point did you feel safe? What was the what was the difference maker for you?
Jayna Sheats 32:05
Oh, the question so I went through getting married, having having a family, we adopted children, which was, yeah, anyway, don’t get off the subject. But it was the and I thought, okay, it’s too late to do this. And then, and then, I don’t want to call it, you know, there’s different ways of committing suicide too. You don’t have to just sort of jump off a bridge or shoot yourself. There are ways of doing it day by day, year by year, for a lifetime. And it came to the conclusion that I shouldn’t do that anymore, despite the fact that I had, you know, two children and a wife who thought that this was, you know, she wasn’t married, she didn’t plan on being married to a woman, which was understandable. So,
Maria Ross 32:54
yeah, yeah, yeah. It was interesting. I had a guest on my show, Corey Lovejoy who, interestingly enough, a few years prior to that interview with her, I had an interview with Corey Custer, a man who was an executive, and so it was the same person, and I interviewed her later, after she had decided to live her life as who she really was. And it was interesting to me because I really heard her story stuck with me, and I’ll put a link in the show notes to her interview. But because when she was younger, she knew, but she thought something was wrong with her. She thought she was mentally ill. That’s, that’s the message she got. And so lived her life similar to you. You know, got married, had kids, and then it’s finally free and and knowing her from having interviewed her, I think it was two years prior that I interviewed Corey as a man. When I interviewed her two years later, even the way she looked on a zoom call was different. She was just so bright and alive and happy and and I remember even back then, when I did the first interview, it just seemed like, oh, maybe the lighting is bad. Maybe they’re just having a bad day. Maybe it was just remarkable. And I remarked on it when we did the interview, and I was like, This is what happens when you live who you really are. And, you know, same thing, very scary. But it’s just that, you know, this is kind of leading me into the question I want to delve into with Kate. It’s just all these messages we get when we’re younger, and the different experiences people have when they’re younger, and they’re trying to sort this out for themselves, of who they really are on the inside, it can make such a difference if you’re growing up in a house like Kate’s, versus, you know, in a house someone else is growing up in, and the impact on your mental health and your ability to be a thriving individual and to just thrive as who you really are. So I kind of want to ask the same question, Kate, where was the moment of realization for you and I there? You know, there might be folks out there listening who are maybe their child is not transgender. Her yet, but they have a suspicion. Maybe they haven’t talked about it. Could you share a little bit if you’re open to it, about what was that realization like in your family? Absolutely. So
Kate Brookes 35:10
the realization for my daughter happened over time she and Jayna, I will use the word transition, because that’s the word my daughter uses. She socially transitioned at eight years old. But long story short, I gave birth to to twins, Jacob and Gideon in 2009 and when the doctor said it’s a boy, and then a minute later, it’s another boy, my husband and I believe the doctor, until we did, and over time, we realized that one of our twins, Gideon, seemed to gravitate towards more stereotypical, quote, unquote, girl stuff. Favorite, pink and purple. Liked wearing tutus, my shoes, my dresses. And candidly, first, we figured maybe Git is gay. And honestly, we were hoping that he was just gay, not because we’d love him any less if he realized he was a she, but because, statistically, as we discussed earlier, Life can be tough for trans kids and adults, but we knew that we would support both of our kids and love them both regardless, and I think for my daughter, who’s now Gabriella Gabby, it was There were a couple of kind of aha moments when she was presenting as Gideon after a birthday party. That was a super fun birthday party that night. Always, Gideon got upset after celebrating a birthday party. And in retrospect, I think it’s also always it might have had something to do with one more year and I’m still, everyone still thinks I’m a boy. So we’re so kids are going to bed one one night after their fabulous birthday party, and Gideon calls me into the room, Mom, will you come here? And it’s usually that’s that means you’re going to be in there forever. You know twins. You really just want five years old. You want them to go to sleep right. Roll up into his bunk bed, and he said to me, Mama, why don’t my friends know me? And they said, What do you mean? Of course, your friends know you. And he said, No, they don’t. Jacob got all the gifts he wanted his birth, at his at our birthday party, and only Gila Gideon, his best girlfriend, got me a Barbie. My friends don’t know me. And I tried to explain to