Today, Maria is not messing around! Learn why change is hard, even when it’s a good thing, and what you can do to break free of past habits. When infusing more empathy into your leadership, culture, or brand, you may face internal or external resistance – but that has nothing to do with whether you are going in the right direction or not. It’s a sign of transformation.
Hear how our brains work and why it is so painful to learn new skills and habits even when they benefit us. She shares what her brain injury recovery taught her about building new skills and strategies to get to success, how adapting to change is like learning to drive, and why the status quo is just easier on our brains. You’ll leave this episode fired up to evolve your leadership style and bring your organizations along with you to adapt and thrive in the modern business era.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
You have to appeal to both emotions and logic. Logic and data are never going to be enough to get people to take action.
Change requires us to use the more conscious parts of our brains and does not allow us to operate on autopilot.
The friction you feel during change is not because you’re going down the wrong path, it is that your brain is trying to take you down familiar, habitual paths.
“If logic were enough, we would all embrace positive change with open arms.” — Maria Ross
Okay, for us, humans, change is so hard, even when it’s a welcome change. But why? Well, understanding how the human brain works helps solve this puzzle. I had the chance twice on the podcast to talk to Melina Palmer, an expert in behavioral economics and brain science. She shared research on both episodes, which I’ll put in the show notes about how our brains consist of the elephant and the writer. The writer is our conscious, logical data driven part of the brain. It knows what it needs to do and where it needs to go. But the elephant is more our subconscious and at times emotionally driven brain, it may decide where to go based on how it’s feeling, or what flowers smell nice, or hey, there’s a nice puddle to trudge through over there. Knowing that we have conscious and unconscious parts of our brains is nothing new. But when we apply that thinking to how people make decisions, how they can be moved to action or to new behaviors. We understand what’s missing when we unveil a grand new change on our teams and organizations, even when we try to sell others on a new idea.
Through my brand strategy work, I’ve long talked about appealing to emotions as well as logic, and that we overestimate how compelling logic can be when persuading someone on a new idea. If logic and data were enough, no one would smoke, overeat, use drugs or drive drunk. And if logic were enough, we would embrace positive change with open arms. Who wouldn’t want to experience more joy and less pain? Who wouldn’t want to make their workplace more diverse and inclusive? Who wouldn’t want to choose collaboration over stalemates and infighting? And yet, see something Molina said in these episodes resonated so much with me as a brain aneurysm survivor, she talked about the fact that any behavior change, even ones that benefit us require us to use the more conscious parts of our brains, we have to pay more attention when we change habits. We have to learn new skills and rules. We don’t get to operate on autopilot anymore because we’re taking a new path. When I was in recovery after my ruptured brain aneurysm, I learned this lesson well. Things that had previously been so easy for me prioritizing, assessing inputs juggling multiple tasks, even memorizing names are now suddenly out of my grasp. Those executive functions had been impacted based on where in my brain that nasty little aneurysm burst, and where the bleeding had destroyed brain cells. That’s why fatigue is such a long lasting and common side effect of brain injury and stroke. But our brains, they’re miraculous. You’ve heard of neuroplasticity, this is where your brain creates new connections and pathways to get the same job done. But the result is that you’re no longer on autopilot. Your brain works harder because it’s learning again, for all intents and purposes, a new skill. Just like when you learn to drive right. You gripped that steering wheel you stared unblinking at the road. You diligently put your turn signal on, counted how many cars lengths were in front of you to keep your distance consciously check your mirrors. And you juggled all of this while still navigating to where you want it to go. It was a lot of work, and it was exhausting. And then it got easier and became second nature. Muscle memory I like to call it now for better or worse, you don’t think is hard when you’re behind the wheel anymore. It’s not as taxing on your brain. But get yourself into a bad Midwestern ice storm and it all comes back to you. Change is like that even good change. We know through research that empathetic leadership is good, empathetic cultures, leaders and brands find tremendous success regardless of industry. We know our writer, that seeing hearing and valuing our employees and creating more inclusivity reaps Countless rewards to our business decisions and performance.
We boost innovation, we increase engagement of both our employees and our customers. We collaborate better, we lead the market, we create a sustainable business that can weather harsh storms. We may even boost stock price or generate great PR along the way. And yet, change is hard. Even when we know what’s good for us, we need to acknowledge that the behavior change required for some is a big ask. That’s not to say it’s not worth it or shouldn’t be expected. It’s just to say, hey, we hear you, we see you, we know you’re trying and you may stumble and fall, and that’s totally okay. So don’t be surprised when your leaders balk at going through emotional intelligence or empathy training and skill building. They spent years decades operating in one way to get them to success in their careers. And now they’re being asked to change their ways. There’s that word again, change. For some, it’s like being asked to skate backwards, it’s harder, and expect that in times of stress, they will fall back on familiar patterns and habits, even negative ones. Know that transformation takes time. But the effort and patience are so worth it in the end. That friction you feel is not because you’re going down the wrong path. The friction you feel is status quo, trying to claw you back into familiar patterns. Don’t let it when speaking at marketing conferences, and to my own clients, I often tell them to face the fear. When you’re blazing a trail, that means there’s no trail there. So it’s okay to be afraid.
Embracing empathy is a core leadership skill and business strategy is the new way of the modern workplace. We’ve evolved, thank God and so things change. We’re called to rewrite old rules to strengthen or master new skills. It doesn’t matter what the workplace used to be, or how we used to define leadership, even if those rules got you to where you are today. As a successful leader. We also used to ride horses and buggies, and dump our toilets out of windows, but we’ve evolved and so to must our organizations, our leaders, our cultures, brands and workplaces. Your job as a leader now is to adapt and to make things better for those who come after you to transform and succeed beyond your wildest expectations. Thank you for tuning in to this hot take episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked it, please share it with a friend or a colleague, get them fired up to transform. And of course, please rate and review if you haven’t an opportunity. Until next time, please remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care, and be kind.
Change is hard, even when it’s a change that makes our lives easier. Today, I speak with Melina Palmer, CEO of The Brainy Business, expert in behavioral economics for organizations around the world, and the author of What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You. We give you a refresher on behavioral economics and how our human brains work – especially the conscious and unconscious parts of our brains. We discuss why change is hard, even when it’s a good change, and how leaders get change massively wrong. Melina will share her framework called “It’s Not About the Cookie” and how it applies to any employee initiative. She also shares her top tip for those who want to have more influence at work.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
Change doesn’t need to be hard, you just need to understand what motivates the people you are trying to change – education alone will never be enough.
Create a culture of feedback and input, solicit that feedback, then actually implement those ideas.
Be transparent about your change management. The more transparent you are along the way, the more people can trust the process.
“Every conversation and initiative is a change conversation or initiative – you are either in the midst of change, in the wake of change that has already happened, or building up to the next change.”
— Melina Palmer
About Melina Palmer, CEO and author of What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You
Melina Palmer is the founder and CEO of The Brainy Business, which provides behavioral economics consulting to businesses of all sizes from around the world. Her podcast, The Brainy Business: Understanding the Psychology of Why People Buy, has downloads in over 170 countries and is used as a resource for teaching applied behavioral economics for many universities and businesses. Melina obtained her master’s in behavioral economics from The Chicago School of Professional Psychology. A proud member of the Global Association of Applied Behavioral Scientists, Melina has contributed research to the Association for Consumer Research, Filene Research Institute, and writes the Behavioral Economics & Business column for Inc Magazine. She teaches applied behavioral economics through the Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab. Her first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, was published in May 2021 and was a finalist in two categories of the International Book Awards. Her second book, What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You, is out as of October 2022.
Change is hard, even when it’s a change that makes our lives easier. How can you make things better for your employees, customers and other stakeholders while your employees may be on board with the logic of a change, but if they’re resistant, scared or disengaged, you may want to look to behavioral economics and how the brain works to have better results. Especially in this era of the great resignation and quiet quitting. You may need more insights into your employees than they’re even able or willing to tell you. Today I speak with Melina Palmer, CEO of the brainy business expert in behavioral economics for organizations around the world, and the author of what your employees need and can’t tell you. You may remember Molina on our show before talking about her last book, what your customer wants and can’t tell you. And she’s delivering even more insights into how the brain works. So, you can better understand your employees and why your change initiatives will succeed or fail. Today, we give you a refresher on behavioral economics, and how our human brains work, especially the conscious and unconscious parts of our brains. We discuss why change is hard, even when it’s a good change, and how leaders get changed massively wrong. Melina will share her framework called it’s not about the cookie, and how it applies to any employee initiative. And she shares her top tip for those who want to have more influence at work. This is such a gem of an episode. Stay tuned.
Maria Ross 02:55
Welcome back, Melina Palmer to the show. We’re excited to have you again.
Melina Palmer 02:59
Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.
Maria Ross 03:01
And we were just talking before the interview about the fact that you wrote this amazing book what your customers want. But can’t tell you and then on the heels of it, have launched this other book, what your employees want and can’t tell you, which is also timely right now with the great resignation, quiet, quitting, improving employee engagement, all the things that we always talk about. So, but before we dive into this, because your approach is so unique, I want to give people a little refresher on what behavioral economics is, because that’s what we talked about on your last episode, which we’ll link to in the show notes about how to determine what your customers want, they can’t tell you so tell us a little bit about what behavioral economics is and how it applies to the employee employer relationship.
Melina Palmer 03:47
Yeah, for sure. And thank you so much for having me a second time delighted to be here. So, behavioral economics is the you know, the tagline for my podcast is the psychology understanding the psychology of why people buy, I have adapted that a bit as you know, the podcast is four and a half years old now. So, there’s some adaptation in that, and that I’m saying, understanding the psychology of why people act, choose, change and buy because there’s, you know, a little bit more nuance to that. But essentially, even though we all have brains, we don’t intuitively understand how they work. And the way that we think they do or should doesn’t typically line up. And so, you had a problem with traditional economics in that it assumed logical people making rational choices and absolutely everything that they do. And that’s not really the world we live in which we know because we are all human where we have intentions to do something we know what we should do. But we ended up doing something else, of course. And we can’t usually explain why and even you know, on the customer side of things, you know, you do surveys and people We’ll say, of course, I would buy the toothpaste if it had baking soda in it. So, you spend a lot of money to put baking soda in the toothpaste and nobody buys it. It’s not that they’re lying intentionally in general. But they just really don’t know what they would do or why they buy things. And that’s because of this sort of misunderstanding in the way that our brains process information. So, in the case of change management, working with teams within organizations, you get a lot of times where people say should. And that’s, you know, the brainy business we say, should as a four letter word. In that anytime you say, well, people should just get it, people should be on board with this thing, it should be easy, they should be able to find that information that shouldn’t matter. It does. All those little things matter and can be so much more impactful than we realize, which can be a negative, if we don’t want to address it, right? If we just look at it at this pile of stuff that’s working against us, and we don’t want to deal with that’s a problem. But on the flip side to say, hey, if we work on some of these little simple things, it can snowball in a way that’s really positive very quickly, without having to do huge expensive change initiatives, we can look at change differently. And it can help us to have better conversations and impact at work.
Maria Ross 06:22
I love this, because as we were talking about early in my career, once upon a time, I was a change management consultant with one of the big six at the time, the big six, I don’t know how many big ones there are now. But and that was exactly our role was we were the people side of change. So, we would come alongside the programmers and the tech teams who were implementing new technology, and address the fact that you can’t just flip a switch and people’s behaviors will change just because you put in this fancy new system. And the fact that you needed a communication plan to go with it, you needed a training plan to go with it, this wasn’t going to be an overnight process to get people to drastically change their jobs. One, one project I had, we were actually teaching factory plant workers. First, we had to teach them windows. And then we had to teach them the software, right? So, that’s the thing we will do, they’ll just get it it’s more intuitive da da da da, they just click these icons. They don’t know what click an icon means at that point in time. So, it’s it’s all of these things you have to factor in to actually make a change successful. And then, you know, often the whole reason this group popped up within the firm that I worked for, was because they were implementing these amazing technology solutions. And they were falling flat on their faces within these organizations. And they didn’t know why. And so, it’s exactly you know, now it’s a field of study, and people understand the brain better and all that great stuff. So, I’m really heartened to see that we’ve progressed, because this was very, very long ago. So, tell us quickly, in your opinion, why is it that change is hard? It seems that seems like a dumb question. But I think there’s merit to dissecting it. Why is change hard, even if it’s a change, that people would welcome?
Melina Palmer 08:07
Yeah, it’s a funny thing in that change doesn’t have to be hard. What is hard is when we try to force change in the way that again, we think it should happen, instead of working with rules of the brain that already exists, to help us kind of looking at swimming downstream instead of upstream, right. So, the process can be much easier if we work with the rules that already exist, which is where behavioral economics comes in understanding how the brain works. So, taking a step back from that, for everyone who hasn’t yet listened to that last time I was on that first episode would be to talk about how the brain works. So, if you were to think about your your brain as a person riding an elephant, and this is an analogy from a psychologist at NYU that I really liked, I think it just helps make this very visual. So, your brain is a person riding an elephant, you have the logical conscious writer knows where it wants to go, has a plan can see 10 steps ahead and is ready to go, right? The elephant may want to go in a different direction, or to sit down and not go anywhere, or just stop in general, and you can’t push or pull or logic it into going where you want it to go. Because it doesn’t speak the same language as you, but you can understand what motivates it and help to nudge it along to keep it on the path, right because you as the writer can see that. So, when we’re planning stuff within our businesses, we tend to think that our writer is communicating to other writers and we’re trying to appeal to them. What you really need to be doing is looking at what’s going to motivate the elephant because if you can lead the elephant in the right direction, then the writer will be able to explain why it was all such a great idea and they knew it all along and that’s where they were We’re going to be going and they feel really good about it. So, understanding that piece is really important when we think about communicating change and making it easier. And an example I love to give here is one of a company called the Literie. And they are an organization that is helping people to throw away and properly sort their garbage every time that they throw anything away, which is a very important thing that should be happening. And if I was to tell you listener, that your new job is that you have to be taking this on. And until you’ve gotten every single person to properly throw away and sort their garbage every single time, you can’t do anything else. You probably feel like your children’s children’s children’s children are going to be doomed, you know, to this task, because it’s something that people have been trying to change for such a long time and it’s nearly impossible. The problem is, if you sit down and take on that task, you probably think about it as Okay, people just don’t know what goes in what been the problem is they’re uninformed, they don’t realize if they knew they would change their behavior. So, we need a brochure or a video, or maybe they aren’t empathizing enough. So, we need one more commercial with turtles that have straws in their noses, or whatever it is to talk about the facts. And then they’ll be passionate about it just like I am. But that doesn’t work we know that doesn’t work with the literary has done is disassociated the understanding of why you think it’s important, with the actual action you need someone to take, which is just to sort the thing, right? You need it to go in the recycling, that’s all you really need. And whether they care about it, about the planet is secondary in the task, as much as we would love for people to care. So, they’ve turned litter into lottery tickets, hence the name of the lottery. So, they have smart garbage cans, when you put the bottle in the recycling, it’ll say it’ll give you a notification on your phone and say, hey, Molina, great job, you sorted that properly, you’ve been entered into the lottery. And if you put something in the wrong bin, or you throw in a rock or something that’s not supposed to be in there, then it says, nice try, do this next time and you could be entered in, they tested in movie theaters, and had 100% compliance across 30 days for different theaters in Sweden. And just everybody knew what to do, they just needed to be motivated to do it. So, working with those rules, makes it a lot easier to encourage change in a way that if you again, try to educate or tell people what they’re doing wrong, or or force them, or it’s makes it really, really hard. But it doesn’t have to be.
Maria Ross 12:41
Yeah, and I think that’s where the whole gamification of habits comes in, we see it in different apps that help you, you know, quit smoking or with nutrition, you know, they make it a game. So, it’s it’s working with the psychology of people versus just like you said, just informing them, if you inform them, they’ll do the right thing. And I often say, you know, to my brand clients, that you know, people will even if you’re selling b2b People buy based on emotion, and often they justify it with logic versus the other. We think we’re working the other way around, but we often don’t. And so I love this idea of again, working with the brain instead of against it. And using that as a mechanism in our own organizations to impact change. So, tell us why you think businesses have changed wrong. So, we’re, you know, and let’s get specific here. What kinds of change initiatives are we talking about? It could be anything from a restructuring to a new training development program, to a new incentive plan to I don’t know, a new organizational structure? You know, you tell us what, where are they getting it wrong? Is it one specific type of change, they’re getting wrong? Or it doesn’t really matter? Name your, you know, pick your favorite flavor of change?
Melina Palmer 13:55
Yeah, yes. So, it’s actually in just the thought that changes only big stuff like that. And that’s all that matters. So, the thing that you think you need an initiative for is not the only change that is impacting the brain of a person. So, when we were talking about, you know, smoking, or people working in factories, and all these different things that are repetitive types of jobs, our brains are running on habit and predictability and status quo, that elephant is processing millions of bits of information per second and being able to say, okay, I know how to do this. I know how to do that. I know how to do this. It wants to hold on to as much as possible and it does that with the status quo predictability and habits of how and knowing okay, I get treats. This way. I like going over there by that’s bad. Don’t touch that stove. Whatever, right? There are things that it knows to do when it doesn’t want to give up control to that conscious brain at any time that we have those habits up ended. In some way, we end up having to move stuff into that conscious area of our processing, which makes it so it’s slower and more difficult. You know, many of us had this process problem in the early days of the pandemic, where we would say, hey, I used to be getting up early, and I would be commuting and I went to the gym, and then I would be at work all day. And I would go out to lunch, and then I would go out for drinks afterwards. And, and, and, and was totally fine. Now it’s two o’clock, and I’m still in my pajamas. But I feel exhausted. And I didn’t even do anything, right? Why am I so tired. And it’s because a lot of those habits, even where you place your coffee mug, and where you walk to go to get a glass of water, or whatever it is, that all those habits used to be in that subconscious quick processing. And when they get moved, it’s difficult on the brain, and it makes it so bigger decisions have to be kind of run by that subconscious, elephant. And so it again, the problem is relies on the status quo. So, when you’re trying to change things, it feels very difficult, and is going to want to resist because it likes that status quo. So, if you’re trying to implement even a lot of little changes, like moving people’s desks are saying that they have to be using a different way that they send their emails or just even clicking this one button differently than what they’ve done. Or training a new person on the team. Things that seem like they shouldn’t be important. There’s construction outside of the building, and they have to take a slightly different route to work. Those can all be impacting the brain of that person throughout the day, in a way that will impact their ability to be receptive to change, even though they don’t realize it. So, thinking about change only as the big stuff is the problem, you want to be looking at the micro moments and trying to be collecting snowflakes, to create a snowball that’s going to help you roll down that hill of change, instead of letting all those small moments build up into this terrible tundra of nightmares. It’s making change way too hard.
Maria Ross 17:16
What a great analogy. And as someone who you know, suffered a brain injury years ago, I totally understand this concept of like your conscious brain and your unconscious brain because part of my rehab with my brain injury was was not relearning so much as stuff that I used to do on autopilot, I had to exert more energy into doing and it exhausted me faster. And that’s why when you have a brain injury, or someone you know, who might have a stroke, they get more fatigued more easily. And it’s because their brain is working on overdrive was before they were able to sort of be on autopilot. So, you know, we need to remember that that applies whether you’ve had a brain injury or not, because it’s how the brain works. And so, when when you’re dealing with that in an organization, and you’re trying to implement a lot, let’s say you are trying to implement a larger transformational change, are you saying that it’s wiser to break it down into the smaller micro movements and helping people through those micro movements, that’s going to help move the initiative forward?
Melina Palmer 18:15
Yes. And really, the point that I make, one of the points in the book is that every conversation and initiative is a change conversation or a change initiative, you are either in the midst of change, you are in the wake of change that has already happened, or you’re building up to the next change, right. So, you’re and very likely in some varying state of all of those things all the time, because there’s constantly change going on. And so, if you can focus on doing less things that are more of the right things, and being more thoughtful about the way that you communicate, you can reduce the amount of communication that is being sent and make it so that the brain is less stressed of the people on the team. And not that we’re constantly running around. Because time pressure of deadlines, even if they’re self-imposed, creates a stress that makes it so it’s more difficult to get out of that subconscious status quo. So, for everyone, myself included many, many, many times who has said in the past, I work better under a deadline. I’m more creative, I get so much done. You don’t. Alright, I need to hear this. I know that I’m sorry to tell you, it feels like you’re being much more productive because you have to commit to something in that moment to move forward. But studies have shown that you are much less creative because you’re relying on that status quo when you don’t have the time to be able to evaluate more. So, you’re just moving forward with that same template that you have used every time even though you had grand ideas of coming up with a new report or whatever it happens to be right when you had all the time in the world, you’ve got other, there’ll be a better process for this. And I could do that and whatever. And then you realize, oh, man, I need that report tomorrow. I’m just going to do this this time. And I’m going to grab this and do this and do that do this. But you’re stuck with what you used to do. And if someone said, oh, I need you to do this other thing. Like, no, I can’t
Maria Ross 20:27
Yeah, no more, I can’t do I can’t do it. So, tell us a little bit about this framework you call, it’s not about the cookie. What does that mean?
Melina Palmer 20:35
Yes. So this is actually I use the same framework for pricing strategy as I do for change management. Because even if you aren’t having any money, exchanging hands, you need someone to buy in on whatever idea or initiative you’re selling.
Maria Ross 20:52
Emotionally or psychologically, you need them to buy in, whether it’s their attention, or their time, or a change in their behavior.
Melina Palmer 20:58
Right, or being passionate about the project instead of working against it either. Right? Or unintentionally, right? So, to explain this analogy, I’ll have you imagine we’re having a conversation walking down the street, maybe we’re talking about change. So, we’re just chatting talking about the brain or whatever it is great conversation. And then all of a sudden, there’s this amazing scent that comes wafting down the street, it’s sweet, a little salty, there’s a hint of chocolate in there. And we realize a chocolate chip cookie are baking nearby. And it’s amazing. We’re still now talking to each other. But we’re more like kind of trying to find the source of the center, we’re like cartoon characters with arises drawing us down the street, right? So, then we get in front of the store, and we see there’s a line and we go stand in it. And they say, oh, today only it’s buy three, get one free. And here’s a free sample. And before we know it, we walk out of there each eating a cookie, and with one in a bag in hand, you know for later. So, that’s one scenario. Second scenario, same conversation, walking down the street, someone comes up and shoves a coupon in our faces and says, hey, hey, today only I have this special, you know, if you buy for cookies, you only have to pay for three of them. And I’ve got samples go? Guy, get out of here, right? We don’t want that. Can you tell we’re having a conversation. Now we’re talking about bad sales experiences and how terrible they are. And by the time we see the line, and are pitying those people who have lower standards than us, we’re writing Yelp reviews about how bad their practices are, how pushy they are, and we would never buy from them. Right. So, in the first scenario, cookies could have been $3 Each, maybe they were a quarter in the second one, it doesn’t matter, because it’s not about the price. And it’s not about the cookie, right? Even if they were the same cookie, the same pricing are off in either scenario, we were definitely buying in the first one, assuming they’re not like hundred bucks or something in a cookie. And we’re definitely not buying in the second one, right. So, in this case, it’s not about the cookie, it’s not about the change. It’s not it’s about all the stuff that happens before that initiative is presented matters more than the change itself. And what you’ll notice when you go through this in the book, because obviously this framework is a big part of it. All the same things happen all the same concepts and levers are pulled, but they’re in an opposite order. And so, it’s not just understanding the concepts, but how they are presented. And that priming, that sense of the cookies that draws that subconscious in, which doesn’t just have to be sent. But it is very important and can either attract or repel immediately and make your change initiative. Just totally off the rails.
Maria Ross 23:41
Okay, so, I love this because this is all about just the intangibles that surround a change initiative, where on paper, it looks like why wouldn’t everybody love this? Right? We’re, we’re going to afford a work week. Why doesn’t everyone love this? Right? And or whatever it is, whatever the change initiative is. And I think that’s so important, because you can leave a bad taste in people’s mouths from the beginning. We’re now they’re primed to see the negative in whatever decisions happen going forward than they are to see the positive. Is that kind of what you’re getting at?
Melina Palmer 24:14
Yeah, absolutely. And the same change presented in two different ways. So, if that four day workweek, you know, manager comes in and goes, Hey, everybody, I, I’m sorry to be the one to tell you this. I know you’re not gonna like this. Because I know change is hard. You’re not gonna like to shift things over. We’re switching to four days a week, and you know, I’m just going to need everyone to get on board with it. I know you’re gonna hate it, but we got to do it. Right. Everybody’s like, oh, I guess this is bad, right?
Maria Ross 24:43
Yeah. Everything about your body language is telling us this is bad,
Melina Palmer 24:47
Right. And we’re a herding species. And so even if we thought that we would have liked the thing, go, Well, I guess everybody doesn’t. Like this is a bad thing. So, we’re now we’re focusing on what’s bad about it. And why this isn’t going to be a good thing for us how it’s going to be difficult. We’ve been primed in this way. Whereas if that’s presented more in a way of, and you know, that first person’s like, oh, man, you’re gonna hate it, right? But if we come in and say, Hey, like great news, we have this opportunity that we’re able to convert over to a four day work week, here are some of the ways that we’re able to make this work. And perhaps, you know, just in the way this is presented, depends if people are able to provide feedback, and we want to make sure that we only ask for feedback if it can actually be implemented. So, to say, hey, we’re curious what you all think of a four-day workweek. And you think, like you were saying, I’m sure because our brains like to think they’re better, smarter faster than everyone else. So, we’re sure everyone’s going to like the thing that we like. And I talked about all these biases in the book as to why we’re built out this way. We present it thinking they’re gonna love it. And then you think I’m gonna give them an opportunity to feel like they’re providing feedback. And then I’m going to like, why write in on my white horse and tell them that they get a four-day work week? So, I’m sure that’s what they’re going to ask for. And you present it and they say, man, it would be great if we could all work five hours a day, seven days a week, instead of five days. And like, I hate a four-day work week. Wow. Yeah, but we’ve already built out the program. Right, like writing for it. And they all say, well, we hate this. I have friends that have that. It’s terrible. I would never want it. Thanks for asking us because we will all rebel and hate that thing. And you’re like, Oops, dun, dun, dun, exactly.
Maria Ross 26:34
Well, this brings up a great question that I had for you, which was what is the best way to solicit employee input? Because I know part of the challenge with that is number one, the actual solicitation of the input and the best modality in which to gather it one on one interviews, a anonymous survey, small focus groups, whatever it is, but also, you know, when you’re scared that it’s going to derail the initiative, because you’re going to have so many competing points of view, you’re never going to be able to please everybody, right? So. So what is the best way to solicit that kind of feedback from employees for change, especially knowing as you know, that even if you ask them, they may not tell you how they will actually respond in the moment. And they might tell you a false positive or a false negative when you’re gathering the research and the input. And then when you put the change into effect, their reaction is going to be very different. So that’s sort of the first part of that. And then if, as you answer this, you can talk about the important role of empathy in gathering that input and, and implementing that change.
