Most high achievers never look back and see how far they’ve come. They tend to focus on perfection and not wanting to let anyone down. Because of their outward focus on others – colleagues, customers, or employees – They often don’t know how to be empathetic and tender with themselves.
Empathy starts with self-awareness and self-care so leaders who want to achieve their goals would be wise to practice tenderness and empathy for themselves first. This kind of self-reflection and tenderness for self will help them be an effective and inspiring leader for others.
Today, author and leadership coach Lauree Ostrofsky joins us to talk about self-empathy and owning your leadership style. Lauree shares how challenging and yet worthwhile self-empathy can be. We discuss the downside of empathy and how to balance focusing on others with caring for yourself. She talks about how to develop our sense of self so we don’t fear reinvention, we can take better risks, and avoid unnecessary worry or anxiousness that doesn’t serve us.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Dig into your fears and discomforts. It may just be an opportunity that is outside your comfort zone and making you feel vulnerable. Fear is an opportunity.
- Make a list of compliments you receive as you receive them – we need the physical evidence of what we have accomplished and where we have been to see how we’ve gained the confidence we have now.
- Sometimes you have to give yourself space before you can give space to the other person to hear and empathize with what they’re saying and needing.
- Own who you are without apology. You can invite people in and invite them to also own who they are.
“There’s a way to value people and value yourself at the same time, and it really takes understanding of yourself.” — Lauree Ostrofsky
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About Lauree Ostrofsky, Founder, Simply Leap
Lauree Ostrofsky, PCC, CPC helps women leap: clarify what they want and feel more confident putting themselves out there. For more than two decades, she has been an author, coach, and hugger with a client roster that includes executives at IBM, Microsoft, Harvard, the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, and the Girl Scouts of the USA.
Her books are, Simply Leap, a happy how-to about facing the fear of reinvention and enjoying the crap out of your life, and I’m Scared & Doing It Anyway, a memoir about her own reinvention after a devastating brain tumor diagnosis at 28.
Connect with Lauree Ostrofsky:
Simply Leap, LLC: http://simplyleap.com
LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/laureeostrofsky/
Facebook: http://facebook.com/SimplyLeap
Instagram: http://instagram.com/lauree_ostrofsky/
Threads: http://threads.net/@lauree_ostrofsky
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books
Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Most high achievers never look back and see how far they’ve come. They tend to focus on perfection and not wanting to let anyone else down because of their outward focus on others, be it colleagues, customers or employees. They often don’t know how to be empathetic and tender with themselves. I know this game too well as a former straight A student and almost manic overachiever, I’m an Enneagram type three, the achiever, if that tells you anything. So if empathy and empathetic leadership starts with self awareness and self care, as I lay out in my book The Empathy dilemma, leaders who want to achieve their goals, would be wise to practice tenderness and empathy for themselves. First, this kind of self reflection and tenderness for self will help them be an effective and inspiring leader for others today. Author and leadership coach Lauree Ostrofsky joins us to talk about self empathy and owning your leadership style. Lauree helps women leap clarify what they want and feel more confident putting themselves out there for more than two decades, she’s been an author, coach and hugger with a client roster that includes executives at IBM, Microsoft, Harvard, the US Department of Health and Human Services and the Girl Scouts of the USA. Her books are simply leap a happy how to about facing the fear of reinvention and enjoying the crap out of your life, and I’m scared in doing it anyway, a memoir about her own reinvention after a devastating brain tumor diagnosis at 28 Lauree shares how challenging and yet worthwhile Self empathy can be we discuss the downside of empathy and how to balance focus on others with care for yourself. She talks about how to develop our sense of self so that we don’t fear reinvention we can take better risks and avoid unnecessary worry or anxiousness that doesn’t serve us. She served up some great insights today. Take a listen. Welcome Lauree, to the empathy edge Podcast. I’m so excited to talk to you today about self care, empathy, taking the leap all of the things that you have going on. So welcome to the show. Oh, thank you so much. I’m thrilled to be here. So share with us a little bit of your story. We heard your bio, but how did you even come into this work about helping women and helping women leaders and helping them feel more confident in themselves? Really? I
Lauree Ostrofsky 03:11
think probably, like most people you talk to, it’s an inside job. It is having done that myself, been my first client, is really the way to do it. I My background is in marketing, and I was successful, and it, you know, in the marketing and PR world, and realized that I was getting paid for skills that I was less good at, and not being paid for the skills I was most praised at. And that really led me down a road and a journey to find this work that actually aligns with my greatest skills.