get that, you know, I was like, grasping for straws. You know, sometimes parents just buy in bulk, and it’s not that they don’t know you, and, of course, they know you and they love you. But Jacob got everything he wanted and rattled for the and and he was right. And I didn’t tell GID that. Well, we probably didn’t tell the other parents that maybe this is what you like. And then I thought, Wait, maybe we can just return some of the gifts and exchange them for gifts that you do want. And GID was like, Oh my gosh, Mom, we can do that. And I said, of course, we can. So rubbing his back, and I kind of feel the muscles start to unclench, and I think we’re getting somewhere. And softly, quietly, GID says, Mama, sometimes I wish I was a girl. And I said, Well, that’s okay, love mommy and daddy will love you if you’re a boy, a girl or a bunny rabbit. And somehow that was enough. Don’t know how the bunny rabbit jumped into my mind, but it did, and that seemed to quell did for a few years, and I’m thinking like, wow, I wish I was a girl. I didn’t say I am a girl, so I’m woo dodge that bullet, except for in my heart of hearts, I knew we really didn’t dodge a bullet. Fast forward a couple years, my kids learned what the word transgender meant, and so all these questions came popping up out of out of both kids. Then at about eight years old, I’m walking down the street holding Gideons hand was with him, not my not his brother. We had this alone time after school. One had a plum play date. One didn’t we stopped at a light and get looked up and me and said, Mama, I think I’m a transistor, to which I replied, Do you mean transgender? And get said, Yes, when I was in your tummy, I was supposed to come out a girl. It was a mistake. And in retrospect, I wish I said, Oh, baby, nothing about you is a mistake. But I said something to the effect of mommy and daddy love you. If you say you’re a girl, we believe you and we’re going to work through this as though there was like some magical finish line that I was going to work towards, Yeah, us towards, and as if there was an end point. But it was at that moment that Gabriela realized she was Gabriela, although my husband and I had been going to support group meetings for parents of gender non conforming kids for a while, because we really thought this could be where it was headed, and we didn’t want to give we were scared to say the word transgender for a long time, and I’m embarrassed to say that, because I’m think of Florida, just say gay, like as though you say the word gay, they’re going to become gay, yeah, and it was still scary. So I would say I absolutely mourned the loss of one of my sons and what I perceived to be a. Quote, normal family. And over time, I learned to celebrate my daughter and realize that there is no such thing as a normal family, and that would and that’s kind of a beautiful thing. So it wasn’t overnight. And I do echo what, what Jaina says that, you know, the trans community isn’t a monolith. I mean, some people know when they’re two. Some people figure it out when they’re 50. Some Yeah, buddy could maybe, you know, maybe their gender identity changes at times, you know, and toggles back and forth. But we tried to follow the lead as best we could. Of our daughter tried to support her along the way, and I’m embarrassed to say that we, at times, really were wishing that she was just gay. Now I couldn’t. I mean, I’m the proudest mom in the world to both of my children, and this is who she’s supposed to be. This not even supposed to be. This is who she is. Yeah, I don’t, I don’t view it as a choice. She is, just who she is. So now I’m grateful, and it was
Maria Ross 41:03
hard, yeah, yeah, completely honest and and thank you for sharing your vulnerability and your your vulnerability through that process, because I think that’s going to help a lot of people who might be in this situation. And I’m wondering if, as kind of as we wrap up, kind of shifting to, I know I’m kind of going back and forth because I’m like, Oh, I could talk to you all. Could talk to you all for like, three hours. But as we kind of go back into the workplace setting,
41:28
is there any advice, and
Maria Ross 41:30
maybe that’s not the setting for anyone to acknowledge anything if they don’t know someone well enough. But is there any advice you can give around if you see a co worker or an employee who’s struggling, not like a parent to child relationship, but if you suspect they there’s something, might be something going on there in terms of that they really are a different gender. What I mean? I know there’s legal ramifications. I’m not talking about that of like HR rules and things like that. But what is there anything a manager or a colleague could do other than just be there for someone, even if they suspect they might not be able to say anything, they might not be able to the person might not be ready to hear anything. But how could we better support those colleagues or those people in our workplaces that we’re spending so much time with, and be there to support them, without scaring them, without overstepping, without offending any guidance on that.
