What do psychological safety, your team’s performance, and sports coaching have in common? Today, you’re going to find out how belonging helps you innovate and perform beyond even what you thought possible.
Today, Diana Cutaia defines what we mean by “peace” and that it is more than just the absence of violence. She also breaks down psychological safety and how both of these concepts are related. We talk about why psychological safety is such a buzzword, and why some organizations are merely ticking a box and do not truly understand how creating an environment of belonging unleashes potential. We discuss how a leader’s individual behavior is important, but how to go further and address the environment as a whole. Diana shares a few fascinating epiphanies some clients have had when finally understanding what belonging really means. How to create a culture of psychological safety, and how it impacts performance and risk-taking.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Creating a better environment doesn’t happen accidentally. You have to remove the bad and intentionally replace it with something good.
- Move away from trying to make people “feel” like they belong. We just want people to belong. This is a shift in language we can begin to make today.
- Command and control leadership is not effective in every situation. If your goal is to help people develop new skills, you’ve got to find a way to reach people and create an environment in which they can learn.
“Psychological safety is not just this idea of the absence of harm, but it is the repair of harm and then the repair of systems that perpetuated that harm.”
— Diana Cutaia
Episode References:
- The Empathy Edge podcast on psychological safety:
- Minette Norman: Psychological Safety
- Susan Hunt Stevens: The ROI Of Psychological Safety
- Red Slice blog: What does psychological abuse at work look like?
About Diana Cutaia, President & Founder, Coaching Peace
Diana Cutaia founded Coaching Peace in 2012, but the work started for her 20 years earlier. Today her clients range from school districts to national organizations to global companies. The focus of Coaching Peace is to create positive and safe cultures that empower its members to lead with empathy and understanding.
Connect with Diana:
Coaching Peace: https://coachingpeace.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianacutaia/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CoachingPeaceConsultingLlc/
Instagram: https://instagram.com/coachingpeacelive
Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. What do psychological safety your team’s performance and sports coaching have in common? Today, you’re going to find out how belonging helps you innovate and perform beyond even what you thought possible. My guest today is Diana Kataria in 2012. She founded coaching piece, but the work started for her 20 years earlier when she coached youth high school and college sports teams. Today her clients range from school districts to national organizations to global companies. The focus of coaching piece is to create positive and safe cultures that empower its members to lead with empathy and understanding. Today Diana defines what we mean by peace, and that it’s more than just the absence of violence. She also breaks down psychological safety and how both of these concepts are related. We talk about why psychological safety is such a buzzword, why some organizations are merely ticking a box and don’t truly understand how creating an environment of belonging unleashes potential. We discuss how a leaders individual behavior is important. But how to go further and address the environment as a whole. Diana shares a few fascinating epiphanies Some clients have had when they fully understand what belonging really means and how to create a culture of psychological safety. And its impact on performance and risk taking. Take a listen. Welcome, Diana to the empathy edge podcast today. So excited to have you here.
Diana Cutaia 02:17
Thank you, Maria. Appreciate it. I’m excited to be here as well.
Maria Ross 02:20
I mean, we’ve been talking before recording started about being Italians, being from New York, being from Queens, oh my gosh, so many things in common. And, of course, trying to help the world be a more empathetic and compassionate and human centered place. So very excited to
Diana Cutaia 02:35
present. Yeah.
Maria Ross 02:37
So before we kick off, let’s talk a little bit about your story. How did you even get into this work? Tell us a little bit about coaching piece? And what are your goals with the work that you’re doing?
