What if the key to leading others with empathy… is learning how to lead yourself first?
Today’s guest, Heather Younger, is here to show us how self-leadership isn’t just a personal development buzzword — it’s the foundation of truly impactful, caring leadership that achieves real ROI. As a global expert on active listening and workplace culture, Heather has helped Fortune 100 companies transform the way they engage employees—starting from the inside out.
In this episode, we learn about Heather’s journey as a culture bearer and customer experience professional, what self-leadership is, and why it matters – why doing the inner work helps you lead with grace and drive results, and why treating employees with care isn’t just a moral choice but a business strategy that drives innovation and performance. She shares powerful examples and offers actionable first steps to help you lead more effectively, take ownership of your career, make smarter choices, and advocate for yourself.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Listen in for…
- What self-leadership is and why it matters.
- How can you change your office culture to an empathy-driven culture?
- The power of getting curious within yourself.
- The power of giving and receiving feedback within your sphere of influence.
“Take back your own power to lead yourself in the way you, intuitively, already know you’re supposed to be doing.” — Heather R. Younger
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About Heather R. Younger: CEO, Keynote Speaker, Author
Heather R Younger, J.D., CSP, is a trusted contributor to leading news outlets, like Forbes, Fast Company, Bloomberg, NBC, and ABC, and one of the world’s leading experts on Caring Leadership® and active listening at work. She is the visionary Founder and CEO of Employee Fanatix, a preeminent employee engagement and workplace culture consulting firm for Fortune 100 companies. Employee Fanatix conducts annual research on workplace culture, relying on employee voices for what is relevant now, to help companies redefine their culture strategy. Heather has personally read over 30,000 employee surveys and facilitated over 100 employee focus groups, including her signature “Art of Active Listening Sessions.”
With over 25 years of successful management of teams, she has worked in customer experience, sales, and large account management for multi-million dollar accounts and multiple industries such as tech, staffing, healthcare, professional services, the public sector, and the financial sector. She’s a renowned keynote speaker, drawing insights from current data and putting into practice what she teaches in her Caring Leadership Transformation Model™.
Heather is an award-winning leader in the area of Employee Engagement, as recognized by Inspiring Workplaces, is a LinkedIn Learning course partner, a 3-time bestselling author, a TEDX speaker, and the host of the popular Leadership With Heart Podcast.
Connect with Heather:
Employee Fanatix: heatheryounger.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/heatherryounger
Facebook: facebook.com/HeatherRYounger
Instagram: instagram.com/heatherryoungerofficial
Her new book: The Art of Self-Leadership
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books
Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Maria Ross 00:04
What if the key to leading others with empathy is learning how to lead yourself first? Today’s guest Heather younger is here to show us how self leadership isn’t just a personal development buzzword. It’s the foundation of truly impactful, caring leadership that achieves real ROI as a global expert on active listening and workplace culture, Heather has helped fortune 100 companies transform the way they engage employees, starting from the inside out. She’s one of the world’s foremost experts on caring leadership and active listening at work. She’s the founder and CEO of employee fanatics, a consulting firm trusted by Fortune 100 companies to transform workplace culture through employee driven insights. Heather has personally read over 30,000 employee surveys and led more than 100 focus groups, a now four time best selling author, TEDx, speaker, LinkedIn learning instructor and host of the leadership with heart podcast. Heather brings 25 years of experience across multiple industries and delivers practical tools that leaders can use to build more engaged, compassionate teams. Her latest book is The Art of self leadership. Discover the power within you and learn to lead yourself. This practical guide empowers professionals to take control of their career trajectory and workplace experiences by developing a mindset of self advocacy and leadership. In this episode, we learn about Heather’s journey as a culture bearer and customer experience professional, what self leadership is and why it matters. Why doing the inner work helps you lead with grace and drive results, and why treating employees with care isn’t just a moral choice, but a business strategy that drives innovation and performance. She shares powerful examples and offers you actionable first steps to lead more effectively. Take ownership of your career, make smarter choices and advocate for yourself. This was a gem. Take a listen. Welcome Heather younger to the empathy edge Podcast. I’m so excited to talk to you today about self leadership and the role that empathy plays in making that successful for people and getting them the ROI that they deserve. So welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Maria. Yeah, it’s really great. And I would love for you, as I do with all my guests, to start with sharing your story and how you even got into this work. I know you have some interesting twists and turns that have happened in your career. So can you share that with our audience, briefly? Yes.