Melina Palmer 27:39
Yeah. So, there’s a really great concept in behavioral science called the IKEA effect, in that we like and prefer things that we had some effort in building ourselves, we think they’re better than things that other people have built.
Maria Ross 27:54
Even after we’ve spent seven hours putting it together,
Melina Palmer 27:57
especially when we
Maria Ross 27:59
like, I’m never getting rid of those shelves,
Melina Palmer 28:01
My wonky shelf is way better than anything that you’ve created. Right, exactly. And so, this is all to where when we try to sell a house or something that we’ve put work into, and you think it’s amazing compared to what anyone else would have made, right? Because you have that labor of love tied to it. So, in the case of a business, the most important thing would be to be gathering feedback, kind of having this culture of input would be ideal, right? So, you’re you have some sort of a mechanism where people can be easily providing feedback that they can then see is valued. And not that every idea is always implemented every time. But when they have something that they think, oh, you know, I should recommend this thing, there’s a way to do that it goes somewhere, whether that’s anonymous or otherwise, I worked at an organization once where any suggestion you had that you could put in if it ended up saving the organization money, because in that case, you know, it was a streamlining, reducing expenses sort of initiative. If it got implemented, you got paid out different amounts. And some I think it was like 200 bucks, if there was something which, you know, as a teller or whatever role you’re in, you know, that could be really significant. For something I got a had a recommendation of not throwing away receipts where there was a process thing, that IT audit, it printed the receipt and you had people say, Oh, do you want your receipt? And then everyone says no, and they’re like throwing it away? Before you even answer and saying, Well, is there a button somewhere that we can have the default be to not print and you know, because we’re still wasting money. And so it was worth the payout, but I was able to just submit that at any time. So, that’s ideal, right? Where you can be submitting stuff all the time in varying opportunities. That’s not realistic at every single organization. I get that. So, one, don’t ask for fee back if you can’t implement it, so, if you’re too far gone, you know, find something else you can ask for feedback on but don’t ask, like we said in that four-day work week, it’s just setting yourself up to fail and for people to hate it.
Maria Ross 30:11
Right. The only thing worse than not asking for feedback is asking for feedback and then ignoring it completely, right?
Melina Palmer 30:19
So, when you can, though, except being able to make it visible, that you’re implementing something that was recommended by someone on the team somewhere, is very valuable. So, if you have an intranet, and you’re able to say, hey, Maria, in XYZ department submitted this, and we’re moving forward with it, because it’s saving the company, you know, 1% on every order. Thank you so much, Maria, you’re amazing. Like, yay, right? So, people get to see that when ideas are submitted, something is done with them, even if there’s didn’t make it through. And it’s varying levels, right. So, that’s something that’s very valuable. As far as getting a lot of buy in, without everyone then fighting over their idea not being chosen, I highly recommend, and I do this as a training for lots of organizations. It’s one of my favorite things. It’s called question storming. So, instead of brainstorming, where we have a very focused, we think we know what the problem is. And we’re coming up with solutions. We instead start with a statement that we attack with questions, there’s a different tie in in the brain to asking questions where we don’t have the same sort of ownership in a way that’s both valuable in presenting new ideas. People don’t like to come up with ideas in in brainstorming, because I might get saddled with that project. I don’t want to look stupid, you know, whereas if you just ask a question, you don’t have the same problem. Being part of that questioning process, we can all kind of embody the questions as they get generated, it helps to be part of a full process. And even if my question doesn’t end up being part of this initiative, it’s it’s a research piece that helped us all make our way that can be really valuable without getting people really pigeon holed on why their ideas, the best idea, and why wouldn’t everyone move forward with my idea? Sorry, no problem. And then just to answer the last piece, as far as the way you collect information, it is going to vary based on the type of organization, the type of team that you have, the way that you’re able to be implementing things, how large the projects are, you know, when you can be doing, actually asking questions, having as many avenues as possible, that are active as often as possible, I would say is probably the best strategy. But if you can only do one, and you know, that’s what you have, just make it the best version that it can be, and make it as visible as it can be when you’re using it to help encourage others to then continue to use that and it will grow and be more valuable over time.
Maria Ross 32:59
So, I hear you saying a couple different things there. If I can unpack that for a little bit number one, it’s it’s before you even have change initiatives, which we’ve already said, you’re always going to have, you’re either going to be at the beginning of a change, or in the change or dealing in the wake of the change is to create a culture of feedback to create a culture of input, where input is consistently and constantly solicited. And then something is done with those ideas. And so, then it’s not so shocking of like, all of a sudden, we have this company wide survey, something’s something’s up, right, like now they’re asking us our opinion, they haven’t asked us our opinion in three years, like, so. I love that idea of like priming the pump, so to speak, of, of creating that culture of input, even if it’s something, you know, relatively insignificant, almost starting there sounds like Okay, now we get that this is what management does. This is what the leadership team does. They’re constantly trying to get our opinion, whether it’s about where we should have our, you know, company holiday party, or how do we structure job titles, like, whatever, whatever it is. But then I also hear you saying, and this was the thing I learned as a change management consultant. The change doesn’t start at the implementation, the thinking and the communication has to start way before that. So that when the change is ready to be unveiled, implemented, you know, decided upon, it’s it’s not so shocking to people systems, like they feel like they have been part of the process. And that’s why, you know, when we used to develop communication plans, it didn’t start at the day the new system was implemented, it started months before that, maybe it was, you know, addressing the issue that the new system was supposed to solve, and just acknowledging that for people and then you know, wouldn’t it be great if and then also communications coming from different levels of the organization at different times. So can you speak a little bit to maybe like grading on a scale of A through F? How well organizations do with that Part of it of actually realizing that the change happens way before it actually gets implemented.
Melina Palmer 35:05
Yeah, I think like you said, there are plenty of organizations that are doing a better job of being able to present information earlier. But it’s important just to note, again, that it’s not that you spent months or sometimes years planning a change behind closed doors, and then we like to say, but we worked out all the kinks. So just like, there’s, it’s,
Maria Ross 35:31
We got it, we got it, it’s fine. We just put everything just trust us. Yeah, we’ve got right.
Melina Palmer 35:36
No, we didn’t ask you what you want in this, which is impacting your job directly. And not mine, but I’m smarter than you. So take it right. Not good. That’s not gonna go over super well. But also you don’t want if you ever have it be that, you know, tell team is like a single checklist item on your to do list. You are definitely not putting enough effort.
Maria Ross 36:01
You know, you’re not implementing change. Well, when yeah, it is just one task on your task list. Like, oh, did I tell the team this is happening? Great. Yeah.
Melina Palmer 36:10
Yeah. And so with that, and I have a setup in the in the book, where I’m talking through kind of the specifically in how you can use that cookie strategy to then be presenting information and looking at, say, like, you were you were, you mentioned, you know, if you were to ask, like say, hey, they’re asking for our opinion, and they haven’t done this in three years, what’s up, right, that curiosity, water cooler chat is going to be problematic for you, right, and that you can’t stop that. So being able to communicate more openly, be aware that if this is the first time that you have a meeting that is exclamation point required, and nothing else is or everything else is visible on your calendar, except for this one thing, or you’re telling people hey, I need you to sign this NDA before you come to this meeting next week. And I’m not going to tell you anything else. Know that that’s gonna be a problem. That’s really bad priming. I talked about that as burnt popcorn, right, right, are burning the popcorn. We’ve all been in the office where someone burns a bag of popcorn and no work gets done for hours.
Maria Ross 37:16
Because everyone’s gossiping and trying to figure it out. And they’re always imagining the worst-case scenario in their heads. I mean, this is the thing, you know, from a communication planning perspective from, from a, from a leadership perspective, there’s always that that does that tendency of leaders to want to hide information because they think that that’s the best thing for the the morale or the performance of the group. And it always backfires. Like, people know, something is up.
Melina Palmer 37:46
Like, yeah, you’re not as sneaky as you.
Maria Ross 37:48
Think you are. And I’ve seen it time and time again, with, you know, where an executive was leaving. And they’re like, well, let’s wait like a month before we tell the group that this is happening, people know. So, it’s better to be transparent. And I, you know, apply that transparency to change management as well, that, you know, the more transparent you are along the way, the more not, I don’t want to say accepting because we still need to, you know, we still need to address the elephant in the change, but the more people at least can trust the process.
Melina Palmer 38:19
Yeah, in the cookie framework. There are multiple concepts of behavioral economics in there, we have priming, which is that sense of the cookies, we have framing how we say things matters more than what we’re saying, you have herding and social proof, like the line. And then one thing we have there also is reciprocity. In the case of the cookies, it’s the free sample, a little gift that helps people to take a little bit more and when we’re selling things, you know, that’s a lead magnet podcasts that are free, whatever that we’re giving out. In the case of change, I do talk about this as transparency, authenticity, openness, giving people an opportunity to be part of the process, that is all a gift that you’re giving. And it needs to be made visible to show that they’re being brought in, not in a weirdly over the top way. But being able to say, you know, hey, here’s a little bit of what’s coming i I’m able to share X, Y, and Z, you know, share when you can be able to say I’m trusting you with this information, because I really value you as a member of the team and this there are a lot of tips in the book as far as not, you don’t want to be pitting team members against each other and say I really value you but I’m not telling Suzy so. Yeah, no,
Maria Ross 39:37
Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh. Well, and it’s also of this concept of of like you were talking about about the transparency and giving people a taste, but also just being honest there. You might not have every answer to every question. And it’s okay to report in this is this is what drives me crazy about organizations that don’t give status updates and they say the reason is we don’t know yet.
Melina Palmer 40:02
The no update update is no update up valuable.
Maria Ross 40:05
Exactly. Just say like, we know you’re wondering about X, we’re still working on it, then at least they know that it’s it’s being thought through. And it’s being addressed at some point.
Melina Palmer 40:15
Yeah, that’s COVID was such a point where we were able to see this, right, where organizations weren’t posting anything for days, and people are freaking out. They don’t know, am I going to be at home? Do I have to come in here? What’s the policy? What if I get sick? What if my kids get sick? What if? What if? What if, and they’re not even doing anything? Right? Right? They’re doing lots of things, but it’s not made visible. And that while curiosity is very valuable, in being able to create new programs, it is something that can really go awry and run amok, if we don’t get little bits along the way, to being able to have the, hey, today we met about this, we talked about that, you know, commit to having the update go out at 3pm Every day, saying something, you know, tomorrow, we’re gonna meet about this thing, whatever, right? Yeah, that makes a big,
Maria Ross 41:07
And that’s where I feel empathy comes in, because you’re imagining what the other person might be thinking and feeling and that they might that it’s not just like, simple curiosity, it’s turning into anxiety, right? So you know, I know, I might not know this answer till the end of the week. But these people are on pins and needles waiting to figure out what’s going on. It’s empathetic of me to realize that and send out a communication and say, Hey, I know y’all are, you know, worried about this? Hang tight, I should have more answers on Friday, it’s okay to say you don’t have the answer right now. But to address the feelings of the people in your organization of your employees, because that’s what they want, they want to make sure that you know, they’re still there, and that they matter and that they are valued. So, in the time we have left, I’d love for you to give one top tip for managers, or those who want to have more influence at work, whether they’re dealing with a change initiative or not, given you know, this whole concept of behavioral economics and understanding how the brain works, what’s one great tip for having more influence at work with your employees or with your colleagues?
Melina Palmer 42:11
Yeah, so my top tip is always to be thoughtful. And that’s how I end every episode of the podcast. It’s my email signature. And really in this way, it’s it’s twofold. So, one is to be thoughtful of your own actions I have. Part one of the book, as we’re moving our way through has two chapters. At the end, it says change is all about you. And it has nothing to do with you. Right. So, there’s the one side of how I’m presenting information, what my bias is doing, how that’s impacting decisions. And all these aspects. We didn’t even really talk about bias, but that’s a huge part of the book. And then the second piece of being thoughtful is to, like you said, empathize with that end user. And knowing that you can’t just ask them what they’re going to want. But there are ways that you can be bringing them in and say, I wonder why this happened this way, instead of just saying they’re difficult, you know, I’m gonna say, how might we be able to bring them in on this process? What what do they care about? What’s the value to that person? How might I learn from them? How can we both be right? You know, all these opportunities to expand your own approach to change and the way you present it, and the way that you communicate with others and to encourage them to be more receptive. being thoughtful is a really easy first tip to just question a little bit more.
Maria Ross 43:35
Absolutely. And that that is that is empathy. One on one right there is to just put yourself in the other person’s shoes and think about what might be going on for them, and then acting with compassion accordingly. So, thank you so much. Melina, for joining us today. Again, folks. The name of the book is what your employee wants and can’t tell you, and or what your employees need and can’t tell you and it’ll it’s going to be out now. So, check that out at all the places where you can get books, we’ll have all your links in the show notes. And Melina also is giving us a special URL, the brainy business.com/empathy edge again, it’ll be in the show notes. You can go there to get a free chapter of either of her books, or both of her books. So just real quick for people on the go. Where’s the best place? They can find out more about you?
Melina Palmer 44:21
Yeah, so the brainy business.com is a really easy place the podcast books connecting for speaking and anything is all there. And you can find me on most all the socials as the brainy biz (B-I-Z).
Maria Ross 44:33
Love it. Thank you so much for your insights today. Melina it’s always a pleasure to talk to you.
Melina Palmer 44:37
Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Maria Ross 44:39
And thanks everyone, again for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge. If you liked the podcast, remember to please share it with friends and colleagues. Don’t forget to rate and review. We love your feedback and we will do something with it. And in the meantime, until next episode, and our next wonderful guest. Please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
We, as marketers, all understand how important it is to get to know our customers. But what discipline are we bringing to that process? Do we understand the many levels of empathy we need to have for them, and how to translate those insights into the customer experience and product or service?
Today, Emily Vernon, shares so much wisdom about how to look at our customers’ experience. We talk about the cumulative experience and how brands can shift from being reactive to cultural moments to being more proactive. Emily shares the three altitudes of empathy – the layers at which we need to understand our customers in order to create an engaging experience. We discuss how brand experience is shifting from user-centricity to human centricity, and requires leaders to address more complex, emotional needs (yes, even in B2B!). We chat about how empathy should be viewed as a skill, not a trait. She also shares 5 empathy exercise types so you avoid seeing customer insight gathering as one-dimensional and discover which ones your brand is doing well, versus what you may be missing to get a fuller picture. Today’s episode may change the way you gather customer insights from now on!
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
You have to understand your customers as people, not as a broad, generic demographic. In order to connect with the right people, some people won’t like you.
B2B has evolved over the last 20 years, but it is important to remember that you’re selling to humans, who justify emotions with logic, but are still buying with emotion.
There is more than one way to look at empathy exercises. It is important to look at empathy from all angles, gather and analyze that information, and then implement with your team and see what sticks.
“We bring meaning in terms of how we live, we bring meaning in terms of how we do our job. There’s much more of a movement in B2B to start to look at things emotionally.” — Emily Vernon
About Emily Vernon, Customer Experience Consultant an, B2B Experience Lead
Emily consults Reckitt around the end-to-end experience for B2B hygiene solutions. For more than ten years, both agency- and client-side, she has enabled brands to better engage their audiences through experience, ranging from products to service rituals, physical environments to digital platforms.
She’s been honored to have worked with some of the top brands within work, travel, luxury and wellbeing including Lego, IHG, Clinique, Shimano and Converse. Collaborations with these brands and others have been featured in Highsnobiety, Hypebeast, Wallpaper*, Transform and Frame Magazine.
Emily’s experiences with stand-up comedy, offshore sailing and living abroad have cultivated her belief that we should always question the default.
We as marketers all understand how important it is to get to know our customers. But what discipline are we bringing to that process? Do we understand the many levels of empathy we need to have for them, and how to translate those insights into the customer experience and our product or service. Today, customer experience consultant and b2b experience lead for Wreckit, Emily Vernon share so much wisdom about how to look at our customers’ experience. For more than 10 years both agency and client side. She’s enabled brands to better engage their audiences through experience, ranging from products to service rituals, physical environments to digital platforms. She’s been honored to work with some of the top brands within work travel luxury and wellbeing, including Lego IHG, Clinique, Shimano and converse. Today we talk about the cumulative experience and how brands can shift from being reactive. In cultural moments to being more proactive. Emily shares the three altitudes of empathy, the layers at which we need to understand our customers in order to create an engaging experience. We discuss how brand experience is shifting from user Centricity to human centricity, and requires leaders to address more complex emotional needs. Yes, even in b2b, we chat about how empathy should be viewed as a skill, not a trait. And Emily shares five empathy exercise types, so you avoid seeing customer insight gathering is one dimensional, and discover which ones your brand is doing really well, versus what you may be missing out on to get a fuller picture. That last point was really eye opening for me. Today’s episode may change the way you gather customer insights from now on.
Maria Ross 03:28
Welcome, Emily Verdun to the empathy edge podcast. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation with you all about customer experience and the role of empathy in it. So welcome to the show.
Emily Vernon 03:39
Thank you, Maria. I’m so excited to talk about empathy with you today.
Maria Ross 03:44
Yeah, and you have such a great breadth of experience across some of our most beloved brands, Lego, Clinique, Shimano Converse. And I know right now you’re working with Wreckit, as the b2b experience lead, which is wonderful. But tell us a little bit about your story. Just briefly, before we kick off this great conversation about customer experience and empathy. What led you to this work?
Emily Vernon 04:10
I have always been enthralled with customer experience, even before it was a thing I started off in footwear. And when you do footwear, it’s so important to understand, say culture and daily life. And it made me want to go beyond footwear. And that’s when I started doing a lot more work in terms of experience strategy, looking at how your customers and audiences interact with you at different points. And it’s been really expanding, expanding from there. And one of the places I’m so passionate about is looking at brands that really help us to create our ideal lifestyles, and that’s why the brands that you mentioned, they’re generally within say like work, hospitality and travel luxury and well While being, because these days, we have so many options to customize things to what we need, how we need to live. And it’s also a passion of mine, because throughout my life, I have tried many types of lifestyles, whether it’s living abroad, or trying to live out have to carry on bags for the last couple of months. And it just shows me different ways of living, and different sides of my own personality. And I always admire brands that help us to live those types of lifestyles.
Maria Ross 05:33
I love that because I think we as authentic marketers, not marketers that try to swindle people, but authentic marketers, we spend a lot of time trying to understand our, our ideal clients and customers and not just from the perspective of how they use the product or the service, but what is their life like, and what are they trying to achieve. And yes, in the end, it is about selling products, but we’re trying to enhance their lives. That’s why we do it. We’re not trying to persuade someone to buy something they don’t need, but figure out what their needs are and what experience they want to have and figure out how we can help augment that. So, I love the way you put that about being interested in customer experience before it was a thing. So, let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about what you call the cumulative experience. Brands and companies are increasingly required to react to larger cultural movements. We talk about that a lot on the show about your brand can no longer not take a stand. And they have to be able to be speaking out about things that are impacting the lives of their customers and their employees. Because we can’t separate our personal and our work life anymore. It’s impossible. So, you talk about the fact that that these are currently reactive that companies are reacting to these things right now. And that they impact the customer and users cumulative experience. What do you mean by that?
Emily Vernon 07:01
Exactly, as you said, when we look at a brand or a company, we’re not siloing them in our minds, like I am now doing a purchase journey, I will not think about what you are when you’re in the news, or when I see something about you on LinkedIn. The community’s Experience is everything about that brand, and even its company and its greater actions. And it has an effect in terms of our perception. Because overall with customer experience, what we always say, is about total perception. And there’s just so much more awareness around what’s going on what that means to me. And actually, what that means to other people, I think we’re seeing couple of tall tales, where this is becoming quite important. The first one is there’s so much more emphasis on our different experiences, and how that is affecting our well-being. We’re not putting people into small boxes. And the more we’re seeing, say, our employee workforce as a lot of different individuals. The third one is, as you mentioned, it seems that there are a lot of cultural moments that brands are talking to, but it’s a bit reactive, which right now, fine, but how do we improve that going forward in the future, to make that more consistent, and even to give companies a bit more confidence into what they say, and then how they say it. And the third one is, as you mentioned, a lot of creatives are individuals and brands and customer experience roles went into those roles, because they wanted to do good wanted to do better. And those are certain muscles that they want to use, as well as help other people in their organizations to do the same.
Maria Ross 08:48
I love that. And I love that idea of moving from the reactive to the proactive because they think that that’s really where purpose and values and mission and vision, play a role. Because if you do the work of articulating and thinking through and putting a stake in the ground about what your brand and your company stands for, ahead of cultural moments ahead of political firestorm ahead of whatever’s going, you will know how to respond and people will expect you your your your best customers who are attracted to you because of your purpose and mission will expect you to respond in a certain way. It’s not going to be a guessing game of oh, this thing is happening. How do we think we should respond to it in the market? You will know because you have a playbook you have a guide. And I love that idea of starting to think about this. This is where all these different threads of things that people put off for so long are starting to come together with leaders have put off for so long in terms of that, you know, we don’t need a mission statement. We don’t need values we you know, we can just have a pretty poster on the wall. Now they’re understanding the important role that those things play in crisis in moments of cultural move. Minutes and in how they need to respond. And what’s been interesting to me. And I’m wondering if it’s interesting to you is to see the companies and the brands that have chosen not to say anything thinking in a very outdated way that by by not saying anything by not standing for anything, we’re staying neutral. And we’ll be able to appeal to the broadest possible market of people. Are you seeing a backlash in terms of that in terms of the customer perception of those companies?
Emily Vernon 10:31
Overall, I see that customers want to engage with brands that reflect their lifestyles and values and have those associations, there might be some brands where you don’t expect it. But there are others that have a lot more presence in your life, and more presence, in general, in terms of companies, where you expect them to say something. I’ve also seen companies where they’re actually speaking a lot more internally about issues, but aren’t reflecting that externally to show, hey, we’re thinking about this. But we’re going to concentrate our efforts in terms of what’s going on with our own people. It actually came up during a, I was in a meeting for a diversity inclusion committee, and it came up well, we actually don’t know who, where they’re talking or who they’re talking to. And it doesn’t always come up as a thought, with the approach to communication. Also, the important thing is not every single customer or user is going to perceive what you’re doing in a positive way, depending on where their their feelings are on a certain topic. There’s a really interesting study, because there’s a debate between, you know, when it comes to corporate social responsibility isn’t just a high percentage in terms of what people would do, what they say versus what they actually do. There was a study done in 2013, by the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth, and they were working with a chain, a grocery store chain in the northeast, to see if they talked about their corporate responsibility, what would happen in terms of loyalty, they talked about four different things, kind of environmental friendliness, community support, selling local products, and then treating their employees fairly. They found in general, this was positive people perceived this grocery store chain more, and they bought more products, except for one audience in terms of environmental friendliness, because their perception, their feelings toward that had the associate, environmental friendliness was something that was a little higher in price, perhaps a little bit more affluent in terms of its products and services, or wouldn’t be able to serve them, as we’re talking about, like on their day to day basis and their day to day feelings and needs. Which doesn’t mean you shouldn’t talk about it, it means you have to find what is the right way to talk about it to understand those different feelings your audiences have toward what you’re doing and what it means to them in terms of their overall experience.
Maria Ross 13:21
That’s so important, I think to and it’s, I think that’s why really understanding your customers, as people and not as this like, broad demographic, this generic what I always call the generic vanilla blob of people that doesn’t exist, you know, in real life, it’s really getting to know them as people and understanding that, you know, you’re not going to please everybody, and that’s okay, your brand needs to stand for something. And in order to be connected with more people, it needs to understand that potentially people won’t like you. I always used to use example, early in my career about Starbucks. And when I was living in Seattle, you know, there’s a lot of independent coffee shops in Seattle, they take their coffee very seriously there. And Starbucks knows who they’re talking to. And they’re not trying to convince every independent coffee expert, that they should be a customer of Starbucks, they know their lane, you know what I mean? And they know they know what their people come to them for, and what their lives are like. And that’s how they’ve been able to sustain the brand and introduce new products and new experiences that speak directly to those people. They’re okay with the fact that there’s going to be a group of people that still go to their independent coffee shop and absolutely hate Starbucks and they’re okay with it.
Emily Vernon 14:42
Yeah, and it makes me think there’s just so much so many brands telling, trying to tell us so many things that it’s just as important to, to know when you should speak up, and then when you should perhaps give someone else the mic. We we probably learned a little bit from The Webb telescope that there are a lot of galaxies out there. And it doesn’t mean that each one needs to shine as brightly all the time. I was really, I was really surprised to hear that there was like an estimate in terms of how many ads we saw a day, it was somewhere between like, six and 10,000 ads. And I’m sure we’re all like looking around and trying to see like, where are they, but we just don’t notice them anymore.
Maria Ross 15:25
They’re everywhere. It’s pervasive. Yeah.
Emily Vernon 15:28
It’s, it’s crazy, I’m sure, I’m sure I have a couple around that I don’t even pay attention to. And that’s where being consistent repetitive and talking about things over time. And again, or not talking about certain things really helps to connect to your right audience, who really wants to engage in that conversation, versus trying to force people in certain conversations.
Maria Ross 15:52
I love that well, and that’s the epitome of empathy, right is meeting people where they are. So that’s a great segue into something you call the three altitudes of empathy. And this idea of looking at feelings in a more structured way that helps us make decisions about the products and services and the experiences that we bring to market. So around each customer, or user, or human, there are three altitudes of empathy. Tell us about those.
Emily Vernon 16:19
The first, I would say the first thing with this idea of altitudes of empathy is what you just mentioned, we have to shift from really, customer or user Centricity to human Centricity that we don’t see them only in this functional or interactive way, there’s more to who they are than the customer personas that we might make. These altitudes really came out of the need to dimensionalize, who were looking at, versus trying to make it feel a bit. Like, try to make it feel a little bit like we’re checking off that we need to do a persona, or that we’re doing a almost children’s book, play by play with customer journeys, which is fine. Simplicity is great. But how do we start to look at someone with more depth? And that’s where this idea of altitudes of empathy comes in? When we look at them like this, the lowest altitude would be how you feel about something functionally, how is it working? Does it work for you very close in. Above that is your day to day, your day-to-day feelings? And sometimes when a brand or company is not involved? What are they thinking about? You know, for example, if we look at that study from the Tuck School of Business, what are their concerns and feelings just generally from a day to day, and are we talking to them or ignoring them. And then all the way above is this idea of our feelings to a more societal and cultural level. And that’s really the altitude today that we need to understand a little bit better, because that’s the greater context for everything that’s happening. And that altitude isn’t always included in our journeys. It’s almost the journey on top of a journey, not to sound like Inception, but it still affects everything below. And I believe if we can start to dimensionalize, those feelings will not only understand our audiences a little bit better, but perhaps can guide our internal teams a little bit more in terms of dimensionalizing these while actually now humans, and how they actually would come across the cumulative experience of a brand or a company.
Maria Ross 18:33
I love that. So, really quickly summarize those three for us before we move on, because I really want people to understand those levels.
Emily Vernon 18:40
Of course, the first altitude, the lowest one, very functional, the second one being more day-to-day feelings. And the third one, the feelings toward, say societal or cultural happenings.
