Let me be clear: Humans ARE animals. Empathy for animals is not about thinking they’re cute. It’s about creating a strong connection where we understand their unique needs and habitats so we can be part of the solution to increase biodiversity, avoid extinction, and promote a healthy planet for ALL of us.
Today, I am delighted to speak to Jim Wharton. We talk about how and why to create stronger connections between humans, animals, and nature at large, why empathy is required to make change, how to make conservation personal, and when and how we can use strategic anthropomorphism (that’s when we attribute human traits to animals!) without actually causing harm to them. And Jim shares the amazing 2024 expansion at the Seattle Aquarium featuring animals and habitats from the Coral Triangle which allows them to tell a more globally connected story of ocean conservation. It sounds amazing!
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- The disconnection to nature is artificial and allows people to externalize conservation and not embrace it as something that affects them as fellow animals.
- The disconnect between humans and nature is an illusion that falsely elevates humans above everything else.
- Anthropomorphism is not necessarily the problem. The real problems come with anthropocentrism – thinking the human experience is the central defining experience leading to humans harming the animals they are trying to care for.
“Developmentally we all start out being deeply, deeply connected to everything around us. We begin our lives looking at animals as anthropomorphic peers, the same as your brother or sister, there’s no difference to you. And then gradually, over time, we have “difference” educated into us and “connection” educated out of us.”
— Jim Wharton
Episode References:
- Empathy Initiatives at the Seattle Aquarium: seattleaquarium.org/about-us/in-our-community/fostering-empathy-for-wildlife
- Citizens: Why the Key to Fixing Everything is All of Us by Jon Alexander
- Internet of Elephants
About Jim Wharton, VP, Conservation Engagement & Learning, Seattle Aquarium
Dr. Jim Wharton is the Vice President of Conservation Engagement and Learning at the Seattle Aquarium. Jim joined the Aquarium in 2012 from Mote Marine Laboratory where he served as Vice President of Education. He holds a B.S. from the University of Michigan, an M.S. in marine resource management from Oregon State University, and a Ph.D. in educational measurement and evaluation from the University of South Florida. Jim and the team at the Seattle Aquarium have been working with partners to explore how fostering empathy in our audiences can contribute to conservation outcomes. The Aquarium has shared effective practices and strategies for fostering empathy through publications and workshops with over 70 zoos and aquariums with a combined attendance of more than 75 million annually. The Aquarium partnered on a children’s book (and puppet show), Catastrophe by the Sea, that encourages readers to empathize with less traditionally charismatic animals. Jim is also an advocate for diversifying the way we talk about and portray sharks, shark scientists, and shark conservation in popular media.
Connect with Jim Wharton
Seattle Aquarium: seattleaquarium.org
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jimmwharton
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Let me be clear, humans are animals to empathy for animals is not about thinking they’re cute. It’s about creating a strong connection where we understand their unique needs and habitats. So we can be part of the solution to increase biodiversity, avoid extinction and promote a healthy planet for all of us. As a huge animal lover myself, I was delighted to speak to Jim Wharton, Vice President of conservation, engagement and learning at the Seattle Aquarium. From his childhood fascination with sharks to the work he does now. Jim and the team at the Seattle Aquarium have been working with partners to explore how fostering empathy in our audiences can contribute to conservation outcomes. The aquarium has shared effective practices and strategies for fostering empathy through publications and workshops with over 70 zoos and aquariums, with a combined attendance of more than 75 million annually. The aquarium partnered on a children’s book and puppet show catastrophe by the sea that encourages readers to empathize with less traditionally charismatic animals. Jim is also an advocate for diversifying the way we talk about and portray sharks, Shark scientists and shark conservation in popular media. We talked about how and why to create stronger connections between animals, humans and nature at large, why empathy is required to make change as it’s pointless to create change in an apathetic environment. Thank you, Jim, for that, quote, how to make conservation personal, and when and how we can use strategic anthropomorphism. That’s when we attribute human traits to animals without actually causing harm to them, you’ll be surprised, and Jim shares the amazing 2024 expansion at the Seattle Aquarium featuring