A military historian walks into a company and transforms their customer engagement strategy to increase revenue and retention. While this might sound like the start of a very strange joke, it’s a true story. When searching for frameworks on how to better engage your customers with empathy, look no further than my guest today, John Southard.
Backed by more than 10 years of research built into his book, Defend and Befriend: The US Marine Corps and Combined Action Platoons in Vietnam, John has transformed the lessons from his historical research into a simple and proven empathy framework that companies can leverage to better understand customer needs – and we discuss that framework today, as well as examples each stage in action. We discuss why some leaders view the customer as the enemy and how that’s hurting their growth, why simply responding to customer surveys is not the way to build engagement, and how your hiring decisions impact customer retention and engagement in ways you may not realize.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Exposure to groups other than yourself is the gateway to empathy. Getting into conversation is the first step to breaking false assumptions and realizing that both sides are human.
- A recent study shows that a lack of empathy from brands to consumers loses companies money, to the tune of $300M, every year.
- Cultivating communities and relationships with customers allows you to get feedback from them directly and build trust with those customers.
- When trying to find your differentiator – start with what your customers need, both overtly and covertly. It takes time, but the ROI is worth it and sustainable in the long term.
“What unfolded is…the greatest unknown story of empathy, because these Marines show up and realize quickly, we have to live here, we have to abide by their rules, we have to understand their culture…because our personal survival literally depends on it. They lived a day in the life of these villagers to gain their respect.” — John Southard
Episode References:
- The Empathy Edge podcast, Kara Goldin, On Undaunted Leadership
- The Empathy Edge podcast, Sandy Thompson, How to Make People Fall in Love with Your Brand
Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!
About John Southard, Customer Engagement Expert, Speaker, Author
John has a Ph.D. in U.S. Military History and is an author, speaker, and expert in customer engagement and empathetic leadership. He has applied his historical research on empathy to corporate America to build empathetic leaders and cultures and optimize customer and employee experiences. Backed by more than 10 years of research, John has transformed the lessons from his historical research into a simple and proven empathy framework that companies can leverage to better understand customer needs.
Connect with John Southard
Website: Southard Speaks: https://www.johnsouthardspeaks.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsouthardhistoryphd/
Instagram: https://instagram.com/southardspeaks
Book: Defend and Befriend: The US Marine Corp and Combined Action Platoons in Vietnam
Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy
Connect with Maria:
Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com
Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
X: @redslice
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. A military historian walks into a company and transforms their customer engagement strategy to increase revenue and retention. While this might sound like the start of a very strange joke, it’s a true story. When searching for examples and frameworks on how to better engage your customers with empathy, look no further than my guest today, John southern. John has a PhD in US military history, and is an author, speaker and expert in customer engagement and empathetic leadership. He has applied his historical research on empathy to corporate America to build empathetic leaders and cultures and optimize customer and employee experiences. Backed by more than 10 years of research built into his book, defend and befriend the US Marine Corps and combined action platoons in Vietnam. John has transformed the lessons from his historical research into a simple and proven empathy framework that companies can leverage to better understand customer needs. And we discuss that framework today, as well as examples of each stage in action. We discuss why some leaders view the customer as the enemy and how that’s hurting their growth. Why simply responding to customer surveys is not the way to build engagement, and how your hiring decisions impact customer retention and engagement. In ways you may not realize this was such an interesting and enlightening episode. Please enjoy. Quick offer for you. Listen up all you marketers, business owners, entrepreneurs, all of you trying to connect and engage with an audience to grow your impact and revenue. I’m all about strengthening empathy to achieve radical success. And this all started for me in my wheelhouse of marketing. See, I realized the key to attracting and engaging the right customers is all about understanding them seeing things from their point of view. Empathy is a marketers superpower if it’s wielded responsibly. So after running two successful real time cohorts, I now opening up my brand story breakthrough course as an on demand offering. Take it when you want how you want for as long as you want five modules of videos and playbooks designed to help you articulate your goals. Understand your customers, define your different and land on your perfect brand story and marketing message. So you stand out and attract that perfect fit audience. Marketing is not about lying to people. It’s about empathy, elevating the truth of your story. And in this on demand course, you’ll learn the exact steps that my past brand clients have gone through to craft a clear and compelling and consistent brand message that guides everything you do. You’ll walk away with a brand story strategy, ideal customer profiles, and even website and social media profile copy. Plus, with this on demand course you get access to weekly Friday office hours with me. Yep, ask questions, get feedback, share new memes discover new insights to help your business shine. It’s insanely cost effective and extremely valuable to your business and goals. So check out the details@bit.ly slash BSB course that’s bi T dot L y slash V sb course or click the link in the show notes. See you on the other side. Welcome John southern to the empathy edge Podcast. I’m So excited to have you here to talk about customer engagement, and especially your fascinating background, as a military historian, and what lessons we can learn about leadership from that work. So an end customer engagement from that work. So welcome to the show.