Maria Ross 18:57
I love that. And is that something you recommend when you work with clients that they when they build these customer personas, or their profiles, or what have you that they’re looking at those three different altitudes?
Emily Vernon 19:09
I’m seeing it more and more as something that we need to work with. As we’re doing customer journeys. It’s coming into the coming into some of my work, but it’s almost like we can move even further and address those. So, it’s, it’s something that I see coming versus something that’s yet not yet fully established as a as a practice.
Maria Ross 19:33
Absolutely. And I know I do a very MacGyver version of that for my clients. We don’t do extensive, you know, in person interviews or things like that, but when we’re thinking about those personas, it’s not just about the persona in relation to their product or service. It’s how that person operates in the world. And what is that person like? What do they value? What do they fear? What do they worry about and it can often seem very disjointed for Chloe tends to go through that exercise of like, I don’t understand where this is going or what this has to do with our technology. But then you start to pull out the buying drivers from that. And it’s immediately apparent how it impacts what they’re saying about their product or service, and how they’re delivering it. So, as one tiny, minut example, if you go through this exercise, and you realize that you have an audience profile, where someone is constantly stretched for time, and is super busy and overwhelmed, you know, the answer is, you know, don’t create a, you know, six-week course for that, that person, it’s never gonna fly no matter how good it is, right? So that’s just like, one little example. But it’s amazing how, when you when you get a client to actually think about that, all the sudden, it’s like a domino, that they’re able to make these other decisions so much easier. Do you find that as well?
Emily Vernon 20:53
Oh, yeah, it reminds me of a time where I was working with hospitality brands from the US and they did wellness, because we all know traveling, we could be a little bit healthier
Maria Ross 21:04
Can be better. Yeah.
Emily Vernon 21:07
And they, they were looking to go into the Chinese market, which if you start to think about those upper echelons of feelings, from a cultural and society perspective, there’s so many aspects of wellness that are quite quite different, you know, when you think about food and health, physical exercise, and then mental well-being, and even the balance of environments, and the movement of energy, there’s a lot of, or at least pre pandemic, there’s still a lot of influence over say, traditional medicine or even functional way. And we spent so much time understanding what it meant in terms of the US what it meant in terms of the Chinese market, still a bit broad. And by establishing those, it was so much easier to make other decisions about the experience, because we were able to align on those upper echelons of feelings of how people felt about wellness. So, indeed, it’s almost like we do this within their projects already. It’s trying to identify and write them down. So that, as you mentioned, we feel that we are being productive when we’re doing something that might not feel related, but actually is just the whole umbrella in terms of the project.
Maria Ross 22:25
Yeah. And I find it’s a challenge to and possibly you do as well. I think, I think the realization is happening more and more, but with b2b companies, that you know, them saying, well, we don’t we need to understand the whole person because it’s the person’s buying this for their company. But so many of the decisions that we make, even in the work context, are a reflection of our own goals and values and fears and worries, and what that decision that we make for our company, even if we’re not writing the check from our own checkbook, what that says about us, and I feel like there’s there’s starting to be a movement among b2b companies where they’re finally getting that, are you finding that in your work?
Emily Vernon 23:08
I am, I’m smiling, because it’s always a conversation, when we start to look at products or services is something quite functional, where in the end, b2b customers are still b2b, or b2c individuals. And they have that expectation in terms of how a brand would talk to and also what is the meaning of your work. Going back to lifestyles we have, we bring meaning in terms of how we live, we bring meaning in terms of how we do our job. And indeed, there’s much more of a movement in b2b to start to look at things emotionally and to and to also acknowledge, indeed, there’s a functional aspect, but there still is the greater emotional aspect, it’s not going away, it’s that we’re, we’re giving a little bit more human to B to B, because in the end, people are running a business, they’re dealing with people, they’re dealing with clients. b2b is almost even more human than than b2b because of everyone involved. So, I have been seeing it. And I’ve been noticing an improvement, but still a repetition that we need to emphasize that in, in the b2b as in the b2b that we think about 20 years ago, it’s it’s definitely evolving.
Maria Ross 24:26
Absolutely. And and at the end of the day, we’re still selling to human beings and human beings are complex, emotional creatures. And I have found that even in the most technologically driven sales, there’s always been the old adage in tech, that when you’re selling to it buyers, they’re very skeptical of marketing, they’re very skeptical of gimmicks, they’re, you know, they just want the information they want the data. But we as human beings, this is undeniable. We tend to justify our emotions with logic. So, the emotion, the resonance comes first, even if someone doesn’t realize that it does. And they might be trying to find the data to just backup their existing point of view, versus that they’re very data driven. And if you show them the data they will come.
Emily Vernon 25:15
Indeed I was I, we were talking earlier about trying to find a new book. And one of the samples that I was reading was decisive. And they were saying that people.
Maria Ross 25:24
I love that book. And Dan Heath, we will put it in the, we’ll put it in the show notes. It’s one of my I love all their books, because of their their bent on us looking at the way humans work and operate.
Emily Vernon 25:39
Indeed, and it, it’s exactly what you mentioned that we do, in terms of confirmation bias, we are looking for those data points. But also, when you’re running a business, you’re not just dealing with facts, you’re looking at people’s livelihoods being judged for your decisions. I think that’s actually one of the hugest thing is, what will someone perceive this to be? And they had an interesting example of someone having to change their mindset to say, if my successor came in, what decision would they make, you know, getting in all those different data points in terms of what’s actually happening, how your stakeholders are feeling. And it’s, it’s always going to be emotional to some extent, and how you manage your emotions, and sometimes learn how to deal with risks as you’re running a business. So, decision making is huge. And empathy is a big thing for us to use as a point of making decisions. But we need to understand it a little bit better, so that we can also talk about it better with other people.
Maria Ross 26:40
I love that you brought in the idea of risk, because I did an interview, that I’ll put a link in the show notes, too, with Michelle Walker, about the risk empathy, and understanding just like any other vector of diversity, when we’re putting together high performing teams, we need to have an appreciation of where people are in their risk profile and their risk footprint. Because that can actually input the impact the productivity, and the performance of the team if there’s not an appreciation of the different risk fingerprints, which she calls risk fingerprints within that team. And so, you can also see how that relates to your larger customer base, that, you know, if you’re if you’re trying to target a customer segment, and you’re trying to push them too fast, and they have a different risk profile, you’re not going to succeed with that product or service. So, I love that you brought in that aspect because it that idea of the risk fingerprint does impact how we make decisions. And we need to factor that in another layer in of when we’re looking at our ideal customers and clients looking at that vector as well. So, I love that you brought that up. Talk about what you’ve seen in terms of people looking at empathy, as a trait versus a skill.
Emily Vernon 27:59
When we look at empathy, and honestly, the the idea of empathy is not that old, it’s about a century and what we thought it was, has changed. So, we have to give each other all a bit of credit in terms of trying to do empathy better, and to understand how to apply it. A lot of times when we look at empathy, we look at it as as a trait, or that certain people are really good at it, or functions are good at it, say designers or people within marketing or branding. But you don’t just go into a workshop and expect to be empathetic. It’s much like if you’re doing public speaking, you don’t just wait to go do public speaking to practice? Well, I hope not. But you wouldn’t usually do that to practice public speaking, even the best public speakers will do exercises to improve how they public speak, maybe play around with different ideas, and even develop further as a public speaker or someone who wants to engage an audience. And that’s where with empathy, we almost need to start thinking of it like a muscle or like a skill that we actually need to exercise it over time. Versus rely on that that one workshop that we all get really enthusiastic about to then use it, because we’ll be good at it. But it won’t be as impactful as if we’re trying to exercise our empathy over time.
Maria Ross 29:30
Yeah, I often talk about and I talked about this in my book, the concept of the empathy gym. And that you know, you don’t go run a marathon without training for it. You start somewhere and it has to be a practice. And when you go to the gym the first time, you’re It feels weird, you’re sore, you don’t do things right, quote unquote, it doesn’t mean that that one time is enough for you to be ready to run a marathon. And so this idea of that, we can just take a pill and automatically become empathetic. If that muscle has atrophied in us because we as humans are wired for empathy, it’s in our DNA, we have to build it back up again. And that takes more than one workshop, I actually was speaking to a possible speaking client the other day, and we were talking about the fact that they want to work on empathy for their management team, their sales management team. And I said, I am happy to come in and do a workshop, I can do that, and you can pay me and that’d be great, it’s not going to solve your problem, you actually need to have some sort of integrated curriculum that is repeated. And then what has to happen within the organization to reward and model and encourage empathy. It can’t just be a two-hour workshop, and everybody’s quote, unquote, cured, right. So, I love that you talk about it in terms of, and I think that makes sense for a lot of people when I when I bring up the gym analogy or your analogy about like, being a good public speaker, you don’t just like, go in cold. And all of a sudden, you’re you’re, you know, Barack Obama up on stage. So, it’s we need to get through this idea that even this quote, unquote, soft skills, which I still hate talking about them as soft skills, because I think they’re so important and so relevant to the bottom line. But those take practice, that takes time. And you have to build that up. And I love the idea of calling it a skill, not a trait. So, thank you for that. You have talked about empathy, exercise types. So, with an empathy report card, you see what type of empathy types your business or team does well, and what needs further exploration in order to better improve the cumulative customer experience. Tell us what you mean by that.
Emily Vernon 31:47
When right now, when we look at empathy, it’s it can come off as doing one thing, you’re trying to understand someone’s feelings. But when we look at different ways of applying, say design thinking, we actually do different types of empathy throughout the process. And it can really help different teams and organizations to understand what those are. So, for example, there’s five of them, I would say you have the first one being immerse, and this is when you go into an audience’s environment, and you try to experience it to understand it. The second one is connect with, which is when we talk to our audiences and users, whether it’s like one to one or intergroup. The third one is research. And this is really desk research. To give us more context, we’re reading articles, we’re looking at influencers, we’re looking at thought leaders, the next the fourth one is imagine and this is what we try to actually project ourselves into how the audience or user might react to something. And then the fifth one is assess. And this is when we try to look at did we apply our knowledge correctly. And that was so interesting, because we want to understand the feelings. And generally, when you’re doing customer experience, or even the user experience, you have to make decisions on the go. But then at some point, you need to test them. And that’s really where assess comes in. And I’ve seen depending on the team, organization, or even industry, some people are better or more apt at doing one versus the other. But if we can start to break it down in terms of what what we already do, we can start to see how to counterbalance that type of empathy exercise with a different one to make sure that we don’t have blind spots, as well as to give a little bit more dimension to the information that we already have.
Maria Ross 33:45
So, I’m curious, and I’m gonna put you on the spot here with a curveball question. But can you talk about a time you’ve applied that to a client and what were some of the insights gleaned?
Emily Vernon 33:56
Out what I can? What I can show is that for different organizations that they’ve been good at certain exercises. So, for example, when I was working at Converse and footwear design, and being exposed to say, like Nike, as well as JD sports, we were really good at immerse people were very just apt at understanding the culture and knowing everything in the news and knowing how to respond to that. I saw it Wreckit on the flip side, that as something as a company that’s an FMCG, that we’re really good at still our assess, really starting to look at how do we apply our knowledge correctly? Testing designs and services. So, what I saw within those two organizations, one that’s really good at immerse and the other that’s really good SS is that they would need to know consider other empathy exercises to make sure that they were reacting correctly. So, for example, with something like footwear design and culture, it’s really good to develop that intuition. But you still want to make sure that you have something else. So, you’re, you’re not just filtering something through your own lens. And I’ve seen a lot of organizations and industries improve. And though that they generally need to balance that out, in terms of making like larger group decisions.
Maria Ross 35:32
I love that, that there’s this idea of different brands being good at some of the empathy exercises, but maybe a little weaker and need improvement in the others, because I think we tend to, and this is actually opening my eyes as well, we tend to think of, there’s just one type of empathy exercise when one type of way to gather that information and get to know your customer. And I love this idea of like, getting a fuller picture. By doing all these things, not you know, we don’t have to throw out third party research or like what you call desk research. That’s important, too, and qualitative, and one on one and immersive. And so, I love this idea of making a leader think about a more holistic way of evaluating who their customers are and what they want, what they aspire to be, what their goals and fears are. So, they really can’t understand them. I guess what my question and maybe some of the listeners question follow up on that is, how do you get a company to connect the dots between all of the information they’re getting about their customer, all of the all of the empathy that they are feeling, and seeing for their customer, and get that to translate into implementation?
Emily Vernon 36:57
The biggest part really is starting to structure your information, and categorize it. I know that sounds really cold and boring. But when you start to see what you’re doing well, and what you’re not doing well, or what information you have, that’s when you can act on it. Without that it just seems like a big jumble of information. And that kind of go back to your previous question in terms of how to identify and then improve or use them for empathy types. When I was at Converse, we did a lot of within our we had a local regional team, we did a lot of experiments in terms of creating different tools and aspects to better understand the customer, we would make, say, Instagram feeds to try to show to other people. As we saw that we were really good at immerse, we actually went and connected a lot with our audience. I mean, everywhere, whether we are in like London, or in Manchester, we tried to talk and make sure that we really understood, and we weren’t just doing it through our lens. So, I can say that, if you find yourself going one direction, it’s good to have a team that’s open to doing a little bit of experiments and trying to make new tools, and ones that you feel that might resonate with your team. And that was that was such a big thing for us. And having those in place. If we created say, we had websites and blogs. And also reports, by having a couple different ways of sharing sharing information, we started telling a bigger story. And we can engage different people. So that that’s always the biggest thing for me it was with empathy, try different things, try it, make something up, you know, look at how other people have done it, and see what sticks. There’s no right or wrong way. The biggest and most important thing is repetition, and finding something that works for for your company and your team, because you’ll be probably quite surprised of the creative things that you can come up with. And creativity is a big one in terms of empathy.
Maria Ross 39:04
Absolutely. And so, what I hear you saying there something you said at the top of that, which was this idea of categorization and prioritization of the information that you hear? And in my mind, I’m like, of course, you know, it’s like it’s creating, it’s getting those insights and categorizing like, is this? Is this a product issue? Is this a customer rep issue? Is this a, you know, a buying process issue, and then figuring out how you can improve it in those different areas? And like, what can be solved with technology? Versus what needs to be solved with policy versus what needs to be solved with product design?
Emily Vernon 39:42
Yeah, it reminds me of a conversation we’re having as a team, because we’re looking at this huge topic of, of sustainability. And indeed, We have to start to break these big ideas down to understand where can we act and where we can have an impact And also when you have those categories, you can start to see how you’re improving or not, which is also really motivating. We want to be able to improve an experience. And if we can see, it was x before now, it’s why it only gives us more, more hope to try more things within the organization.
Maria Ross 40:19
So, I’m going to ask you a pretty selfish question. Because I think it’s also the most the million-dollar question is, how do you? How do you get leadership to be patient enough with that process of discovery? Because, you know, I know, especially with my clients, you know, part of part of the value prop, I offer them as a very efficient brand story and brand messaging process. And I often lament the fact that we can’t spend longer on empathy for customers customer insights, I kind of sort of have to hope and pray that they will deal with that on their own right. But how do you? How do you convince leadership of the ROI of the patience of this kind of a process? And maybe you don’t have a magic bullet for us, but so let’s say there’s someone listening, who is a director of customer experience in their organization, and knows they need to be doing more of this testing and experimentation. And, you know, looking at the different empathy exercises, but they’ve got, you know, leadership team that’s like, how is this going to impact us next quarter, right? Is there any are there any words of wisdom you can share?
Emily Vernon 41:29
There are a couple of approaches, and I’ll go through one that I’ve had to learn, which is try to attach it to an existing project. And that can really help to show its value. So even right now, within b2b, we’re working on certain projects, where I was saying, hey, why don’t we, why don’t we start to understand our customer a little bit better, because it could help us to x in this project. And I’ve been waiting for a project to, to add this on to it. So, my advice is, know what you want, and start to look and scope out what projects you can attach that to so it can grow. And also, some of the people that would be allies in the organization that can help see that value. And the other part about that is knowing that it’s going to take some time and repetition, that you’ll talk about it, and someone might go back for revert, that’s okay. It really is something consistent. But the biggest thing for me is is find find that project. And once people see the value of that it can then grow and then be added to other projects as well.
Maria Ross 42:42
Yeah, absolutely. Once once that project knocks it out of the park, and you can say, well, here’s why it did was because we took a step back, we did all this work. And that’s why this project succeeded. That speaks volumes, it’s like you said it’s getting that first one. And I love that idea of not trying to boil the ocean. I think that’s where so many folks that are in the design or customer experience, space, feel feel disheartened, because they want to change everything all at once. And it’s just it’s finding those smaller initiatives, I always talk about, you know, transforming your company in an empathetic organization, you can start small, you can start with these little bright lights that that then become a model. And those are successfully start to get people’s attention. And then they think well, how else can we apply this? Where else can we apply this in our organization? So, such great advice. Thank you, Emily. This has been such a great conversation. I appreciate your time and your insights. We’ll have all of your information in the show notes. But really quickly for people on the go. Can you tell them the best place to find out more about you and your work or where to connect with you?
Emily Vernon 43:46
Yeah, of course, if you want to learn a little bit more about my work and what I do, you can find me at Emilyvernon.com.
Maria Ross 43:55
Wonderful, nice and easy. Thanks again for your time today.
Emily Vernon 44:01
Thank you, Maria.
Maria Ross 44:03
And thank you everyone for listening to another wonderful episode of the empathy edge podcast. As always, if you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend or a colleague. And don’t forget to rate and review we love that. Follow us, subscribe, do all the things and until next time, please always remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
Leadership has changed in the last few years, and it can be disorienting for leaders who’ve subscribed to and succeeded with the old narratives about good leadership. Companies and their leaders need to reframe their cultures to meet the new world of work in the 21st century. It’s more than just being nice or being a “cool” boss or giving everyone free lunch. It requires deep and honest self-assessment and a growth mindset to shore up those necessary skills. My guest today, Lisen Stromberg, tells us what skills are required for modern leaders to be successful and how cultures can transform for maximum success.
We discuss where existing leadership and culture paradigms came from and how they have changed, what skills modern leaders require for success, outlined in Prismwork’s HEARTI model, and Lisen also shares her research project on men and male leaders in the workplace that they are doing in partnership with the W. K. Kellogg Foundation. Men and male-identifying leaders, you’re invited to take the survey linked in the show notes to share your experience.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
The army originally established the tenants of leadership back in the 1940s. That is not what is still needed in the modern business world. Influence has changed, leadership has changed, and it will continue to evolve as well.
A failure of leadership that we see all the time is when a leader comes in, they do a great job creating a culture, leave, and then that just all falls away.
Many leaders may not have the language, but are already doing the right things to promote equity and allyship in their company, even if they don’t know that they are doing so.
Culture is a competitive advantage that is hard to replicate.
“Culture is the competitive advantage. If you don’t know how your culture is operating, and don’t have a North Star of where you want to go, you’re not going to win. You’re going to lose in the war for talent, profits, investors…in the war for all.” — Lisen Stromberg
About Lisen Stromberg, CEO and Co-founder, Prismwork
Lisen Stromberg is CEO and Co-Founder of PrismWork, a culture transformation and leadership development consultancy. She is a highly sought-after speaker and thought leader on the future of work. Her book, Work Pause Thrive: How to Pause for Parenthood Without Killing Your Career, covers how highly achieving women have navigated the work/life integration issue by crafting nonlinear careers.
Men and male-identifying knowledge workers, any level: Please take Prismwork’s and W. K. Kellogg Foundation’s research survey on men in the workplace. Your input is invaluable to the research: www.menatworkresearch.com
Primswork’s HEARTI Quotient inclusive leadership assessment for the 21st Century: HEARTI stands for Humility, EMPATHY, Accountability, Resiliency, Transparency, and Inclusivity. It is built on assessments with hundreds of leaders across numerous industries as well as extensive research on modern leadership competencies.
Oh boy, leadership has changed in the last few years. And it can be disorienting for leaders who’ve subscribed to and succeeded with the old narratives about great leadership. You know, the ones command and control show no emotion, all of that. companies and their leaders need to reframe their cultures to meet the new world of work in the 21st century. It’s more than just being nice, or being a cool boss, or giving everyone free lunch. It requires deep and honest self-assessment and a growth mindset to shore up those necessary skills. My guest today, a fabulous colleague and mentor, Lisen Stromberg tells us what skills are required for modern leaders to be successful, and how cultures can transform for maximum success. Lisen is CEO and co-founder of prism work, a culture transformation and leadership development consultancy. She’s a highly sought after speaker and thought leader on the future of work. Her book work pause thrived. How to pause for parenthood without killing your career is more relevant than ever, and covers how highly achieving women have navigated the work life integration issue by crafting nonlinear careers. We discuss where existing Leadership and Culture paradigms even came from, and how they’ve changed. What skills modern leaders require for success outlined in prism works and hardy model, please take the assessment to see where you land. The link is in the show notes. And Lisen also shares her research project on men and male leaders in the workplace that they’re doing in partnership with the WK Kellogg Foundation. Again, if you are a man or a male identifying leader, you’re invited to take that survey, and it’s linked in the show notes so that you can share your experience. This was such a rich discussion, and we covered so much, I really hope you enjoy it.
Maria Ross 03:16
Welcome, Lisen to the empathy edge. I have been looking forward to getting you on this show for a while now to talk about culture and leadership in the 21st century.
Lisen Stromberg 03:26
Maria, you know, I always love being in conversation with you. So, this is wonderful.
Maria Ross 03:30
We should just record our talks when we all have them. Right? Absolutely. And you you are such a huge proponent of the empathy edge. And it’s very seedling stages. And I remember sitting in your home in San Francisco talking about, hey, I have this idea for this book, but I’m not really sure where it’s gonna go. So, I look where we are now. I know Look where we are now. Now we have a podcast. So, so we are here to talk about 21st century modern culture, modern leadership. So much of the work that you do with prism work is helping companies build a more inclusive culture, transform their cultures, because it’s the right thing to do, but also so they can thrive in the market. Right. And that’s the thing I love about the work you do. And that I do is that we’re proving that all these these things about how you treat people, and inclusivity and empathy are actually good for the bottom line.
Lisen Stromberg 04:24
What a concept! what a concept, right? It can spend all this time worrying about your capital costs, it’s time to look at your operating costs and your people or your operating costs. So, let’s think about that.
Maria Ross 04:35
Exactly, so talk to us a little bit about how leadership has changed in the last few years. And what are those core competencies that are required for modern leadership?
04:46
Well, I mean, I think all of us have been so destabilize these last four years, right five years, you know, the the social unrest, the political unrest, obviously COVID has changed everything. We used to believe and we worked Reed, many of the leaders in leadership today were trained, there was a certain way to lead, right? It literally came out of World War Two, the return of all of these great soldiers, the army established modern leadership competencies literally in 1940 1955, I think is what it was. And what they established was, you know, that follow the leader is hierarchical, you know, in the worst-case scenario, my way or the highway. It wasn’t distributed, etc. And what I love is for starting, you know, and that really was how so many leaders came up came into their leadership roles, they were literally modeled and mentored after that. So, all of a sudden, COVID hits and the way they establish power, the way they establish authority, they we established an influence doesn’t work anymore. Couple that with a social media, you know, changing dynamic, and it’s fundamentally shifted. So, the question is, how, what we’re seeing and what the research that prism work has done. And what I have done in my class at Stanford that I co teach with Gina Nichols, is really looked at what are those core competencies, and thank you for asking for modern leadership. And after doing extensive 1000s, of cert, you know, a survey of 1000s of leaders and you know, scores of interviews, etc, we really came down to six core competencies, and they are humility. In other words, we think of this as servant leadership, we think of this as the ability to sort of say, I don’t know, have all the answers, but I really want to understand so coming with that kind of vulnerable, you know, humble mindset, rather than you talk to me, because I’m the leader, it’s, I want to find out you so I can lead better advisors. Who are who I’m leading right now. So, humility, empathy, I don’t even know Yay, we’re there. You know that answer, right? That’s fundamental, right? You cannot, you cannot leave in the modern workforce without understanding empathy. And you know, at length, we can talk about the three kinds of empathy and all those other things that you’ve taught me. Accountability. Now, interestingly, we’ve leaders, anybody who’s in the leadership role has to be be accountable it but it’s how you’re accountable, and how you have others be accountable. And it’s not just accountable for delivering results. It’s accountable for creating a culture, it’s accountable for how you show up and they show up collaboratively. So accountability is much broader than just that vertical, did you deliver the profits on time, etc. And that’s a real adjustment for many. Then we go on to resiliency. And of course, in the midst of COVID, and all of this, we’ve been forced to be resilient, and really test ourselves and figure out, can we be agile, we, you know, there’s this wonderful book, Grit by Angela Duckworth. And it’s awesome. The problem with grit is grit is tenacious and you often don’t give up when you should, the great thing about resiliency is you have to fail to be resilient because you learn from it, and you evolve and iterate and grow. So, you don’t just want to have grit only all the grits great. You also want to be resilient, you want to fail, learn from it, and so on. Transparency, that’s a big one specially right now, when so many people are afraid about canceled culture and companies are being asked What’s your data, demographic data? You know, all of these things? Data Governance, management, how are you transparent? So, we look at transparency as an individual, how do you show up again? Do you show up in a humble way with empathy, etc? And also, what are you willing to take a stand on? Right? I don’t know, you know, what kind of leader you are until I know what you’re willing to take a stand on. And right now, given the political climate and everything else, Roe v. Wade, you know, all the conversations are, what are you willing to take a stand on? And how are you going to shop around that that’s part of what transparency is. And the last one, and we really think of this as the heart of the model that we’ve established har T, is inclusivity, you cannot be a modern leader, if you aren’t thinking about how do you include people? How do you make them feel psychologically safe? So, they can actually challenge you as a leader? How can you actually include their voices? And so, inclusivity for us is yes, of course, demographic, gender, you know, all of the things that you would imagine, but it goes beyond that to how are you including everyone’s voice? How are you showing up as a leader? So, those are kind of what we call again, I’ll say hardy, the six core competencies of modern leadership.
Maria Ross 09:24
Yes, I love it. I mean, it’s a great acronym, H E A R T I. And you can learn more about that at prison work. We’ll have all the links in the show notes, of course. But I want to just dig into two things you said one was, you need to be accountable for more than results as a leader and I think that’s a big shift for the the classic leadership model, which was I’m only going to be judged as a leader based on the results I produce. And it doesn’t matter if I’ve burned my people to the ground in order to deliver those results. And that’s not the game anymore. No. And so I have always talks about the fact that you know, the reason you’re a leader and they’re paying you the big bucks is because you have to worry about people. Like that’s your job now.
Lisen Stromberg 10:07
Yeah, yes. I was listening to McKinsey, talent talking. It’s called Talent talk. They had it. And they, one of the guest speakers said a really great thing, which is, how do you get people into the office, and the way you get them into the office is be a really great leader. Right? And in other words, not that I’m advocating to, you know, to everyone in the office, but the what’s cool, the new kind of really great, cool thing to have. It’s not ping pong tables, it’s not lunch. It’s be the kind of leader that people want to show up for either in person or virtual, or whatever it is. That’s the new currency.