animals and habitats from the coral triangle, which allows them to tell a more globally conducted story of ocean conservation. It sounds amazing. PS, you can connect with the Aquarians work from wherever you live through their website, social channels, or by attending virtual events like lightning talks and empathy cafes. It was a great conversation on how the lessons of empathy building for animals apply to our own human to human relationships as well. You’re in for a treat. Welcome Jim Morton, to the empathy edge to talk about empathy with animals and our relationships and connections with animals and what that can teach us about developing empathy for each other. So welcome to the show. Thank you. So before we dive into our conversation around this work, tell us a little bit about how you got to this work in conservation, engagement and learning and how you even got to the aquarium just briefly tell us about that journey. And and what are you most passionate about in that in the work that you do? Yeah,
Jim Wharton 03:36
sure. So I, you know, I grew up like a lot of kids fascinated by the ocean, particularly fascinated by sharks, read a book when I was, I don’t know, seven or eight that made me convinced I was going to be world famous shark researcher. And, you know, as you go on, you have new experiences. i By the time I found my way to grad school, I mean, sharks had become a conservation concern that when I was a kid, that was not a concern, like they were, we were redistributing fisheries effort to sharks, instead of instead of thinking about their conservation, so So I shifted that focus started thinking about things like fisheries management. Once I started to get into sort of internships and experiences, I realized quickly that that was not a path for me, not one, I felt like I could bribe them. And so I actually went to the Oregon Coast Aquarium and volunteered just because I wanted to feel connected to the ocean. Again, I wanted to remind myself why I wanted to do the work and, and sort of stumbled into education as a conservation strategy. I don’t think it occurred to me that, you know, you can create all these regulations that you like, you can create broad systemic changes, but you it’s kind of pointless to create systemic change and an ignorant or apathetic system. Like those things just don’t happen. And so, you know, education is a bit of a long game, but, you know, education grew into thinking about, you know, environmental behavior and social science and of course, empathy folds. into all of that. And so that’s thinking about how we get people more connected to not just nature, but for us, in particular, the ocean, because the ocean is a little out of sight out of mind. For most people, it is not, you know, in their, their closest circle of concern. And so, you know, aquariums are an important window into those habitats a way to connect with those animals. And, you know, I think without that strong connection, it’s much more difficult for people to think about how they might like to change their lives.
Maria Ross 05:30
Yeah, I love this, because what you said was so powerful about, it’s pointless to create change in an apathetic setting, I’m paraphrasing there. But it’s true, because if there’s not a desire to care, or desire to change, or quite frankly, a connection to the group that you’re trying to impact, it’s a lot harder, and it’s forced, it’s optics, it’s all these other things. And so it’s really not just about sort of collecting money for conservation, but getting people really invested in caring about wildlife and caring about the oceans Exactly. Like you said, I live right on the cliffs of the Pacific Ocean. So every time I leave my house, the ocean is ever present for me. But I didn’t always live in an environment like that. So I get that the oceans can seem like this big, vast thing over there. And when we hear about, for example, pollution in the oceans, or different biodiversity, different ecosystems going extinct, it doesn’t really impact our daily lives. And so I’m sure like, you agree, having aquariums as a way to get up close and personal is so important. But it’s, it’s only a first step. And so talk to us a little bit about before actually, before we go into what the aquarium specifically is doing. Can you talk about or give us your take on how you create or leverage empathy for animals? Because I just want to share something very personal. Many years ago, I kind of had this existential crisis that I was actually more empathetic with animals than I was with human beings. Because it was, it was yeah, it was like the stories of abuse to animals or animals dying out that actually brought me to tears. And I thought, oh, what’s, what’s wrong with me, but then other people, I’m a dog lover, I’m a dog owner. And other people are like, I just don’t get having a pet. Like, they just can’t even fathom why that’s a thing. So what’s your particular take on the connection that humans have with animals? And is it always about as strong as empathy? Or, you know, where do you where do you see that?