John Southard 05:17
I’m excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Okay, so
Maria Ross 05:20
you have to tell us how you got from academic historian to customer engagement expert in corporate America, because that is not a linear leap, let’s talk about that. It
John Southard 05:31
really is like the most random abrupt career change. I obviously used to be a history professor in academia. And my last job in academia was kind of a visiting professor job. So it was only three years. And it was right after I got my PhD. And so the gold standard, of course, in academia is to find that tenure track job. And over the course of those three years that I had that temporary job, I just for the life of me could not find a tenure track job, which is a whole nother TED Talk. But I just decided, instead of moving my family halfway across the nation every one to three years looking for new jobs in academia, I said, I’m just going to quit academia. And as random as it is, jump into business, my undergrad degrees actually in business. But at that point, who cares, because it had been like, 15 years since I’d done anything. So when I moved, we were in Atlanta, moved from Atlanta back home, which is Texas. And that’s where my network was, and is. And so I made it my full time job to network and figure out, how do I explain how a professional historian generates revenue for a company. And that was really, really difficult to try to figure out, or people asked you the question, when you’re networking, what do you want to do? And I was like, I don’t know how I’d write that, actually. But I had a meeting with the CEO of this real estate investment company. And he happened to really enjoy military history. And so he was asking me about my dissertation and my book. And I explained to him, what this small group of Marines in Vietnam did, to become essentially best friends with these Vietnamese villagers, even though they absolutely hated these people before they met him. And he said, Wow, you just explained to me our new customer engagement strategy. I said, I did. And he said, Yes. And so long story short, I put together a plan, distilled everything we can talk about, of course, in a minute, everything that these Marines did, I distilled it down into a four part empathy framework, and pitched that as, here’s how you get to know the tenants of these buildings that you own, and get your occupancy occupancy up from like 60, or 70%, to 100%. And then that work six days, it was crazy how that worked. And so it was just that light bulb moment where I said, this is what I’m going to do is I say it’s the power of empathy learns through history. And so now, I’ve been in operations and strategy and change management, and innovation and doing human centered design and design thinking work. And it’s all based on what this group of Marines in Vietnam did, which I call one of the greatest yet unknown stories of empathy and world history. Well,
Maria Ross 08:42
and that’s, that’s amazing. And we should mention the name of the book is defend and befriend the US Marine Corps and combined action platoons in Vietnam. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about that story? I mean, obviously, folks can pick up the book and get all the juicy details, but give us the highlights and how it applies how that practice of empathy, first of all pointed out for us, because I think it’s hard for some people to see that in other realms, like business like the military, like all these places. And then let’s talk let’s, let’s parse that out into how that impacts a customer engagement strategy.