Diana Cutaia 02:49
That’s like, you’re like did you do that one minute. Go in there around it. But, you know, I started coaching piece because I saw the fact that the ways in which we were coaching, in particular sport at the time, were not we were directed around peace. And when I first started coaching peace, I thought that peace was just the absence of violence, whether that violence was structural, cultural, direct, whatever it might be, I thought, oh, peace is the opposite of war, right? Peace is when there’s no violence, there’s peace. And what what I found in the work that we’ve done is that peace is actually yes, it’s the absolute absence of violence, but it is also the presence of empathy. It is also the presence of unconditional safety, the presence of of belonging, right, that there have to be things that are there that actually create that peace, and that there are ways in which we can coach that. And when I started this business, you know, 12 years ago, I thought because I came from an athletic background, I was an athletic director, I taught at a college, around sport based youth development. We were training coaches all around the country to look at sport differently. I thought, oh, that’s all I’m going to do. I’m going to stay directed in this very, you know, kind of little niche around sport niche around sport. And I realized that many of the work that we did could apply to any group, any group that when you’re thinking about it, it might be you know, the outcomes might be different or working toward is different, but really, people are people, and how do we create environments where people are truly feeling like they are in a place of peace, and what that looks like and peace not being the absence of conflict, because conflict isn’t necessary and important at times. But it’s how we create that, that state of peace.
Maria Ross 04:48
Well, there’s so many parallels between I’ve had several sports psychologists, I cite Steve Kerr in my forthcoming book, the empathy of dilemma, because there’s so many parallels because when Ever you’re trying to get a group of people motivated to accomplish a common mission? That could be sport. That could be work. That could be a nonprofit that could be your parent teacher group, at your school, whatever it is. It’s about like a group dynamic. And how do you interact with each other and communicate with each other in a way that’s productive, and in a way that people can show up and be who they are and bring their contributions. So there’s lots of parallels. Yeah, I
Diana Cutaia 05:26
love totally 100%. Okay, so
Maria Ross 05:28
I know that with your work, especially you talk a lot about psychological safety. And we’ve done a few episodes on that. I’ll link to that in the show notes. But why do you think that’s such a big buzzword right now? And And in your opinion, who is doing it well? And who is pretending? And how do we even tell?
Diana Cutaia 05:46
Oh, gosh, you’re telling secrets here today? Oh, we
Maria Ross 05:49
are we’re spilling the tea,
Diana Cutaia 05:50
it lets them as the Gen Z or say, or say we’re giving main character energy today. Um, so I think that, you know, when we talk about psychological safety, we talk about any safety around, you know, an environment, we often think about safety in the sense of like, am I going to be hurt or harmed in some way. And as much as we’d like to create spaces where people cannot be hurt or harmed in any way? Physically, right, that should be a priority. Even that happens, right? Where accidents, things happen, you know, around that, that state of psychological safety, right? Will I feel like we talk about like, will my dignity be valued, respect, honored? My very, that, you know, very nature of me who I am? Will I be in a space where I feel like I can voice my opinions where I can say things, we often think in absolutes. And what I mean by that is this very binary, you either create an environment of psychological safety or you don’t, right. And that we think that psychological safety, physical safety, whatever it means, being means that there is the absence of harm, there is no harm that can be created here. It is not that there is always harm that will happen because we’re human beings, we’re flawed, we’re figuring out the world, right? There’s, there’s no perfection in that. psychological safety is not just this idea of the absence of harm, but it is the repair of harm. And then the repair of systems that perpetuated that harm. And those are the things that I think we need to begin to think about more, you know, we might say that, Oh, I, we did something and that really hurt your feelings, or that created an environment, we felt like, oh, I don’t think I can speak up. And I go private Lee to you. And I apologize around that. And we’ve repaired that in some ways. But the reason why I did that might be because the environment that I’m in contributes to the ways in which I respond and react. And I’m not willing to actually address that system. And that’s the thing that we have to begin to address. And it’s hard. But that’s the thing that we have to we have to address. So who’s doing well, who’s not doing? Well, I think everybody, to some extent trying in, you know, that environment, I think, when we don’t do it well is when we’re on willing to actually kind of turn the mirror and say, Wait a second, not only how did I contribute to this, but as