Maria Ross 03:43
Who So tell me more about that. What skills are you referring to? So
Lauree Ostrofsky 03:48
in the office, back in the marketing days, I was praised for reading a room. I could go into any meeting, and I could tell you, especially client meetings. I can tell you, you know a client, the client said this, but they’re really not happy. We really need to do that other thing, because their voice changed when they talked about it, like I could tell my bosses that. And I started getting on teams. I started having the team members that no one could figure out how to manage. They were suddenly put on my team as well, so I could switch the way or alter the way that work that we were doing on a team to fit the personalities and the needs of the people there. And those are very natural coaching skills, and yet they weren’t great. It’s not like I could pick up the phone and convince the New York Times to cover us or something like, right? I guess you knew it, but like, I would have a panic attack while on the phone. Yeah, in a way, wasn’t the same. You know, in these other instances, of
Maria Ross 04:50
course, and I sympathize, I empathize with you, because I come from a marketing background as well. And what I realized later, as I did, like strengths, finders. And things like that. Yes, were these skills about engaging people that I was often told they’re really hard to work with, or, you know, especially marketing and working with technical teams. Or when I was in advertising, working with as the account manager, with the creative teams, there were people I was told were cranky or they were really difficult to work with, and I would just intuitively build bridges with them, and I would have conversations, and I was like the one marketing person they liked and trusted. It’s so funny that your experience is very similar, and I never in a million years, way back then, thought I’d be doing the work I’m doing now. But it does to your point. It does feel more authentic to be doing this and like tapping into the things that we’re good at. What I love about what you said is you were intuitively engaging in empathetic leadership, engaging and meeting your people where they were, so that you could get the best out of them, so that they could do their best work and they could thrive. And ultimately, this is my whole point about making a business case for empathy that’s good for the business, that’s good for the team, it’s not just good for the individual. So when I hear folks say, like, well, I don’t have time to coddle my people, it’s like, Well, do you have time to help your people? Help you make your bonus this quarter? Because that’s what you’ll do if you engage in empathetic leadership, right?
Lauree Ostrofsky 06:17
We, you know, I turned staff members around, yeah, because they suddenly understood things in a way that they didn’t before. And so and we made clients happier. Yes, I actually had clients who would just call me about something that was going on during the day, because they knew I would listen. Yeah, and it wasn’t. And it was like, we’re keeping this business because the level of trust is high enough. And I think you know it depends on the organization. If they value trust to that point they they’re and that they’re willing to develop it. But I think that you know that that mutual trust has an empathy edge to it.
Maria Ross 06:54
The Empathy edge, I love it. Now, your most recent book is simply leap. It’s about facing the fear of reinvention and enjoying the crap out of your life. I love that definition or that description. You also wrote a memoir, I’m scared, and doing it anyway, about your own reinvention after a devastating brain tumor diagnosis at 28 and you and I shared my audience knows about my brain aneurysm experience, my memoir, rebooting my brain is all about that, and I’m just wondering I’m seeing the connection between the work that you’re doing and the experience that you had in terms of almost being scared to embrace a different way of being being scared to embrace your own power when you’re dealing with your coaching clients. And how I’m relating this to empathy, and maybe my listeners, is overcoming your fear of embracing empathy and understanding that it’s a strength, not a weakness. And so can you talk a little bit about that fear? I’ve thought about it that way. I love it. Yeah, because, I mean, we really are reinventing leadership, and some people are really scared about that, and we know who they are because they’re the ones forcing everybody to go back to the office. They don’t know any other way to lead. They don’t know any other way to be. So talk to me a little bit about the role of fear in preventing I mean, it’s obvious how it prevents reinvention, but where do you see it really getting in people’s way?