John Southard 09:17
Sure. First, I know that not everyone listening is an expert, or reads about American involvement Vietnam every day. So I’ll give a little bit of historical context here. And that first Vietnam War, we’re looking at the 1960s and early 70s. And for me, when I was getting my PhD and learning about American involvement in Vietnam, you know, you learn that the American GI interaction with the Vietnamese and especially the villagers was awful. And that’s putting it lightly. They hated these people. They saw them as subhuman. And if you can imagine a group of 19 year old Marines on patrol in Triple Canopy jungle, it’s 100 degrees and 1,000,000% humidity. And there’s bugs you’ve never seen before. And all these things and you’re walking through rivers, and now your feet are wet. And the America’s enemy in Vietnam was intentionally elusive and operated in these really small unit. So unlike World War Two, they operate in the small units, it wasn’t these two gigantic armies going at it. And so what happened is the Marines would be on patrol for days and sometimes weeks and not see one enemy. And then every once a while, they would engage in combat for like five minutes, and then the enemy would disappear into the jungle. But as you’re patrolling for days, you’re going to come across these Vietnamese villages. And these Marines assumed that the enemy were in the villages because they couldn’t find them anywhere else. But the problem in Vietnam was that America’s enemy dressed like civilians, they looked like civilians, they talked like civilians. So it was nearly impossible to differentiate friend from foe. And a lot of really unfortunate incidents happened as a result of that, because the frustration of not finding the enemy and then having your buddy killed and still not finding the enemy. That frustration, turned into hatred and turned into thoughts of these people as subhuman. And the crazy thing is that the Marine Corps early in the war in 1965, came in and said, the way that this war is being fought is not working. And instead of just patrolling the unpopulated jungles, and just trying to rack up enemy body count, we should measure success by the number of Vietnamese civilians that we can protect. And so the Marine Corps devised this program called the combined action program where they would send gas 19 year old Marines to live in Vietnamese villages. But of course, the problem is everything we just talked about, they hated these people, they saw them as subhuman. And what unfolded is, again, when I call the greatest unknown story of empathy, because these Marines show up and realize quickly, we have to live here, we have to abide by their rules, we have to understand their cultural do’s and don’ts because our personal survival literally depends on it. And the Marines started to my message, like my overarching messages experience, what they experienced, like that’s my definition of empathy within the context of these Marines. And that’s what they did, they lived a day in the life of these villagers to gain their respect, in hopes that they could gather intelligence about food the enemy really was and where they were going. So over the course of weeks, and months of living with these villagers, every day, they start to learn about their culture, and they started to respect their culture. And you start to see Marines helping the villagers celebrate the Tet holiday. And he saw the villagers helping the Marines celebrate their holidays, and the Marines start playing Vietnamese board games, and you start to see this interaction. And then you get to the point where the Marines start to understand what are like the big physical needs in the village. And so through interaction, they’re starting to build school houses, and they’re starting to build water wells. And it’s just this, you keep going. And by the end of those 12 months, they served, you have Marines that had gone from seeing people as subhuman, to literally dying for them. Like, because they love these people so much. And it was just this process of empathizing with these people to understand what their day was, like, gaining respect for them, and completely transforming their perception of not just 200 villagers in the village, but a higher culture.
14:03
So there’s so much to be out there. Because there’s, you know, there’s,
Maria Ross 14:08
it’s always been this idea of exposure to different groups or groups different from yourself, that is the gateway to empathy. And sometimes you do have to force people to get to know other people. And I’m, I’m sort of like, whatever leads people to empathy is a good thing. And that’s why, you know, I talk about the ROI of empathy of trying to get skeptics on board to say, well, empathy is good for our business, if that’s what gets you there to ultimately be in the room with other people and see their lives and listen to their perspectives and find a new way to think about something if that’s what it takes. Then ultimately, they’re going to transform from the outside in which it sounds like happened in this situation on a very large and you know, important scale, you know, a life or death scale. And so that is in and of itself amazing. And so when we talk about, even when we talk about dei in the workplace, this is why like getting us all into the same room is the first step, getting us in conversation with each other is the first step to, you know, bust false assumptions to get to know someone is human to all all of the things you just talked about. So that really struck me. The other thing that struck me is how this CEO saw the link between Yeah, a group hating another group and applying that to their customer strategy, which I think is very telling of companies that continue to see the customer as the enemy, even though you have no company without a customer. So why do you think that thinking even begins in a lot of companies? What Why are they seeing the customer as the enemy when, again, no customers no company?