Heather Younger 03:24
I mean, from stage, I share, like, the beginning story. I’m not going to go that way back. I’m going to just talk to you about the kind of the corporate part, and that is, I was working in an organization, leading customer experience at the time, and it was an organization I was going through a merger of five companies, and the culture, like most murders, they’re not very fun for the people inside in most cases. And this one was particularly not going well. And so I felt my own self, not, you know, like my mindset wasn’t great. Everybody around me was wondering was going to go on layoffs felt impending. It was just a lot of fear. So I went to the head of HR in the office and I told her, like, something’s got to change. We got to do something. I felt like I just needed to own what the change I was seeking myself. And so she said, You’re right. You should go do something about that. And I’m like, I should go do the way what I’m leading customer experience. I’m not in HR, like, yeah, and it was because I’d already acted like an ambassador, or someone who uplifted others kind of this culture bear, really, to be honest, my whole life, I was just always that voice for other people. I started in the customer space when it seemed space, went into employee space, and so I brought people from the different companies who already kind of expressed desire to do something about it, to be to make the merger a success. And we started to do things that broke down the walls of his trust. Really just started to gather people together, and it started to work. We could see that more people listen to one another, the more that people feel valued and heard in the process, the more they were more willing to lean in to make the merger happen. And then there was a layoff that was like 200 people. I was in that first round of people, but in that moment, I realized that I was that kind of intermediary. I was the voice between the people, customers, employees, back to the leaders who could do something about the experience. That was taking place, and I could do it in a way that spoke their language. I understood that at a kind of a deep level, and so it helped me be on my journey to where I’m at now. But, you know, there was a lot tied up into that, like title and having that job. And, you know, as a leader, I’d been leading teams for over 20 years, even at that point, and I knew that leading people was my thing, kind of going back to this empathy idea. I knew it was because I could always, I could sense where their shifts and things were and and then I would act appropriately. So that’s kind of how I got on the journey to the work I’m doing now. Yeah,
Maria Ross 05:35
well, it makes a lot of sense. I was in change management early in my career, right at the beginning, and the culture piece is so underestimated in terms of making anything successful, whether it’s merger, an acquisition, or even just catalyzing growth. And you know, we talk a lot now about culture being the biggest competitive advantage you can have, but I still believe that there are leaders who don’t quite understand that, and they don’t understand what to do with that information. So before we dive into our topic, given your work and given that experience, what do you think leaders don’t understand about catalyzing culture for bottom line benefit? I
Heather Younger 06:15
know for sure that they don’t understand the power they possess, and I mean the power to uplift or the power to put down, the power to create kind of a flourishing culture, or that want to really like damage it. So I truly believe, based upon all the years of research and working with organizations and teams and focus groups and surveys and oh my goodness, all the research, that it’s that culture is a byproduct of the leaders that are in the organization, and what we allow them to do, and how they behave towards others, and how they make other people feel in the environment. So culture, very generally, is kind of like how people feel inside the walls, behind the team screens or the zoom screens based upon the behaviors we allow the things that we recognize, the things that we compensate. And so it’s an elusive thing, but boy, it’s felt so deeply when it’s done well or not. So it is our behaviors that form the culture. Yeah. And leaders start off. They’re the ones who start it. They start the wave of whether it’s positive or negative. They start it, yeah, one of the biggest reasons why I just have focused so much on leaning into them. How do I continue to fill them up? How do I pour in the dim? How do I help them undersee and understand their choices? That how their choices drive culture well,
Maria Ross 07:32
and they absolutely set the tone right. And I talked to a lot of teams where they say, but, you know, if we want to build an empathetic culture, but who are we? I’m not the CEO, I’m not a VP, and I do talk about the importance of create, of being a leader within your micro culture and within your own sphere of influence, you can create that team that outperforms and people will start to wonder what’s going on over there, right? So there’s a way to do it from a grassroots level, but man, is it a lot easier when you’ve got the role models, and you’ve got the folks at the top. And I love that you said it’s also about the behaviors, because when we’re doing a lot of this work, we have to. We can’t just have these pretty values that are bullet points on a poster on the wall, but when we talk about culture, it’s, you know, how does work get done here, and how do we treat each other in the course of doing that work, and that’s where you can get unique and distinct cultures. But to your point, what are the behaviors that represent the culture that we seek, and how are we operationalizing that? What are the policies? What are the reward structures? What are their hiring guidelines? How are we making that real for people? And I think that’s where a lot of leaders struggle of, oh, it may just be this feel good thing, so if I’m just nice to everybody, then that means I’m creating a good culture. And we’ve got to make it deeper than that. So let’s take a step back and talk about, you know, your work around self leadership. Just a reminder to folks, your book is called The your latest book is called The Art of self leadership, discover the power within you and learn to lead yourself. Because like you, I really believe that all of this starts at home. We’ve got to get our own house in order before we can even open up to leading, influencing, empathizing with others. So tell us in your world and your work, what is self leadership, and why does it matter?