Jim Wharton 07:35
Yeah, it’s an interesting question. Because developmentally, you know, we all start out, being deeply, deeply connected to everything around us, like everything around us. And so animals begin, we begin our lives, looking at animals as anthropomorphic peers, you know, the same as your brother or your sister, no difference to you. And then gradually, over time, we have difference educated into us, and connection educated out of us. And so we’re increasingly taught that humans are different from animals. Whereas, you know, that’s nothing could be further from the truth. Humans are animals. So not only are we separated from animals, but often we’re placed above and to the point where making a comparison to an animal can be an insult, right? You’re blind as a bat, or you’re, you know, breeding as a pig, or however you want to use those those kinds of comparisons. But we’re taught that we are different than and better than, and, you know, as we become as a society, more, more sort of digital and more metropolitan, we’ve become increasingly disconnected, not just from animals, but from nature. You can answer a question you can reach anyone in the world with a couple of clicks. But most of us don’t work food comes from, we don’t know where our waste goes. And we create this incredibly artificial disconnection from nature. And that allows us to externalize what’s happening to nature and to externalize conservation as a responsibility, right? So it’s like, I’m going to send my money to Conservation International, I’m going to send my money to the aquarium, they’re going to take care of conservation, as opposed to making it part of my personal identity, my personal, you know, mission as a as a person. So the way we think empathy plays into that is that empathy is a really strong skill set for developing and reinforcing connections. So the more you utilize your empathy skill set, and that’s one of my favorite things about empathy is it’s not a characteristic, right? It’s a thing that we do, we become better at. And so if you practice empathy, you become more empathetic. If you practice empathy, specifically with animals, you become more empathetic from animals. And then the sneaky thing about empathy is that the neural pathways for having empathy for animals and for people are the exact same pathways. So as you become more empathetic for animals, you kind of sneakily become more empathetic for people as well. But really, it’s about practice, right? If you’re if you’re not exposed Who’s to you didn’t grow up with Pat, you didn’t grow up with four h you didn’t grow up in a setting with animals, then you just haven’t practice that skill set. Right.
Maria Ross 10:08
And I’m frantically looking up as you’re talking because you’ve sparked some things I want to mention while we’re talking about this, but I loved what you said about we, we get sort of D educated about versus we get educated about difference, and we get d educated about connection. That’s not exactly the way that you said it. But I just thought that was super powerful, because that is true. That’s true across anything, in terms of difference across racism, across sexism across LGBTQ or homophobia, those things are not innate. Those things are are educated into us. And so is sort of the apathy for wildlife and nature and just animals in general, that can be educated into us. And I think that’s a really important point, just like empathy is innate to us as human beings. Science has shown us that. But as I always talk about the muscle can atrophy if it’s not modeled if it’s not celebrated, if it’s not rewarded, and I would imagine the same is true about our connection or our view of animals and nature.
Jim Wharton 11:20
The more you know, and you know, in in the olden days, you know, zoos and aquariums in science in general, my only contributed to that because we treated animals as objects, objects have fascination, but still objects, right. And so, zoos and aquariums used to be really uptight about naming animals. Because you didn’t want people to think of the animals that are in our care as pets, or you’d want them to think of them. You wanted to think of the sort of example of species because we were institutions of learning. But you don’t need to be an institution of learning anymore, because we’ve got, you know, you can answer just about any question you need on your phone, whether you get good information or not another question, but But yes, you still learn at zoos and aquariums, but that can’t be our purpose anymore. Purpose has to be about meaning making a connection, and helping people feel and see those connections. Because this idea that there is huge, there are humans and there is nature is is not it’s not accurate in the slightest, like humans did become unnatural. When we started breeding technology and building things. It’s just just this illusion we’ve created for ourselves, and in many ways, sort of selfishly elevating ourselves in that process.
Maria Ross 12:32
So as I mentioned, as you were talking earlier, two things came to mind. One, this idea of believing that conservation is done by other people or other organizations, that’s sort of a good first step. But there’s a fantastic book that I’m still working my way through called citizens. And I highly recommend it, I’ll put a link to it in the show notes. It’s called why the key to fixing everything is all of us. And it’s written by an author who has a consultancy called the new citizenship project. And they help both nonprofits and for profit companies engage their stakeholders in a way where they’re not solving the problems for them, but they’re making them part of the solution. And they have great case studies in the book about things they’ve done for the British trust. And for the BBC, where they’ve made people feel a sense of ownership. Rather than just give us your money and don’t worry, we’ll you don’t need to know any more, we’ll take care of it, getting people involved, getting them educated, getting them to feel bought in to being part of the solution. And so that’s exactly the the the sentiment you’re talking about. So highly recommend that book. And then there’s another organization that was started by someone, I went to college with a friend of mine from college, it’s called the Internet of elephants. And his work is applying technology to help people have more of a personal connection to endangered wildlife. And everything from super unique projects, like creating apps where people can exercise alongside, you know, a an endangered animal in Africa, or something like that. Just very unique ways to pull people back into nature and being back a part of it, so that they want to do more. And what I love about what you’re saying is I you know, we could probably have a whole nother conversation. There’s very mixed emotions about zoos and aquariums these days, right. And some of them have abused animals and some have not. But what I love is this is what I’m seeing is the organizations like the Seattle Aquarium, who are focused on education and and conservation. And obviously, treating animals with respect and treating animals with dignity. And as a way to, again, engage people into the process. And your your observation you made earlier about zoos in the past being more about looking at animals as objects of fascination. I mean, they are very awesome in the actual meaning of awesome but not just looking at them as an other, but sort of like how do we live together in this ecosystem? You is really powerful? Yeah, I
