Courageous empathy. Yep – it takes courage and strength to break existing leadership paradigms and embrace empathy in our world today. We don’t acknowledge that often enough. Embracing empathy as a leader is as much a self-development exercise as it is a leadership style! Today I speak with Sanela Lukanovic about courageous empathy, how the identity of empathy gets in the way of embracing it at the top, how it can be used against you, and how to practice empathy while avoiding burnout by starting with self-compassion.
Sanela shares how her knack for coaching difficult people without blocking change can enable you to deal with the person rather than the problem. And why we sometimes swing too far between polar opposite paradigms of cold dictatorship and submissive chaos before we can land on what works right for us.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Be brave enough to be the type of leader that is required in our workplaces and our world.
- You must set boundaries around empathy. If you don’t, you are risking burnout, people-pleasing, and submission in your leadership. You don’t want to wall yourself off, but you don’t want to be walked all over either.
- Boundaries allow you to see and allow a back and forth (like over a fence). Barriers impede progress.
“It takes a lot of courage to sit across from somebody and be open and willing to hear their perspective.” — Sanela Lukanovic
Episode References:
- The Daring Greatly Programme, based on research by Dr. Brené Brown: selfdom.life/daring-greatly
The Empathy Edge podcast episodes:
- Daina Middleton: How to Do Layoffs with Humanity, Inclusion, and Compassion
- M.E. Hart: How to Have Honest Conversations at Work
From Our Partner:
SparkEffect partners with organizations to unlock the full potential of their greatest asset: their people. Through their tailored assessments and expert coaching at every level, SparkEffect helps organizations manage change, sustain growth, and chart a path to a brighter future.
Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.
About Sanela Lukanovic: Transformational Coach and Daring Way™ Facilitator
Sanela Lukanovic is a Transformational Coach and founder of Selfdom. With over two decades of experience, Sanela empowers individuals to lead with authenticity, purpose, and courage. She is a public speaker, thought leader, and expert in coaching women leaders to overcome unique challenges and create value-aligned change.
Using somatic and neuroscience tools, Sanela helps clients achieve holistic personal growth. Her impactful talks and group programs focus on building courage, empathy as a shame resilience tool, perfectionism, boundaries, and self-compassion.
Her background in management consulting and cross-sector experience in leadership development enrich her coaching approach.
Connect with Sanela:
Selfdom: selfdom.life
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sanela-lukanovic-682927
Instagram: instagram.com/selfdom_life
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books
Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Courageous empathy. Yep, it takes courage and strength to break existing leadership paradigms and embrace empathy in our world today, we don’t acknowledge that often enough, embracing empathy as a leader is as much a self development exercise as it is, a leadership style. Today, I speak with Sanela Lukanovic about courageous empathy, how the identity of empathy gets in the way of embracing it at the top, how it can be used against you, and how to practice empathy while avoiding burnout by starting with self compassion. Sunela is a transformational coach and founder of self done with over two decades of experience. Sanela empowers individuals to lead with authenticity, purpose and courage. She’s a public speaker, thought leader and expert in coaching women leaders to overcome unique challenges and create value aligned change using somatic and neuroscience tools. She helps clients achieve holistic personal growth. Her impactful talks and group programs focus on building courage, empathy as a shame, resilience tool, perfectionism, boundaries and self compassion. Her background in management consulting and cross sector experience in leadership development enrich her coaching approach. And today, she shares it with us. She shares how her knack for coaching difficult people without blocking change can enable you to deal with the person rather than the problem, and why we sometimes swing too far between polar opposite paradigms of cold dictatorship or submissive chaos before we can land on a leadership style that works right for us. This was a really interesting conversation. Take a listen. Welcome Sanela to the empathy edge Podcast. I’m so excited to have you here to talk about leading with authenticity and purpose. So welcome to the show.
Sanela Lukanovic 02:36
Thank you so much for having me. So tell
Maria Ross 02:39
us a little bit about you and how you got into this work of being a transformational coach and helping leaders tap into their authenticity and overcome challenges.