Heather Younger 09:22
It’s really like an inward journey to shine more brightly, reveal our brilliance, more brightly externally to others. And it’s and it kind of spirals up to self awareness and resilience. And I think, you know, one of the things about self leadership, and this is so interesting for me, because I Well, it came out in this year started, obviously, wrote it last year, and it became an epiphany for me, like all things do through my human interactions, whether it’s through, like, quantitative research, qualitative research, or just kind of like, you know, being around people and audiences, and it is really hard for us to have the strong foundation of leadership. Leadership, where people really are attracted to us, that like they want to follow us, they’re attracted to our journey what we represent, if we are not leading ourselves well with, again, that strong foundation of self awareness and resilience and empathy and all of those things that are embedded in just being good humans. And so what I noticed over the years, as I was speaking audiences or even in focus groups, that people who, even who we think of, are those who have authority at work, the managers, directors, kind of middle level, feel the most hopeless, yes, in so many cases, because they don’t kind of the scenario you just presented. I’m not the CEO. I’m not the CEO. So what can I do? I’m feeling like my hands are tied, right? And so I say that not to be that’s a lack in empathy, as I say it, because I’ve been there, done that. I was a director level for the majority of my manager and so I often felt like my hands are tied. And I would be the most frustrated when I kept giving my power away, when I would keep saying things like, well, they’re, you know, the executive team is not going to allow that. The budget doesn’t allow that. The this that. And so when I became very much like a victim of the circumstance, is when I lost my edge. It’s when I lost my ability to lead in the most powerful way possible. So this whole idea of stop waiting for someone else to be your green white, stop waiting for somebody to give you access. Stop waiting for someone to say it’s okay at your time or validate who you are. Is where the self leadership bug was born in me, and now I’m really trying to pass it out. I’m just saying, like, you know, yes, there are limitations, yes, there are real things that are in the workplace that might serve as barriers, and what are we going to do about it? And now that’s where I’m at, I’m kind of like, stop giving yourself excuses. And I’m saying this to me. So I’m saying this to me too. But yes, for the longest time, I waited for someone to tell me it was okay to take more time for me. I waited for someone else to tell me it was time for me, it was okay for me not to accept as many speaking engagements or so many this and that I would wait for that. And finally, like in fact, my son, who now we just dropped off last week to the United States military Naval Academy at Annapolis. He said that he would say to me, like, why are you coming back home in between all your gigs? Like, why are you doing that when it makes no sense, when you’re going from one place to one place, we don’t really recognize you’re here anyway. Why are you doing that? And I would always feel guilty. I have four kids, and, of course, and I I would want to be come back. And finally, I’m like, yeah, why am I doing that? So then, like, why, at that point he was 14? Like, why am I waiting for a 14 year old to give me permission to do the thing that’s best for my own physical right? But this is the kind of thing we all are doing, like a lot, we all find that whatever it is, yeah, we’re waiting for permission for something. So self leadership says, Take back your own power to lead yourself in the way you intuitively already know you’re supposed to be doing it like, Why do you have to wait for someone to tell you to listen to your team members in a way they that makes them feel heard? Why do you need to have somebody tell you it’s okay to show care and concern for your team who’s looking to you for guidance every day from like somebody who’s not even inside your space every day. Why are you doing so? These are the things I’m wondering prompting people right is having them really reflect on the choices they make, how it impact their own mental, physical, financial health, all of it, and how that then extends out to people outside of them?