Jim Wharton 15:02
think we keep thinking like, how do we like what’s the highest and best use of the time that we have with people when they’re with us? Right? It’s not to help them understand that some whales have to blowholes some whales at one level, like the the facts of the matter if they interest you, and they get you excited, and that what brings you to the aquarium then great, but let’s talk about let’s talk about whale society, let’s talk about the the ways that these animals enrich the systems enrich our lives, because in the end, you know, conservation is not really an animal or a habitat problem. It’s a people problem. So I mean, people are both the problem, the solution, and consequently, the beneficiaries. So healthy ecosystems are in our best interests. Unquestionably,
Maria Ross 15:45
yeah. And it’s just, it’s similar to helping people strengthen their empathy for, for other people, in that, if you just think of this vast amorphous group, it seems very removed from you, right? But when you actually go to the aquarium and meet the whale, and meet the, you know, the other, the other organism, the other animal, you’re learning their story, right? And that actually engenders empathy and us we start to feel more connected when we learn about an individual, versus like, oh, 1000s of fish in this particular ecosystem are dying, right, for better or worse, that just sort of glances off us. But if we have an experience at the aquarium, or at the zoo, where we’re meeting that animal, and we’re learning that animal story as a representation, we are way more connected. So I’m assuming that’s part of the goal as well. Yeah,
Jim Wharton 16:35
no question. I mean, what’s that old expression, like a single death as a strategy and a million hours this, right, so that’s sort of that same idea that by showing an animal as a subjective other, you create a different kinds of respect for and connection to that animal, it’s easy to bring animals into your circle of concern, and think of them in a less utilitarian way.
Maria Ross 16:57
I’m gonna throw you a curveball here, because this question just occurred to me, you know, it’s so interesting, the way movies and documentaries humanize animals to the point that sometimes I can’t watch the nature documentaries, because I’m too invested in the baby seal, and I don’t want to see them getting attacked. What’s your take on that? Like, can that can that humanization of the animal go too far?
Jim Wharton 17:19
So that’s a great question, and zoos and aquariums, this is something that that we constantly struggle with this idea of anthropomorphism right can’t are we, I can’t
Maria Ross 17:26
say that word. That’s why I didn’t say it. So
Jim Wharton 17:30
we’re making animals too much like humans. And I think that I think that we sometimes misunderstand what anthropomorphism is. And what it is, it’s a metaphor, right? It’s a way that a person tries to understand something that is different than their own experience. And so, I mean, this is just education at its basic. So you see something that’s different than than what you’ve experienced the past that you’re trying to hang it on a hook somewhere in your brain that’s similar to something that you’re doing. So in some cases, that’s super helpful, like you can see behaviors that animals, you know, undergo, and they’re very similar to ours, and it helps us understand them better. And then there are other cases where we assume that something that’s happening with an animal is exactly the same thing that would happen with us. And that becomes problematic. And so we talk a lot about strategic or enlightened anthropomorphism. If you understand an animal’s natural history, then you are less likely to project yourself into that animals experience because the real problems that anthropomorphism is anthropocentrism. It’s, it’s thinking that the human experience is the central defining experience of life. And that leads to things like, like feeding grizzly bears, because you think that they’re hungry, saving seals off the beach that don’t need saving, it would lead to us doing things that are not helpful to animals and making assumptions about what’s happening, that similarly not helpful to animals. So I think the other thing we often talk about is that there are some animals that benefit from that kind of humanization. And there are some that it’s just not necessary. Like we have sea otters in our care. You know, they’re, they look wonderful and cuddly adorable. Yeah, they are. But the, you don’t need to anthropomorphize a car, right, people already feel deeply connected to them, because they have a lot of the characteristics that just naturally engender empathy thing, you know, they have really strong agents. See, they show a lot of activity, they look like an animal, so it’s easy to recognize them, like people just this they instantly drawn to a sea otter, but something like a barnacle or a CNM. And you see him and he doesn’t even look like an animal, it looks like a flower. And so anthropomorphism for these animals can be incredibly helpful because it allows you to start to understand that this is an animal like me, it has some of the same needs, it has some of the same challenges. And so it creates a connection. And it’s in you’re not in you’re not in any danger of, you know, over anthropomorphizing the CNMV
Maria Ross 19:52
oh my gosh, I love that so much because that’s, that’s I’ve often wondered that of if that’s actually a good thing or a Sometimes it goes too far, and you’ve just given us some great examples of when it can go too far to the point where someone, this is true of humans too. You think you’re being empathetic, because you’re making assumptions, when actually, you’re thinking of it like how I would want to be treated. And I wrote in the empathy edge, that it’s not about the empathy is not about the golden rule. It’s about the platinum rule, which is Do unto others as they would have done unto them. And so this, this calls to mind, that concept of, we want it we want to be curious, we want to get to know someone else’s, or an animal’s context and story, and then be able to be empathetic by giving them the things that they need, not the things that we think they need.