Kate Brookes 42:33
May I offer a quick tip, and I’m not the tip yes and yes, something that I’ve given given a lot of thought to again, I think representation matters and words matter. And by that, I don’t mean that we should make sure that we have X percent of trans people working in our in our in our workplace, right? I just mean indicate to people that they’re who they are is accepted. So how can we do that when you’re speaking publicly, when you’re speaking to a group and referring to people insert, you know, whether he, she or they, prefers this coffee or that coffee. That is a subtle, just a little bit of a subtle hint that, that, wow, he, she, they. Certainly. There’s other things on the gender spectrum. There’s a but that’s a subtle hint that, wow, maybe I don’t have to be binary here. Maybe I don’t have to fit in a box here, and I think that little hint could make someone feel a little more comfortable. Second thing, when you hear somebody saying something that is unkind is transphobic, in the same way that the black community is not responsible, not responsible for making people not racist, and Jews are not responsible entirely for making people, making sure that people aren’t anti, anti semitic. The Trans community is not responsible for doing all the work. So these little subtle things, he, she, they calling somebody out in a respectful way. Because if you treat disrespect with disrespect, then it usually it goes. So those are just as as a mom and as a worker at a university part time gig. Those are things that I try to do right anyone else have something to add?
Jeannie Gainsburg 44:11
I so I actually I want to give credit where credit is due. Jacob Tobiah, who wrote the book Cissy, a coming of gender story, definitely sissy. I think it’s a coming of gender story. They wrote in their book that they think we need a new metaphor, rather than coming out of the closet. They like the metaphor of thinking of a snail coming out of a shell, because there’s a good part of your book. Yeah, thank you. Well, and again, it’s, it’s their it’s their idea. But I love that, because it basically it, you know, when a snail hides in its shell, we don’t, you know, think of the snail as being not brave or withholding or dishonest, right? Like we do somehow with people who are in the closet, like, what’s wrong with them? Why don’t they just come out, you know? Like, we’re we’re fine, we’re okay, you know, yeah, whereas. With a snail, you’re, like, that snail’s not coming out of its shell. You’ve scared it like there’s, there’s an environment problem. And I really like that, that reframe. And so if we think about the snail and the person that you’re talking about, maybe is in that shell, they’re they’re not feeling comfortable coming out. I like to say that if you work for a big company and you have, like, very few, or no out LGBTQ, plus people, your snails are hiding.
Maria Ross 45:23
So yeah, because they’re there. Yeah, they’re there.
Jeannie Gainsburg 45:27
So it’s not just as one person. So I think, you know, if we brought in that, and think, not only how can I help this person who I think might be struggling with their gender, but how can I help all the snails who are at our workplace and are not feeling safe and comfortable, right? So those are things like, you know, again, what Kate said that language so important not making assumptions. Let’s not say good morning ladies to a group of people who we, you know, sort of assume are women, but we’re just looking at them and making that call. Or, you know, we’re using gendered language, and we’re, you know, saying things like, Oh, what a gorgeous wedding ring. You know, what does your husband do like really being aware of our language and making sure that we are staying open, because you you can be sure LGBTQ plus, people are listening to this. They are listening to what Kate said. Oh, they just use the pronoun, you know, he, she and they. Oh, wow. They said partner. They didn’t say wife or husband. And then the visibility thing is huge, too. And I think that’s such a great place where allies can step up to the plate. You know, Hey, pride month, let’s have a huge pride month display. Or let’s, you know, have a table at the Pride festival. You know, these are all ways that you can show as an agency, that you are, you know, inclusive. And you know, these are just all things, again, that are going to create an environment where hopefully your snails won’t be frightened. Yeah. Oh, I
Maria Ross 46:43