Maria Ross 13:15
Absolutely. I mean, we’ve got to break those unconscious patterns that for whatever reason, whether it’s our upbringing or workplace we had before or negative role models of leadership. We don’t have to accept that. That’s the paradigm, and in fact, that’s what the culture and the workplace and the incoming talent generations are demanding of us now, is we’ve got to let go of those old paradigms and think about where they came from. What I hear, what I the common theme I’m hearing across all of what you’re saying is we’ve got to be conscious, and we’ve got to be intentional, and it’s okay for us to question why we’re making decisions the way we’re making them. Yep, the level of
Heather Younger 13:50
evolution, or, like, I call it today, I call it a metamorphosis. It really does make me think of that for myself personally, and I’m hoping to get, like, to take people on that journey so that they can get there too. But as I say, some of these things, I think, you know, on one part of me, because I’m like, empathy is my biggest strength. It’s like, it’s massive relatability, all those things, right? And as I say, one ear says, Oh Heather, you’re being too hard on them. Oh Heather, you’re, you know, make sure that they know that you’re not perfect, or that you also and I did this thing with, like, hearing one side and letting that one side stop me from saying the things that actually needed to be said, Yes, still from a place of care and concern, but I would take a little bit more of that hard edge away, right? And I think again, the last couple years, I realized number one, I needed my own tough love, so I needed to get my own stuff a hard edge, and also give people permission to say, Sure. I mean, this might be more of a one that woman thing, but I do. I know that this resonates with men too, which is, which is, sure it’s okay to, like, hear that side and kind of make sure that we’re relating to the other people on the other side, and make sure that they understand that we’re human too. And so the vulnerability and the relatability and empathy is so important, and at the same time. I need to draw a line. You need to draw a line that says I understand, and it’s no longer good enough, right? That’s what I can be. I’ve realized that for me, the metamorphosis for me was other people had already been seeing it, this whole ability to be empathetic and compassionate and also hold such a strength and presence about me, yes, but what I was doing is I was kind of ignoring that second side for the side that I thought was more me, was maybe more valued, like all those things, right was so it ended up being a little bit more externally focused. And I thought, yeah. And I realized, yeah. How the hell Heather, did you get through all the things you’ve had in your like, backstory as a child, growing up, and then having the kids and all the things, Yeah, how’d you get through that? Was it always empathy and compassion? Heck, no, it wasn’t. It was not. It was having a strength of resolve, yes, having the resilience and sticking to skin, having a vision and values that are strong and unshakable, like I had those things, but I was really downplaying those. Yes, absolutely, I’m saying so my own metamorphosis and growth is where, like, the books I write, the things I speak about, are all I’m personally living them. This is not something like, like a theory tell you about this thing that I’ve never done. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Integrity is a big value of mine. So for me, I have to be aligned, yes, and
Maria Ross 16:19
the alignment is so important, I think so there’s so many things that you spoke about. I’m like, yes, yes. You know, my work is about getting people to get rid of this either or leadership paradigm. Like I’m either empathetic or I’m high performing. I’m either empathetic or I’m holding people accountable. We’ve got to get to a place where it’s integrated, just like we are as human beings. We’ve got to be able to balance both of these things to be true at the same time that you can be empathetic and be a high performer, and you can be empathetic and make really hard business decisions, including having to let people go, if that’s what needs to be done, but you can do it in a way that aligns for you. You can do it with compassion and with preparation and with intention and with respect for their humanity. And so, you know, it’s funny, because I always talk to leaders about being an empathetic leader. Is not about lowering the bar for your team. Oh yeah, it’s about supporting people to get to the level you expect. That’s what we mean by empathetic leadership. It doesn’t mean letting everyone slide, because that’s people pleasing. That’s not empathy, and it’s not leadership, right?
Heather Younger 17:24
It’s not, it’s not, in my word, it’s not caring leadership. Because caring leadership means that I don’t want you to flail like you’re going to flail if I give you no direction, if I expect nothing from you, if I don’t hold you accountable, and then the team on the outside is watching me with you, going, where did they get all this treatment from this special treatment? How come there seemed to be so much bias towards that person. So then it’s you’re not showing caring leadership towards the people that are looking outside of that interaction, that relationship. So yeah, there’s a lot of balance to be had, but it is interesting how, even how the leaders are generally just having that balance. There is just a hard one for sure.
Maria Ross 17:59
So the balance is key. And like you pointed out earlier, you know, it’s that middle level that’s those are the people I wrote the last book the empathy dilemma. That’s sort of my love letter to them. It’s they’re the ones being squeezed from both ends. They’re trying to balance the demands of the business with the demands and needs of their people, and they often feel like they can’t win right, especially whether it’s having to execute on a strategy or on a decision that they don’t personally believe in, right? Sometimes they have to do that as part of leadership because it’s the right business strategy for the organization. Which
Heather Younger 18:32
can be hard, which can be hard, I teach a lot about when I talk about inclusion, I’m talking about using a voice of people and to help us drive strategy so that in most cases, or if you can over index on the listening or including voices in your decision making, those decisions are going to be way more grounded. Oh, and if the people that gave you the input were felt that they could be truthful in the process, even better, because that means, like when they’re giving the feedback, your strategies will be grounded in reality of the people who are actually serving the customer or serving each other, right, or serving the mission, yeah? And so, yeah, I think there’s just, like, there’s so much complexity in just what we do in the workforce, for the workforce, right?