John Southard 16:04
I think, and I’ll use him as an example. And that company is example. But But I think it speaks to the larger issue. And that there is just whether it’s intentional or not, there is this disconnection between leadership of a company and customers, and the cause of that disconnection could be all sorts of things, it could be that they’re making assumptions, it could be that they’ve got 5 million other things to do. And so the concept of empathizing with a group of people they don’t know, is just so foreign to them. And in this particular case, and talking to the CEO of this investment company, these apartments that they needed help with were very distressed apartments in low income areas, and they had no idea how to deal with the tenants in those neighborhoods, no clue, because all they had grown accustomed to was you buy a property, you change the carpet, you paint the walls, and you put flowers at the front, and then you raise rents. And so getting them to understand that it’s going to improve the customer experience and the tenant experience, if you actually focus on how do we improve the lives of the people and not the buildings surrounding them. And for me, getting that light switch to turn on for them to understand we do need empathy, business reasons, is you have to understand what drives them from a revenue standpoint, what gets them going, like if I say, hey, if we don’t do X, Y, and Z to empathize with these customers, your company is going to lose $20 million every year. And we know like, there was a recent study several years ago, where it was this massive research 34,000 consumers across more than 200 brands. And they found that the lack of empathy from those brands to consumers cost those companies $300 million every year.
Maria Ross 18:05
This is the thing, they’re This is not a soft skill. This is like a bottom line imperative. It’s costing you money, like, again, people get on me about how can you talk about empathy that way, you know, we need to be talking about the moral imperative of it, and I get it, but that argument has not worked for a lot of people. So if we need to tell them, you know, companies are losing what was it 30,000,003 100,000,300 300 million? Because of a lack of empathy, you need to start paying attention CEO like, yeah,
John Southard 18:35
and then once you get their ear, it’s explaining bow.
Maria Ross 18:39
Right? What does empathy look like in the business model? In, in our communications, in our training, in, you know, the type of people we hire? Like, are we hiring people that? Are we? Are we distilling them down to, you know, can do they have emotional intelligence? Can they connect with people? And if they can’t, are we willing to invest to close that gap?
John Southard 19:06
For that, you know, what, the fourth part of the empathy framework I talked about is, I call it preserving the culture. And what these Marines did is once they, once they established this culture within the villages, they wouldn’t let any other Marines in from the outside because they were concerned that if they brought in a guy who sees that the villagers are subhuman, Everything’s ruined. And so that’s one of the things that I preach to companies is okay. Now you have to hire people that believe in this and keep them or else one person can completely ruin the whole. Let’s
Maria Ross 19:43
back up a second. Let’s talk about those different levels. Real quick. You mentioned level four, but take us through quickly the different levels you talk about. Yeah, so
John Southard 19:50
it’s four parts to the empathy framework. The first is cultivate mutual respect. The second is deliver what I call overt needs. The third is deliver holdover needs. And then the fourth is preserved the trust. And I can explain any of those in greater detail if you’d like. Yeah,
Maria Ross 20:10
just real quickly give us give us a summary. Because we, you know, we want people to interact with your work and read your book and hiring you to speak. So let’s, let’s give them a little taste. Sure.
John Southard 20:21
So cultivate mutual respect, they all sound pretty self explanatory for the most part. But, and I’ll place it within the context of what the Marines did is, they showed up and one of the first things I realize is we have to respect them in the hopes that they respect us. And then once we can do that, in retrospect, we’re building this foundation of trust, but we still have to build this whole house. So by living a day in the life of these Vietnamese overseas villagers, had never even thought of the fact of an American much less than US Marine. experiencing what they experience on a daily basis to try to show them respect. And then the villager started inviting them to dinners, and you have all these things that happen. So there’s this cultivation of mutual respect that has to happen first.