a leader? How am I contributing to the conditions in which this happened? How am I contributing to the system and perpetuating the system that allowed this to be present and to happen? That I think is, is the thing that we are struggling to do? You know, we struggled to do, which is goes back to sport like, yeah, that we struggle to do with coaches, right? Coaches, why are managers not doing it? Because coaches also don’t do it? Either. We don’t walk into a locker room and say, You know what, gosh, I didn’t call that timeout when I should have today. And, uh, you know what, I really messed up on calling that play. Yeah, I shouldn’t. And you know, I’m not bringing the energy today, I really should have brought some more energy. We don’t do that. Because we have this ethic, that now I have to be the absolute leader. And that leader is flawless and makes no mistakes. And it doesn’t matter if I make a mistake, because I’m not going to call myself out on that. Because I lose power. And that’s the difference. That’s the thing that we want to change and make, right? There’s so
Maria Ross 09:36
much to unpack in what you just said. So first of all, I just want to point out your definition of peace and your definition of psychological safety are very similar in the fact that it’s not just the absence of something. It’s what are you replacing that with? Right? So a lot of companies talk about like, we don’t do this. We don’t we’re not racist. We’re not inequitable. We’re not this we’re but what are you what You replacing those negative actions with intentionally? What kind of environment? Are you trying to create that, that you’re hoping just doesn’t happen by happy accident? And related? It’s this idea that the individual behavior and repair is fine. It’s good, we should do that. But also, what is that environment that’s contributed to make that something that was that occurred to make that something that seemed acceptable in the moment at the time? And I don’t think we address that enough. And again, like I see so many parallels to racism and racial inequity, this idea of like, well, if I’m just nice to someone, then that solves it. Right? And no, there’s there’s a whole system around that there’s a whole environment around that, that we we can’t look away from. And so this idea of creating a psychologically safe environment is not just about what you do as an individual leader, or what you think you do one on one with people, it’s what kind of an environment are you creating for everyone else that’s swimming in that pool, so to speak,
Diana Cutaia 11:04
like, well, and it’s also like, when you bring up even racism, the idea of I say, I’m not racist, then if someone says you just engage in racist behavior, right, then I immediately am going to get defensive and be like, but I’m not racist. And the fact is, is that it’s this finality right like this, this one thing that then puts up this barrier, as opposed to saying, I am actively working to be anti racist. And someone says, You’ve just engaged in racist behavior, or what you just said, is perpetuating racism. I can say, oh, I need to correct that. What education do I need to do for myself? What repair do I need to do in this space? What do I need to learn to understand what that is, there is a reciprocal engagement that happens, where I’m this series of kind of learning that to be honest, that the generation coming up right now wants that they’re the generation is pushing us to do that. Yep. And, you know, we have to, we have to do that in some ways. And we also have to do it because the right thing to do,
Maria Ross 12:12
it’s exactly, well, I mean,
Diana Cutaia 12:14
you make the business case for this, and I’m like, No, I’m not gonna make the business case of being a good human now,
Maria Ross 12:18
right? Well, to be fair, though, that’s exactly what I did with my book. And what I do with this podcast, and what I did with my TEDx talk, is I was trying to get to the skeptics, because I felt like the moral imperatives weren’t working. So it’s like, okay, if we’ve got to talk about what’s in it for you to get you to transformation, because then once you’re empathetic, and once you are creating that environment, you can’t unsee that. So if I can, if I can get people to get there, through whatever, you know, whatever means necessary. That’s kind of the work that we do. And so that’s why there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of data, there’s a lot of research, there’s a lot of case studies out there, showing the quote, unquote, ROI. I even have, you know, a keynote talk called the ROI of empathy, just to help people understand that, yes, this is, this is good for society, but it’s actually also good for your business. And if that’s how I need to get you in the room to have the conversation, I know you’re going to be transformed from the outside. And because I’ve seen it happen. Right. So I think that’s a lot of this work is, is getting people to understand that and I’d love to hear from you with your clients. You know, what are what are the the issues they’re coming to you with? And sort of what is the before that they’re dealing with? And then what is the after that they seek? Yeah,
Diana Cutaia 13:35
that’s a great question. I think the before is, sometimes folks come to check a box. We’re supposed to do this work. We’re supposed to care about people. So, you know, heard one, right?