Maria Ross 19:13
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s also about, you know, this is why inclusion, diversity, equity, all of that, the fuel that makes that run so you can get all the benefits out of different points of view that can help you make better business decisions is empathy. Because if I don’t have empathy, then I’m not going to value your life experience, I’m not going to value your perspective. I’m not going to value your point of view, because I’m still going to think that I’m right and my way is the right way, right but, and you’ve, I know you’ve been privy to the data and the research that shows that we do make better business decision when we have decisions, when we have more points of view looking at it, right? You’re looking at it from a different angle, and you’re saying, I see a risk you don’t see, or I see an opportunity you don’t see. And so it’s all goodness for the bottom line, you know, we talk about, you know. Why it’s not just, you know, you mentioned what in our pre call, why it’s not just a moral choice, but it’s a business strategy. So talk more about that, and maybe some stories from your work about companies proving the ROI of both self leadership and leading with
Heather Younger 20:15
care. Yeah, it’s so interesting because Gary Ridge, he was the CEO of the WD 40 company, and I can think of him as a strong self leader and a caring leader, for sure. So when he first took over, I want to say they were like 300 and something million in revenue, and something clicked in him where he realized the way that he was leading and that the leadership team was leading was first and foremost, just not the way he wanted to be led from a from kind of like a moral, human dignity, like prospect, connection, relationship perspective. But at the same time, he realized it wasn’t making great business sense to do what they did. They weren’t very human centric and more process focused. And so what he did, this is kind of a strong self leadership trait. He took it upon himself to go back to get us to get, like a master’s in leadership, or something like that. And he ended up being taught under Ken Blanchard, who is, like the one of the foremost people. And, you know, oh my gosh, I’m started down this road of leadership. And he said, like, I realized through all of my learnings that there was a better way that we needed to really meet people where they were at. We needed people to feel seen. We needed to elevate people. We needed to uplift. Like, his view of how to lead really changed, but he initially had to take it upon himself to say, I know what I don’t know, and it’s probably hurting us, right? And that’s the strong self leadership component of like, the self awareness of understanding. I got to go do something different. So he goes and does this, gets his masters, and then starts to go with his leadership team. Like, here are the things we’re going to do. Here’s going to be our new pillars. And within, I don’t know, with by the end of his time, I’ll say he served for like, 20 years as a CEO and I they, he left the company as like, a $3.5 billion market cap organization, and he truly believes it was what he would do. So he would do things like, as a CEO, even come down in the morning, greet people as they’re coming into the employee entrance, and like, tell him, like, have a great day. And he’s Australian, so he has this good day, and he has a certain accent and stuff, but he just take it upon himself to do the things that made people feel seen and valued and instrumental players on the team, and it was a huge ri for them. And then there’s a small, much smaller company. Daniel McCollum is a great leader, and he’s somebody who same kind of thing. His epiphany was like, I don’t think, I don’t think I’m looking at this leadership thing right. And again, it wasn’t like, here’s my strategy to have more money. It was, again, more about humanity, 100% I’m supposed to. Like, he was more mission. They felt like a mission. And he did tech consulting, so he ends up being, like one of the bigger Salesforce tech consulting kind of companies and around the world. And he started doing all these other things that were mission oriented. And he had all kinds of, like little minuets and stories of where it was a turnkey point for him, yeah, but when they made the decision, when he made decision to focus on helping people find their personal mission and the connection the work that was to be done at in the tech consulting firm. And when he really started to lean into that focus for people and individuals, same exact thing, they grew like leaps and bounds, still growing amazingly, because he this particular leader, decided to take on that different angle, made a conscious effort, and then made sure his leadership team follow along, and then they would do things, you know, to value, to evaluate, and then to value that for the leaders as they went along. So and as we said earlier, all you know, the leader has the leaders at the top. Have to get it, but it has got to be operationalized. It has to be proceduralized. It has to be, you know, what are the things you recognize? What are the things you penalize? What do you fire for? What do you hire for? You have to ask yourself those questions. That’s how you get to the bottom of how we change the culture to an empathy driven culture, to a caring, focused culture, to whatever those things are, right? It has to stop and start at the top, but it’s to be operationalized, for sure. These
Maria Ross 23:56
are great examples, because it’s also, you know, we’ve got to change the paradigm that any of this is coddling. We’re not coddling when we’re taking care, let’s be frank, when we take care of our assets, right? When we charge up our phones, when we, you know, invest in capital expenditures in a warehouse and make sure that we’re doing maintenance on our machines. We know what it means to take care of our assets and our employees our greatest asset. They’re our greatest competitive edge because of the innovation that we can unlock in their minds and their ability to creatively problem solve. And so taking care of your assets is not coddling. And again, it doesn’t mean you’re not making tough business decisions. It doesn’t mean you’re not holding people accountable, and it doesn’t mean you’re making decisions that everyone’s going to love and be happy with all the time. And that’s the thing. I work with a lot of leaders who, not only, you know, the ones that are skeptical about empathy, but the ones that over index on empathy to the point that they’ve now left empathy, and they’re they’re dipping into people pleasing. Yeah. And we’ve got to find that balance of you know to your point. And I believe this is why I love your work so much. So much of it starts with you. It starts with the internal game of you being grounded enough and secure enough and present enough that you can take on other points of view without defensiveness or fear, and you can only do that when you’re, you know, in your terminology, when you’re practicing self leadership.