Sanela Lukanovic 02:52
I came into it via my first career was in consulting, in management consulting, in people transformation. But I think I knew when I was 15 that my real passion and my curiosity was always about people and people transformation and what makes people tick, and why people around me were behaving in strange and fabulous ways that I couldn’t understand, I think. But I took a scenic route to get into coaching, because my parents were keen to for me to do economics and have a proper job other than do psychology. And, you know, do what I’m doing now, I guess. So, yeah, but kind of transition slowly from doing people and people change within big transformational project. I had a knack for dealing with difficult people and kind of getting people to embrace change and understanding what actually blocks that change within the bigger systems. And then when I back in 2004 I discovered that there is this thing as coaching. And then I jumped a bit. That was my chance to kind of get back on a train, or catch the train. That was more, you know, to who I am and what I want to do, but I came into courage work, which is what I’m currently doing and what I’m passionate about through by being stuck myself in sort of that feeling that I wasn’t daring enough in my life and not daring enough in my business. And then I came across Brene work, Brene Brown on vulnerability and shame and resilience. And I was like, Yes, I want more of that, and that’s how I, you know, started my personal development through that, and now that forms the majority of my work. So
Maria Ross 04:49
I’m so curious, what kinds of people do you work with, and what are the challenges they’re bringing to you? How are they articulating what the problem is, or what the challenge?
Sanela Lukanovic 05:01
Challenges. So I work mostly with leaders within the organizations and also entrepreneurs. So the type of challenges that, because I’m a transformational coach, which is essentially means that I deal with the person, but then the problem so I get people who already feel that what has got them and got them, the success that they’ve achieved at to that point in their lives is no longer working. So they would, I mean, they present in very different ways, but most of the time is, you know, I want to be more daring. I want to I want more confidence. I want more peace in my head. There is something about being more present to and kind of not feeling torn and constantly plagued by doubt and self criticism I get. I work a lot with perfectionism, which is one of the biggest blockers to courage, as you know. So, yeah, you know, people want to be connected with their teams. They want to lead with authenticity. They want to be better leaders to maybe leaders that they’ve had and experienced. So those are the kind of people I love working but the key for me is the person feels that, that push, that what I’ve done so far, I no longer want, you know, that kind of coping strategy. I no longer want that, you know, I want to step into myself, into my most authentic self. I love what
Maria Ross 06:38
you’re saying, because what I’m getting from this also, is this way of looking at empathy that I hadn’t thought about before, that it is an act of bravery. It’s an act of daring to be an empathetic leader. And I know this, and this is why I write my books and I do my talks and I do my leadership trainings, but I don’t think I’ve ever articulated it that way in terms of sometimes I have of be brave enough to be the type of leader that’s required right now in our world and in our workplaces, but it is an act of daring to be more people centric than you have been, and this is where I actually have empathy for those in my generation and older who sort of came up with different rules to get to success, And now we’re telling them a bunch of different roles. We’re saying, you know, way back when it was command and control, it was don’t ever admit you don’t know, it was don’t get work is work and personal is personal. And now we’re saying, No, get to know everybody. Care about people. Be vulnerable, be transparent. And I have empathy for those leaders who are like, wait what? Like I thought for 30 years, I’ve been doing it this way, and that sounds great, but that sounds scary at the same time. So how can you talk a little bit more about especially as it relates to empathy, as it relates to and I always like to say empathy is not crying on the floor with your employees. It’s just trying to see someone else’s point of view, right? So what Given that, what do you feel gets in the way of leaders at the top embracing empathy? Is it the myths that I talk about? Is it something within themselves? What do you see as some of the biggest barriers for them? I
Sanela Lukanovic 08:20
love, absolutely love how you’re connecting empathy and bearing, because it takes a lot of courage to sit across to somebody and be open and willing to hear that perspective. Yep, because there’s a lot of risk, there is a lot of uncertainty, there’s lots of emotions, you know, to handle your emotions, to handle the other person’s emotions, to connect with something in you that knows something about the struggle that they are in, and also to keep yourself out and focus on the other person. So that takes a lot of courage. So I love that brain. Yeah, you’ve just done that. That is that really resonates with me. I talk
Maria Ross 09:01
about it in terms of, you know, empathy is actually a strength, because it requires strength to be able to take on someone else’s point of view without defensiveness or fear. So I love it. It’s all about daring. Yeah. So what do you think gets in their way? What do you hear from your top performing leaders?