Maria Ross 10:43
Right.
Lisen Stromberg 10:44
So, to your point, you’re absolutely if you don’t actually be accountable in a way that goes beyond profits, right? So, it’s people purpose profits, those three P’s, if you’re not focused on all three of those three P’s in this new world of work, you’re going to fail as a leader, and we see it happening all the time.
Maria Ross 11:00
And we should, you know, point out that to exactly what you just said, it’s something a colleague of ours, mutual colleague of ours, Rebecca Freese talks about engineering, right? Oh, punching bar tables and freak heads on Friday, do not a culture make no we’re in and we’re not asking leaders to just roll over and give their teams whatever they want, however, crazy it sounds. So, I think, you know, people don’t understand it’s a spectrum. And it’s about creating an environment. It’s just like, I mean, you don’t want it to be this paternalistic, but sort of like, parents create a good environment. That is the it has boundaries, it has expectations, but it also has fun, it has caring, it has empathy. That is, you know, most you’ve seen the research to on Gen Z and millennials where they want a second family.
Lisen Stromberg 11:48
Yes.
Maria Ross 11:49
And they’re at work and they’re willing to spend the time at work and to deliver, if they feel like it’s a second family. Yes, you don’t have to go overboard and say yes to everything to be a quote unquote, good leader or a fun leader. But it’s, it’s about providing that balance and providing that structure and that environment where people can perform at their best. But there are expectations, there are boundaries, and there are responsibilities.
Lisen Stromberg 12:16
So it’s interesting, parenting, you know, may or may not be the appropriate analogy, but I do. Meaning that, you know, many people aren’t parents and their parents to dogs and cats and that, but I do think there was something in parenting that does play relevance to me. We talked about helicopter parenting, right, where you’re constantly right, as opposed to Bumper Car parenting, that idea that I’m going to give you the boundaries you can bump against, but you’ve got boundaries, but you get to test them, you get to go and challenge yourself, push yourself, you know, and I’m gonna give you those boundaries. So, you can succeed as a parent. That’s authoritative parenting, not authoritarian parenting, helicopter parenting is authoritarian parenting. So much like those you asked the original question, which was what has changed, I think that’s a fundamental change in leadership. We’re not about authoritarian Leadership Without authoritative leadership. You follow me, you, you, you listen to me. And I, as a leader, give you the boundaries, so that you can be the next leader, my goal is to help evolve you to the next leader, because there’s going to be a day when I’m gone. And I want you to succeed, I want to take what I do, and infuse it so that it can continue, right. A failure of leadership that we see all the time is a leader comes in he or she does a great job creates a culture, they leave because many leaders do leave and then that completely, you know, just all falls away. That is a failure of leadership. In my opinion, if you’re if your leadership doesn’t live beyond you, you’ve done anything wrong.
Maria Ross 13:51
And that’s a shift for a lot of, you know, maybe less than stellar leaders that I’m thinking of from my past. That’s a shift because that is it’s not just about leaving a legacy or secession planning or succession planning or anything like that. It’s about that as part of your role as a leader is to empower your team so that you are you are grooming them, you are you are skilling them up to be the future leaders and that’s not a threat to your leadership. In the moment you are the leader right? That’s actually what you leave behind and and the number of people that get promoted and go to leadership positions that are on your team is the mark of a good leader.
Lisen Stromberg 14:31
I’m sure there is a study out there I haven’t seen it if any of your listeners have seen it, haven’t sent it to us looking at kind of the impact of a leader and where how they trained or supported or you know, sponsored and advocated somebody and they then went somewhere else. They then infuse that in their culture and so on. There must be research out there. I’m sure if someone has done, I just haven’t seen it, but I’ve heard about it anecdotally. He was someone who has been led in the way that we’re discussing has built those skills has gone somewhere else has modeled that. And then that person that they met, LED has gone somewhere else and infused it, it’s a movement, right? You want to have that kind of mindset. And that approach of my legacy is vertical. My legacy is a web. And I want to kind of support people, you know, to go out and change the world and create workplaces that are better for all of us.
Maria Ross 15:26
Right? Right. And that is the mark of good leadership. So, I do want to mention quickly that you have with this Hardy quotient, this Hardy hodell, you have a leadership and inclusive leadership assessment called the Hardy quotient, and you think of it as a StrengthsFinder for the 21st century. So, we’re gonna put a link so folks can just take that right.
Lisen Stromberg 15:49
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, can go to Hardy quotient.com. And yes, please, thank you put the link in there. We now have oh, you know, well over 1000 leaders, you know, heading into 2000 leaders who’ve taken it, it just came out not that long ago. And what’s fascinating is this, this awareness that that the Hardy quotient gives leaders to understand how they’re showing up, they think they’re showing up, right, and then they can go back, this goes back to the humility. Hey, I did the Hardy quotient. It says that I you know, have an area of strength in inclusivity, which is wonderful. But I need to work on my accountability. Hey, team, why don’t you take this let’s talk about where we’re strong as a team and where we’re not what’s this look like? We have one wonderful early beta tester. She was the head of DNI at a global insurance company. And she’s now got all of her leaders, you know, 150 leaders now taking it and they’re actually having these conversations about how do I show up as a hardware leader? What does this look like? Where are we as a team strong? Where do we need to grow? What I think is fascinating with the data that we’re now seeing is there’s some we’re just beginning to see some cross tabulations, and we’re starting to run the analysis. And I think this will be really fascinating for you, leaders who show up really high in empathy, sometimes struggle with accountability. And I know you
Maria Ross 17:08
And I have heard that. And I actually just attended a webinar a while ago, that was given by business solver. And business solver is a company that puts out a yearly state of empathy in the workplace. And I use their research extensively in my book, and they were talking about the fact that, you know, you empathy has to be hand in hand with accountability. That’s how you don’t let people just everything run amok, right? So, then empathy lives hand in hand with accountability in the workplace,
Lisen Stromberg 17:43
Right. But you also taught me about compassion, empathy, right? Not over emotional empathy, not cognitive empathy, but the whole concept of compassion, empathy that says, it’s really service leadership again, right? That how can I be of service to you? How can I come with that full hearty mindset, and actually know that you need boundaries to you for you to be successful? You need accountability, I have to help you thrive.
Maria Ross 18:07
It’s yeah, compassionate empathy. It’s compassion is really the empathy and action. And so, what are those boundaries? What are those expectations? What are those policies? What are those, you know, all the things we’re going to do in order to exhibit m&a in the workplace. So, I love that. So, I want to pivot because, you know, we’ve danced around this a little bit in terms of inclusivity, and also with leaders having to sort of change their mindset and change their their MO, maybe even to the point where this is where I have empathy. They have to change what got them to where they are, that’s, we need to have empathy for that. Because their whole careers, they were told the rules were one thing. And now they’re being expected to just turn on a dime, right. And so that’s why organizations like yours, that are helping leaders and helping cultures make that shift are so important. You don’t have to do this alone. And so, you’re doing some research around men and male leaders in the workplace. Because, you know, let’s face it, most of our leaders in the workplace have historically been men. And we want them to be allies. We want them to open up the leadership opportunities to not just women but people of color to transgender individuals to individuals that have all kinds of viewpoints that they bring to the equation and to the challenges in the workplace, which actually, you’ve probably seen the research to it talks about the fact that the more diverse your leadership team, the better decisions you make.
Lisen Stromberg 19:38
Right and that’s that research is all proven that now we’re well beyond the conversation. Well, this data extensive.
Maria Ross 19:44
Yes. I love it. So talk to us about the research you’re doing on men and male leaders in the workplace and what your what are male leaders saying maybe some of the ones that are struggling with this shift? What am What do you hear them saying what what are they What are they going through? Where do they need to shore up their skill set?
Lisen Stromberg 20:04
Well, I want to share a little bit background. Yeah, it’s a great question. And I want to share some background. So, the Kellogg Foundation approached us they have a racial equity program that they have been doing for a number of years with corporations, you know, across the country, actually, I think it’s even global. And one of the challenges they were experiencing is many of the leaders, not at the very top. In fact, 62% of CEOs report being true believers in inclusion. So that’s not the problem. It’s that next layer down the VP, the director, even the manager, who are struggling with what does this look like? What does this mean for me? How do I do this, because to your point, many of the individuals who have gotten to that point, got to that point based on an old narrative about what leadership look like they earned their power in a different way. So, I too, have deep compassion and empathy for so many who are trying to lead this new way. And again, for men in particular, because often we blame and shame men, you’re not showing up the way we need excetera, which then goes into that kind of scarcity mindset of Oh, my gosh, there’s only so much pie to go around. And of course, you and I both know, world Carol Dweck research out of Stanford growth mindset. It’s not a pie people pie just gets bigger. And it’s hard to truly understand what that looks like. So Kellogg approached us and said, Hey, we’re really interested in this. Can you help do this, this research around kind of men at work is sort of what we were talking about. And again, this is the knowledge not the bands. Yeah, no, not the bands. Don’t make that go into my head. But they, but again, this is the knowledge worker space, this is, you know, and they were looking at really kind of that, that segment of, I don’t want to call them middle middle managers. That’s not what I want to call them, because I do think they’re leaders. But but but they’re not the CEOs, if you will,
Maria Ross 21:57
I like to call it that level that stuck between leadership and doing, you know, it’s like they they’re, they’re also responsible for implementing, as well as leading, they’re not so far high up that they’re just, you know, making declarations and IIDX. And sort of solely focusing, but they’re the ones that have to bring initiatives to life.
Lisen Stromberg 22:16
So not only are they leading, they’re also doing imagine how hard that is, right? Yeah. So we’ve just started this research. And we’re excited. We’ve done a series of qualitative roundtables and interviews, and then we’ll be launching our survey very shortly. And what we’re finding already is something that I didn’t expect, which is we went into it talking about and thinking about inclusion, and they came back to us saying it’s all about leadership. In other words, for them, the number one challenge, as you’re saying was, I don’t know how to lead now. I don’t know, what is the you know, what’s the tip sheet for how to lead today? We thought they were concerned about how to be allies, that was way down on their, their, I need to know list. What was also really fascinating to me, and part of this is generational meaning, you know, how do I navigate the many generations that work the different priorities, etc. So that’s part of it. But truly, I don’t know what leadership looks like today. I just feel like I’m in quicksand. The other thing that I thought was really fascinating is there was clarity on what ally ship looks like. And in some didn’t even understand that, you know, what didn’t even have a name for it. But interestingly, many of them were actually doing things that you and I might say, oh, that’s what an ally does. This is a how ally ship. So there’s also confusion about the stuff they’re already doing. They’re already showing up with their power intentionally. They just don’t call an ally ship. They call it management. There’s a there’s right, because right, or mentor ship and some mentorship. Yeah, but exactly. And so, for them there was this is the nomenclature was confused, is is confusing. I think, also what I find fascinating is this disconnect between, you know, this belief, that’s what’s in it for me, you know, if I have to advance your book, while What about my book, or what about me, right? There’s this kind of zero sum thinking going on. But in fact, what we’re trying to help so many of the men see through this research, and what’s really showing up is those individuals, men who actually do know how to lead in this new world of work, succeed, they rise up, they deliver their numbers, they actually feel more confident. I mean, this the benefits to self are huge. And so, I think the the narrative that Oh, I have to be ally, and I’m going to give up my power is completely flawed. The idea that being an inclusive leader means that, you know, again, I’m sharing my power, it’s a fundamental flaw in the way we think of it. It’s literally Oh, I benefit when this happens. I actually grow as a human, I become a better leader, and that means all the results that are counted ability thing, that’s all going to get better for me. So, we’re seeing all of this richness right now I can I can wait to get the final results.
Maria Ross 25:07
Right. And so, and male leaders can still take this survey.
Lisen Stromberg 25:11
Yes, we’re right in the middle of the research right now. And so, we can send you a link and please,
Maria Ross 25:17
We will have a link in the show notes. Do you have a Do you have a verbal link? You can let us know.
Lisen Stromberg 25:22
We don’t I think we’re gonna probably call it men at work. men@work.com survey? I don’t know.
Maria Ross 25:27
We don’t know yet. We will have it in the show notes. For sure. Thank you. So, so men, and what type of men can take this survey any any L in the workplace,
Lisen Stromberg 25:37
Any male in the workplace can take this survey, again, it is knowledge workers. So, you know, first line, you know, first line workers and all of that that’s not really where the focus of this research is not to say that an important research needs to get done. But any any buddy in the knowledge worker space,
Maria Ross 25:53
So, they don’t have to be a VP or director.
Lisen Stromberg 25:55
Oh, no. On the contrary, we’re already seeing interesting dynamics between, you know, the Gen Z’s versus the boomer with a diet that’s so rich in itself, right? Yeah, yeah. The thing that I also finding fascinating is, you know, in the midst of COVID, all this research was, was being shared about women leaving the workforce or down downshifting. But in fact, we’re finding there’s similar data around men. So men who were forced to be cared, not forced, but have the opportunity to be caregivers, and you know, either their children, their families, and suddenly didn’t have a network in place to do it. We’re seeing huge shifts around that I was literally on the phone earlier today with Josh lens, who wrote all in about, you know, fathers in the workforce and what that means. And he said, the data that he’s seeing is literally that men suffered the same level of anxiety, the same challenges to their careers, etc. And that couples were trying to figure out who was going to pause their career. And in fact, in many cases, the women did not because they felt that the women were better caregivers, but because the women weren’t making as much money as the men, right, so it’s all full circle. Right? Right. If women had fair pay and pay equity, men might have more freedom, if you will, to actually navigate their their their journey in the workplace. So, there’s this stuff goes on forever. Talk for hours.
Maria Ross 27:17
Such great stuff. I want to ask you kind of a rogue question here. But you know, in your work with culture transformation at prism work and the companies you work with, what is the problem? They’re articulating? Are they are they actually coming to you and saying, we want to transform our culture or transform the way they lead? Or how are they articulating the challenge that they have?
Lisen Stromberg 27:39
It’s a really interesting, it’s a really great question. Our clients have come from us, and a whole host of ways I want to understand work from anywhere, can you help us look at our culture to help us figure out how to do this? Well, I want to increase more gender diversity in our company. And we know that there’s a problem, can you help do a culture assessment to understand what the issues are and help us grow from there, we want to go public, we have a number of, you know, high tech firms or tech firms in Silicon Valley that want to go public. And they know that they know to do that, they actually have to have a certain level of you know, women on boards, or diversity on boards, etc. All of that’s being challenged in the courts these days. But they actually want to have that kind of best-in-class culture. Help set me up for success. So we can you know, venture capitalists are reaching out saying, Hey, we’re about to fund this company, can you do an assessment? So, because of that, they we know where their issues are, like, sort of our assessment looks not just a DNI, we’re actually looking at a full plethora of what is the 360 experience of the company, we actually call it gleam, its governance, that’s probably the policies leadership, how to leaders show up the employee experience, what’s the lived experience for the employees, the environment? What are the tools and training? And what are the what are the systems in place, right, you know, people analytics, are they work from anywhere? Or are they not? What is that? What is the environment? And then market with their employer brand? What’s their employer internally brand internally? What’s it externally? What are their competitors doing? So that is a pretty robust assessment, but it allows us to look at where they are on this kind of continuum, a 21st century readiness. What’s interesting is we’re starting to see private equity firms are reaching out to say, hey, we’re thinking about purchasing this company, but we’re not we want to know what the problems are, before we get in there were the fingers and the filters and how culture transformation or just culture is understood is fascinating.
Maria Ross 29:38
Well, I’m just heartened to hear that this is becoming a part of due diligence, for lack of a better term and not just looking at product market fit. They’re not just looking at, you know, year over year revenue. They’re not looking at total addressable market. They’re also looking at culture as a competitive advantage and as our tagline and as it comes had an advantage that you it’s very hard to replicate. Right?
Lisen Stromberg 30:03
Well, that’s exactly right. And also, if they’re trying to merge cultures, they need to understand what’s the dynamic here, and how effective or ineffective will this be, because profitability at the end of the day will be impacted if you can’t merge effectively. So, we’re starting to see a really interesting movement around that. So, what I love, and I do believe this really is a shift in these last five years is this fundamental understanding that you culture to your point, as we say, that’s our tagline. Culture is the competitive advantage. And if you don’t know how your culture is operating, and don’t have kind of a Northstar, of where you want to go, you’re not going to win, you’re going to lose in the war for talent in the war for profits in the war for investors in the war for all right.
Maria Ross 30:44
Well, at the end of the day, I mean, your company is made up of a group of individuals that are getting the work done quickly. And so, it’s, it’s surprising that it took us so long to get here to understand that, but we’re here and it’s good. And I’m gonna put a link in the show notes as well, to a few other episodes I did with culture experts, Rebecca Greece and her good culture, and also Josh Levine of great Monday. So, I will I will put those links in the show notes as well, because we, we talked about this issue of culture sort of being being the last not the last bastion of competitive differentiation, but one of the hardest ones to, to copy and replicate. So, if you’re really trying to stand out from your competitors, this is a great way to do it. So absolutely. So, as we as we leave off, I love if you could just you know leaders listening who are like yes to all of this. And I’m a deer in headlights, I don’t know where to start. Where do you suggest leaders start shoring up their skill sets? Or even like I said, assessing where they are on the spectrum? Where can they go? What can they do, obviously, maybe the hearty quotient right place to start?
Lisen Stromberg 31:54
Right, I would I would highly recommend they go and sort of understand go and get the hearty quotient, that would be a great place to start. I teach this class at Stanford, our next class will be in January, you can go to Stanford, and so they find that class, it’s part of the next gen.
Maria Ross 32:10
And it’s delivered on its delivered virtual exam. Anyone can take it. Wonderful.
Lisen Stromberg 32:14
Yeah, yes.
Maria Ross 32:15
And I’ve had the opportunity to guest lecturer at that class. And it’s a great.
Lisen Stromberg 32:18
Again, and again, and again.
Maria Ross 32:19
I know, I love it. I love it. Such good stuff.
Lisen Stromberg 32:23
Feel free to reach out to us at prison work, we get prison work, we’d love to have to support you. There. There’s so the good news is right now the resources are better than ever. One specific resource that we in our class send people to is Google has done some work around psychological safety. And they’ve open sourced what the you know, what the issues are, and how to provide that. That could be an immediate today, what do I do today, I go and find out what psychological safety is and how I can set my employees up for that. Because so much of what we’re finding is that employees don’t feel that they can really show up with humility, because they’re afraid to say, I don’t have the answer. It’s we’re taught in our culture, that it’s not okay to not have all the answers, right.
Maria Ross 33:13
It’s that outdated narrative, like you said earlier, it’s that, and that’s the thing that I you know, if you’re a leader, you’re saying, Well, I was told my whole career, never to admit, I didn’t know never to admit I was wrong. Like, that’s gonna be really hard for me to make that shift after 30 years.
Lisen Stromberg 33:30
That’s right. Exactly right. Exactly. And I back to that compassion and the empathy for that situation. But the truth of the matter is, if you leader wants to succeed, you have to make this shift, it’s not an option.
Maria Ross 33:42
So, and the good news is, you know, the good side of that is you can let your guard down a little bit. You don’t have to, you don’t have to have the pressure on yourself. And it’ll bring you closer to your team used to, you know, you still want to be a decisive leader, you still want to be a confident leader, but you can have confidence and still admit you and you can confidently admit, you don’t have all the answers. Let’s work on this as a team. So I love it.
Lisen Stromberg 34:09
And then the other side of that is to listen. Yeah, right. That’s where the empathy comes in. Listen to what they’re trying to tell you and and give them the safety to be able to tell you what you need to hear.
Maria Ross 34:19
Right. Right. I love it. Well, listen, this has been awesome. Thank you for this conversation. There’s going to be so many things in the show notes, listeners, I’m going to put links to everything we referenced and discussed some past interviews on the empathy edge that will be helpful. And of course, for the men in the in the I don’t even know what it’s called the listening audience,
Lisen Stromberg 34:40
the listening audience,
Maria Ross 34:41
I’m gonna put a link to the research that prison work is doing and they would love to hear from you and and hear your story and hear your voice. So please do fill that out. Lisen, where again, we’ll have all the links in the show notes, but where can folks find out more about you or connect with you? You and your work.
Lisen Stromberg 35:01
Sure, they can find me on LinkedIn, Lisen (L-I-S-E-N) Stromberg (S-T-R-O-M-B-E-R-G). They can find me on Twitter. I’m on a little bit on Instagram, but mostly on Twitter and LinkedIn. And of course, they can go to prison work and find me and find us there.
Maria Ross 35:17
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. It’s always a pleasure talking to you. I always I always learned something when I talk to you. So, it’s amazing. Thank you for coming on the show.
Lisen Stromberg 35:25
It’s a pleasure. Thank you, Maria. Good luck.
Maria Ross 35:27
And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. As always, please rate and review it if you get a chance and tell your friends tell your colleagues about the show. Until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
What is a badass leader? According to my guest today, they’re badasses who go 80MPH in a 45MPH zone but don’t always check to see if their team is strapped in or interested in going for the ride. These leaders are high value to a company but their “prickly” edges may start to diminish their value. But what if we could help those leaders embrace more empathy and channel that energy and drive into success and innovation? What is the opportunity cost of dismissing or sidelining such prickly leaders?
Executive coach and advisor Parissa Behnia coaches C Suite and Senior leaders who are high will – high skill and have a growth mindset. Today, we talk about the hierarchy of prickly leadership, why many 3D leaders actually do care about the negative impact they have but are not sure how to change the dynamic; why they protect themselves so much, and how they can use her EMPATHY framework to create stronger relationships, set aside ego, and have much more influence and success.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
You don’t have to like a leader personally to understand the radical impact that they’ve had on us and on society.
Once we start learning to have acceptance for our vulnerability, it becomes easier to have a conversation about leadership ultimately being about humanity, and not about the “doing” of whatever it is that they do.
A manager worries about doing things right, a leader worries about doing the right things.
In terms of empathy, when it comes to leadership, it’s really about content and context.
“The number one problem with badasses is that they’re called ” too much” whereas I think they’re exactly what we need.” — Parissa Behnia
About Parissa Behnia, Executive Coach and Advisor
Parissa Behnia coaches C Suite and Senior leaders who are high will – high skill and have a growth mindset. In other words, they’re badasses like you who go 80MPH in a 45MPH zone but don’t always check to see if their team is strapped in or interested in going for the ride. These leaders are high value to a company but their edges may start to diminish their value.
These days, leadership is full of complexities whether you’re navigating from an audacious goal or trying to avoid that iceberg up ahead. In either case, Parissa’s clients choose her because she’s either sat in those seats or next to those seats often enough to know how it can feel to be alone in a crowded leadership room. She’s unafraid to speak truth to power to help propel you forward.
With over 20 years of corporate, consulting, coaching, Parissa’s key strategic difference is Empathy as a strategic imperative. She’s so passionate about employing empathy in business that she’s developed the Sixense Empathy Model™.
Parissa has taught entrepreneurship seminars and is a frequent speaker on strategy, leadership and entrepreneurship. She is a Certified Professional Coach, holds a BA from Northwestern University and MBA from NYU’s Stern School of Business.
Inconceivable Influence Coaching Program: https://bit.ly/InconceivableInfluence. A group program for leaders and aspiring leaders who want to convert their raw power into influence.
What exactly is a badass leader? According to my guest today, there are badasses who go 80 miles an hour in a 45 zone. But don’t always check to see if their team is strapped in, or even interested in going for the ride. These leaders are high value to accompany but they’re prickly edges may start to diminish their value. But what if we could help those leaders embrace more empathy and channel that energy and drive into success and innovation? What’s the opportunity cost of dismissing or sidelining such prickly leaders? Are we missing out on the next Steve Jobs Thomas Edison or Kamala Harris, executive coach and advisor Teresa Bania. Coaches C suite and senior leaders who are high will high skill and have a growth mindset who are badass leaders. She especially loves helping what she calls three D leaders difficult dismissive and divisive channel their raw power into influence and impact. Teresa’s key strategic difference and strategic imperative is empathy. It means that leaders seek content and context to do a better job of serving their customers and engaging their teams. She has developed the Sixth Sense empathy model and wants all of us to put empathy at the forefront of how we engage. Today we talk about the hierarchy of prickly leadership. Why many 3d leaders actually do care about the negative impact they have, but are not sure how to change the dynamic, why they protect themselves so much, and how they can use her empathy framework to create stronger relationships set aside ego and have more influence and success. If you are not a badass leader, I bet you no one so you will love today’s conversation.
Maria Ross 03:31
Let’s get connected. If you’re loving this content, don’t forget to go to the empathy edge.com and sign up for the email list to get free resources and more empathy infused success tips and find out how you can book me as a speaker. I want to hear how empathy is helping you be more successful. So please sign up now at the empathy edge.com. Oh, and follow me on Instagram where I’m always posting all the things for you at Red slice Maria.
Maria Ross 04:06
Welcome Teresa to the empathy edge podcast. This has been a long time coming to have you on the show because I so enjoyed connecting with you and interviewing you for the book, the empathy edge and here you are now to talk to us about the important role of empathy and leadership.
Parissa Behnia 04:22
All right, here we are. I am so excited to be here. When you and I first spoke I love the concept of your book. And when I finally had your book in my hands I read it in one or two sittings at the most. And then the time that you came to Chicago and you spoke to that group at General Assembly it was just so magical with like,
Maria Ross 04:50
Oh my gosh
Parissa Behnia 04:51
your genius in person.
Maria Ross 04:52
Thank you.
Parissa Behnia 04:52
So this is privilege.
Maria Ross 04:55
And that was the before times right then […] and I had this huge just a book launch tour that I was gonna plan. And luckily, I made it to Chicago and I made it to Seattle and Vancouver before.
Parissa Behnia 05:06
Yeah, the halcyon days of pre COVID.
Maria Ross 05:09
I know. Right? Right, when were emerging were emerging. So, I’m excited to talk to you about prickly leadership, difficult leadership, because you have always said that you love getting your hands on as an executive coach and a leadership advisor on three D leaders. 3d seating, difficult, dismissive and divisive. Yes, talk to us. Let’s take a step back and talk about your hierarchy of prickly leadership. Because some of these are subsets and maybe some of our listeners, it’s okay, if you recognize yourself in some of these archetypes that we’re going to talk about, because priests is also going to talk about the way forward for for some of these.