Lauree Ostrofsky 08:17
Oh, that’s such a wonderful question, and a really wonderful way to think about how we manage our teams. I think, well, one of the things that I say to clients is, when you’re afraid of something, it’s usually a good sign. It’s a sign you’re on the right track. Because if you didn’t want whatever this is, it wouldn’t be scary, it would be easy, or you wouldn’t care, and so, so I feel like something is there in that is that discomfort is actually a sign. And sometimes we take signs as, oh, I shouldn’t do it, because it’s a sign that, you know, it’s not easy, or it’s not aligned, or I feel about it, you actually have to dig a little bit deeper, because sometimes the fear or the discomfort is, this is new. This is forcing me to stretch in a different way. There’s an opportunity here that I’m attracted to, but I’m I feel vulnerable about and when we feel vulnerable, it is easier to move away from it than it is to move towards it. I
Maria Ross 09:18
think that’s, yeah, but it’s also, you know, so it’s how I repeat to my clients over and over again. Fear is an opportunity. It means you’re on the right track, right. Go a little bit further. Take another step closer to right, because fear is different than the ick. Fear is different than the like, Oh, I know in my bones this is the wrong way to go, right. It’s that. And I love this because it’s so applicable to so many leaders nowadays who are just scared of changing their well, they’re not changing. The leadership paradigm is changing, and they need to upskill different things that they didn’t have to before. They need to learn how to lead in a hybrid environment, in a remote environment. It. They need to lead in a way that marries the personal and professional, because we don’t park our humanity at the door. And I have empathy for them, because that’s really a new way for many people to operate. And so they’re feeling a lot of the what I call the snap, back to bossism, is fear. It’s I don’t know how to do this any other way than the way I was always doing it before the pandemic. So, right? Pandemic was just this blip.
Lauree Ostrofsky 10:25
Yeah, what happens if I get it wrong and, quote, unquote wrong, right? I think that the risk feels too high. Yeah, the risk feels too high for me to get it wrong or to try like it’s either it’s very binary kind of look at it either, either I’m doing the safe thing that I know how to do, yeah, or I’m risking it all. And we also have to create the safety in in risk.
Maria Ross 10:53
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I talk about both and leadership all the time, and I love it. It’s like it can be both. I’m gonna try this and I may fail, but, you know, it’s both hard and it might be worth it. Like, instead of the either or like, it’s either gonna be black or white, I’m gonna fail or pass. We’re all learning I love, you know, speaking to a lot of other my interview guests, especially those CHROs and those chief HR officers who are talking about the fact that, look, this is an experiment. Nobody’s got this figured out yet. So we’re trying different things, and we’re keeping ourselves open to feedback. And we know some of it’s not going to work. We already know that going into it, but we have to try it, to see what we can learn and what we can tweak and what we can grow. And so I love that concept. So you talk a lot about, you know, focusing on your own confidence, focusing on taking care of yourself so that you can show up as the best version of yourself. Can you talk to us about how challenging but also worthwhile self empathy can be, and can you describe what you mean by self empathy.