love that reframe. And it’s, I think it’s so true, because even the little things, it’s, they’re watching for signals. We’re all watching for signals on if the world around us is safe or not, and there’s things that cisgender folks take for granted, because the world is designed for us, so we only notice the outliers, but there’s other people that need to see those signals to feel safe and know that it’s this is an environment, if and when I’m ready, I know that I will be accepted here. I know that I will find safety here. So I really appreciate those tips, because I think that might be something that people listening to this may be experiencing in their workplaces, or in, you know, in their community, in their friend group. You know, maybe there is a friend who it’s sort of like everyone suspects that they’re not really living their truth. But how do you actually broach that subject? Someone and Jana, I would just like to offer you an opportunity. Is there anything that that would have been helpful to you as you were really coming to terms and wanting to live your honest life,
Jayna Sheats 47:42
not being afraid for my life. No. I mean, sorry, I’m being glib, but because the premise of the novel is based on fact, it is entirely fiction. And yet, in a way, none of it’s fiction. And in the 1950s it didn’t have to be in rural Colorado. That’s just the environment that I could write about the most easily, because, because I had lived there. But it could have been in the middle of New York City in 1950s as a transgender woman, person, but, but it was the woman it’s harder to pass. And as a transgender woman, you had three choices. You could if you were had entertainment skills like Christine Jorgensen did, then you can make it there, because oddity is more tolerated. You’re not going to get an Academy Award, but you can make a living. The other two alternatives are, you pass completely and nobody knows, or you work the streets. That’s the way it was. And if you think that I’m exaggerating about that, Lynn Conway, who recently passed away just a few months ago, who was a electrical engineer whose work was in many ways responsible for the computers that we’re using here for this conversation, was forced out of IBM in 1968 for wanting to make her to wanting to come out, and had to start over in CONGEDO. And for the next 30 years, she was not known. And then somebody started to poke around the IBM archives. And so she then came out and became a very, very prominent and powerful ally and advocate for the next 20 years the University of Michigan, but that’s what she said about what she saw in 1968 so, and we’re going back to that. I mean, you know, parts of the country, as Kate said, are going back to it, and parts of it are not. So we’re, we’re splitting apart, and if we could figure out a way to split, come back together again, exactly,
Maria Ross 49:42
exactly. And I just want to ask one last question. Do you think we’ll ever get to a point where, as a culture, we’re not even using the word transgender anymore? We’re just referring to people as men or women or some other word? I mean that to me, that
Jayna Sheats 49:57
would be, that would be the idea. Well. And of course, it’s kind of like, you know, the colorblind society, you know, we are a few generations from even being able to think that way. I would like to hope that. And you put your actually, you underscored a point that, to me as a scientist, is annoying, and that is, there should be a good word for non binary people. You know, it’s just an awkward word, good phrase,
50:29
and, and, but
Jayna Sheats 50:31
that’s real and, and it should be just totally on an equal footing. And one should be able to, yeah, when we need a nomenclature, nomenclature Commission,
Maria Ross 50:46
we do. We do well, we could talk so much longer, but I just appreciate all of you. I appreciate all of you sharing your own life experiences and your written work to help all of us be better and be more inclusive. So thank you Kate. Thank you Jeannie. Thank you Jaina, for joining the conversation today, and we will have all of your links to all of you, all of your books, but just for folks, I want to just briefly remind them. Kate’s book is called transistor raising twins in a gender bending world, and that’s transistor not like transistor radio, but T, R, A, N, S, I, S, T, E, R, jeannie’s book is called the savvy ally, a guide for becoming a skilled LGBTQ plus advocate. And jana’s book is called Hannah’s ascent, and she is working on a book called transgender women and athletics. So we will await that when it arrives into the world.
Jayna Sheats 51:43
It should be called, my running title for that, by the way, is jeans, gonads and synapses. I don’t know if that’s going to stay or not.
Maria Ross 51:53
I love it. I love it. And like I said, we will have all the links to your websites in the show notes. But thank you all for this candid conversation and for being here. Thank you so much. Thank you, and thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Rate, review, follow, share with a friend or a colleague, and until next time, please remember cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathyedge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events, please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place. You.