Parissa Behnia 05:51
Absolutely. So, the types of people I love to work with are what I affectionately call modern badasses. These are leaders who go 80 miles an hour in a 45 mile an hour zone. But don’t always check to see if their teams or colleagues are strapped in for the ride, let alone interested in the destination. These are your change agents. These are your pattern interrupters. These are your mismatches. These are your people who say why not instead of why. And when someone says to them, that’s impossible. They’ll say hold my beer, I’ll show you what it actually is possible, right? These are it to put them in real life terms. These are your Kamala Harris’s of the world. These are your Steve Jobs of the world. These are your Susan B. Anthony’s of the world. These are your Ruth Bader Ginsburg of the world, you don’t have to like them personally to understand the radical impact that they’ve had on us and on society. As a general matter. Regardless of you being an iPhone fan, or an Android fan, you can thank someone like a Steve Jobs for completely interrupting what that experience is for all of us. Yeah, and those are the types of people I really love. And the reason why I love working with them, as much as I do is that many of them are sidelined, because they don’t know how to channel They’re awesome, in ways to make them seen, heard, understood, and respected. And when we sideline that genius, there’s an opportunity costs are what future Steve Jobs do we not know what future Edison do we not know what future any kind of inventor do we not know? Because their genius has been sidelined, as opposed to champion for what their genius actually is.
Maria Ross 08:02
And I like the distinction you’re making, because it’s not necessarily about helping them become liked. It’s helping them become seen and valued for their contribution. And I think, you know, I mean, I’ve got some leanings on this, but I think probably Elon Musk is a figure like that for a lot of people because he’s done amazing work with opening up the market for electric vehicles, and renewable energy. But there’s, you know, things about his demeanor and his style of leadership and that we can all take issue with right. And this is why we bought a Kia and not a Tesla recently as an Eevee.
Parissa Behnia 08:38
So, I love that it’s some of these are polarizing figures and
Maria Ross 08:42
Polarizing yes.
Parissa Behnia 08:43
Excellent. Excellent, excellent example. You don’t have to like him as a person but still recognize his impact? Yes. See it. That impact is what the positive benefit may be to us without having to be besties with it.
Maria Ross 08:59
Exactly. Exactly. And your your provocative question of, you know, what, what leaders are we missing out on when we sideline these folks? I unfortunately, believe and you could probably have research that backs us up that there’s probably a lot of women that gets sidelined because of their label of being difficult or hard to work with or too emotional or whatever the thing because they they have not maybe necessarily learned to channel that awesome in a way that or or not even to channel it, but just it’s been misperceived by other people. Would you say that that’s true? Or is it equally does it happen to men as well?
Parissa Behnia 09:39
It happens to it happens to men as well. I have had I don’t I don’t pay attention to gender identity when it comes to my clients. And so, I’ve had my share of male identifying clients who are difficult or who are these badasses or prickly or Harvard is want to describe them and then also Have a fair share of people who identify as women as well. The emotionality of it is I, maybe the word is passionate. How How much do you fight for what your what you believe in so dearly, but you’re not doing an effective job to explain the underlying cause of the passion or the root of the passion, what is driving the passion? What is driving the emotionality? And that’s why it’s I’m not trying to play semantics with him like, is it a motion? Or is it passion that’s misunderstood? I really think it’s passionate. That’s misunderstood.
Maria Ross 10:46
Absolutely, absolutely. And it’s funny when you were when you started off talking about this idea of them being in the driver’s seat, and just going and not looking back, I just think of like those old Bugs Bunny cartoons where they’re, you know, the cars racing, they’re making a getaway, and they think they’re making a clean getaway. And they realize, like, the money they just stole is back at the bank or whatever. So, I got this image, and I’m sure that a lot of people I know, I’ve, I’ve worked for people like that. How do you how do you discern between someone who is that type of leader? Versus what some would call and you might even have opinions about this label, what someone would call a toxic leader.
Parissa Behnia 11:30
Yeah. It’s, it’s interesting, a lot of the pushback I get on my work tends to be well, they’re all toxic. There’s like this spray painted with this broad brush, or the and the feedback, they’ll also get, well, they don’t care what their impact is on other people. And turns out actually, my clients are incredibly sensitive human beings. It turns out that my clients have a negative highlight reel that’s on constant repeat. And so, when they have these moments, where they have been called too much, or the bull in a china shop, or they’ve been disruptive, disruptive, destructive, or the passion, expressed didn’t necessarily match the situation. They recall in full detail, and can and can really also recall in in great detail, the impact they’ve had on other people and their regret is real. And so, it’s really easy to tell, do they have regret? Are they bummed out that they were not able to connect with other people, or is the suit of armor they’re wearing, because they’ve tried other ways, and it’s failed every other way that they’ve tried. So, it’s just much easier for them to be behind the suit of armor, as opposed to understanding maybe a different way to engage that might be more effective. So, this, this ability to harbor regret, and this ability to see very clearly, the impact they’ve had on other people is, is how it is that I discern someone from who other people might call toxic. Now a type of client I would never work with is Adam Newman, the founder of WeWork. He, he was clueless, he made a lot of poor, executive and strategic decisions. This was someone who was very much emperor had no clothes, and people were afraid to tell him that he had no clothes. Another example of someone who I wouldn’t work with is Vishal Garg, the CEO that laid off 900 People over zoom around Christmas, yes. And suggested to them that they were lazy people I’m paraphrasing, I’m not saying that he said that exactly. But but that is someone who is so not environmentally aware, neither one of those individuals appear to express an interest to become environmentally aware, or to be a little bit more present to what was going on in the rooms they were in virtual or otherwise. So it turns out it is actually easy to figure out who my people are.
Maria Ross 14:36
Got it. Got it. And let’s talk a little bit about the role of empathy because you have a whole empathy model to help leaders become more. I don’t want to be more accepted. That’s not the right word, but to help leaders become more into their pet step more into their power and to be able to have the influence they want to have to be able to you’ve mentioned channel laying that, that energy into actual influence. So, talk about the empathy model, because I give you full credit every time I use this is that you always talk about ego kills empathy. Yeah. And you know, we spoke of that about that very early on in the research for my book. So just briefly, tell us a little bit about the empathy model for effective leadership.
Parissa Behnia 15:23
Yeah, I would love to thank you so much for asking. So essentially, the empathy model is a tool I use, not only in terms of helping teams create strategy, but then also helping people understand ways in which they can gauge better with their colleagues, peers, teams, clients from what have you. So, if you’d like I can go through the seven steps briefly, or would that be helpful to really briefly? Okay, great. So, the first step is ego kills empathy. So how are you getting in your own way? The second step is map your present state. So, it’s a state of the state what is true right now in your environment. P is plan your future state. So, what’s the ideal state we’d all like to get to is assess the gaps? What’s the difference between the now and the ideal version of the future? T is test some approaches. H is hone your approach. And why is yield, yield, yield yield the market, the other people on the other side of the table are never wrong. And so, what this does is just like in design thinking, it is meant for us to take a good hard look about what we’re doing, how we would like to be understood better, and also encouraging us to embrace failure and brace ways of engaging with people, sometimes it will LAN, sometimes it will not. The the issue with high performing leaders is that we have such a high emotional attachment to an outcome that we’ll never try. And so, what if we said we’ll probably screw it up. But let’s at least try anyway. And that’s the point of the empathy bottle. And so, in terms of empathy, when it comes to leadership, it’s really about content and context. How do I understand your content and context better, Maria? And how do you understand mine better. And so, one of the exercises I use with my clients is a quick values exercise. So, I’ll say write down your top 10 values, just really quick, don’t even think about it at all, like intuitive based. And then I’ll give them 30 seconds to take out the bottom three, another 20 seconds to take out the bottom two, and then another 20 seconds to take out the another bottom two, and we’re left with three top values, and then evaluate where we’ve been in alignment with our values, and evaluate when we’ve not been in alignment with our values. And then understand the difference between the two. Why are these values so important? And what can we do to better operate in alignment with these values? And what can we do to tell other people what our key values are, and why they’re so important. So specifically, for me, I have five top values I for whatever reason, I can’t get to three, but that’s fine. It’s freedom, truth, justice, creativity, and loyalty. And I always say it in exactly that order. I will touch any work, I won’t engage in anything that isn’t in alignment with at least one of these values. Because I have noticed whenever I have been out of alignment with these values, I’ve had conflict. I’ve had disagreement, I felt alienated. I felt low energy. I felt disengaged, I had no attention span. And so now my body tells me like I know like when I’m fidgety if I can’t pay attention in a zoo, or if I’m in a conversation with someone, like Something’s just not right. And so, use that the core values as the basis for understanding so that when you and I have a conversation, like okay, that’s a starting point. Now that I understand you better you understand me better. What can we create together? Knowing that we have these things on the on the table as a starting point.
Maria Ross 19:59
So, how do you get these leaders who, you know, have this raw power, they’ve sort of been the bull in the china shop, they’ve been the get in the car, just drive and don’t think about if anyone’s strapped in behind you? How do you get them to strengthen their empathy? So that they’re willing to see another point of view? Do you have to do a lot of inner work with them? Where they’re actually having empathy for themselves? First? Yeah. Because you mentioned earlier, a lot of times, they’re very insecure. They’re very wounded. They’re very, you know, it’s like the bullies bully, right? And so how do you help them? You know, they think they’re coming to you just for like, I need help becoming a better leader. But how do you help them strengthen that empathy first? And how do you get them to connect that dot?
Parissa Behnia 20:45
Yeah, you know, a lot of a lot of the conversations early on ended up being about how often do you forgive yourself? How do you treat mistakes? Why are mistakes, so horrible. And so once we start learning to have a little bit of acceptance, for our vulnerability in our humanity, it becomes easier to have a conversation about leadership ultimately being about humanity, and not about the doing of whatever it is that they do. It’s, it’s an invitation to them to release the suit of armor that has worked for for them and with them for so long. And when they show everyone else their Achilles heel, they actually become more credible, as a leader, that’s the counter intuitive truth.
Maria Ross 21:46
Totally, they become more relatable. Yeah,
Parissa Behnia 21:49
They become more relatable, they become they become a more effective leader, once they spend more time expressing their humanity and whoever and however they might be outside of the office, is that same person that they might be inside of the office, completely shedding of this belief that there have to be two people in their lives.
Maria Ross 22:12
Right.
Parissa Behnia 22:13
Just one.
Maria Ross 22:14
Completely, and you’re just in a different context, you’re at work versus at home. I love this, because this has been such a movement of talking about vulnerability, and it’s misunderstood by so many hard charging leaders that they think, you know, it’s just like, what they think empathy is, is vulnerability means I’m crying in my office, and I, my hair’s on fire, and I don’t know what to do. You can have confidence vulnerability. And I spoke, I’ll link to it in the show notes. But one of my early episodes was with Paul Mirabella, who was CEO of harvest North America, the big ad agency, and he spoke about his experiences leading through crisis, including being in New York and 911, and being a leader within an organization. And he said that what he learned over time was that when he at least started to admit that he didn’t have all the answers, not that he was just gonna throw up his hands in the air and say, I don’t, we’re all we’re all screwed, you know, not that kind of vulnerability. But, you know, I’m scared too. And here’s how we’re gonna get through it together, or what are you feeling? Because I’m probably feeling the same way you are? And or I don’t know the answer, but we’re going to find out together, there’s like a confident way to be vulnerable that I think that nuance is missed by so many of those hard charging leaders, they think it’s so binary, it’s either I know everything and it’s going to be my way or the highway, or I’m just going to be this, you know, whimpering mass on the floor that nobody’s going to respect. How do you get them to see that that’s a spectrum?
Parissa Behnia 23:45
Yeah, it’s such a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful point that you’ve made an another leader who does a really good job of saying, I don’t know. And modeling I don’t know is Sara Blakely. She speaks on that a lot. The founder of the founder of Spanx and Blackstone has recently had a major and she was the self that she owned 100% of Spanx until the fall when Blackstone came along and purchased a good chunk of it from her. The this invitation into vulnerability, this, this admitting that you don’t have to have the answers is more about not so much vulnerability, but wouldn’t it be a relief? If you didn’t have to be the chief executive of everything? Wouldn’t it be a relief? If you could be Clark Kent and not Superman? Wouldn’t it be a relief? If you painted a very broad exciting picture of what possibility looks like for your team for your business? As an invited everyone to co create that with you. Just that, take off all of those weights from your shoulder and invite the genius of other people in Gay Hendricks, in his book, The Big Leap talks about our zone of genius being the highest and best use of our time and talent. And I like to say anything outside of the highest and best use of our time and talent is like setting fire to money and time. Why should a leader be in their zone of incompetence? Like what does that prove? It proves nothing, right? So, it turns out, you can do and create more, once you say, This is my genius. And this is the place where I need your help. It’s another counterintuitive truth. Say what your limitations are, so that you can take your team even farther than what you originally imagined.
Maria Ross 26:01
It’s so funny that you’re saying this, because I think of all the sports analogies and military analogies that are used in business today to, to, you know, invite team building or to rally the troops or to get people motivated. And it’s like, yeah, a quarterback doesn’t win a football game by himself. A general doesn’t win a war by herself. She has troops that she deploy, you know, so we accept this and all these other arenas except our own team, sometimes except our own group that we are leading, then it’s like, oh, no one can do this, but me.
Parissa Behnia 26:37
Right. It’s a it’s a tick. And it’s the it’s this. It’s tied to like a cocktail of imposter syndrome and uncertainty, they will figure out I don’t belong in this seat, if I am not chief executive of everything. Or as the belief might be, no, actually you don’t belong in that seat, because you were acting like the chief executive, everything, you’re acting like a manager as opposed to acting like a leader. You know, someone said, I can’t remember who it was, however, many years ago that you know, a manager worries about doing things right. And a leader worries about doing the right things. Let that person who worries about doing the right things, which means letting go of the stuff that you are just not good at. Let it go. Right. It was such a relief for me when I said oh, I don’t have to do my own bookkeeping, which I know is such a small, silly example. But once I gave myself permission to not do the things I was horrible at, and then I’m over overlap. It’s just it opened me up to more creativity, it opened me up to more possibility. And typically, I was happier. I’m happier that I’m not the bookkeeper.
Maria Ross 27:57
Completely. And it’s just funny because I’m thinking of just as a close to home example of that with with my son’s school is, we were trying to find a committee chair for this. We had a bunch of volunteers signed up for this committee, but no chair. And so, I had sent a message out where I was trying to, I was trying to get this committee going not on it, but I was trying to get them to go. And someone wrote me and said. Well, I you know, if no one else is interested, I’d be interested, but I’m not sure I can take this on. And I was like, no, actually, the chair is just setting the direction and delegating to make sure all everyone’s doing what they need to be doing. You don’t have to be doing all the work for that committee. If you chair it, you’re just bringing everyone together. And helping them prioritize and helping them coordinate and do all that I go. So that might actually be easier for you. And so, they were like, okay, I get it, you know that they finally understood being the chair didn’t mean doing all the work.
Parissa Behnia 28:55
Yeah. And also, the best leaders are often with all due respect to really awesome leaders out there, the best leaders are often the dumbest person at the table I designed. Right pipe design.
Maria Ross 29:07
Right? Well, if you’re a good leader, you hire people smarter than you. Right?
Parissa Behnia 29:13
Work smart, not hard.
Maria Ross 29:14
Yeah. And that’s the thing, getting back to your point you made earlier. It’s it’s that insecurity and that ego that gets in the way, where it’s like you’re actually making your life harder. If you don’t let go of your ego as a leader, because then you are going to be doing all the work. You are going to be micromanaging. And you’re gonna be burning bridges along the way.
Parissa Behnia 29:33
Yeah, yeah. And as we know, the great resignation tells us that people leave bad leaders, they don’t leave jobs and they don’t leave companies. So, create development opportunities for people, get people excited. Invite them into the shared picture of success. Have them say yes and to what’s your vision of success. is having someone to work for you say yes and is so amazing. Create that nurture that invite that we all can do so much better. Once we say this is my genius, this is not my genius. What do you all have for me bring it on?
Maria Ross 30:21
Yeah, I’m gonna throw a curveball at you. And maybe you can anonymize an example. But I would love to hear sort of a before and after story. I’m sure my listeners would too, about a client you worked with sort of what was the situation that then you you started with? And where did they go with with doing this work?
Parissa Behnia 30:42
Oh, my gosh,
Maria Ross 30:43
I’m sure you have so many.
Parissa Behnia 30:45
What’s a really good one. Um, so there’s so many good ones. I’m trying to think of one that I can I can tell briefly. There is a woman who I worked with who let’s say she was tired of being the bridesmaid. And she wanted to be the bride. She kept on interviewing for more senior level roles in organizations. And she just wasn’t getting there. And she felt like the feedback that she was getting wasn’t actionable enough. And also, outside she was interviewing, not successful inside her organization, interviewing, not successful and she felt like she was at some sort of plateau. And so, when she and I had a conversation, what immediately became evident to me and slowly became evident to her was this aloofness, this disdain, this unwillingness to participate in conversation or participate in creation, it was more of a observing from afar and believing that everyone could read her mind.
Maria Ross 32:10
So she was she was unintentionally distancing herself from it was unintended interaction. Okay.
Parissa Behnia 32:15
Yeah, yeah, she was a great way to put it. Thank you for summarizing that. And she’s she is not an aloof person by any stretch of the imagination. But her feeling disconnected from her environment. values were not aligned. Her content and context were not understood that the chasm just got bigger and bigger and bigger. And the work that she felt like she was doing was less interesting. And so, her work output, candidly, was not that great. And so, by having this exploration of how she showed up, having this exploration of how she showed up in ways that could be more transparent into what her motivations are, what interests, what her interests were, allow her then to be more engaged at the table and then have other people more engaged with her too. So, the conversation, she ended up happening at the end of the engagement was opportunities from her senior leadership for more responsibility for more visibility. And it was a function of her being better understood, and heard, just declaring to everyone what was important to her and why it was as important. I realized that me describing this sounds so basic, but it is shocking to me how little we share about that which motivates us, and why those things motivate us the way they do. I mean, in in my professional life, I was a square peg in a round hole. Frequently, one of the most heartbreaking things I ever heard in my professional life was that I was the hardest person ever to manage. Wow, cut. Yeah, it was painful. And also, I’m very clear eyed and how I could tribute it to that, and how did I contribute to it? Well, they would give me job descriptions that and and it was, you know, deliver these results, for example. And I would say great, I’ll deliver all these results. But this job description is in the form of a square. Why can’t I make it a sphere? Why can’t I make it a triangle? Why can’t it be a rhombus but what I didn’t understand in that environment was that changing the job description or adding scope, or being more entrepreneurial than what the situation called for, wasn’t welcome. I wasn’t aware of my environment, right? I wasn’t making clear what was important to me or what engaged me. And also, I didn’t know how to ask for help to communicate my wants and desires better. Had I just been a hand raiser and ask for help, or just been a hand raiser and did a better job of explaining why I wanted to do some of the fun things to me that I wanted to do. Right, that experience would have been a little bit better for me. So, three things can be true. One is I didn’t know how to ask for help. Two is that I probably was the hardest person my leader had to manage, of Sure. And three is he didn’t have the training, coaching or support, to know how to help someone like me learn how to ask for the help that I needed. And so, it’s that experience that leads me to find my people to help them.
Maria Ross 36:28
Well, and also what you said earlier about really understanding what you valued. And articulating that because maybe you never would have ended up in that environment. Had you been able to articulate your values more, you would have seen that there was a disconnect with what that environment could offer you versus what you held, dear.
Parissa Behnia 36:32
Yeah, precisely, how would I know what my values were. And I’d been good at articulating them and why they were important, I likely wouldn’t have ended up at some of the places I ended up with. And I would not have been insistent on proving that I fit in in a place where I clearly didn’t fit in. A really great example of that is, it’s 2008. I got married in June of 2008. July of 2008, I started a job in October of 2008. I was fired from said job. I knew the first day that was not my place. And they were not my people. I ignored it. I ignored it. That is the biggest lesson for me. So, this thing about values and being clear about what’s important and clarifying for other people, because no one’s a mind reader.
Maria Ross 37:45
Well, and I think what’s so important about that, as I as you’re talking, I’m thinking about the managers, I’ve enjoyed working with those, I have not enjoyed working with those that like emotionally scarred me. And even with the ones I enjoyed working with, I don’t know if there was an explicit conversation about their values. And I think maybe for some of them, there didn’t have to be because they lived their values. We didn’t we didn’t actually have to sit down and have a talk about like, okay, Maria, here’s what I value on this team, because they were actually living it out in front of me. So, when you first started talking about that, I thought, wow, I never I never had a conversation like that with those managers. And then I thought, oh, I didn’t need to, because they they lived it. You know? What I mean? Is not that you? The takeaway is you don’t need to have that conversation. What I’m saying is that they actually weren’t clear on their values. They because they were living them.
Parissa Behnia 38:40
Yeah, they were living them. And I wonder when we have conversations about values in the context of supporting a business strategy. And so, it’s not, you know, philanthropy because it’s nice to donate to charity. All right, all of those things is that there are hard and fast business reasons why clarity of individual values and team value values matter. Because once the team is gelling, then it becomes easier to hit those targets for sure. And so, what would happen if a team codified their codified their team values in conjunction or recognition that it says service of whatever the strategy is? And also, we knew how that translated down to what our individual roles were and our individual values were in serving that strategy? Yeah. What would How much easier would communication be if there was a little bit more clarity so I with you, on that there are people out there that do walk their talk and it becomes very easy to understand who they are as people Hmm, I’m just offering this up as a yes. And I’m like, yeah, how much better? Would it have been? Yeah, protest the question. Yeah, absolutely.
Maria Ross 40:12
So, you know, you talk about you talk about that example of the opportunity cost. I would love to have this be our final question. What do you think organizations are missing out on? And actually, what are the leaders missing out on that are sort of that very single-minded focus now of my way or the highway? This is this is the goal. This is the agenda. You’re the with me, or you’re not? What is the what is the actual business cost of that style of leadership? Because I think for a long time, that style of leadership served us in the, you know, the Industrial Revolution. Right, right. Right. And those models are falling away. So, what do you what do you think is the is the cost to organizations and to leaders themselves, of, you know, firmly sticking to that strategy?
Parissa Behnia 41:04
Yeah. So, within the the opportunity costs within the context of sidelining some of these badasses or or
Maria Ross 41:11
Well, just the opportunity costs the business if someone’s gonna go, nope, I, I have a clear agenda. I have a clear goal. I’m going to I’m gonna go at it. I know I’m right. I don’t need other input. I’m, you know, it’s the prickly leader, what would it what does the prickly what’s the opportunity cost lost to the organization and to the leader themselves? Yeah, when they’re operating in that way?
Parissa Behnia 41:36
Yeah. So, Gallup does a wonderful study on the state of American workplace. And we know, worldwide that the cost of disengaged employees is in the trillions. And so, if we were to say that a leader who is very much my way, or the highway working, no disagreement, Brooking, no alternative points of view, you are going to kiss goodbye, your high potentials. So, there is a hard and fast dollar cost that all you have to do is Google cost of disengaged employee, ya know, and see it, it ranges for the hundreds of billions into the trillions of dollars. So that’s just, you know, one really quick thing for us to be in consideration of, you know, the, and the, the other thing is, you know, what artist do we not meet? What invention? Do we not have?
Maria Ross 42:44
Innovation suffers? For sure.
Parissa Behnia 42:46
Precisely, precisely. It’s, it’s what embrace of failure Do we not have? Because there’s so much rigidity of thought. And so, if we embraced our more traditional leaders, and also we embraced some of our more prickly leaders, and we created a shared vocabulary, where they communicated better with one another, what would happen? What would happen?
Maria Ross 43:25
It’s amazing. That’s amazing. Um, tell folks a little bit about inconceivable influence, because it’s a program you’ve put together for those people who want to convert their raw power into influence an action and not necessarily change who they are. But channel. So, tell us a little bit about that.
43:45
Yeah, thank you for asking. So, inconceivable influence is a group coaching program, launching in the summer of 2022. And essentially, it’s for people who want to speak truth to power with power and influence. It’s one thing to have raw power, it’s one thing to be loud, it’s another thing to be heard. And so, what I want these bad assets to have is to be in their full badassery. And also have influence to have a seat at the table when complex negotiations are taking place to have a seat at the table when the CEO or the board or the president of the company is making a very difficult decision and your counsel is needed. How do you communicate in ways or how are you seen in ways for people to stop calling you too much and start calling you exactly what we need? Because that is the number one problem with badasses is that they’re called too much whereas I think they’re exactly what we need.
Maria Ross 45:02
I love that. Let’s leave that there. We will have links in the show notes to all your wonderful work and to this inconceivable influence program for listeners who are interested. But for those on the go right now, Parissa tell us where we can find out more about you.
Parissa Behnia 45:19
I am on LinkedIn for a survey to connect with me there and my website is www.sixensestrategy.com.
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your insights and your your thoughts about badass leadership and prickly leaders and all the things. I really do love the term the 3d leaders the difficult, dismissive and divisive. And I also love that you are like, bring it. They’re my favorite people.
Parissa Behnia 45:55
They are. I mean, they’re my people. I am them. I understand them. I love them. I have empathy for them. That’s great.
Maria Ross 46:01
That’s great. Thanks again, Parissa for your time today.
Parissa Behnia 46:03
Thank you. Wonderful, I so enjoyed this conversation, and I love the work that you’re putting out in the world. Thank you.
Maria Ross 46:12
And thanks, everyone listening for tuning in to another episode of the empathy edge podcast, as ever, if you love it, please share it, please rate it and review it. We love how algorithms work and more people can find our podcasts that way. And we also just want to hear what you think. So please leave a rating and a review. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
Oh the price we’ve paid – as both black and white people – because of racism. If we truly want to achieve racial solidarity, we have to start by talking about race, not racism. My guest today Daniel Jahn, DJ for short, has been involved with racial justice and solidarity work for 25 years.
Today, DJ offers us a history lesson about where the concept of race comes from and the real motive behind why it was created. We discuss the evolution of the psychology of racism, and the inner work both black and white people need to do to find unity. DJ’s approach is all about unity and what we can create together, rather than what we fight against. DJ shares his epiphany that we are all healing from racism: what it did to our society, the boxes it put us in, the division it caused, the narratives it created – and how we can do deep inner work to explore how racism has harmed us and how we can heal from it. We also explored the question: What does the world look and feel like if racism no longer exists? And why it’s better for us to have conversations about race, rather than racism. I was so moved by today’s talk and can’t wait to do more work on this journey to create a more equitable and inclusive world – hope you are excited as well!
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
The purpose of creating race, about 315 years ago, was to create “whiteness” and an us-them dynamic.
We don’t learn about race. We learn about racism, but we do not understand, grow or learn about race. Most of America, not just white folks, don’t understand our racial history, or our racial disconnect.
Nobody is trying to usurp anyone else, we are just trying to create unity, equity, and harmony among people.
We all have work to do to end racism. That work will vary based on our racial perspectives.
“For me, ending racism is eradicating the value that is tied to race. We still have racial differences, we still value our uniqueness and our differences, but we all see each other as Americans.”
— Daniel Jahn
About Daniel Jahn, Racial Solidarity Trainer:
Daniel Jahn has served on several nonprofit Boards focused on the development of black youth and school-based racial equity teams. He was a member of the National Strength and Conditioning’s Diversity Taskforce, the National High School Strength Coaches Unity Team and a founding participant in the Groundbreakers program focused on mentorship of black and brown boys. He’s presented nationally several times on issues of race in the performance training field, as well as consulted with schools and companies on their diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) work. Together, with his family, he helped found the David Jahn Memorial Sailing Scholarship Fund to provide opportunities for youth of color to sail. He is deeply committed to the mission and vision of the Soul Focused Group and believes its model to be the true path to racial unity and equity now and in the years to come.