Heather Younger 25:27
Yeah? So it’s an inside job. It’s an inside job 100% within like 80. Like I said, this is an evolution for me, yeah? Just so, just for those who are listening, it’s like, understand that. I think I’d always been talking about our choices. So, you know, her message was always like, we get to choose how we show up for others we get to but what I really wasn’t diving in nearly enough is how the choices that we get to make for ourselves, yeah, and it is so critical. And so when we talk about empathy for others, care for others, like, yes, it’s important. Again, that was like 80% of my body of work is there, yeah. And then I realized, wait a second, we got I’m going to do some backpedaling here, 100% because I don’t think I went deep enough to tell people, number one, how valued they are, how worthy they are as humans. Because if we have a lot of hurt, broken, scattered leaders in the world, and now they’re going to the workplace, and we’re saying, Go care for other people. Go show more empathy. Yeah, and we they haven’t even figured out how to do that for themselves. They don’t give themselves enough care. They don’t understand what their values and the strength their values. They don’t understand how to receive feedback in a way that helps them learn and grow. They don’t, you know, they don’t understand that grace and excellence and progress are more important to perfection. Like there’s just these are some of the components that are embedded in self leadership. But once we start to evaluate what those are, and we can, you know, lean into those and try to work to get better at them, because we’re not going to get perfect. I mean, this is the whole point. Here is that we’re all on a journey. We have choices. We’re going to make some bad ones. We got to we understand that we’re just on a journey of learning and growth, right? And people around us when we give ourselves grace, as much as we give other people that we are learning to be better, to do different things, and we give it to other people, and they see our change happening, they’re much more likely to do those same things and to buy into whatever kind of vision or journey we put forward for them, because they can see we’re people who are constantly in this learning, growing phase, open to feedback, open to change, and that means they’re going to be We’re just all we’re doing is showing them the way Exactly.
Maria Ross 27:24
And when you put the ego aside and you adopt that growth mindset, no matter what level in the organization you are, you’re not only doing it for yourself, and you know, don’t do it behind closed doors, like tell your team you’re working on your leadership skills, you’re improving. What an example to say you’re never done learning. And even though I’m the leader and I’ve got the title, I know I have more to learn as well. You are motivating everyone on your team to adopt that mindset, to not get so fixed in their mindset that at this point I know everything there is to know. That’s not how you get innovation, that’s not how you get creative problem solving. That’s not how you get new ideas that are going to lead the market. It’s that curiosity. And what I love about your work is it’s about showing curiosity in yourself, like getting curious and getting intentional. Yeah, why am I making this decision? Why do I believe this narrative? Why am I acting this way? What’s triggering me about this one situation or this one person, and getting curious about your responses so that you can respond rather than react
Heather Younger 28:25
to everything. So absolutely, I love it. Yeah, I love that. All right, let’s
Maria Ross 28:30
talk practical. Let’s talk about some actual ways that people can they improve their relationships, they can advocate for themselves, but also take ownership of their leadership style and their careers. I mean, I would keep you here another three hours if I could. But can you share some highlights? Can you share maybe yes, two or three of the things that come up over and over again for you and your clients,
Heather Younger 28:53
I would say the first thing is understanding the role that our values play in everything that we say yes or no to it’s critical. So when we think about projects that come across our desk, this became real for me when I had come out of a year was my busy speaking year, and I realized that I wasn’t home that much, and it was part of that conversation I had with my son, right? But I wasn’t home as much, and I have four kids, and I’m the only child, but I can’t. I do value being around for them, and I do value, you know, when I’m here, I do want to be more present. It’s not just being here. It’s about being like, present when I am with them, yeah. And so I realized, like, family was so important and integrity was important, but it wasn’t as important as I thought it was because media originally, right? Like, because of my actions. It was like, right? You can say integrity is your value, but what do your actions say? In comparison, you could say, family is a priority, but what do you do? And so I would say for people to do a values audit and to say, like, what are my top five values, and then start writing down and jotting down, what’s the evidence that those values are real or not just? Something I aspire to, right? And then where are the gaps? Because I feel like that self leadership process for me, I can’t even tell you how of a big wake up call it was for me. And I like, I remember going to this retreat. I’m going to the retreat, and I everybody else the retreat. They’re like, oh, and I want to have so much more business. And they’re like, writing all these things out about scaling and all these things. And I’m like, hell no excuse my French. Heck no, Maria, I am not trying to do like, more, yeah. I’m actually trying to maximize the current and make sure that I that family relationships, the things that really, truly are important, end up really elevating in this mix. And then I, then the world and my life just started to move in that direction. It really did, because I, because once those things my values became clear, I would say no to a whole bunch more, and I also wouldn’t fight for things that I knew that weren’t really the thing I wanted, right? It’s very this is like, this is it’s critical and it’s hard critical, yeah, it’s really hard work. It’s hard work to say no, but it’s like, then, once you’re in a situation where your boss, a team member, a project, something, whatever it has happened, where you’re faced with, do I do this? Do I do this? Just to show that I’m doing this, do I do this? Then you can say, you know, no. And actually you could sleep well, and you can feel good. And the other thing is, one of the things I talk about is like, oh my gosh, the thing that happens with all of us, with the comparison, holy smokes. Like we just, if we could just get off social media, I think then it would all go away. It’d be much better. Yes, right? And so, but what would happen is, once I started going through this values exercise, now, when I would see, so I’m a speaker, and once I would see, like, all these people are speaking, and they’re so busy, and I’d be like, Oh my gosh, I’m a failure. Like, this is what was happening in my brain. This Is What Happens all of us, depending on what you’re wherever you’re tracking whatever it is.