Maria Ross 21:09
Okay, so let’s talk about that in the business context, how do you apply that, that part of the framework to a business,
John Southard 21:15
so I can give you two examples. One is this real estate company, where the first thing we did is, I knew that we had to show up not in great numbers to overwhelm tenants who had never seen us before. But in small groups show up. And were what they were taught like, they talk as much as you can, and just try to form relationships with them. It may take days and may take weeks. But it has to be consistent, you have to show up not once a week, but as often as you can, we did it every day. But if you can’t do that, that’s fine, as long as you’re consistent with it. And once you build that foundation of trust, like with these tenants, it’s just showing up and going in the same place every day, sitting down, interacting with people, finding the social butterflies, and getting them to start chatting with more people, then more people start talking to you, and you can start talking to them about your vision. This is why
Maria Ross 22:15
communities of customers are so important, and not just oh, we have a Facebook group for our customers, right that you leave to just 10 fend for itself. But really cultivating those connections with customers so that you can get that get that feedback. And so many companies are scared to talk to their customers, it just boggles my mind. So many executives, I should say, are scared to talk to their customers.
John Southard 22:39
Yeah. And in my experience, some of that is because the old adage, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. So we’re making money doing things a certain way. However, if you do things a certain way that doesn’t involve empathy, you’re going to plateau. And there’s another case in my business career where that’s exactly what happened. And they just needed to start a conversation with customers. And once they did that, things started to change. And I could move on to the next step in the framework. So
Maria Ross 23:12
that’s the first phase, what’s the second stage of the framework
John Southard 23:17
deliver overt needs. So these are needs that are pretty much plain as day to everyone involved? Meaning you or I could be dropped into a Vietnamese village in 1967. Give us a few days, and we’ll look around and go, Oh, yeah, they definitely need a school house, they definitely could use a pig. And they definitely could use a water well. So it’s like starting empathy, you start to understand the overt needs that are going to improve their day to day lives. And a lot of that just them telling you what they need. I don’t like quick wins. So let’s, once we’ve built that foundation of trust and mutual respect, now let’s start delivering them the over needs. And then once the overt needs are being met, you move on to delivering covert needs, which are the needs that the customer doesn’t even know that they have. And once you expose that to them, now you’ve gone from a foundation of trust to lifelong trust.
Maria Ross 24:21
And that’s the third stage as delivering, yes. So how do you how do you recommend that companies discover and articulate what those covert needs are if their customers don’t even know it’s a need? I’ve I’ve always been, I find Steve Jobs, a fascinating figure because when I wrote the empathy edge, I spoke to someone who worked directly with him. And he has got a horrible reputation as a mercurial leader and not the best people person as a leader. But when it came to to users when it came to customers, he was so in lockstep with them, and not just how they wanted to Use the product itself. But what did they want to accomplish? What were their lives? Like? What? What were their goals and build the product that they don’t even know they should be asking for? That’s why Apple is so innovative, because they’ve given us things we didn’t even envision. So how can I? How can sort of like your everyday company and everyday CEO, who says, I’m not Steve Jobs? How do they figure out what those with those
John Southard 25:27
covert needs are? What I think you just spoke to it is you have to think beyond just sending out surveys. And assuming that the responses you get tell you everything you need about your customer. And it goes back to the overarching message that I mentioned about my empathy framework, which is experience what they experience as best as you can. And this is where I really think design thinking is so important in pushing empathy forward in business, because and Steve Jobs, new design thinking as much as anyone, is it you can’t, you have to experience what the customer experiences with them. And when you do that, you start to see certain behaviors, and you start to see certain ways that they operate that you wouldn’t know if you weren’t there with them. And so, for the Marines, that meant medical attention, because they show up to these villages, you know, middle of nowhere Vietnam, and there’s no sanitation, they don’t take showers, there’s no electricity, there’s no refrigeration, there’s nothing. And their idea of medical attention, or hearing an open wound was boiling a spiderweb and water and then applying that. And what the Marines had to do is say, Okay, we care about these people now. And they need modern medical attention, but how do we deliver it to them. And because of their empathy, they knew how to deliver it to them, they just had to let the villagers come to them. So each Combined Action platoon had a medic, and he would sit there, again, consistency day after day after day. And over time, the villagers as trust was gained, showed up. And six months later, they’re suddenly taking aspirin, and they’re accepting the modernized medicine because that trust had been built in the covert need. medical attention was now an overt need. And the villagers now we’re getting these needs that they didn’t even realize that they had, because for hundreds of years, to no fault of their own, they thought all boiling spiderwebs and water work. And so in the same way, in the business world, it’s just applying that same concept. So for me with these apartments, it was living a day in the life of a tenant, riding the bus, it was the longest day ever, but riding a bus with her from one fast food job to the next. And that nine hours later, we’re back at the apartment. And you find out that if she would tell you up front, if I said, What do you need, she would say, I need a car. But then you start to ask questions, you start to experience a day in the life. And you figure out No, no, your need is a high school education, not a car. So once she realized, you know, that was this covert knee that she didn’t even realize that she had that changed everything because we were offering all the social services on site to improve their day to day lives. And then we started introducing G ed classes. Because you’re not getting to the root cause of your problem with a car, you’re probably actually at your problem.