All the price we’ve paid as both black and white people because of racism. If we truly want to achieve racial solidarity, we have to start by talking about race, not racism. My guest today, Daniel, John DJ, for short, has been involved with racial justice and solidarity work for 25 years. He’s done workshops, speaking events, been on nonprofit boards, racial equity teams, diversity task forces, Unity teams, and many more. He owns a gym and has been a sports performance coach for 22 years as well. But his journey progressed when he became a trainer and consultant with soul focused group, which facilitates workshops and consulting for organizations seeking to move beyond racism and into power. Today, DJ offers us a history lesson about where the concept of race comes from, and the real motive behind why it was created. We discussed the evolution of the psychology of racism, and the inner work both black and white people need to do to find unity. deejays approach is all about unity and what we can create together, rather than what we fight against. DJ shares his epiphany that we’re all healing from racism, what it did to our society, the boxes it puts us in the division it’s caused, the narratives it’s created, and how we can do deep inner work to explore how racism has harmed us, and how we can heal from it. We also explored the question, what does the world look like and feel like if racism no longer exists? And why is it better for us to have conversations about race rather than racism? I was so moved by today’s talk, and I can’t wait to do more work on this journey to create a more equitable and inclusive world. Hope you’re excited as well.
Maria Ross 03:14
Let’s get connected. If you’re loving this content, don’t forget to go to the empathy edge.com. And sign up for the email list to get free resources and more empathy infused success tips, and find out how you can book me as a speaker. I want to hear how empathy is helping you be more successful. So please sign up now at V empathy edge.com. Oh, and follow me on Instagram where I’m always posting all the things for you at Red slice Maria.
Maria Ross 03:50
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, Daniel John, otherwise known as DJ, so excited to have this conversation with you about racial solidarity and the role empathy can play in bridging some of those divides. Welcome.
Daniel Jahn 04:02
Thank you. Thank you. I’m very excited to be here. I’m always excited to talk about the topic. So
Maria Ross 04:07
Yeah, we, we had such a great pre interview, which we actually should have recorded that because it was it was awesome. So, much good stuff. Yeah, you know, you, you are a gym owner by day and I feel like a racial solidarity leader and activist, also by day and night. So, tell us how you even got to this work. And your personal story related to how you got to this work? For sure. A teaser. Yeah, and you’re working now with soul focus group, which is an organization that that does facilitation of human solidarity workshops for organizations, just for folks who can’t see you right now. Can you just tell us a little bit about your background and how your parents got into all this work as well?
Daniel Jahn 04:32
For sure. Yeah. So, I was 18 years old, and I was a senior in high school and I did a workshop with a group called the People’s Institute for undoing structural racism. And I just kind of fell in love with it. I guess, precluded that. My you know, my parents have always been very heavily involved in the movement, you know, for racial justice, and we kind of came up learning me at my sister and I grew up learning you know all about got it. And so, it was kind of a natural flow. And so, I, I also played baseball. And so, I got a scholarship to play at the University of Washington. And I went in, you know, it’s kind of thinking that, like, I started out as a physics and math and double major and think, okay, like science, you know, this history, sociology, racial justice stuff is fun, but I don’t really know. And I’m just all about playing ball, right? So, after my junior year, I was medically disqualified, I got got injured. And at that point in time, I had, I was almost done with a history, history degree and associate sociology degree and a minor in physics. And they, at the time, I got injured, they said, Well, you know, we really want you around, we want you to coach. And so, I actually got hired as a strength and conditioning coach at the University of Washington. So that threw me into the world of anatomy, kinase, and physiology and biomechanics. And, you know, it was great, it was, you know, I love training, I love coaching and, you know, working with athletes and whatnot. And so, what I ended up doing is because I’ve always had this passion for, you know, racial solidarity work and racial unity work, I would just volunteer, you know, so I, you know, served on several boards, and I did work in the community and did mentorship work, and just so on and on, I continued, just helping in that arena. And I actually left the university at the University of Washington in 2006, to start my own business, and it’s been going for about 15 years now. So, the, the gym, yeah, the gym by day, Rachel unity, work by day at night is a great way to describe it. But you know, I’ll leap forward a little bit, Maria on this, because it’s actually one of the reasons that I find myself here with you is that, you know, this gym has given me a space to connect with people. And really, understanding race is all about connection. And so, you know, after George Floyd happened, everybody wanted to talk, and it because it was, you know, a natural fit for me. You know, I loved it, I welcomed it, I invited it, you know, in and, and any opportunity I had, I chatted with people. And so, I ended up doing a Instagram Live with one of my clients who had like, a million and a half followers. And so there was like, 100, some 1000 people watched it. And so, after that, what they, you know, like, she just kind of convinced me to start my own Instagram saying, Okay, well, you know, people need to, you know, hear this more and get involved with this more and more engaged. And so, I did. And so, throughout 2020, you know, that I, I just had tons of conversations about race. And and I ended up, I was involved in starting the diversity task force for the National Strength and Conditioning Association, which, of course, I’m a part of, and the National High School strength coaches association started unity committee that I was a part of, as well. And so, I’m not going to go beyond there, because there’s more of this story to talk about. So, I’m gonna leave it there, just as a bit of my background, but essentially, that’s how I got. Absolutely. Well, I am a kind of a walking symbol of racial unity. And I my dad was white, and he just passed so he was white and my, my mom is black. And, you know, both sides of my family are very supportive of everyone in it, you know, so we didn’t have, you know, any racial issues at all. My, the white side of my family actually were Quaker. We didn’t. My dad, so Mike, essentially, my grandparents were, you know, continued in the Quaker faith. My dad didn’t really participate actively. And my mom’s side was was Catholic. But everybody got along everybody. You know, like I said, there was there was really no racial issues at all and and I was just reading a book actually, Thomas Chatterton Williams wrote a book called unlearning race. And one of the things he mentioned and that stuck with me was that there are very there’s a lot of black folks in our country who spend their entire lives without ever really having true intimate love from white people. Right? So especially when you know in the younger in our younger years If you don’t have any real, true connection, you know, to white folks, there’s you know, you grow up with certain ideas and resentments and thoughts about, you know, what white folks are to you and what that stuff all means. Right? And so for me, as you know, someone who’s black and mixed, you know, I grew up with black people and white people. And when my, you know, my parents had lots of friends of kinds of nationalities.
Maria Ross 10:36
It was normalized for you.
Daniel Jahn 10:37
I was yeah, exactly. And it was love of all was was normalized. So that made this this really easy. So, you know, I know, you mentioned the sole focus group. So, I’m going to tie this together here real quick. I. So as you know, a black person during a time early after George Floyd, where there was a lot of talk about like, okay, as black people, should we take on this the learning for white folks? Should we like be answering all of these questions?
Maria Ross 11:09
People have very definite opinions about that. Oh, yeah. People said,
Daniel Jahn 11:13
No, some people said, Yes, I was always, you know, I am someone who believes that doors open, and they close. And so there was a window of opportunity for us all, when the newspapers decided to go down into Alabama and shed some light on the dogs and the fire hoses. And there has been another window and door that has opened since George Floyd. And so, I think we need to take advantage of it. And I think that all of us need to be open to conversations about race. And so I was someone who I was a huge proponent of it. I said, you know, what? We can’t be we can’t we can’t sit on the We can’t sit on the bench right now, when people want to talk.
Maria Ross 11:54
Do you think that that was from your background, because I’ve spoken to other people of color, who very like I said, very adamantly are like, it’s not our job to educate White people on our experience, even though there are many white people with good intentions that are like, how else am I going to understand the experience unless I talk to people, and they can read books, and they can, you know, find their own information? But what what do you think, gives you that perspective? Is it is it because of your upbringing of seeing the power of bringing those groups together? Or what do you think makes that difference for you?
Daniel Jahn 12:26
But yeah, I definitely think that’s part of it. You know, race is really all about our perspectives and our experiences, you know, and I think the thing that I saw then, and I continue to see even now is that people love to talk about racism, but they don’t like to talk about race. And that’s primarily because we don’t learn about race, we learn about racism, but we do not understand or grow or learn about race. And so, for me, it’s, you know, most of America, not just white folks, most of America don’t understand our racial history, or our racial disconnect. And I want to get into that. Yeah. And I want to get into that, because you’ve talked to me before about the fact that race is a human made concept. And so, can you give us a little bit of that history lesson on that? Because I know you’ve, you’ve studied it. Yeah, it’s a total, it’s completely a social construction. And it happened for one specific reason. And that reason was to divide us. Okay. And so normally, when I’m having these conversations, Maria, I generally start, you know, I, I stopped at racism. And I let you know, informed folks that we, you know, that’s we’re jumping, putting the cart in front of the horse. When we do that we have to talk about race first. Okay. Because in, you know, 350 years ago, there was no race. And it really only became significant in 1705. So, we’re talking 315 years ago, right. So, in the word white hadn’t actually been written consistently until 1680. In the House of Burgesses, okay. And in 1676, there was a very significant event that happened, what I believe probably one of the most significant in our history. So essentially, we were all new worlders. And there was a man named Nathaniel Bacon, who led a revolt of slaves, and also white indentured servants against the colonial elites in Virginia, William Burke. And so, it was very successful. And, you know, so after that event, the the colonial elites knew that there, you know, they were going to have to do something, to keep all of these really poor folks from overthrowing you know, throwing them off the land and just and killing them. And because essentially, you had tons of slaves and you had tons of Blyden indentured servants. And so, what they decided to do was was specifically designate European settlers and people that were coming into the country as white and African slaves or new world, slaves essentially, as black, there was three categories race was created for two. But there was three categories indigenous, what they called savages back then, of course, was one, and white and black were the other. So, the purpose of creating race was actually to create what we call whiteness, which really operated as this club, which said to you, you’re the indentured servants and you European, really poor European settlers, mostly, you know, Scots Irish that were coming in. That said, Look, you know, we you don’t have a lot, but you, you at least you’re not black, you have a little bit more than that. Yeah, they created an us versus them dynamic, they create an us versus them. So, what happened was that the immediate by creating race, right? We, since we only did it to create, in fact, the value proposition, white identity became explicitly tied to the inferiority of blacks, and essentially, black slaves. And that is what has been the most damaging part of what we have to deal with and clean up now. Right? So we’re all living with it, and we’re trying to figure it out. And we’re trying to try to grasp it. But but the The difficult part is because as a society, we’ve never really gotten to the root of what’s going on. We think it’s we think, honestly, that it’s slavery, because we had a system of race-based slavery here. You know, we think that that, that that has caused everything else now that we’re slavery ties in, it’s very important is because it was the economic system that grew this nation, we are we are explicitly tied to race, there is no America, if there is no race, and there is no America if there is no racism, right, because racism followed race, they had to justify this, you know, torturous, horrible system that grew wealth, right, that allowed us to even go to war with England. So, there wouldn’t be a country, if there was no slavery, there wouldn’t be slavery, if there wasn’t racism, and there wouldn’t be racism if there was no race. Okay, so the psychology behind what it means is what is it’s been so damaging to all of us, especially in this era, where, you know, essentially we are, you know, let’s say 1971 was, like, one of the last laws on the books to go that explicitly said, okay, you know, black people are less than white folks. Right? So, we’re in this era that, you know, there’s no real written laws and policies, like there were at following the Civil Rights Movement that says, okay, you know, black people, you are less than white people. And so, in so many ways, right. Now, laws are administered in different ways. But all of it is tied to the idea to this construct, that essentially, white people are the best people. Right, and everyone else is kind of second in line, you know, depending on who you are, and how you look and some and how dark you are, and, right. And so, if we can, if we understand that the root of this was made up, we just pulled it out of thin air. Okay, there were there’s no biological reference to, you know, or specificity of race at all. I mean, there’s more racial, you know, or there’s more genetic diversity within race than across, we’ve seen that because of ancestry.com and 23andme. Right? Do we know that it was just simply made up to keep us disconnected, then we can start to think, okay, you know, what, now I’m I, I can somewhat understand why it is that I am so confused. You know, when somebody says, Well, you know, like, all white people are racist, or somebody else says, Well, I don’t, you know, then like, I don’t get why, you know, all, you know, black people are killing each other, but they’re talking about the police, or I don’t you know, this all of these, this disproportionality is it, you know, doesn’t really just come from work ethic, why don’t they just work harder? And why don’t you know, I don’t I like everybody. And and, you know, I never heard anybody and so why am I you know, why are they blaming me? And it turns directly, it turns into an us versus them. And so, I’m at the point now, and after 25 years of doing this and talking and being involved, that any conversation that has to that pit that essentially pits two perspectives against one another is not a conversation that I’m really interested in. It’s not going to get us towards where we want to be. Eat, which I’m going to assume is to get end racism. And for me, what ending racism is, is eradicating the value that is tied to race. So, we still have racial differences, we still value our uniqueness and our difference. But we all see each other as Americans.
Maria Ross 20:24
And we focus on what I love that you said that DJ, because I think that’s often the missing piece is we need to have more conversations, we need to have more programs, we need to have more of this, that the other to what end. And I love that you’ve just defined that. The goal of all this is x. The goal is not to shame people, the goal is not to rehash I mean, we have to educate and be aware. But I don’t know if anyone has ever articulated what the goal is of why we’re talking about this so much, and why we need to talk about so much and why we need anti racism education and, and why I think people have put it into a moral camp of, of if they are racist, but don’t admit that they are. They feel that their identities being attacked. And they feel that just you know, maybe it’s just, it’s all going to be angry, it’s all going to be blamed, it’s all going to be this and no one ever articulates the way you just did. What are we doing all this for? Right? Right. And I think if we, if we could make more people aware of that, you take the fear out of it for some people, you know, kind of, for me, I am gonna pass judgment, these crazy theories of replacement theory and all that kind of stuff. No one’s trying to usurp anyone else. We’re just trying to create unity and harmony. And I feel like the way you just described it. Tone, not tones it down, but deescalates it a little bit to where you might actually be able to get people in the same room talking.
Daniel Jahn 22:07
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And like, I think on our first conversation, one of the things I asked you was like, you know, if racism ends today, and you step out of your house tomorrow, what does the world look like? What does it feel like? What does it sound like? You know, what? What are the conversations? What are the behaviors? What are the interactions? What are the Howard laws administered? How are how are the political discussions like, you know, what are, you know, investment conversations, like, what is everything about our society look like? And you if you are really serious about ending racism, like if we’re just, you know, I mean, if we’re just so I one of the questions you asked at the beginning, I was like, Okay, where are we in this? You know, we’re to today, we are two years old.
Maria Ross 22:58
As of this recording, we’re, we’re honoring the and second anniversary of George Floyd Smarter.
Daniel Jahn 23:04
Right. You know, a lot of folks say, we’ve made a lot of progress. A lot of folks say that we you know, what kind of progress really, you know, have we made, you know, what, where are where are we? Right? So, you know, for me, if we’re really looking at like, okay, creating racial unity, creating equity, and ending this then, like, all of the work to hire all this DDI folks, and all of these discussions and podcasts and, and all of this stuff, like if it doesn’t move us towards ending it. Why are we doing it?
Maria Ross 23:43
Exactly. And I think even can’t picture why are we doing? Yeah, and people can’t picture they’ve I don’t think we’ve thought through enough. What you just said? Yeah, what does it look like?
Daniel Jahn 23:55
Like it, we got to visualize it? We do. And for me, what it is, like I mentioned to you is that I can step into a world and and move throughout a society in which my skin color my hair texture and my eye color bears no value. Okay, it’s different. Yes. We, you know, like lots of people say, Well, we’ll find differences. We’re tribal by nature, you know, yeah, there, there will be differences. But guess what, let’s take race out of it. I mean, let’s actually know it. No, I’m sorry. There are going to be differences, but we can choose how to see those differences, right. So, our differences are unique, and they’re valuable. We are all Americans, we’re here to create a stronger society. Okay. What we can also do at the same time is say because someone looks different than I do. That doesn’t mean they are less than me or better than we can hold two thoughts in our head at the same time. Yeah, we are. Yes, we can do that. Completely compared. And so, there’s, there’s something else that I want to bring up that you mentioned too. that just a bit ago, I don’t remember exactly the context, but you said if somebody you know is a racist or they don’t, maybe they aren’t, or they don’t know they are they’re trying not to. So, this is one word that I think is actually very problematic for us. And we either need to break it all the way down, or we just need to get rid of it. Okay, because what I have not ever been privy to is someone defining what a racist is. Okay, is that just someone who doesn’t like somebody because of their race? Is it somebody who, one time went to a Klan rally? And then you know, as somebody who was in the Klan 30 years and then denounced and then has been working for racial justice for 10 years? Is it someone who, you know, votes for policies that are damaging to communities of color is this? What is it exactly?
Maria Ross 25:59
Is it just someone who’s mean to people of color? Is it someone who is nice to people of color to their face, but not when they’re not around? Like, yeah, there’s so many we we’ve never defined that.
Daniel Jahn 26:10
And it’s not helpful. No, it’s not if it’s, if where we’re trying to go is to build racial unity and American racial solidarity. Right, and, and the value proposition tied to race, okay? It just trying to point out and find who the racists are, or trying to distance yourself from the word or, you know, what I mean? Like, or, or, you know, I felt like, every time that they’re in George Floyd, I mean, like, okay, he’s one of many, many, many incidents, since I’ve been really heavily involved in this work in the last 20, some years, in which I’ve watched our society do two things. One is open, some doors get opened. And the other is, is people run from the idea of race and racism and say, See, that’s what’s that’s what racism is. That’s not me. I’m not that I’m not tied to that. Right. It’s like is there’s this weird, there’s, it’s, but it always comes back to disconnection, Maria, I mean, it really does. I mean, racism so effectively disconnects us. Right? It’s told white people, they can only be tall when black people are on their knees. Okay, it’s all black people, you’re never going to be as good as white folks. And I’m just using really, briefly, I’m using black and white now. Because when we created race, it was it was really, it was created for black and white. And so, you know, it is the concept of Asian as a race is stupid. Okay, the concept of, you know, Mexican, as a race or Latino as a race, right? It was designed for skin color, I texture, your eye color and hair texture, right? So, we often confuse ethnic origin and nationality and race with each other, which makes people more confused. You know, racism is extremely complex, it’s the most, I think it’s the most complex domestic issue we have.
Maria Ross 28:13
Is there is Is there ever a vision for you that if we got to a world where, like you said, we walk out our door, we wake up one day, and there is no racism? Are we not even using that word anymore?
Daniel Jahn 28:28
Well, it doesn’t mean anything. Right? Right. I mean, it wouldn’t, it wouldn’t necessarily mean anything now that we’re not going to race is, is there, right? It’s part of who we are. It is, we are who we are because of race. It is America’s export to the world. Right? We this is our biggest impact. We are who we are because of race. So, it’s not like we’re just it’s just gonna go away. Okay, but maybe we find different terms, maybe we internalize the meaning behind it differently, which is kind of what what I hope happens, right? So, skin color, hair texture, you know, eye colors, the differences are there, you know, but as as long as we can, you know, interact and behave and reprogram our subconscious and our conditioning, to understand that race really means nothing. We just made it up. Then we can live in a society where I think that this you know, that you so here’s, here’s, here’s an interesting thing that I learned through the sole focus group, actually, what’s your I can talk more about in a minute, but which is that you know, we like to talk about systems and institutions, all the time, racism and structural racism, institutional racism, we’d like to bring that up, but who makes up systems and institutions? We do. So, the reason why all of these laws and the way A systems operate the way they do is because people brought the psychology of race, they brought their social conditioning into their arena of work, whether that be political or corporate or nonprofit, it doesn’t matter. We’re just taking who we are and our conditioning with us everywhere we go. So, if we get killed if we can end the and heal from the racism within us, right, and that’s everybody. Okay, that’s all people in this society, if we can heal, you know, and work on racism within us, then we can start to go out to society and to the system, the schools and and the, you know, corporations and the banks and the criminal justice system, we got to start with our ourselves.
Maria Ross 30:49
Well, and that’s something we we dug into really was this was this power of, of looking at, obviously, looking inward. And looking for what, you know, you I think we had talked about the fact that a lot of it is about fear about lack of love about insecurity, that people are embracing this human made constructs, because it serves them. So, what, what’s an example of or even just generally what’s, what is the inner work that people need to do? And is it different if you’re black versus white?
Daniel Jahn 31:23
Yep, absolutely. Absolutely.
Maria Ross 31:25
So, answer might be no, I don’t know. But
Daniel Jahn 31:26
No. Yeah, the answer? The answer is absolutely, yes. The work that we need to do is based on our racial perspective, right? So, I’ll tell you about me. So just briefly, I was doing all these discussions, I’ll take it back for a second and 2020, I get to the end of 2020. And something’s not sitting right with me. I don’t I can’t figure out what is going on. I’m having tons of conversations. But but but something is not really clicking. And, and I’m realizing that, that it’s, I don’t feel like I am participating in something that will create transformational change. And one of the main reasons was because all of the conversations I was having with primarily white folks was that essentially tied them to feeling for someone else. So essentially, it was that like, you’re racist, this really sucks and like, Man, I want to do something about it. But ingrained in them, that meant they want to do something for people of color, not for themselves. And I couldn’t put the word on it yet, I didn’t quite know. But what end up happening is in January of 2021, I got connected through this Instagram deal to the sole focus group, and I got to sit in on a workshop and they have they have they do a four to five part, you know, workshop. And this particular workshop was part two, and it was called healing from racism. And when I heard the title, I’m like, Okay, well, that must be for people with color. Like, you know, I don’t know, like, you know, people of color people been hurt by somehow, whether, you know, some action or something, right. I didn’t know people who, quote unquote, were victims of victims, yes. And it was a completely different experience for me, sitting in on it, and I and it forced me to, like, really take a look at how I’ve defined myself, and how my parents might have defined themselves and how I was helping educate my children based on like, essentially living in a society swimming in this ocean, which essentially says white folks are better than black folks. And, and so I started to deconstruct, and I went deeper and deeper, and I got more involved with them. But the thing for me was like, Okay, I really need to take a look at what’s going on with me. And, you know, before I go out here and tell everybody else how to do this, right. And so, you know, what I found was that like, you know, my, my, any conversation that I would have started with this initial thought that like, well, I’m going to be judged based on my intellect and based on my ability to appear, you know, capable and count me out and how confident I am how smart I am. And I know that because as a black man, I mean, that’s my experience. And it shaped it’s an honest, shaped my conversations and shaped my behavior, and it shaped my energy. And so, I never really thought deep enough about how big a part of my life that had been how many times I were just
Maria Ross 34:44
You were just used to doing it. I was just used to doing it. Yeah. And sorry to interrupt. I just I just want to add because this is so important, and not that it’s quitted. But you know, oppression of any kind. I think there’s so many women that end up realizing that we they get older and more confident in their careers, they start realizing that so much of their decision making so much of what they brought to work, or how they acted at work, was through a lens of I have to make sure that as a woman, I am perceived or not perceived a certain way. And this is the thing that I think is true of any marginalized group, as related to white males, who are, you know, we’re not saying you are all horrible people, but you are just not used to having to deal with that inner narrative. At any point in your life, where it’s, you have to wonder how you’re showing up as a white man. Yeah.
Daniel Jahn 35:44
I will. I will pause you on that one is that, but so white men have their own difficulties, of course. And so that and one of them, we are seeing in the last, like, we’re seeing the result of when the last 20 years or so with this route with the rise of white males? Yes, when white male suicide aged 40 to 60. Right? Because we’ve all been lied to. We’ve been duped. Okay, we have been led to believe that white men are essentially the people who run and should run and who have our country and our society and who have the best judgment, and they should be the lawyers and the politicians and the CEOs. And you know, just because that’s
Maria Ross 36:28
And that hurts those people to expectation, I think that’s you getting to that point of like, everyone is healing from this.
Daniel Jahn 36:35
Yeah, yeah, we didn’t, we’re all victim to this, none of us created this. Right. This was created hundreds of years before any of us were born before our parents were born hundreds of years before our grandparents were born. Right? We’re all living in it. Okay. And all of us do have healing to do, yes, what, like, white men have been totally disconnected and cut off from people of color, because of the value proposition put on our ancestors. It has put them in a position, like I said earlier, you know, that in which they, they’re expected to be tall, because everyone else can only be you know, when everyone else is on their knees, okay. And so, we’re all we are all playing a role it’s taken. Whiteness is something that was done to people and blackness was something that was done to people, right. It’s not something that was done for us, it was done to us in order to disconnect us. And so, I think when we’re, when we’re talking about these issues, we always have to remember that race has got, it’s really our only connector. It’s not the disconnect, or it’s actually the connector, it was something to done done to all of us in a different way, in for one reason, right to make money submit is to make money. Okay. And so So, you know, I didn’t mean to cut you off Maria. But to take it back to what what ended up happening, I just reconstructing my vision of myself, how and you know, how I went about in the world, and the conversations that I was having helped lead me, you know, to a place in which I started to see things and in a different way. And so, I think, for me, the most important people, most important thing that people need to do, like right away is to say, how has racism harmed me? And how can I heal from that? How has racism harmed me? And how can I heal from that?
Maria Ross 38:33
And when you had that, that breakthrough? Did things start to align? Did you did you realize that that was the missing piece for you?
Daniel Jahn 38:42
Oh, yeah, well, it definitely set me on a path of learning. Learning more, I thought I had this stuff figured out.
Maria Ross 38:48
Right, I know, you said you always sort of felt like something didn’t quite jive for you quite resonate
Daniel Jahn 38:55
At the end of 2020. But all the way up through that, but you know, until the fall of 2020, I was like, you know, I kind of have this stuff figured out. I know the story. I know, our history. I know, you know about implicit bias. I know about you know, our, you know about structural racism, and I know about a criminal justice system. So, I kind of have it figured out it was all about teaching. Honestly, it was like mostly about teaching white people about the perspectives of people of color, you know, and I thought that was it. But it’s not. And that’s where I, I shifted my learning and it became much more so and I’m, I’m so like, glad that that your the podcast is about empathy, because really, that’s, this is about our connection to each other. And it’s about us, you know, and we mentioned the last time we talked, you know, these acts of hate, come because of deep feelings of insecurity, right, and a lack of love and neglect and things that have to do with who we are as beings. It’s the Same reason why racism has just been so been able to be so rampant because we’re so mentally unhealthy in our society right now. We don’t feel good about ourselves. So, disobey, so any, you know, any, any, anybody who’s different from me must be less than me somehow, right? Because they’re trying to take something from me, they’re trying to take something from me because I’m constantly trying to justify my own being and who I am and my, you know, my strength and my, you know, my, my intellect, all of that it just starts with me, right? You know.