Maria Ross 31:44
And leaders are the worst too, because leaders are in that Echelon where they’re comparing against other leaders. And totally, yeah, yeah.
Heather Younger 31:50
Which projects are they on? And how many, like, whatever, have you hired 25 more people to scale this thing like, this is the thing that’s always happening. We’re watching from afar. And so I was watching, and then when I made, when I kind of decided based upon the values and the priorities that I had. Now, I could look at other people and be like, good for them, yeah, and not be like, and I want that. I’d be like, hey, and I would celebrate them more, and I would find myself like sending them voice notes, like congratulate, and just really feeling good for them because they were doing whatever their wheelhouse was or whatever, and I was in mine, and now I could live in my own brilliance. And when I did that, my team would be like, Oh my gosh. Like, she’s really elevated. Like, this is her, and I love this, and now I’m inspired to do this too, right? So now I’m leading in an entirely different way, right? Right, right? So I think that values is a big one. The other thing is, the role of feedback, giving and receiving feedback, 100% is so critical. Like, you know, I remember when I got my first 360 feedback. Here it was. The funny thing is, like, it was from my manager perspective. He had, I think, six or seven direct reports, and I was the best of all of them. And I was still, like, an F so, like, we all were F spotted, like an F plus, it’s just gay, right? And I see the feedback, he was a whole nother specimen, let’s say, but when I see the feedback, it was him. And I see colleagues, I see people and I and the whole time I’m like, Oh my gosh. Like, who said that? I wonder, because this manager, anybody else, right? Who said that? Right? And then I sold for three months. And then, like, I want to say, like, at one point, I pick it up again, in three months, I look at it, and I’m like, Okay, I could take this in now, yeah, take it in. Take it how much of this do I want to actually take it in and, like, operationalize inside my own gut? Like, if I am, do I want to change things right? Right? Or how many things I just need to throw away? Because really, do they even know what right? And so I had to start to evaluate what it was that was being said, and then take those truths, there were some truths there, and then act upon those truths, right? And so feedback has has been, and will continue to be, I think, the greatest thing that leaders can give. And then, of course, you know, to receive and then give to others, yes. And in a way, that’s not over coddling, you know, feedback
Maria Ross 34:02
and isn’t vague, you know, like this is the thing. One of my pillars is clarity, because it’s not just kind it’s empathetic. When you help people understand where they stand. So you know, you’re doing a great job. Is great to hear, but what exactly are they doing, or you’re missing the mark? Okay, where exactly am I missing the mark? How can I improve upon that? So we’ve got to bring that clarity into the feedback. But I love what you’re saying, because I’ve often talked about one of the markers of being able to strengthen your empathy as a leader, as a human, is to be able to accept feedback as a gift, and when you look at it not as a threat to you, but as a perspective that someone’s bringing when you can show empathy and grace to that of of more like curiosity, like wow, Heather, I didn’t know you saw that in me. Tell me more about that. Why do you think that I didn’t care about the project? Why did you think that if I can be in a place where I can stand strong enough to take. That feedback on, then I can improve, then I can then I can act on it right? And I it’s free market research, like just accepted, whether it’s from, you know, and I’ve come from a brand strategy background, not everybody that this is your brand or your company is a hater or a troll. They might actually have something valuable to say. And so again, it’s putting ego aside and saying, What can I learn from this? What is this person trying to tell me, especially if you see a trend, right, especially if there’s not just one person saying that, but yeah, multiple people, it’s like, okay, not everybody can be wrong.