Maria Ross 13:51
I’ve heard this is a new thing. Her Gen Z loves this. So yeah, we’re trying to hire more younger people. We
Diana Cutaia 13:56
don’t care. But yeah, exactly. And I think like that, so sometimes they for that, and they say like, Hey, we’re, you know, we’ve got to do this stuff to make people feel like they belong. I think our goal is,
Maria Ross 14:13
can I just stop you for a second? I love that phrase to make people feel like they belong, rather than to help them belong. I love I love that different just,
Diana Cutaia 14:22
that’s yeah, that’s been that’s my biggest thing. We, I constantly say that, like, we have to stop saying, make people feel like they belong. Because we just want people to be belong. Just yeah. Have people belong? Yeah. Right. And, and it’s not like it’s so easy. Like just, you know, like, yeah, we’re a diverse group of people on a planet who have different experiences, different values, different ways of being like, I’m not telling folks like, it’s so easy to blend humanity In a way, yeah, it’s also not so hard. Right? There are ways to do that. And if you say like, wow, I kind of felt like I belong there a little bit, I feel like I belong. Yeah, I guess, you know, in that space instead of I belong, yeah. Right. Like, oh, I really belong in this place, you know, and what makes me feel like I belong in this place. Yeah. Which is so important. So thank you for that, like the call out on it. Because it’s so absolutely important that we shift that language.
Maria Ross 15:31
And I love that that because that’s a shift you can make the minute they come to you of like, this is what we think we want our outcome to be. And it’s like, is it I don’t think that’s, you don’t want to make them feel like it like you’re like, you’ve put this spell over them that makes them feel like everything’s okay when it’s not, but you actually want to make them belong, and help them belong? You know,
Diana Cutaia 15:50
it’s it, I’ll give you a story that I think is really important. There’s a about almost 20 years ago, now, we use juggling, like actual juggling as a way of like teaching a whole host of variety of skills. And about 20 years ago, I was doing a workshop and someone walked into workshop with a limb difference. So they had only one accessible hand that they could use in the struggling. And I made adjustments during the workshop in order to make sure that they were there. But it was clear that I was making adjustments in order to do that. And it was at that moment that I felt like, I’m never going to do that again. I’m never going to not know who’s coming in the room. And I met my wife 10 years ago, and she had said something around like belonging is this place where people don’t feel welcome. They feel like you were waiting for them. And that’s the moment that like, I was like, that’s it. So I’ll never know exactly who’s going to walk into a room all the time. So I need to make sure that I’m always planning, and I’m creating an environment that no matter who walks in that room, they know they belong in that room. So sometimes in our workshops, we will ask, does anyone you know have any physical limitations, anything, even just some like auditory or sensory things? Like, we want to make sure that we are as prepared as possible for the folks that are walking into the room. But then I’m also just educating myself all the time to make sure like, how do I do this? You know, how do I create an environment where no matter who’s there, you know, you belong there. And I was waiting for you. I knew you were coming.
Maria Ross 17:39
I love this because I and if if I have to correct myself, I will in the intro, but I believe it’s manette Norman, who has been on the show, she wrote the book, The boldly inclusive leader, and she talks about treating it like you’re hosting a dinner party. If you had an event where you were hosting a dinner party, you would be thinking about what dietary restrictions do some people have write? Who should sit next to each other? And who shouldn’t? How can I make the room smell better? How can I make it more inviting? How can I arrange seating, you think of all these things before you have an event, or you throw a dinner party and she talks about inclusivity? In the same way it’s being proactive about understanding who’s in the room. So to your end, you just raised it so eloquently. So you feel like they were waiting for you. And it’s not a commendation. It’s not coddling, it’s just enabling people to feel safe and feel like they belong. So that yeah, so they can do their best work. So they can innovate so they can collaborate so they can perform in the way that you want your team to perform. And so I would love like, kind of related to that, with your clients and with your work. What have you seen people? What are the big epiphanies they have when they realize the link between psychological safety and performance? Can you give us any examples?