Lauree Ostrofsky 12:01
Well, the example that I give is actually, if you imagine walking a kindergartner first grade or their first day of class, and you walk them into the class, and you remind them, Oh, I’ve packed your favorite snack for you. And you watch them, you know, figure out their seat. They’re like, well, these people kind of look friendly, you know, you’ll meet someone, and you kind of stand outside the door and you really hope for the best with them. And we have that parts of ourselves too. We are the kindergartner that we have to care for, around the fear, around the vulnerability, around the discomfort. We have to remind ourselves of the snack we pack, and the tenderness that we would give a child going into a new situation, we need to give ourselves some time. And I think that most of us mean teacher ourselves, or mean parent ourselves, or like, buck up kid. You’re gonna go in there like you don’t get to feel anything. And actually it’s totally normal. It’s totally normal for a kindergartner. It’s totally normal for us, yeah, and I think that kind of self kindness. So when I mentioned the child, most of us still like, oh, yeah, I get that. Okay. Well, so then what’s our version of that? What’s the version of packing our snack to enter that boardroom, right? And that meeting, we’re not sure how it’s going to go or to try something and experiment. So you were saying experiment, it triggered. I always talk about research to my clients that as a students, as people pleasers, as externally focused folks, we have a tendency to look for our a’s and our gold stars externally, and yet we’ve got to give them to ourselves, right? And the easiest way, one of the easy ways to do that, is to imagine everything as research. Because we know research, as you just said, as we’re collecting data all the time. If all this is is data, if every meeting and conversation you have is data, then, then we can come together and analyze that data, as opposed to, I’ve got one shot in this moment, everything you know, failure, that’s it. Yeah, the world will end. Yeah, yeah. But it’s really that those that wording that’s going to make it so much easier for us to to approach with openness, I know, and
Maria Ross 14:26
that can get hard. I’m a type A overachiever, external validation gal. I’m the achiever on the Enneagram, and I get it, and this is the thing I always I struggle with, and maybe some of my listeners do too. I feel like I’m so compassionate. I can be not always. I can be compassionate and empathetic with other people, but when it comes to myself, and I try to do, you know, tender, like I love the word you use, tenderness, tender self talk with myself, I have this little voice that, like, says you’re just placating yourself. You’re just babying yourself. Like you’re fooling yourself. And it’s really interesting to try to figure out, well, where’s that voice coming from, and is that actually what I subconsciously think about other people who I’m comforting. You know, it’s like this whole metaphysical Well, I don’t, let’s, I’m not going to turn this into a therapy session for my listeners, but, but I’m sure that there are a lot of other high performers as well that like, well, that yardstick is good for you, but not for me. And I’m wondering how we break ourselves of that pattern to say, Why is your yardstick so high, and if I may, say unachievable,
Lauree Ostrofsky 15:35
right? Well, one of the things I think that comes up is because we’re so future focused, we don’t always notice the path that we’ve been on. We don’t always, we often can notice the thing we don’t know now, but not the thing we didn’t used to know, right? And because when we look back, it seems so quick that we figured that out. It didn’t feel that way. No, when we were staring it in the face, you know? Yeah, trying to figure it out. And so I, like a lot of my work, is, do you remember two months ago we talked about this? I, you know? I find that actual, real examples work the best, especially when we have a very loud inner voice that might be the mean teacher, the main parent or the you know, you’ve got to figure this out pretty fast. I’ve so I often have my clients make a list of compliments you’ve received as you receive them, or a list of things that you accomplish as you accomplish them, so that way you have something to refer back to. We actually need, we need the data. We need the physical evidence. And I know this sounds simple, but most of us, high achievers never look back, and don’t allow ourselves to like like, judge ourselves for looking back, too. And so the beauty of recording in whatever way. So it could be a note on your phone or a list by your on your desk, or a post it note or something, the small amount that we can do, the tiny, easy way that we can do it, really makes a difference, because then the data doesn’t lie. Yeah, absolutely.
Maria Ross 17:19
I talked about this totally
17:21
lie Yes,
Maria Ross 17:22
100% and in the empathy edge, when I had my section on how to strengthen your empathy as a leader, my previous book, one of the tips I had was to build your self confidence. And that was one of the actual tactical tips, was create a folder on your email or in, you know, I have one in my file drawer too, and that’s where I statue. I have one on my on my email called sweet stuff, and that’s where I put all the things, where someone’s going, oh my gosh, you did this amazingly. You did this great job. Like I put that there because we have to go into our interactions with other people with that tank full, with that sense of self grounded. Because if we don’t, that’s why that that’s a tip for strengthening empathy, is because if you’re if you’re not broken, but if you’re feeling hurt, if you’re feeling unsure, if you’re feeling depleted, exactly, you cannot take on another person’s point of view without defensiveness or fear, and so it’s a reminder of going back and on those days when your confidence flags, going back to those files, going back to those notes, going back to the you know, it’s so funny, because just the other day, I was reading feedback forms that were sent to me after a conference where I spoke and I got, I did my own evaluation from the stage, and I got really great feedback. This was from the conference organizers. And 90% 95% were like, Oh my gosh, so positive. Like, this was so useful. Loved your presentation. La, la, la. And then a few people got their knickers in a twist about the fact that I mentioned I had a book they thought I was selling from the stage because I mentioned my book, and I mentioned that I was going to be at a book signing at the event right after my talk, which I was just telling people so they knew why I was running out of there. So whatever. But of course, what do you do as a high achiever? Right pages of feedback, and then I shut it so funny. I closed the document after I had read only the like, pretty much the negative ones. And I stopped myself, and I said no, and I opened it back up, and I read only the positive ones, which were most of them, and I skipped over the four or five kind of negative ones. And I thought, why do we do that to ourselves?