Maria Ross 28:45
But how do you balance that with what you know, the mission of the company, there’s only so much they’re not in the business of providing education for router ends, right? So where do you draw the line of like, that’s all important information, but we have to focus on what our business is capable of delivering?
John Southard 29:05
Yeah, and that’s where the business case for empathy is really important and understanding
29:12
that in order to employ some
John Southard 29:15
type of empathetic strategy, or an empathy framework, the people at the top app to be involved. They have to it’s not going to work, probably if they’re not. And so as the person who understands the importance of empathy and wants to employ empathy, you have to give them a business case where regardless of what a mission is, or what their strategy is, it’s undeniable that they have to do these things rooted in empathy. In order to move forward as a business like you are losing money. You are you’re costing yourself revenue, if you’re not doing X, Y and Z grew,
Maria Ross 29:54
but I’m going to push back on that a little bit. Again, they’re not in the business of providing an edge Question for people there in the real estate business. So what? What could they do based on that information that they’re getting?
John Southard 30:07
So part of that was there, they weren’t paying for it. So they weren’t getting them an education because we partnered with local community leaders and nonprofits that came to the site to provide so that was all done. Got any extra cost
30:22
them, right, but a huge value add? Yes,
John Southard 30:26
exactly. What isn’t, then,
30:28
then you get to Okay.
John Southard 30:31
Once this happens, and now we start to see tenant staying longer and more tenant showing up. And now we’re at 90% occupancy, you know, like, Okay, let’s do more, let’s do more. And then you’re at 100% occupancy with a waiting list, right? Where are your prior there at 60%? Going? What do we do here? Well, and
Maria Ross 30:49
this is the thing that leads to viral word of mouth. Like, again, what I love about this is they didn’t have to, it wasn’t extra cost, it might have been extra effort and coordination, but uncovering that need, and then filling it. That’s what differentiates you from every other real estate company out there, every other apartment complex. So when people talk about, we have to find something to differentiate ourselves, start with what your customers need, start with empathy for the people that are already in your orbit, and figure out what you can do for them that makes sense financially, and resource wise, but it’s those little touches that those are the things everybody talks about, those are the things that get pressed, those are the things so this idea of executives, and you know, even senior marketing executives chasing something to be viral or chasing something to get word of mouth, just engage with empathy, fill the gap. And that will actually be your differentiating factor that will actually help you get the buzz that you seek. And, and it takes time. And it’s you can’t see the ROI of it right away. But we’ve got to get out of this short term thinking, because if you really want your company to be sustainable, we’ve got to have our eye on the longer term as well. And there might need to be investments made in something that you might not get an ROI from for three, four or five years down the road. And I know that there’s a lot of leaders who say, Well, I’m not going to be here then. So I don’t care. But those are not really the leaders you want to have.
John Southard 32:31
Exactly. And all those needs that customers have today, they’re going to change in six months or 12 hours. Yeah, and you’re not engaged with your customer and understanding their needs and their changing needs, which means you’re empathizing with them, then you’re just you’re going to fall behind your competition. You
Maria Ross 32:51
know, it’s really interesting, I’m gonna put a link to this episode, I interviewed the CEO and founder of hint, Kara, golden. And they do such a great job of making customer feedback, the linchpin of their growth strategy in terms of what new products should they develop distribution strategies, all the things. And because they are so close with their customers, they discovered use cases for their product that they had never thought possible. And it helped them increase their reach and increase their ability to message to different groups of people they never thought possible, they never would have had that information. Even with the best focus groups, they might have put together without the consistent feedback of customers, knowing that customers felt they could give feedback to the company, and having people that actually listened and actioned on that feedback. For sure. So briefly, you mentioned it at the beginning, but just refresh us on the fourth stage. Preserve
33:53
the trust.