Diana Cutaia 18:57
I think the biggest links necessarily that folks see between like, creating an environment where people know they belong, is they see more innovation and risk taking, that folks are less afraid of failing, less afraid of making a mistake. They’re more willing to kind of say like, let’s try it. Let’s see what happens. And in that space, then folks are like, oh, like, we didn’t even know what our potential was. Until we actually started to step outside of the things like we have a lot of very high performing groups that have this kind of like, almost they hold themselves back in some ways, but because they’re high performing, in the sense that they’re bringing in a ton of revenue or making you know the impact that they want to make. They believe that like they’ve kept their potential. They’re like, we’re where we need to be the Okay. And then you give them you the open of the space where now people feel like I can take a little bit more risks, I could challenge you on things. And now you see that aperture widened so much and the potential, not just like, grow up, but grow horizontally because you’re allowing other folks and other voices to be heard. And acknowledged in that way. And they’re like, Oh, I didn’t even know. Right, you know, it’s tightening. I
Maria Ross 20:31
don’t even know that that was an outcome I could get, right, like
Diana Cutaia 20:34
a Friday after we get there. But you’re like, No, you can get there. Because we didn’t set where the finish line was. Right? You were moving it all the time and figure figuring it out. And that by you moving it, you’re like, you know what, we got 100 yards today, can we go to 1/3? In the same amount of time? Like, yeah, let’s see, I don’t know. And if we can’t, then we pull it back, we figure out what we can do differently. But that gives them the ability to truly be innovative.
Maria Ross 21:07
That’s just fun. I have so many more questions for you. But I know we’re gonna run out of time. So can you talk to me about maybe what’s one of your favorite projects you’ve worked on, or clients you’ve worked on where you saw, like, a marked impact and a marked difference from them coming to you, maybe they came to, you know, you know, we talked earlier about sometimes they come to you to tick a box, sometimes they are coming to you because they want to do the right thing, or they want to change your leadership paradigm, or they want to create that culture that everybody wants to work for. But what has been one of your favorites that you can recall, or even favorite moments, where you’ve seen again, that that that impact of understanding what psychological safety can do for your, for your organization, and for your team? Yeah,
Diana Cutaia 21:52
it was a great example of a we were training some football coaches one time and this was going back, it’s my most favorite story, because it’s the most impact. And we were actually using juggling as a way to kind of teach to teach folks how hard it is to learn, right, and the just the mental gymnastics and emotional things that we go through, when we’re learning something new. And a bunch of other things around motivation, stuff like that. I had this one football coach, who in my best Boston accent was said, I’ve been coaching for 45 years. And you know, in the middle of like, we only got to like two tennis balls, we’re juggling, she gets so upset, and he kind of throws both tennis balls down. And he’s like, I’m required to be here. So I’m gonna stay. But this is, you know, expletive, expletive. And I’m not doing this. Yeah. And I said, Okay. And I was very nice. I was like, Do you want a bottle of water, like, you can just sit here, like, do whatever you want, like I wasn’t, you know, I didn’t want to shame him. I didn’t want to call him out in any way. Like, that’s fine. Um, then he was like, at times, he was kind of picking on the other coaches, like, you know, Jimmy, you can’t do this, like, look at you, you know, whatever. And I was like, I totally appreciate the fact that you’re not, you don’t want to participate, I just ask that you don’t interrupt the experience of other people, you know, and in the back of my mind, I’m like, Oh, you’re just playing into exactly what I want you to play into. But that’s where I was, like, letting go through. And at the end, we’re debriefing the activity and one of the other coaches, and he’s sitting there cross armed, and he’s not paying attention, you know, around and one of the other coaches was like, you know, I was really surprised at how hard that was, you know, given the fact that I’m an athlete, and I really like, it was going through my mind, like, what, why am I having such a difficult time with this? And he’s like, I really wanted to be like, I don’t know what this is about. And I don’t know why I’m doing this. And you know, all that. And another coach, I had asked him, like, what do you do when you get when you got frustrated? You know, he’s like, honestly, I was saying nice things about you in my head. He’s like, I didn’t know what you know. And each coach started to talk about how challenging it was for