Heather Younger 35:36
So trending and take a look. Say this to me recently, because I tend to take in feedback. And I because listening is the foundation of, like, pretty much all of my work, listening to me, listening to others, it’s the foundation. It really is the crux, like it is extremely valuable understand how to be curious and listen and present and all those things, right? And so as I’m thinking about listening, then that means I’m listening to other people, and I’m a little bit of a OCD about receiving feedback. So I asked for feedback a lot. I get feedback. I just think it’s extremely, extremely important, right? But one person, a couple people, lately have been saying, Well, you know, I get you, but be careful. Like, be careful who it is you’re receiving the feedback from, and how much you are internalizing it, right? And so that one’s helped me yet again, like, at a different layer, yeah, understand. So from a self leadership perspective, yes, feedback is critical. Contemplating a rec, you know, just thinking about who it is that you’re receiving it from, and how much should some be weighted versus the others, right? This is all work that we have to do. We have to do this work as leaders, whether we are leaders in our family, our community at work, it’s not about title in this regard. No, yes, those who have title have authority. And so oftentimes I’m speaking audiences of people who have authority, but I’m also speaking people who don’t have that formal authority, but they should still be learning to lead themselves better. Yeah, yeah. Somebody’s looking to you for guidance. Somebody is somebody’s looking at you. You have, yeah,
Maria Ross 36:59
you have a sphere of influence, whether it’s peer to peer, whether it’s you know, it again, it’s not about that title, and that is such a short term perspective on getting compliance right. Getting compliance from your team is not necessarily getting the best from them. You might be able to do that because of your title. You might be able to make them follow you because they report to you, but the goal is to get them to want to follow you. That’s where you get you crack open the best work from people when they actually want to be there. They’re actually motivated, whether they’re motivated because they don’t want to let you down, whether they’re motivated because you give them opportunity, whether they’re motivated simply because you see here and value them, that’s where you’re going to get the best results. And you know, you and I both talk about the ROI of all of this, and sometimes you have to be a little crass and say, hey, you know, leader, do you want to make your bonus? Do you want to get your bonus this quarter? Here’s one way to do it, empower and care about your team that will actually help you get your bonus, and then when you do it and you achieve the results, you’ll realize that that’s actually a much better way to operate, because that carrot that you know the stick isn’t always it’s very short term. You can get people to comply with command and control, but even military leaders I’ve spoken to on this show will say the military actually thrives on empathetic leadership, because you’re asking people to lay down their life for you. Totally. So yes, command and control works in a crisis, but if you are leading 24/7 with command and control, you are grinding people down.
Heather Younger 38:36
So true. I’ve done the same thing. I’ve been speaking to a couple of military folks, and I one of the things that’s really hit me is, is how much they rely on the caring leadership principles I teach. It’s actually tough. And I was like, wait to say, wait what? Because, you know, you’re not expecting it. No, I did it. I was like, and what now, because everybody always uses it as this, like command and control, and it’s not the way to lead. And I’m like, Well, what I’m hearing from these people who are in it for 20 years, for 20 years is, yeah, that’s not exactly all
Maria Ross 39:04
true, right, right? And they’re used, you know, a lot of leaders in business are using these military leaders or figures or quotes, and it’s like, you’re taking that out of context.
Heather Younger 39:15
Yes, that’s so true. Yeah.
Maria Ross 39:19
It’s like, well, or like even, you know, I talk about elite coaches, sports coaches in my book, and I tell the story of Steve Kerr who’s created a championship NBA dynasty with the Golden State Warriors, my favorite team, but he didn’t do it through command and control. He actually says one of his core values is empathy, and I’ve got to get to know everyone on my team and what makes what motivates them, what makes them tick, and I have to adapt my coaching style to what those players need to be, the best versions of themselves. It’s not about do it my way or the highway. It’s about I’m here to serve you and enable you to be the best team you can be. And. Right? He’s winning championships with that philosophy, right? So it’s like, I think someone you know who runs an accounting firm or who’s a consultant or who works for a software company can probably apply those lessons too well. This has been delightful. I want to spend way more time with you, but unfortunately, we’re out of time, so we will have all the links in the show notes for you and your work and your book, again, the art of self leadership, discover the power within you and learn to lead yourself. But for anyone who’s listening to us on the go, where’s kind of the one best place they can find out more about you and your work,
Heather Younger 40:34
I’d say LinkedIn, yeah, you just go to Heather younger you’ll find me there, and that’s probably the better place just you’ll because I’m just always there. So, yeah,
Maria Ross 40:41
yeah, absolutely. And I will give my PSA I do for all my guests that mentioned LinkedIn is, if you’re going to connect, send a note. So Heather knows you heard her on the podcast and you’re not trying to sell her something, please. Yes, thank you, or just follow you right. There you go. Yes. Well, Heather, this has been wonderful. I wish you the best, and I hope we can stay connected Absolutely.
Heather Younger 41:05
Thank you, Maria for having me. It’s been amazing. And thank you everyone
Maria Ross 41:09
for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do, rate, review and share with a friend or colleague. And until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive, stay well and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place. You.