Maria Ross 40:36
And I love as you were talking, I just got this lovely image of wouldn’t it be great, instead of all of these issues like, there’s a group of us that as, as an example, at my son’s school are trying to build like an equity and inclusion group already being, you know, just from trying to gauge if there was interest, there was all sorts of fear mongering and all sorts of like, oh, this means they’re gonna bring CRT to the school and blah, blah, blah, blah. And like what a different image I get from hearing you describe the mutual healing, that it’s not walking into a room ready for a confrontation, it’s almost like everyone putting their arms around each other. And going, we have all suffered from this, we are not, we are not coming into this group or into this room to shame or blame, or whatever we’re going to, we’re going to become more aware of what’s been done to all of us. And I just as you were talking to just got this image of like, what a what a more thriving conversation you have, if you’re envisioning it that way, where you’re all putting your arms around each other, and you’re walking into that room together. Yeah, absolutely. And then maybe those, you know, if we had more of that talk, and more of that understanding, we could bring people along, even if they don’t think they need healing, but they just know, I’m gonna get into the room because I know this isn’t going to be an attack on me. And they might uncover their own epiphanies if we can at least get them in the room. So just, I love that. And you know, when the the person that connected us, the wonderful Whitney keys talked about the fact that why we needed to talk was because you do bring this very joyful aspect to this, it’s very unifying aspect to this conversation. And I think I just felt it in what you described, and how you described it.
Daniel Jahn 42:29
For sure. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, no, thank you. I mean, we have this incredible opportunity right now, to really connect with each other and grow from each other and create the kind of society in which we really genuinely all thrive, based on, you know, the, the work we put in, and, and you know, who we can become, you know what I mean? And, but it’s really going to take all of us and it’s going to take us, you know, looking inside ourselves and realizing, you know, how, like I said, how we’ve been harmed and how we can grow. And, and being honest with ourselves, I mean, you mentioned that, you know, CRT and that really, the fear of CRT really comes from it started out with the idea that somehow all white people are racist, right? Or that that the idea that that all white people really know. Let me just go back. It said all white people are bad. So, what what a lot of people heard is that like, all white people are bad, even though they had nothing. They knew nothing about critical race theory or why
Maria Ross 43:29
people that hate it don’t understand it. So yeah. And
Daniel Jahn 43:32
So, then that became I am bad. So as soon as it’s I am bad. I’m totally rejecting anything that has to do with of course, right. Yeah. And so So, you know, this is all tied to our insecurity and how we feel about each other. And how we feel requires the healing. And why requires healing? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So
Maria Ross 43:54
Well, DJ, we’re gonna have many more talks, I’m sure. But thank you so much for sharing this history lesson and your insights and your perspectives on this. Folks can probably get in touch with you for workshops or speaking on this topic as well. And the the joyful aspect that you bring to it, but where’s the best place for people to connect with you and learn more?
Daniel Jahn 44:18
Yeah, know, for sure. So, the Instagram that I that I started, of course, and still like to post up on is a good one. That’s just my name at Daniel underscore, John. J. H. N. J. H, and yes, yes. That’s German, its German. Hello. And then also, you know, I highly encourage people to look at the sole focus groups website and connect, you know, if whether or not you’re a part of an organization or business, you know, there there’s tons of there’s I think they have there’s an online curriculum now. You know, there’s more, that will be available for folks just to tap into, you know, the It’s a breath of fresh air, I’ll tell you, you know, it’s a breath of fresh air. And it’s it’s a, it’s a solution focused solution focus workshops and ideas and language around this topic that everybody can buy into really.
Maria Ross 45:16
I love it. And we will have their link in the show notes as well. So,
Daniel Jahn 45:20
Excellent.
Maria Ross 45:21
Thank you so much for the work that you’re doing. Thank you for sharing your story with us today. And thank you for sharing your insights as well.
Daniel Jahn 45:27
Yeah, no, thank you. I’m always like I said, I’m always up to talk and then we can chat again, whenever.
Maria Ross 45:33
For sure we might have to have you on again. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you loved it, please share it with a colleague or a friend. And don’t forget to rate and review we love that. And until next time, remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion, and unity are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
If you are an ambitious, hard-driving leader who never stops to take a breath – you need to listen to today’s episode. Pausing as a leader is vital to making better decisions, regulating your emotions, and creating stronger relationships with your team. You may think that rapid pace is the way to find success, but it will just burn you and your team out. Today my guest is Dr. Chris L. Johnson, author of The Leadership Pause: Navigating the Future with Clarity, Focus & Empathy. Today we talk about why she chose pausing as the topic of her leadership book, why pausing is both mental and physical – and why it’s simple but not easy! We discuss the benefits of pausing, both for you as a leader and for your team’s performance. We also dive deep into the connection between triggers and mindful pausing – and why being unable to stop long enough to recognize your triggers can lead to disastrous results – personally and professionally.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
There is no fully separating your work self and your personal self. What is going on at home will impact your work, and what is going on at work will impact your personal life.
Beginning to pause is about a full body practice. It is about dropping from our monkey mind, and dropping into the body and the sensations to allow us to start to shift gears.
Triggers are normal. We shouldn’t squash them, but we should learn from them about ourselves, our old strategies, and new strategies for moving forward in our leadership.
People are trying to juggle too much, they feel too overwhelmed and too busy. In fact, that’s a result of not pausing.
“Every time we do a reset, it isn’t just mental, it resets our biology. And when it does that, we have more access to the resources that all of us bring to the table in the first place.”
— Dr. Chris L. Johnson
About Chris L. Johnson, Consultant and Author, The Leadership Pause
Chris Johnson, PsyD. has devoted her life to the deep listening that underpins ‘what matters most’ in people’s lives. She’s the founder of Q4 Consulting, Inc. a Chicago based consulting firm committed to cultivating exemplary leaders, collaborative teams, healthy workplaces and engaged, thriving communities. An experienced psychologist, mindfulness teacher and executive leadership coach, she’s known for creating trust with those who value her honesty, deep listening and commitment to their success.
Chris is the Chair of Conscious Capitalism Chicago and on the leadership team of Ellevate Chicago. She just released her book, The Leadership Pause: Navigating the Future with Clarity, Focus & Empathy. When she’s not working, Chris is likely either gardening, reading a great book, making art, or at the aikido dojo where she practices and teaches the art of peace.
If you’re an ambitious hard driving leader never stops to take a breath. You need to listen to today’s episode. Pausing as a leader is vital to making better decisions, regulating your emotions and creating stronger relationships with your team so they can perform. You may think that rapid pace is the way to find success, but it will just burn you and your team out. today. My guest is Dr. Chris L. Johnson, author of the leadership paws, navigating the future with clarity, focus and empathy. She’s devoted her life to the deep listening that underpins what matters most in people’s lives. She’s the founder of Q4 Consulting, a Chicago based consulting firm, committed to cultivating exemplary leaders, collaborative teams, healthy workplaces, and engaged thriving communities, and experienced psychologist, mindfulness teacher and executive leadership coach. She’s known for creating trust with those who value her honesty, deep listening and commitment to their success. Chris is also the chair of conscious capitalism, Chicago and on the leadership team at Elevate Chicago. Today we talk about why she chose pausing as the topic of her leadership book, why pausing is both mental and physical, and why it’s simple, but not easy. We discuss the benefits of pausing both for you as a leader and an individual, but also for your team’s performance. And we dive deep into the connection between triggers, and mindful pausing, and why being unable to stop long enough to recognize your triggers can lead to disastrous results, personally and professionally. Take a listen.
Maria Ross 03:12
Chris Johnson, welcome to the show, Dr. Chris Johnson. Welcome to the empathy edge. We’re so happy to have you and I’m so excited to talk about the importance of leaders taking a pause. I think this is underrated, and much maligned by ambitious, go getter leaders, and you are here to tell us why that is wrong wrong wrong.
Dr. Chris Johnson 03:36
I’ll give it a shot. Because I actually believe it’s really essential for all of us, who aspire to lead in any way that we’re leading. The PTA, your church community, a big corporate. Yes, I think it’s yes,
Maria Ross 03:50
all of the things. I love it. I love it so much. So just quickly before we dive into the topic of your book, the leadership pause navigating the future with clarity, focus and empathy, which is why we’re here. But before we get into that, how did you get into this work of devoting your life to to deep listening and helping create exemplary leaders?
Dr. Chris Johnson 04:16
Well, the short answer, Maria is that I grew up with two amazing entrepreneurial parents, who were busy all the time, worked really hard, and tended to fight a lot. And so, as a kid, I was at the mercy my sister and I have a lot of contentious difficulty, and I learned from there to really, really listen and there was made more complicated by the fact that my dad had a really severe stutter. So, you could only imagine what the fights were like and what they sounded like with somebody who couldn’t get his words across very clearly.
Maria Ross 04:51
That must have been painful. I mean, painful for for everyone painful for him and not being able to communicate exactly what he wanted to communicate and yeah, painful to hear. You know, I always I always like in when you’re when you’re hearing an argument or you’re hearing like a contentious conversation, and it’s almost like you see the trains colliding. Yeah, there’s nothing you can do to stop it. It’s almost like, oh, I can see where the miscommunication is between these two, like, I can see it see it plain as day, but they can’t. Exactly well.
Dr. Chris Johnson 05:21
And when you’re a kid, you know, so often kids are kind of dismissed as they don’t know what’s going on. But kids are really keen to tune in to energy. And so, I think early on that kind of set the stage and the answer that I would say, or then I thought at the time was there’s got to be a better way. And so even as a, as a little kid, I was tuned into how do we talk to each other? How do we have conversations that matter, and even get kind of heated and still stay in the fray, to connect with one another. And so, it started really early. And then fast forward through my career, meeting all kinds of folks where the the common denominator in, regardless of whatever the work that we do in the world, is that we have to deal with each other as people. So, and that’s where the rub is. And so that’s where the opportunity is to. And so, conversations and empathic conversations are really, really essential to good leadership.
Maria Ross 06:17
and I’m so curious, because you’re an experienced psychologist, you are a, an executive leadership coach, you’re a mindfulness teacher, and you choose to work in the corporate realm, rather than, you know, personal, you know, with marriage counseling, or families or individuals. I’m curious was that a, was that an intentional decision, or did sort of opportunity drive you into seeing the need being greater in organizations?
Dr. Chris Johnson 06:44
You know, I think it’s a little bit of both, if I’m honest, so I have a lot of experience working with couples and individuals and all of that. But a lot of the folks that I would meet individually, whether in a couple relationship, or personally, would often talk about what was going on at work. And early on in my career, I worked in corporate wellness, that’s what we would call it today. And from that vantage point, we know that when there’s contention, it rises increases our blood pressure, right. And so, I really believe that business is a force for good in the world. And I am a conscious capitalist. And so, I really believe that there’s a way to do really effective business and be on purpose. So, one of the best ways to have scale impact is to work with those leaders who are going to have impact broadly. So, it’s great if I can help somebody out in the consultation room. But it’s even more effective if I can work with leaders who are going to have a greater reach in the world that they live in.
Maria Ross 07:45
I love that. And you know, we do spend the bulk of our time at work and we do this we are finally finally finally coming to this realization that work impacts life impacts work impacts life, there’s no there’s no concept of separating, you know, your work self from your personal self. I mean, there’s definitely things you would maybe do at home that you wouldn’t do at work. But this idea of having that be completely separate, which is by the way, the premise of the amazingly creepy show severance if you haven’t seen that, Oh, yeah. About people that I’ve mentioned this on another podcast episode. The premise is that there’s this corporation that has implanted a chip in their employees. So when you when you go to work, when you get in the elevator, you completely don’t know anything about your life outside of work. And my goodness, leave you all you know, is that you work there when you leave. You don’t know what you’ve done who your workmates are, they’ve completely separated personal and business.
Dr. Chris Johnson 08:44
Wow, yeah,
Maria Ross 08:46
Creep tastic. But anyway,
Dr. Chris Johnson 08:48
It sounds creep tastic. And you know what, that sounds a lot like what the predominant way of viewing business has been for the last 50 plus years, which is we’ve got to separate these two. And it’s fundamentally impossible. We are not wired that way as humans. No.
Maria Ross 09:04
That’s not how our brains work. That’s not how you know, when we’re emotionally suffering or suffering at home or dealing with a host of challenges. We take that into work with us, and also people that have very stressful, toxic dysfunctional workplaces. Bring that home and do you know, bring it out on their families or their children or their neighbors? And so the two are absolutely intertwined, because it’s still us the common denominators, it’s still us doing those things. They’re just different activities that we do during the day, right? That’s right. I love that you are actually using your powers in the organizational realm your superpowers because like I said, it is just fascinating to me why there’s some psychologists that choose to stay go in one path, and those others that go in another way. And I think, you know, organizational psychology, for lack of a better word is so lack of a better phrase is so important because we need to have that understanding of the dynamics and the relationships and the communication that happens at work where these are not necessarily people we have chosen, correct in this, whatever they are, like you said, whether it’s the PTA, or it’s the, or it’s your workplace, or it’s your, you know, your church or your hobbyist group, they’re not necessarily the people you’re naturally drawn to, or that have everything in common with you, or that have a familial bond with you. And we have to learn how to navigate that. And that’s why I’m so impressed with the idea of empathy and what it can do for just bringing a group of people together to be more productive.
Dr. Chris Johnson 10:43
Yes, I couldn’t agree more. And I think what’s happened over the last two and a half years now with this bloody pandemic, is that we have felt the effects of the isolation, I would say that there’s a mental health crisis, it’s just right at the edge of our awareness, with people not really knowing how to, to reconnect after the pandemic, and people are now going back to work. And if it showed us anything, it showed us many, many things. But one would be the power of empathy, to connect with people right at the edge of what’s really important and how it’s essential every day, and how we work together, whether, again, in all of our workplaces, and then how we bring that home or not. Empathy is really, really critical and will continue to be increasingly critical, because the VUCA world problems are not getting any smaller, anytime soon.
Maria Ross 11:35
Exactly. So why did you choose pause as the key topic of your book for leaders? What have you seen in terms of their response to the word pause?
Speaker X- Dr. Chris Johnson 11:46
Well, that’s those are two separate in totally,
Maria Ross 11:48
Totally, totally interrelated, separate. I do that all the time. Yeah.
Dr. Chris Johnson 11:53
Well, so what was happening? So, as you mentioned, I teach mindfulness, I’ve been doing that for almost 25 years, teaching it formally and informally, in the community and in the organizations that I’ve worked with. And then I also given my history with to entrepreneurial parents, I am one of those hard driving professional people who wants is very ambitious, wants to go places and get things done. And I was seeing people in my office in these courses in the trainings, who are leaders but could not a they couldn’t slow down. And even when they did slow down, they were still ruminating way up in their heads about all this stuff to be done. All that kind of thing. And what I quickly discovered, and they discovered, which was even better, was that once we could pause and really sit with our bodies, these vessels that we use through life, they could start to calm down their psycho biology in such a way that it cleared the chemical toxins, if you want to say, the neural hormones that are about stress, it allowed those to dissipate. So, they could be more clear headed, they felt calmer, they could connect with the people around them, they could actually see a bigger vision. So, we know that when things like adrenaline and cortisol are really, really high, they narrow our focus. And when those dissipate the other stress hormones, like oxytocin can come in and help us to be wanting to connect with other people. And we have more access to our inner resources at that point. So that’s why it’s like the pause. This is really, really simple. But we drive right through it most of the time, most days. And we’re often at the mercy of external stuff, versus I get to choose how I want to show up and I’d like to show up in a more settled, present way with you, whoever you are in my life, my colleagues, my direct report, my boss, etc.
Maria Ross 13:55
Can you describe how mindful pausing is both mental and physical? And why it matters? Because everything that you’re saying is about, there’s so many people that nod their heads and say that’s a great idea. But then when people actually go to pause themselves, it’s it’s often not very successful. And I say this as someone who struggles with it sometimes as like a type A, you know, I think I’m pausing. But I’m not really pausing, right, I think because I’m sitting still, or I don’t have my laptop in front of me. So, talk to us about both the mental and the physical aspect of positive.
Dr. Chris Johnson 14:29
Yeah, I will. And let me just say one thing before I answer that question, because it’s related, you asked like, why do people struggle so much with a pause? I think paws gets a bad rap. Because for those of us who are ambitious and want to go places, and all of that, which is the preponderant view in the marketplace and with professionals today, we think of a pause is I have to stop something. And you I can’t I don’t want to stop because I don’t want to stop the momentum of where I’m going. And so, it’s had a bad rap actually. it, and I write about that in the book like this is kind of how we tend to think of it. So mentally, it’s like, can we open up to well, maybe the pause is actually a really good thing, right. And then there’s this phenomenon, both in breathing and in pausing. Both of those activities, if you will, are both conscious and unconscious. So, I can consciously take a breath, or take a pause. But they also if I’m caught up in what I’m doing today, or I’m on a creative project, I can also go unconscious, and I’ll still breathe, and we still actually take pauses, but we’re not as aware of them. So this idea of, of beginning to pause, and there are different lengths of pausing. But beginning to pause, is about a full body practice. So initially, I have to decide that I want to take on this practice and see what happens. And I encourage people to experiment. So, like if you and I were working together and say, okay, so you think it’s a hard time to pause, you’re probably right, so let’s just practice experimenting with pause. And I would give you some directive about how to practice it and see what happened for you. But it’s physical in that once we start pausing, the opportunity isn’t if we can tune into the physical sensations in the body, and drop from our thinking mind into our felt sense mind and our heart, which is where empathy, when we many say live there, then we can start to feel into ourselves. So, it’s both a mental choice, I’m going to pause and drop out of the thinking, because we get caught up in this monkey mind, and then drop into the body, and the sensations that allows us to start to shift gears. If somebody’s new to pausing, it might take a little bit of practice to actually feel the difference. But once people get a taste of it, it’s like, oh, no, this is much better. So, I led a session yesterday with a big company in downtown Chicago. And we did about a 92nd pause, practice near the end of the day. And I had a couple people say, Oh, my God, I feel like I went got a massage, right? Because it can happen like that quickly. But but it takes a little bit of patience with ourselves. And for those of us who are ambitious, we just want to get it right away. And sometimes it takes a little while.
Maria Ross 17:21
Absolutely. I was just on a virtual summit this morning that started out with some deep breathing and setting intention. And I thought to myself how wonderful it is that used to be so fringe. Yeah, there’s three or five years ago, that would be like, What is this woowoo business thing I’m on?
Dr. Chris Johnson 17:39
That’s right.
Maria Ross 17:40
And I loved that it was we were we were all in? We’re like, Yeah, of course, we need to be present during this virtual Summit. Like, of course, we’re gonna take a few deep breaths and move our bodies a little bit. And, and I just thought, like how, you know, years ago, people would have said that that was just wacky.
Dr. Chris Johnson 17:57
And it wasn’t, it wasn’t that long ago that people would have said It’s wacky just two years ago, you’re absolutely right.
Maria Ross 18:04
No, and I even you know, even in some of my workshops, my brand workshops with clients, you know, if, if things are getting too tense, or things are getting contentious, or even if I just feel people slipping away, you know, I’ll go okay, let’s, let’s just stand up for a second. And let’s take a deep breath. And I know you’re talking about pausing in in much deeper ways. But and that’s perfectly acceptable now, for us to do that in the middle of a business meeting. Whereas before people have been like, what’s going on here?
Dr. Chris Johnson 18:31
Right? That’s right. That’s right. Well, you know what, I think we forget the fact that we are mammals. And as mammals, we need to recalibrate our we need rest and renewal, just like we need to eat and sleep and all of that sort of stuff. And we tend to forget it, we live very much from the neck up. And once we start tuning into why do I have a body and it actually takes a hit from stress if I don’t pay attention to it? And it’s, it’s come into the space a lot more through health and wellness that we now know, like, Oh, this is just good health. It’s not to even mental health, it’s good health, to practice some of this right. So, I’m really glad that it’s showing up in business, because I think it’s going to make a difference in the long haul.
Maria Ross 19:15
Absolutely. And how do you think that pausing benefits leaders, so give us maybe some stories, and some examples of shifts that you’ve seen with leaders that you’ve worked with, where you’ve taught them how to take a pause? And as an addendum because I keep doing this to you? I asked two questions in one. Give us some examples of what pausing looks like I think, again, in theory, people are on board and they’re like, I don’t know what I’m supposed to do. Am I supposed to just when you say pause, am I supposed to just do deep breathing? Am I supposed to go meditate? Am I supposed to put my laptop away? Like What? What? What have you done with your clients where you’ve seen these transformations? What are some little nuggets you can share?
Dr. Chris Johnson 20:00
While all those examples you just gave could be examples of a pause, so I’ll just say that. But what I can say is I think of a guy named Derek, I have permission to use his name. He was worked in environmental company; he was a general manager at the time that I worked with him. And he was, so go, go go, like, let’s get out ahead of this. Let’s work with this. And let’s get every he was a lot of driver kind of energy. And what happened as a result of that is he would get the kind of face on that was like, Oh, I’m really serious. And I’m driving. And he was coming across with his people as abrasive and as pushy, and a little bit of a bully right now sitting down talking to him. That was not where his heart was, and what he valued. But that’s how he was coming across. And so, one of the first things I did was he was telling a story, and talking about how it was going on, not very well out there with his people. And I said, right now, just pause and take a breath. And then I want you to sit back in your seats. And I want you to feel your bum in the seat. And I just want you to put your attention on your breath, at your nose. And that’s all I want you to do is to let yourself breathe, but I want you to feel what it’s like to feel the pause at your breath at your nose. And within about 30 seconds. It’s kind of magical, actually, Maria, within about 30 seconds, his shoulder started to relax. So, his shoulders weren’t up by his ears, you could see him visibly start to relax because his body was a getting more oxygen be he was being intentional. And see he was tuning into sensations that are happening in real time. And when they happen in real time, it’s hard not to be present with that. Right? Right. So, he went on, we worked together. Eventually, we did that practice, I taught him a standing series of pause practices, because he was up and around all the time. And so, I taught him how to actually pause. At some places like the doorknob, or when he went into particular rooms, he would just do a 20 to 32nd Pause recenter go in. And every time we do that kind of reset, it isn’t just mental, it resets our biology. And when it does that, we have again, more access to the resources that all of us bring to the table in the first place. So, what I can say is there are tons of health and wellness benefits, certainly resilience, reducing stress would be another one. But our capacity to focus and direct our attention, our capacity to have mental flexibility, when we’re in conversations with people to regulate our own emotional state. And in fact, I think that’s one of the most important things is learning to pause helps us regulate our emotions. So, whether we’re stressed or irritable, whatever it is, we have more choice, and we can be much more effective there. And then of course, it affects leadership in terms of decision making, strategic thinking all of that. So, I don’t know if that’s enough of an example, I have,
Maria Ross 23:15
oh, my gosh, no, I think it’s great. And I think it’s really a great understanding of both the personal benefit that a leader can experience by pausing. But just listening to your story, I can totally connect the dots and see how his team morale would go up. Oh, yeah, with that, with that kind of shift with that kind of, Oh, I feel like he’s present. I feel like he’s listening to me. I feel like he’s less abrasive than he was yesterday. Yes, those are all good things for getting your team to perform at their optimal level.
Dr. Chris Johnson 23:47
That’s exactly right. And by the end of and we work together almost a year. And by the end, people were coming to him to seek out advice versus kind of, you know, cringing when he would walk by. And so but I mean, that was very palpable. And those were very objective data points for him. It’s like, oh, this really matters. And here’s the thing, it doesn’t cost a lot. It takes the cost of choosing and taking the time to learn some of this. And then building on that kind of like going to the gym, you don’t start with the 50-pound weight, you start with, you know, the smaller weights, you build up. And it made a world of difference. And I have scads of stories that I write about in the book with different pause practices so that folks can take it on and experiment. Maybe this could work for me, right?
Maria Ross 24:33
Yeah, exactly. And also, I like how you brought up the fact that it’s not just about because some people also shy away from this as a leader because it’s like, well, I don’t really care what my people think, and they just need to get their jobs done and done it. But you’ve also focused on the benefits to the leader being able to do their job well to being able to be clear headed enough to make good decisions so they can perform and achieve their goals as an individual leader, you know, there’s there’s, there’s so much goodness there individually and with the group that they’re leading. So, I like that you bring that aspect into it, which is what makes the book so exciting. Can you can you share the important connection between triggers? And a mindful pause?
Dr. Chris Johnson 25:21
Yeah, great question, right. So as human animals, we get triggered all the time. And when I say triggered, I mean that it kind of takes us out of the moment, were caught off guard, and we’re reactive, our biology is reactive, because we need to attend to safety. That’s one of the primary things that we all need as human beings. But then we want to stay connected. And so, if you and I are in a bit of a tiff with each other, you say something to me, and I get triggered, I’m reactive, probably because I either care about you, and or I care about the thing that you’re talking about. And or we share a similar value set. So, when we’re triggered, and this is the cool thing about triggers, triggers are normal, and we ought not try to squash them. What we, what, what we do want to do is learn from that. And so, a trigger as I talked about in the book is actually a way in to learning a lot more about ourselves and the strategies that used to work that ones that got us here, and how to sort through those strategies. So, we can leave the old ones behind, and then take up new practices so we can move forward in our leadership. So, a trigger by pausing, and actually looking at my triggers, what you said to me that I’m reacting to, for example, and if I can tune into my body, touch in with my heart, like, what do I really care about that Maria just said to me, and then I can get more clear headed to like, Oh, she has a good point. I just didn’t like it. But it’s a good point. Or I still think she’s full of beans, but I don’t have to react like a nutcase. Right, I can stay present with her. So, triggers can be really useful to learning about ourselves. And taking a pause allows us the space to do that.
Maria Ross 27:22
I feel like understanding our triggers is one of the like, saviors of human relationships, honestly. Because I, I’ve done in recent years, I’ve really tried to examine my triggers what has made me snap at somebody what has made me what has made my blood start to boil?
Dr. Chris Johnson 27:41
Yeah
Maria Ross 27:41
And being able to take a second to go, this is what I’m feeling physiologically right now. Why is it because of what Chris just said or because of what it reminded me of?
Dr. Chris Johnson 27:54
Great
Maria Ross 27:54
You know, so and it’s so funny. And, you know, I’m not, I don’t want to pretend I’m Zen about it. Like, I still have my triggers and don’t understand them all the time. But my husband and I, just last night, had an argument in front of our eight-year-old. And we actually got into what we actually got into discussion about what actually triggered us with each other. And he was nice. He was listening the whole time; he was sort of giving us knowing looks. And I was like, okay, so it wasn’t what you said it was that I’m triggered by X, Y, and Z. And he was like, well, I understand that. And he’s like, and then I reacted the way I did, because I was triggered by X, Y, and Z. And so, we were actually able to get out of this spiral of sniping at each other, because we actually sat and we said, Hold on a second. Like the reason I did that was not because of what you said, the reason I did that was because it just evokes a pattern for me of something, something something. And so, I’m sorry, I reacted the way I did to that particular case. Now, can we talk about the pattern that has triggered that? Yeah, that reaction, and he did the same with me. And so, it was just really, we didn’t mean to have it in front of our eight-year-old, but it was actually a really good thing we had in front of him because he was sort of watching us and kind of amused and watching us just sort through this back and forth and just come to this conclusion of like, just have a discussion. Like, it wasn’t an argument, it was actually just a discussion about like, well, this makes me feel this way. And this makes me feel that way. And I thought, oh my gosh, if we could just, you know, in my life where things go wrong, if I could just catch my triggers earlier enough.