Lauree Ostrofsky 19:39
Oh, my God. I know it’s so important to remind ourselves that our brains do that naturally, yeah. And so we have to do everything we can consciously to shift our brains Yeah, away from it, yeah. It is even, you know, it’s a natural human response, okay, I know it was supposed to help me with like bears and. Yeah, exactly, right. It’s really not useful right now, no, and yeah. And it’s so interesting, because I talk with my clients a lot about I mentioned data already, but it’s even you know when with your response, or responses when you send out a newsletter, or when you you know are kind of collecting research. It’s like, well, some people didn’t like it. So does that mean we should change our direction? Well, actually, let’s talk about context. How much of this is about context, right? Something about them that was happening, the number of people that event like, how many? Statistically? Yeah, if only four out of out of 50 responses said, do it differently? Well, statistically, you never, yeah, that’s
Maria Ross 20:44
not a trend line. Yeah,
Lauree Ostrofsky 20:46
right. And so we kind of have to do that with ourselves, with responses like, what you’re talking about, it’s like, Okay, what’s the statistics here? What’s the other context? What side of the stage were they sitting on? You know what I mean, like, what? Oh my gosh. Other things that I can I can consider this from before I integrate it, before I take it on, right, or
Maria Ross 21:08
before I create that false narrative for myself of what’s going on. And, you know, there are times where, yeah, the majority of feedback about something could be negative, and then that’s a learning opportunity. And I always talk about this with, you know, I’ve had a few books. We talked before we started recording about the fact that I wrote a memoir about my brain injury recovery called rebooting my brain. And I have hundreds of positive reviews. I have emails from people thanking me for the book, like that’s what I wanted to do, is I wanted to impact and help other people so they didn’t feel as in the dark as we did. Yes, did I get a few one star, two star ratings on Amazon and on Goodreads? I did, and I recall those exactly, not the other 400 other right? But to the people that thought my story wasn’t harrowing enough for them, like that, I wasn’t close enough to death for them, like Yeah. So I call it my point being I call it the strainer method, because some of the feedback, and even the negative feedback about books I’ve written in the past have actually been really helpful. Like, if someone’s saying, well, she seemed to ramble on in this section of the book, I can look at that and I can say, oh, I need to do a better job editing in the future. Or, yeah, I can see how that that was a little repetitive in that portion. So some of the feedbacks been constructive and good, even if it’s slightly negative, but it’s, it’s that strainer method of like, take what’s good out of the feedback that you’re getting and leave the rest and take and not just accept the positive. I don’t mean that, but take what’s if it’s negative and it’s constructive, and you can learn from it. Do something with that going forward and make the next iteration, the next thing better than before. So
Lauree Ostrofsky 22:47
and again, there’s also, there’s also the ability to separate yourself and your sense of self. We were talking about self empathy before your sense of self can be it should be separate than the feedback you receive. And I think especially if you’re if you’re an over, over empathize, or if you’re a people pleaser. Further than that, it’s really hard that boundary is a little porous, yeah, and and so where we get our sense of self from is going to determine also how far in comments get. Yeah. And so I think being aware of when you’re in the right head space to even receive them, that’s so important. I hear right now. Can I really receive this right now, or is it going to be piled on with the thing I’m already upset about, right or I’m already fixated
Maria Ross 23:39
on? And that’s why, you know, with the new book with empathy dilemma, I talk about being I talk about self care and clarity, and that includes self care about your own boundaries and and clearly communicating them, and communicating not in an aggressive way, like this, is my boundary. Do not cross it. But you know, being clear about the boundary, because you can set a boundary if someone’s if you, if you’re a leader, and someone’s coming to you with an issue and you have something going on, or you, you know, I always use this example of like, every Tuesday you’ve told your team you’re going to leave at you need to log off at four o’clock because you’re coaching your kids soccer game. Someone comes into your office at 355 about a major issue with a colleague or a major issue with a project. You don’t have to give up your boundary, but you can acknowledge and say this is really important to you, I can tell, and that means it’s important to me, but you know that I have to leave early on Tuesdays, so I’m going to clear some space for us to have a conversation tomorrow, and I want to be able to be fully present and be able to listen to you versus you trying to get everything out in the two minutes I have before I leave, because that’s not really going to benefit you, and that’s a way of acknowledging someone and seeing them and being empathetic as a leader, while still holding your own boundaries, and then to your point, taking care of yourself, to be in a position where you. Can hear the person, where you can listen, where you can offer constructive feedback and advice if asked, but you like you said, it’s so important you have to be in that right headspace. And part of being an empathetic leader is recognizing when you’re not and being open and honest with the person to say, this is not a good time. It’s not going to give you your due if we have this conversation right now, can we have it tomorrow?