them to learn and what they were doing. And the coach who had sat down and was, you know, really being disruptive. He raises his hand. And he’s like, well, crap, he’s like, I get it. He’s like, I, if you would have said to me, when we were doing this, Hey, I taught you how to do this. Do it, just get it done. He’s like, I would have responded even worse, he’s like, but I was in a place where I didn’t know the skills and I didn’t want to be embarrassed in front of, you know, I’m the one that has the most coaching experience here. He’s like, I didn’t want to be embarrassed. He’s like, so I act out the same way my kids act out. I was responding the exact same way. And I would have labeled that kid a problem. And I would have said you’re not coachable. And he’s like, and now I just realized that I just wasn’t creating, I don’t create all the time that conditions for them to learn. Because all I do is punish them when they don’t get it. He’s like a new are trying to work with me and trying to figure it out. He’s like, but you also just kind of let me like, take a moment and not be part of it. And that, to me is like the always the moment that gets me that always drives me to continue to do this work. Like he got it. We behave in ways sometimes that are even outside of what we want to because the conditions that we’re in, don’t make it safe for us to be anything else. Right? And it was a lesson for me to like, how do I create safety in a place where like your peers are watching you? And what do we do? And how do I create that? We make changes after that? around it. But that is the moment when you’re like, oh, somebody gets it, you know, we’ve had a lot of folks will do workshops around understanding the myth of the meritocracy. And how like, not everybody starts at the same place. Not everybody has the same access. And I’ve had several folks that come back and say, my mind is still blown about that I still I view the world completely differently now. And I’m telling all my other friends to view the world completely differently. So long answer to your question, but like, the often times, we don’t necessarily get to impact the system. We impact enough actors in the system, then it exponentially grows. And we feel like that’s that’s the movement that we’re trying to create. I
Maria Ross 26:53
love everything about that, because it’s this idea of, you know, what is a leaders role. And I, I’m talking, I talked about it in the empathy edge, I talked about it in my keynotes, I’m talking about it in the new book, that leadership has changed the old, simple command and control doesn’t work. For every situation, it’s it’s not going to be effective. And if your goal is to help people perform, if your goal is to help people develop new skills that will be useful to you and the team and the organization, you’ve got to find a way to reach people, you’ve got to find a way to help create the environment so that they can learn. So they want to learn so that they’re not scared to learn. And so that ultimately you get your goals met. And if we want to be really crass about it, it’s so you get your bonus at the end of the year, like I and you know, we talked about this too before about this idea of like, sometimes that moral imperative isn’t enough. But I’ve seen executives who do things for optics, and then they just love the response they get. They’re surprised by the response. They get there. They’re surprised by the lesson that they learn. And they want they want more of it. They’re like get me sorry that I love the way that felt. I love the way that what that resulted in. I love the way my team feels. I love the way that they’re engaged now. And so yeah, let me do more of this and see how it goes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love it so much. Okay, so we could talk for hours, but we’re short on time. So I’m going to put all your links in the show notes. Wonderful. But where’s the best place? If someone’s like exercising right now and listening to us? Where’s the best place they could find out more about you and your work?
Diana Cutaia 28:37
I mean, you know, definitely go to our website coaching piece.com Folks are always welcome to email me at Diana at coaching piece.com and get more information in any way they can.
Maria Ross 28:48
Awesome. Awesome. And can they connect with you on LinkedIn? 100% 100% Okay, I love LinkedIn. I always promote the etiquette. Make sure you send her a note that you heard her on this podcast. 100 personalize your invites. Diana, thank you so much. It was such a pleasure getting to know you and thank you for your friend to help us kind of deconstruct psychological safety a little bit.
Diana Cutaia 29:12
Absolutely. I’ve loved it. appreciate all the work you’re doing. Thanks.
Maria Ross 29:16
And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please share it, rate it, review it, share it with a colleague and friend. And until next time, please remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be calm. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your soup. power use it to make your work and the world a better place.