Dr. Chris Johnson 29:32
That’s exactly right. And I do write about this, this one of these key skills, I think, for all of us, and it’s especially true like with parenting like with you and your husband and having your eight-year-old watch. But it’s true in the boardroom too if I if we can catch ourselves being ourselves, which means that the triggers are about who I have been up until this very moment, and those patterns that you reference, if I can catch myself and have a little bit have grace and some self-compassion, self-empathy with, of course, I have patterns. We all have freaky patterns. Who gets in this? We don’t get through life without having patterns, right? But if I can have my enough grace and self-empathy to say, hey, wait a second. And now let me share it with somebody I care about IE a spouse, and then let’s sort it through, like the world would be a whole different place. I’ll get really skillful there. Right?
Maria Ross 30:25
It would be so much better. And just, you know, hearing you talk about that, let’s bring it back to the work context. That’s what we mean by being a vulnerable leader, we don’t mean that you’re sitting in crying in a corner, that no, that’s the image people have of you show your vulnerability at work? No, it means being able to look at yourself and admit that, you know, you might have had an inappropriate reaction to something or you might be scared about something or you might, you know, dislike something, it’s being honest enough with your team, as a leader to be vulnerable. And that actually creates confidence that that is something that instills confidence in the leader, because they go, Oh, the Our leader is human. And is is being willing to admit that these are areas of growth for them.
Speaker X- Dr. Chris Johnson 31:15
Absolutely. And you probably know the work that they did at Google with Project Aristotle.
Maria Ross 31:20
Absolutely. Talking about all the time. Yeah, it
Speaker X- Dr. Chris Johnson 31:23
Well, it was so critical, right? It’s so important, because the fundamental findings from that body of research that they did and worked on is psychological safety is everything. And can people come to the table and be real and authentic. So, by being able to say, I’m actually human, and I have reactions, I’m triggered by certain things, and I’m going to take accountability for that, and bring it to you as my boss and or as my team. Now we can really start working just like you and your husband did at home, we can start doing that on our teams. And then people rock and roll that it’s not just like teams that are great teams, we can be excellent teams, right? We can do that, and rock and roll and create and move the ball forward down the court in very effective ways.
Maria Ross 32:13
Well, and I think that that’s where I hear you going is that without the pause, we can’t recognize those triggers. We can’t recognize how our body is feeling in the moment, we can’t recognize and reflect on what’s setting us off if we don’t pause, right?
Dr. Chris Johnson 32:31
Yeah, well, and we’re at the mercy of it. And so it’s like, we’re all back to being about four. And we have our temper tantrums. Yeah. And then we wonder why everybody else is upset. And of course, we all grow through that to varying degrees. And sometimes I would say this about triggers where sometimes triggers are very subtle. And so that’s the other thing to be attuned to is like, well, maybe I just get a weird vibe, but with somebody on my team, or I have a weird, keen sense of with my spouse, right? And, and to not assume that we know what that means. So instead of it being good or bad, it’s just like data and information that we can then use to like, okay, I need to call myself a little bit. And then I need to be curious about what’s going on with me, but what’s going on with folks on my team or my family or whatnot. So, triggers can be really subtle, and we want to learn to pay attention to them. Ultimately, if we keep practicing with a pause over time, we end up talking about this sort of keen awareness as intuition, leaders’ intuition. And how do we intuition is that we know stuff without really knowing exactly how we know. And we know it because we’re using our physical bodies as tools to pick up sensations and like, oh, I have a hunch, you know, I’m wondering about this. That’s leadership intuition. And that’s gold. That’s really, really gold. And it’s something we can hone as leaders, just like we can hone it as mother’s intuition, right, or parents’ intuition.
Maria Ross 34:08
Completely and if we’re going, you know, 90 miles an hour, and we don’t pause, learn to recognize exactly those gut reactions. So, I love that. What’s one takeaway from the book that you want every leader to know?
Dr. Chris Johnson 34:23
The one takeaway that I want every leader to know is that it’s simple and it’s worth practicing. The pause is simple. It’s not always easy. And it’s worth practicing because it can turn your relationships with all of your folks at work on a dime, because it reflects our capacity to self-regulate mood. So, pausing in its various forms, and there are various ways and forms and lengths of pause. They’re very simple. They’re not always easy, but they’re definitely worth doing. It will make a difference in your leadership, I promise.
Maria Ross 35:06
I love it. I love it. Well, everyone needs to check out the leadership paws, navigating the future with clarity, focus and empathy. And before we wrap up, I want you to talk about your upcoming course that you have as a companion to the book. Chaos for busy professionals.
Dr. Chris Johnson 35:25
Yes, thanks, Maria. So, this is an eight week course, that will start in September, it’ll be virtual, it’ll start I believe it’s September 20. In the daytime, around lunchtime, central time, noon, and it’s an eight-week course where we explore the moment of time that we’re in as leaders look at mindset and mood, I incorporate some movement. And then we make a roadmap for where you want to go. And in this course, I implement various practices, certainly some of the research, etc. But really teaching people how to pause in such a way that the busyness can calm down. And again, all that clarity can come forward, and then make a roadmap for where people want to go. Because if there’s one thing I’ve heard throughout the last few years, I was hearing it before the pandemic, but especially now, it’s that people are trying to juggle too much, they feel too overwhelmed and too busy. And in fact, that’s a result of not pausing. And so fundamentally, this eight-week course is all about preparing people in eight short weeks with some skills that they can use in the future. They can use them automatically right away, but definitely down into the future. So, calm the chaos for busy professionals, is an ongoing course that I’ll be offering this fall and later into 2023. So, love any of your listeners to come and join me. They can find me at my website, Q4-consulting.com. And you can also email me at Dr. Chris at Q4-consulting.com.
Maria Ross 37:04
Wonderful, you took my last line of how we could get in touch with you and learn more about your work. But I want to I want to thank you so much, Chris, for your time and your insights today. The book sounds amazing. I can’t wait to dig into it. It’s in my my queue for for definitely checking out. And I think if anything, like you said one of the biggest takeaways is that if we really want to build those connections and those relationships and find success, it’s worth taking the pause. It’s worth it. It’s worth slowing down to go faster.
Dr. Chris Johnson 37:36
It is it’s worth slowing down to go faster, and it’s simple. And it’s definitely worth your time to do. So, thanks so much for having me today. I really appreciate it.
Maria Ross 37:46
Thank you, Chris. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. As always share it with your friends, your colleagues, read and review and if you have the opportunity, and until next time please don’t forget that cashflow. Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
Welcome to August Hot Takes! To celebrate the podcast’s 2nd anniversary, we’re shaking things up with some solo episodes from yours truly. I’m answering common questions attendees ask during my keynotes and trainings.
How can I run my business with empathy?
Whether you are part of a billion dollar organization or you are a solopreneur, there are valid business reasons to embrace empathy as part of your business model. And it warms my heart to get this question, as it means that people are finally putting a spotlight on empathy as a way to run a more sustainable, successful business. We want to embrace empathy in how we lead our teams and run our businesses. But we’re not always sure how. Let’s talk about the ways in which you can infuse empathy into your business and reap the rewards.
Thanks for being here and enjoying the podcast. Would love to know what you think of this Hot Takes format.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
Easy ways you can practice empathy at work start with asking questions and being an active listener.
State your common goals out loud – it reminds everyone involved that you’re actually on the same team and want the same things.
Your community is made of real people with needs, desires, goals and aspirations, not numbers, subscribers, or dollar signs.
“It’s very easy to show empathy at work. It’s not as complicated as people think. It just requires self awareness and emotional intelligence.” — Maria Ross
Resources Mentioned:
Client Love: Maria’s digital course on how to nurture the customers you already have so you can attract even more.
Welcome, everyone to the empathy edge podcast. As many of you know, we’re doing something a little bit different this August, and that I’m offering you some solo episodes, called August hot takes on answering the most common questions and comments I get during my keynotes, my trainings, and even over email from people that have really connected with and engaged with the book. This is also an honor of the podcasts second anniversary this month.
So we’re shaking things up a little bit here with the format. And the question I want to tackle today is how can I run my business with empathy? I get this question whether people are part of a billion-dollar organization or they’re just solopreneurs, maybe accountants or designers or consultants who are running their business on their own. And they understand that there are valid business reasons to embracing empathy as part of your business model. For many of you that have read the book and are frequent listeners of this podcast, you know, there’s so many business benefits of empathy, including increased customer loyalty, higher revenues, higher retention, lower attrition, more employee and customer loyalty and engagement. The list goes on and on. But it really warms my heart when I get this question. Because people want to make this real for themselves. They want to run their business or operate within a business in a new way. They want to operate in a more human way, and understand the connections between people, no matter what they’re trying to sell that it all comes down to relationships between people. We want to embrace empathy and how we lead our teams and run our businesses. But we’re not always sure how. So today, let’s talk about a few ways in which you can infuse empathy into your team into your business and reap the rewards. And I’m going to be putting a ton of resources and links in the show notes for you. Because I’ve tackled this topic in various forums and articles. So first, let’s talk about three ways that you can show empathy at work. So, this one applies whether you are working with a larger organization, or you’re like I mentioned a solopreneur. And you’re just collaborating with a lot of partners. And it’s very easy to show empathy at work. It’s not as complicated as people think it really just requires self-awareness, and emotional intelligence. So, three ways that you can practice empathy at work. One is to ask questions and actively listen. So, whether you’re the manager, or you’re just on a team of colleagues, start defaulting from I’m right, and you’re wrong. And instead, ask questions. First, hear the person out, even if you vehemently disagree with them at first, tell me more about your idea. What makes you believe it’s the way to go? How do you see this meeting our goals? What are your goals? If you become a client of ours? What are you trying to achieve with this project? Ask those questions first. Before you start defending your stance, and see where it leads, you allow the other person to feel heard, to feel seen to feel understood. Secondly, find common ground. So, in those high stakes situations, you want to establish a common goal that you both have, however basic so that you can get on the same side of the table, rather than acting like your two opposing forces. So again, once you ask that those questions to find out what their goals are and their intentions, and what they’re looking to achieve, you can now share Oh, it sounds like we both agree that we want this campaign to succeed, or it sounds like we both want you to increase your sales this month by X percent. It’s really great to actually say this out loud, however obvious, it seems because it’s a great way to defuse the tension of a conversation and remind yourselves that you’re both on the same team and this works with colleagues as well as clients. And the third way that you can practice empathy at work is to check in with people. So, before you dive into the business portion of a meeting, take a moment for everyone to ground themselves and share what’s going on for them. For those of you who read my book, you may remember I had a conversation with a CEO, who talked about doing this in their exec team meetings every Monday, they would share how their weekends went, if they had fun if they had a difficult time with their kids, it gave each other context to understand where people were coming from and what they were bringing into that meeting. Remember, we’ve always talked about the fact that you don’t park your humanity at the door, when you walk into the office or the you know, virtual office these days. So, get a little bit of context, maybe someone had a fantastic weekend, maybe somebody got engaged, right, or maybe somebody had a crappy weekend, literally, and was dealing with potty training their kid, the frame of mind that someone is in is what they bring into a meeting or into a group conversation. So, check in with people and stop avoiding assumptions about their mood, about how they’re reacting to ideas, about their tone. And it helps that you understand where people are coming from, from their sense of humanity, because then people that you need to give a little grace to you can, and people who you might have a little bit of trouble helping to focus and concentrate, you can understand that as well. We have to stop making assumptions in the workplace and really get to know each other as people, because that’s how we can perform better and move forward.
Now, those are three ways that you can operate and practice empathy at work, regardless of who you work with. How can we show empathy and our business model? Right? This is a common question I get from entrepreneurs. Number one is that you really want to treat everyone in your community, like a person, not a number, not a dollar sign, not a newsletter subscriber. A lot of people try to collect email addresses like baseball cards. And we really need to remember there is a person with real needs, desires, goals and aspirations behind every list of people that we deal with. So remember that you’re building a community, whether it’s like a user, a user community, whether it’s an online community, or whether it’s just the community of your your customers. People want to share their thoughts and feelings, they it’s it, it helps you to take the time to treat them like a person. Now, that’s not always possible. But can you change, for example, your email auto responder when someone signs up for your email list, and post some questions back to them? And when they reply, reply back, not everyone will reply back. So don’t worry about getting inundated. Can you make a short video to welcome that person, as a new customer or into the community, treat them like people not names to be collected. And I have a link from an article I’m going to link to that has some ideas for you and how you can love on on your people better. Number two is to carve out time to proactively check in with current clients with past clients, surprise some of your email subscribers and welcome them reach out to call a partner you haven’t heard from in a while. You know, it doesn’t take a lot of time or effort if you just carve this into your schedule every week. But it reaps huge rewards. People remember how you treat them, they talk about it to others, they appreciate you. And even if you know you know your customers, or your clients well enough that you know what’s going on in their lives. It’s not just sending them like an automated email on their birthday. But let’s say it’s June and you know your client has a child graduating from high school, send them a quick note, send them a text, that’s all it takes. It’s just carved out that time to proactively check in. And even just if you can spend 15 minutes of your weekly time, you will reap huge rewards from this. And finally, be thoughtful and customize experiences. So, make sure you’re not doing everything so efficiently that it feels like a cold impersonal cookie cutter experience. When can you send a handwritten thank you card? When can you send someone a very thoughtful client appreciation gift that is custom tailored to who they are and what they enjoy? What personal touches can you do with your own clients to show them that you know them and that you care? So, I again will put a link in the show notes to an article about this. And some other ideas. I also offer a course called Client love which helps you love on your exam. stint clients and email subscribers even more than you already do, and offers them a very empathetic personalized experience.
Now, we also want to talk about ways that you can use your business to do good in the world. Now, this is what people often think about when when I talk about empathy as part of your business model. And if you read the book, you know that that is just one of many ways that you can build an empathetic brand. But this is the one people really, really gravitate towards, because I think more and more people are starting businesses that make a difference in the world and make the world a better place. Or more and more people, if you look at all the studies about what Millennials and Gen Z want, from their careers, and from their jobs, is they want a job that makes a difference. So how can you oblige and be a company be a business that is doing good in the world. I have a personal mantra that with great success comes great responsibility. I am not the person that invented that mantra, you’ve probably heard it before. So, these are ways that I have come up with on how to run your business in a way that makes the world a better place. One, you can donate a percentage of profits to a good cause that’s a pretty easy one. When you have a great year, you can use your good fortune to help worthy causes. When you have a so-so year again, it’s just a percentage, so it’s all relative. And this type of social entrepreneurship is getting more and more popular. So, make yourself successful. So, you can then in turn support really great causes. You can do this consistently, by just making a declaration that every dollar you get a certain percentage of it goes to a good cause, you can do a one-to-one model like TOMS Shoes does, or embrace baby warmers, in which when you sell a product, you also give a version of that product to an organization that provides it to people in need, I think Bombus the sock company does this as well. And if you can’t, you know, be in the trenches to donate your time, or you know, join the Peace Corps, you can build a profitable sustainable business and use those profits to support the people who are on the frontlines. Number two, and your business model is to give the gift of giving back. So, I do this every year at the holidays, I don’t send my clients a thank you gift of you know, a mug or a pen or you know, a bottle of wine, what I do is I thank them by allowing them to choose from a selection of what some of my favorite charities and social impact organizations, and I give a gift in their name. So, they remember my brand with respect, they feel good about not cluttering their desk, and the organization that goes to gets the resources to continue it’s good work. So, you can give the gift of giving back to your clients, your partners, your colleagues, or your team members as a reward. Third, as part of your business model, especially if you run your own business, you can take on a pro bono project every year, I used to have a friend that ran a design agency and every quarter, they committed to take on one pro bono community project for a local organization. So they had very deep values in promoting social good, and they walked their talk. And you know, the side bonus was these paid gigs enabled them that you know, the paid gigs, they had enabled them to generously donate their time and talent. And they got great press and PR from very influential people on the boards of these organizations who could then hire them for paid projects. Number four, and how to help your business make the world a better place is to choose your clients wisely. So, no one says you have to serve people or organizations who pollute the environment or people who scam the elderly, or people for whom your values don’t align. Especially if you run your own business, it’s your business, you absolutely have the right and responsibility to define your values, and work only with people or brands who do no harm. And this includes partners, the more that you support, those kinds of organizations, those kinds of clients, those kinds of customers, the more everyone wins, so you have a choice to build that in your business model of I’m not going to take on this specific industry, or I’m not going to take on these types of clients. And you can do that without saying no, by making a very clear statement on your website or in your materials about this is what I stand for. And these are my values. So, if they don’t align for you, we probably shouldn’t work together. It’s perfectly acceptable to sort of put up a here’s why you shouldn’t work with me just as much as saying here’s who should work with me. And number five, which I love mentioning about how to use your business to make the world a better place. It all comes down to you. As an individual. You can act with kindness, empathy and authenticity. You can either choose to do horrible things in your work or do you know, disingenuous marketing, or you can stay truthful and stay true to your own personal values, you can be a model of empathy and how you operate. You can be good to your customers and clients, you can show empathy, you can keep your word, you can be an honest, supportive colleague, you can only control yourself so you can be the example. And by you operating in that way, that is part of your business model that is part of your personal brand. And that’s how you can infuse empathy into everything you do. So, I’d love to hear from you on other questions or ideas you have related to how to infuse more empathy and your business model and how to run your business with empathy, how to lead your team with empathy, please DM me on Instagram, red slice Maria, or you can find me on LinkedIn as always. And if you’re not already a part of my email tribe, I hope you will subscribe at the empathy edge.com Where you won’t miss a podcast episode. So, until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Thanks, have a great day and be kind.
Welcome to August Hot Takes! To celebrate the podcast’s 2nd anniversary, we’re shaking things up with some solo episodes from yours truly. I’m answering common questions attendees ask during my keynotes and trainings.
Will one empathy workshop fix our culture?
Empathy is like a marathon or any other skill you master over time. You need to train for it. Building up an empathy practice with a sustained curriculum and processes is the way to change behaviors. But you have to make systemic changes to reward and model empathy and show that “this is how we do things around here.”
Thanks for being here and enjoying the podcast. Would love to know what you think of this Hot Takes format.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
Empathy as a skill and as a culture is built over time with practice and engagement.
Building an empathetic culture starts with your hiring process.
Creating transformational change takes time and effort. It is not a one and done workshop.
“While one workshop is a great start, if empathy is lacking in your organization, it’s a marathon, not a sprint.” — Maria Ross
Hi, everyone, welcome to our final August hot take special format we’re doing this month just to celebrate the podcast second anniversary. We’re shaking things up and doing some solo episodes this month. Hope you’re enjoying them. I would love to hear your feedback. Good, bad or ugly. So let me know DM me at Red slice Maria. Let me know if you like these solo episodes. And if you want me to do more, if you want me to do one a month, if you want me to never do them again, let me know. I’m answering some common questions I get from attendees during my workshops and trainings from people who email me or message me through LinkedIn or DM me through Instagram. And I wanted to address this very important question. And I’m especially talking to larger organizations, but even organizations of 10 or 20 people organizations that tend to bring me in to do a Keynote or do an empathy training with either their leadership team or their entire company.
The question is, will one empathy workshop fix our culture? And I know you probably know what the answer is to this. But I wish it were that easy. I wish you could bring me in to do one virtual workshop or live workshop. I know it’s an amazing experience, and people love it. But it doesn’t mean all of your issues around retention, around engagement, around just playing how your people are interacting with and treating each other. It won’t make all of those issues magically disappear. If I could do that for you with one workshop, I’d be charging you a million dollars for it. But the truth is, while one workshop is a great start, because you are showing a commitment to your company, to your people, that this is important, and we need to talk about it. So, I don’t want to let that go by, we need to understand that if empathy is lacking in your organization, if that is a culture problem. It’s a marathon. It’s not a sprint. It’s just like any other skill that you have to master over time, you need to train for it. You need to build up that empathy practice with possibly a sustained curriculum that is ongoing that touches on other facets of emotional intelligence, and leadership, and high performing teams, and psychological safety. And all of the ancillary branches that come off of empathy, when we talk about improving our culture, and bringing more humanity back into the workplace. There are so many wonderful speakers, teachers, trainers, that talk about these different facets. And if this is something that your company is really committed to if you are committed to improving the culture, because you want to improve performance, you want to boost the bottom line, you want to build your brand and reputation and inspire crazy customer loyalty. Then I am happy to talk to you and help you build that curriculum of which my workshop is just one one component. I am happy to share the love and guide you on some other people and trainers and organizations that I know that are doing phenomenal work. And you know some of them that bring in leadership development, some of them that bring in boosting relationships at work, some of them that bring in obviously diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging to improving your culture of which empathy is an input to that I did a wonderful interview with Mike O’Brien about narrative intelligence. And he talked about the fact that empathy is an input and diversity and inclusion is an output when you boost empathy within your culture. So, you also have to do some heavy thinking and heavy analysis of your organization’s processes, your organization’s policies, your reward structures, your hiring practices, it’s got to be a full journey of how you’re going to create a more empathetic culture. And it starts with the hiring process, not only who you hire, but what is that process like for a new recruit? Is it empathetic? Is it inclusive? Are you communicating clearly with people? Are you getting back to them in a timely manner? Are you being respectful of their time, those are all actions that you take every day without thinking about them that either show or don’t show a culture of empathy. And I did another wonderful podcast episode with Anne Latham, who is the queen of clarity about the fact that clarity is empathetic. When you are very clear with people you are being respectful European kind, you’re being empathetic. So, you want to look at also the rewards structures in your organization. Talking about empathy is one thing. acting on it is another are people hired, fired, promoted, bonused, based on how they exhibit empathy in the organization? Have you sat down and said what are the actions that we are looking for that show we are being an empathetic organization? Are those actions being measured? Are they being acknowledged? Whether through group acknowledgment, email acknowledgement, rewards that you offer every year or every month? How are you promoting, modeling, acknowledging and rewarding empathy in your organization? And this also includes parting ways with people in the organization no matter how good they are at their job? Are they toxic rockstars? Are they people that flout the rules of empathy and respect? Do they treat people badly? Do they lead with fear? Are they not collaborative? Are they not communicative? Are they just plain difficult to work with in terms of people feeling like they are seen, heard and valued by those leaders or by those colleagues? Putting up with someone in the organization that erodes empathy is just as bad as not promoting empathy in your culture at all? So are you willing to take a stand and let go of someone who is causing disruption in the ranks, I have often talked about this and said, those, those toxic rockstars in your organization, if your company lives or dies, by them being part of the organization, you have a larger problem, if they’re the only ones that can make your organization successful, and you cannot bear to fire them or counsel them or do anything to adapt their behavior. Are you willing to deal with the consequences of the team environment that you create? Are you willing to deal with the, with the disengagement that that causes from all your other high performers? So many leaders I know, talk tough. And then when it comes to these difficult people, they just turn a blind eye, it’s just easier for them to not have a conflict with that person and let that person wreak havoc. So, you’ve got to look at things like your rewards. You’re like I said, your your policies, your processes, your hiring process, your your welcome process, how do you welcome new hires? Is that an empathetic experience for them? What is your customer experience like? Is it empathetic at every stage of the journey? So, creating a more empathetic culture is not unfortunately going to be solved by one dynamic workshop that I deliver for you, which again, I’m happy to do. But I would love if that was part of a larger curriculum and an ongoing effort to truly examine and evolve the other touchpoints within the organization that impact you having an empathetic culture.
So, are you willing to be in it for the long haul? Do you truly want to create transformational change in your culture? If so, call me, email me. Let’s build a curriculum together based on your goals. I know lots of other organizations that can help you. And even if my workshop is not a good fit for you, that’s totally cool. I’d rather help you transform your culture and create a thriving workplace for the people that are there. Whether you hire me to speak or not, that is part of my mission in this world. And it’s it’s my strong belief that you can do good with your business just by doing right by your people. Like you don’t have to be. You can sell software, you can sell widgets, you can sell things that maybe you’re like, that’s not really making the world a better place. Hopefully it is. Hopefully it’s making lives easier for people. And it solves a problem that people have. But one of the biggest ways that you can make an impact in the world is to create a workplace where the humans that come to work for you every day, can thrive and be their best selves, can treat each other with respect, can collaborate effectively can innovate, can think creatively, can face challenges they never thought themselves capable of facing. What a wonderful gift you are giving to the world, if you can create a workplace like that. That’s noble, that’s kind, that’s remembering that no matter what product or service your company or your business offers, it’s still run by people, people who have a motions, people who have dreams, people who have an innate human desire to be seen, heard and valued. So definitely give me a call. Let’s let’s kick things off with a really interactive and dynamic empathy workshops, empathy workshop for your leaders on how to strengthen their own empathy. We can do another workshop on you know how to create a more empathetic culture and how to create an empathetic brand. But like I said, I have so many resources to share with you of gifted thought leaders and experts who are much more expert in their domains. That will also augment your goal of creating a more empathetic, high performing innovative culture that wins in the marketplace. So I hope you will take me up on that. You can find me on LinkedIn as you know Maria J. Ross, or you can ping me on Instagram. I hope you are following me on Instagram Red slice Maria. And please make sure that you are signed up for my email list. I do not spam, I try to offer value, what someone wants called practical business insights with an inspirational chaser. If that sounds like your cup of tea, please join my email tribe. And you will never miss a podcast episode as well. So let me know your thoughts on this August hot tea. What is your company doing to create a more empathetic culture? What methods have you tried that maybe haven’t succeeded? What are you doing in terms of systemic changes in like I mentioned your reward your policies, your practices, your rituals, even to create a more empathetic customer experience and a customer culture and an empathetic internal culture. I would love to hear your highs and lows. I’d love to hear your successes. So, ping me again at Red slice Maria on Instagram or find me on LinkedIn. Those are the best ways to get in touch with me. And again, don’t forget to sign up for the email list. You can sign up at theempathyedge.com. Thank you so much for this fun August hot take journey. Again, I’d love to know what you think about the format and if you want me to continue to do some solo episodes, or do you prefer to hear other voices besides mine on the regular. Take care and until next time. Remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.
Welcome to August Hot Takes! To celebrate the podcast’s 2nd anniversary, we’re shaking things up with some solo episodes from yours truly. I’m answering common questions attendees ask during my keynotes and trainings.
This week: Why is active listening so hard?
Thanks for being here and enjoying the podcast. Would love to know what you think of this Hot Takes format.
Key Takeaways:
Active listening is not a natural skill to master. It is more complicated than basic listening.
As much as you are able, taking notes during a conversation will allow you to better listen to what is being said, not allowing your mind to wander afar.
Repeat back and validate what the other person is saying. This doesn’t mean you agree with what they are saying.
“If you find it difficult to actively listen, just know you’re not alone. And know, it is an exercise, it is a muscle you can isolate and strengthen just like empathy.” — Maria Ross