Lauree Ostrofsky 25:25
Yeah, there’s a way to value people and value yourself at the same time 100% I mean, that’s really what we’re talking about here, and it really takes understanding of yourself, because not all of us have taken the time to understand what our own triggers are, and to even notice how we feel in a moment, to recognize what’s, you know, what someone else is bringing to us, why we’re responding the way we are. Oh, what does that say about actually, where I am right now? And to be able to say, you know, what I’m gonna need a minute, yeah, so I can really hear you. You know, let me go to the restroom and come back. Or, you know, why don’t we take a five minute break here? And it’s, yeah, it’s kind of giving ourselves the even the one minute of space, the space to understand, like, okay, what are they coming to movie with? But first, where am I? For sure? And the better we can train ourselves about it, you know, makes it makes us better partners, parents and colleagues and bosses.
Maria Ross 26:24
So, you know, we talk about empathy as being very, very focused on the other and being able to see their point of view and understand their perspective without dipping into people pleasing, but just being there for them and understanding them. It doesn’t mean we have to agree. It doesn’t mean we have to change our decision, because what they’re bringing to us, but what are some tips you have to balance that focus on others and still care for yourself? What techniques or practices have you seen work for your clients or for yourself? You know, I’m the introvert, and I would say that owning my introversion has been one of the best things,
Lauree Ostrofsky 27:02
actually, to be a leader and also to recognize my own needs. I have led a lot of meetings. I’ve spoken in a lot of events as well, and I needed to recognize how much time I needed before the meeting or the event and how much time I needed after, because I’d force myself into networking before and then getting on stage Never a good place, because I’m already depleted when I need to be at my highest energy level, right? And and the same. And then I’d set up meetings for the day after, or at least the morning after. And it’s like, Well, that isn’t the way my energy levels work. And what I found is when I admit to other people I’m an introvert, one people are like, Oh, my God, I am too. There’s so much relief, yeah, and that, and I think it allows me to own my leadership style in the way that works for me, and I feel, I honestly feel less apologetic about it, and I think that that is the part that I help clients most with, is what’s a way to own who you are without apology, right as an invitation instead? How can you invite people in by owning something about yourself that maybe opens the door for them to own something too or make room for both of us? I
Maria Ross 28:29
love that theme of owning your leadership style, and I go back to as well, the dark side of that where some people read books or hear that advice and they swing the pendulum too far the other way of becoming unyielding, of like I said, the passive aggressive, like this is my leadership style, and I’m not going to change. There’s a way to communicate that to people in a loving, open way. Yeah, not that you have to be someone you’re not if, but, you know, there’s a way to communicate that that’s not so so much putting a barrier in front of yourself versus just, hey, this is who I am and this is how I operate. Do you find that it’s hard for people to balance that, you know, so they they come to you, and then they take that advice, and then they’re, you know, pissing off co workers or colleagues because they’re being aggressive about their boundary setting. Do you know what I’m saying? Is there a dark side to that?