Jim Wharton 20:43
Right? And we talk about that a lot. We talk about the difference between what’s it like to you know, walk in another person’s shoes or swimming in another animal spins, it’s not about what it’s like, you it’s like, what what is it like for them? Right? Right. And that’s an that can be that’s an incredibly powerful nuance that a lot of people haven’t processed.
Maria Ross 21:03
No, and it’s and it’s good. And I feel like it’s good intentions. But it goes as it goes, right. Like don’t feed the grizzly. Don’t feed the pigeons like they’re fine. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about the what the aquarium is doing. And the big expansion that’s happening this summer.
Jim Wharton 21:27
Yeah, so we’re opening a new building here at the Aquarium of the buildings, called the ocean pavilion focuses on the coral triangle, which is a incredibly marine bio diverse habitat on the other side of the world. So around Indonesia, Philippines, those that sort of area. And the reason we chose to focus on that space is that we really, you know, we’ve been a regional aquarium for our entire existence representing the Salish Sea in the Puget Sound, we will always be a regional aquarium. But simple fact of the matter is what happens in Puget Sound doesn’t say in Puget Sound. And so, you know, in order to understand the global context of ocean issues, we wanted to be able to provide another sense of place to allow people to make comparisons and to understand that the challenges facing the coral triangle are suspiciously similar to the challenges that are facing the Salish Sea. And so working together is the best way to face those challenges. And in that process, you know, in building the new exhibit, we don’t we didn’t want to just build them in their brain. So like there’s there’s empathy as part of the of what’s interwoven in the way that we understand our approach. So some exhibits, it’s we’re really hoping to encourage people to think about what is what does that animals experience like in the ocean, as opposed to what’s in this tank? What’s in that one? And, you know, so even to the point where the, the exhibit titles aren’t titled their questions, we want to really encourage people to, to think about their place in these systems, how they improve the systems, how systems influence them. It’s really about meaning making. It’s not about information sharing. But it’s exciting, and we can’t wait to see it happening. It’s gonna open this summer, this summer, summer 24. Great.
Maria Ross 23:05
Well, I am definitely going to check that out next time. I’m in Seattle. But I’m so excited for that. And I’m so excited with, with what I’m seeing from organizations like the Seattle Aquarium, from other you know, I live in near San Francisco, the San Francisco Zoo, the efforts that are being done to not just work on conservation and education, but to involve everyone. And again, it goes back to that book citizens, which I highly recommend, which is about, it’s not the consumer story where things are being done. For us. It’s the citizen story where we’re part of the solution. So love the work you’re doing. I have great memories of the Seattle Aquarium when I lived in Seattle before I had kids, so we have to take our son up there at some point. But so I’m gonna have all your links in the show notes, where people can also find out more about the aquarium. But real quickly for anyone who’s on a peloton right now or something? Where can they connect with you? Where can they find out more information about the exhibit? Sure,
Jim Wharton 24:02
yeah, please do connect with me on LinkedIn, easy to find there. You could follow me on Twitter at at Jim Morton, please do come to the Seattle Aquarium website, which is simple Seattle aquarium.org. You could search for empathy or or take a browse around and see some of the other programs that were invested in. We’re doing work all over the world now and super proud of, of not just the work we’re doing, but the community we’re building around conservation.
Maria Ross 24:24
I love it. Thank you, Jim, for your time and your insights today. Thank you, it was a pleasure. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard you know what to do. Please rate review and share it with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. booked me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