John Southard 33:54
So you’ve gone through all of this effort to do the first three parts of the framework. Now, you can’t ruin it. By hiring someone who doesn’t fit that culture of empathy that you’re trying to create. It’s just for if you have if you’ve started to create that culture or create that strategy or project that involves empathy. And there’s a person existing in your company who doesn’t fit. HR people close your ears you got to get rid of it’s not worth keeping them around. They’re going to ruin it. And there’s plenty of examples in everyone’s careers. Have that one person, I don’t care if it’s a 20 person, startup toxic Rockstar, yeah, or a fortune 500 with a billion people working for it. Like it, there’s that one person that just stirs everything and can really create that mistrust. And it’s just not worth having around. And for the Marines, it was their lives, so we can’t risk having what they call the shitbird come into our community. And so what am I I say in order to preserve the trust, you have to kick out the ship birds.
Maria Ross 35:05
It’s true. And we’re not talking about people that don’t think like you or see the world like you or, you know, we’re not advocating to black diversity. What we’re saying is if people fundamentally don’t hold and align with those values, those are not going to be a good fit for the company. When we say cultural fit that can sometimes get mishandled. And we don’t mean cultural fit in terms of it’s not a cultural fit, just because everybody looks and sounds like you. It’s a cultural fit. If people can’t embrace the values of the organization, and see the customer and see each other, the way we want them to see people. And if you’re not on board with that, if you’re going to come in of like the customers the enemy, that’s probably no matter how good that person is at their job. Like you said, it’s going to cause more problems than benefits. Yeah, it’s
John Southard 35:59
one thing if someone doesn’t understand and needs to be trained and needs to be taught. That’s one thing, right? But it’s another thing, if the person understands or is trained, and is taught and still
36:13
doesn’t alone, is still burning everything down behaviors
John Southard 36:17
that you’re trying to cultivate. Absolutely, absolutely.
Maria Ross 36:21
So talk to us, as we wrap up, what are some final bits of advice you can give to some leaders or even folks who feel like they don’t have the authority to make changes? What would be one or two big changes you would advise a company to make in order to be in closer lockstep to their customers and engage their customers more fully?
36:49
I would say, you have to figure out a way to experience
John Southard 36:54
what they experienced. And I know that sounds so generic, but I think it’s so true. And there’s different ways that you can try to experience with the experience, it doesn’t mean you
37:05
have to live with clay. What are some ideas?
John Southard 37:08
So there’s things like contextual inquiry, now we’re getting to like design thinking methods for empathy, where you can just observe somebody and ask them questions along the way. Or even in our hybrid virtual world, there’s ways that you can empathize with people. If you’re in Canada, and they’re in Mexico, you can do diaries, where you go over every day, pay at the end of the day, write down what your pain points were in all these things. And then let’s review them. And so the first thing is you have to try to figure out what’s the first step for me that I have to take to cultivate mutual respect with my customers. And it’s, it’s not hard, I just think what’s the first thing I need to do to start that process?
Maria Ross 37:52
Well, John, this has been some really great stuff. So more to come, highly recommend folks check you out and check out the book, all your links will be in the show notes if people are interested in finding out more about your work and hiring you to speak but where for folks on the go listening on the go, where’s a good spot for them to connect with you or find out more about your work?
John Southard 38:13
Your spots would be LinkedIn, John southern party, um, there’s not many John Suthers out there. So she you should be able to find me. And then my website is John Southern speaks.com. So either one of those are the best ways to get a hold of me and to see more about what I do. Great.
Maria Ross 38:31
And thank you so much for your time and your insights today. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do. Please rate review and share with a colleague or friend. Don’t forget to connect with me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