Lauree Ostrofsky 29:24
Well, I would say that actually, the thing that I would I would more likely say, is that people’s responses to your boundary session, boundary requests, it’s often about them. So I’ve talked with I lost my mom last year. And so, like, there’s a lot of, you know, kind of grief about that, and folks will have lots of opinions and say, like, you know, she’s in a better place, or, you know, are, don’t you feel relieved? Or whatever, you know, like, people say these things, and it’s never about you, no, it’s always about them. So I would say that, I mean, for me, the context. Best about that is, is normally when people respond to your boundaries, as long as you’ve given some effort, most people respond from their own place, and if they’re not great about boundaries, they get really uncomfortable about yours. So it could be an invitation for a conversation I wouldn’t give up with the negative. You know, if you’re getting a negative, like someone’s really holding boundaries, is it because of something that’s going on with them? Is there something that can be named that actually brings you closer together, as opposed to further apart? And we’re not in a society where that is encouraged. But I think that you have the books that you do, I do, the work that I do, to really turn the tide, yeah, and staying in it is so powerful, yeah, yeah. It really can change our environments for the better.
Maria Ross 30:55
I love that. I love that so much. So let’s talk a little bit more as we kind of wrap up on this idea of fear, this idea of fear of being an empathetic leader, or being a people centered leader, this idea of fear around I’m going to get taken advantage of. I’m going to get walked all over, all of the false narratives that some leaders tell themselves about bringing empathy to work and even getting to know the people on their teams or the people that work on a personal level, not that everybody has to be best friends, but yeah, you know what’s what do you think is behind that fear? I know there’s probably a variety of reasons. People have different neurodiversity challenges, people have different social comforts, but what do you think is behind some of those fears? And how can we help leaders and colleagues get past that fear of connection as much as we can within a workplace?
Lauree Ostrofsky 31:48
Gosh, I would, I think I would go back to what I was saying before about the the positive side of fear that I think that was, it was a bit destructive the whole culture around fearlessness, that we need to be fearless, yeah, and I think fear has so much to teach us, and so fear in a work setting can also be really positive. There is an opportunity here, and I think that if we can shift in ourselves, how we feel about fear and what we say toward like, the narrative that we tell ourselves when we feel it or when we notice it in others. I I think that we see more of the opportunity there. I know that isn’t exactly what you’re no, I
Maria Ross 32:33
really like it. Like, it’s so important. I like where you’re going with this. Because I think there’s I’d like to just pick at that for a little bit, because I’d like to understand what you think about how fear is viewed in our culture and also in a corporate culture. What do you see as the negatives around that, and how can we change that narrative, like whether it’s about fear of empathy or not? I that’s just such a I’m just curious about that.
Lauree Ostrofsky 32:56
I think that we see weakness in fear. The fear is an example of weakness, and anything that could be termed weakness, we run from, we avoid, we shut down in ourselves or other people. And if we can wait a beat and just notice the feeling first. Notice the sense in the room as a conversation is happening in a meeting, it gives us a chance to see the thing underneath it. And fear and anger are the first responses. They aren’t usually the actual feelings underneath it, right, right, not many people wait to see what else is there or stay curious enough. And I think that perhaps is the because we’re afraid of fear. That’s the thing that comes through in our culture.
Maria Ross 33:59
Wow, yeah, I love that perspective, and it’s making me think about, what if we’re not the one that’s operating from fear. So what if we’re on the other side of that table and we’re dealing with a leader or a colleague that is unable to connect with us because of their fear? Do you have any advice for listeners or us about that. How do we how can we help them build that trust? How can we help them feel okay with that connection? I’m thinking specifically of, you know, I moved this summer to I don’t, I don’t live in the San Francisco Bay Area anymore. I live northeast of Sacramento, and I met a lot of new people. And there’s, there’s, there’s one person that it’s there’s a lot of fear from that end of creating a connection, and it manifests the social awkwardness, and I don’t know how to respond to it. My instinct is to double down, which is probably making it worse, right? I’m trying to be familiar. Increasing, yeah, increasing. The. Fantastic. It’s probably not good. And so I’m wondering, and I know I’ve worked with people like that too, where it’s sort of like I’ve made it my mission to get them on my side, to, like, win them over, right? Because I can sense there’s a fear around that. Or, you know, if you are a high achiever and you have a boss you think doesn’t like you, well, you double down on that. Well, I’m gonna make you like me, I’m going to make you have a relationship with me. So do you have any advice for the people that are probably not your clients on the other side of the equation, how we how we can interact with people operating from fear in a positive way to create a positive relationship? Yeah,
Lauree Ostrofsky 35:37
so a few things, because one is curiosity, and curiosity is so the answer. In so many instances, we can say, curious, Oh, my Lord, but let’s just be clear, Curiosity is not easy. It is not the first thing most of us pick no
Maria Ross 35:51
and some people and some people feel attacked if they feel like I’ve noticed this too, when I lean into curiosity, especially about this one person, it sounds like I’m peppering them with questions, right? And so then they’re like, Yeah, you can see them backing up, you know, right, physically and emotionally, but yeah. So
Lauree Ostrofsky 36:08
I just, I want to keep that in the background, because I think it’s, I think that we can stay curious in our minds, even if we don’t. Are verbally curious, I certainly mean, like, yeah, Curiosity can also create a pause. And I really think one of the themes in our conversation is pausing as much as you can. And so if you can get yourself to pause and internally stay curious, you might notice you might notice more about their tone of voice. You might notice more about their facial expressions. You might notice the thing that they just are talking about that you were glossing over and like, oh, wait, this is really important to them. I didn’t even realize so pausing and curiosity is always number one. The second thing is often, especially if your peers, the person is waiting for someone else to go first. When it comes to anything vulnerable, I’m not going to let my guard down until I can sense it safe. And if you’re noticing some kind of reticence in the other person, yeah, it might mean you have to create a safe space, not by throwing
Maria Ross 37:14
yourself out, spilling all your dark secrets. Yeah, right.
Lauree Ostrofsky 37:18
What more about kind of you know? More about, you know, sharing first, yeah, or and leaving space. And the other thing is that people are on different paths. And yeah, so some people take longer to to warm up. And I always keep in mind this colleague that I work with that I really thought hated me, and oh my gosh, because she was so short. She was working in New York, like, there’s a lot
Maria Ross 37:44
of you know, she was very curt and direct, yeah.
Lauree Ostrofsky 37:48
And she said to me, once you’re in, you’re in, meaning, she’s got a hard shell, but soft on the inside. And I always remember that, yeah, that the hard shells are often really soft on the inside, and that’s why they’ve built up the hard shell, right? And so, so my job, or your job, isn’t to crack the shell, it’s to notice when the softness kind of appears, right? You know, is it when they talk about their dog, or when they talk about a, you know, a certain moment, it’s like, yeah, it’s there, and I can see the glimmers of that soft interior. I’m going to be encouraged to be more patient, yeah, to wait it out, to notice how bits are coming to me. And they’re going to then be more comfortable softening their shells too. I love how this is coming full circle. Because the only way that you have the capacity to do that is to be compassionate with yourself and show up with your own sense of self, your own self compassion, your own self empathy, otherwise you are too busy with your hamster mind of thinking about, how am I coming across? What am I doing? You missed those cues. So yes, you just you brought us full circle. I love it. I love it. You’re welcome. Lauree, I could talk to you much, much longer, but we’ve got a wrap, so I will have all your links in the show notes, and especially your link to simply leap, and your other books and all your goodness. But for folks on the go, where’s a good place for them to get in touch with you or learn
Maria Ross 39:18
more about your work.
Lauree Ostrofsky 39:20
Yeah, yeah. So my business is simply leap, as you said, and that’s the best way to find me, simply leap.com because leaping is not simple, but talking about it really helps. So simply leap has just been such a, just a great name for me. And so, yeah, so I’d love to see you there. I also have my, you know, my books are there as well, and wonderful and new membership program that I’d love for them to be part of.
Maria Ross 39:45
So thank you, Lauree again, for such a great conversation. So much fun to talk to you and kind of tease out all these different concepts. Hopefully we’ve shared some good insights with our listeners and just really thank you for being here. Oh, thank you so much. And thank you. Everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard, you know what to do, rate, review and share with a friend or a colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice. Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place. You.