Sanela Lukanovic 09:18
So what gets in a way? I think both things, what you’ve just mentioned, the external perception about empathy that we have to reframe. And I mean people, what I love about your work, that you are actually speaking to, that your books, you’re actually educating and reframing this concept that, well, empathy is a weakness, or the empathy is soft. So there is that perception, outside perception and expectations or associations around empathy, but there is also inside their skills and level of self awareness and level of self presence that is required to. Actually do empathy effectively. So I kind of see them on both, you know, both are required, and that’s where my work comes in, and that’s where, you know, education also is is invaluable, because it’s going to take some time for those myths to be addressed. So from the outside, like if I look at the you know, empathy is a weakness. As you know what you’re talking in your books, it’s so much easier. This is the kind of the paradox. It is so much easier to do command and control. And often time when we talk about empathy, people will say, well, it’s going to take a lot of time. It takes so much time, exactly, yeah, so much time. And, or, you know, it’s kind of also like, when we talk about it, people kind of get this sense that you are, you’re kind of constantly embracing every single conversation from that place of empathy. And I have to kind of say, well, you know, no, it’s like, you don’t do anything. 24/7, it’s a, I see empathy is something that you allow yourself to develop. It’s one of the tools, a very, very, very valuable tool that you deploy and tap into and access when you need it. So, yeah, so it’s that sense of that. It is a weakness. It’s not it takes a lot of courage to be in a difficult conversation where I have to hear your point of view, or I have to communicate something that is hard for me to tell you, maybe I need to lay you off, maybe I need to give you a performance feedback. And what scares people in those conversation, what I find, and I think sometimes we just hide between, you know, behind this, you know, it’s a weakness. What really scares people is, oftentimes it’s like, how you’re going to react to this, how am I going to hold this space? How am I going to be able to manage myself, and then, what is the outcome? How am I going to control the outcome? And I think we get bogged down in that noise and forgetting that actually empathy is all about connection. Is about coming from that place of kindness and connection and holding, also the, you know, being very clear about the outcomes that you need to achieve from whatever situation. So the book I often find having to explain to people that actually, they’re not binary. It’s not like, you know, you’re either empathetic or you achieve results I often have this
Maria Ross 12:37
is, this is my mantra, yeah, this is the whole thing about my work, is that it’s not binary decision. It’s not either or leadership. It’s empathy and high performance, empathy and ambition, empathy and accountability. And I 100% agree with you the work that I’m doing is that we have more of us have to be out there, reframing and educating on what empathy actually is at work, and that it’s not just emotional empathy, it’s cognitive empathy, it’s the way you have conversations, it’s the benefits you offer, it’s how you do a difficult performance review. It’s not just changing your mind to make other people happy, and I think that’s what so many of them get caught in that trap about empathy. You know being about people pleasing, they fall into submission, which I wanted to get into that with you is what advice or habits do you have to offer around people who struggle with setting the boundaries around empathy, because we know it leads to burnout. It leads to something that isn’t empathy. It leads to people pleasing or submission. So do you have any advice or tips that you can share that have worked for your clients, and maybe some stories to share about how you get past that and how you can set those boundaries? So you’re not completely walling yourself off, but you’re being very clear about your boundaries. Yeah, beautiful.
Sanela Lukanovic 14:05
The metaphor that I’m seeing about walling yourself off versus having boundaries, and I had a conversation with my client today about that same thing. So often time people who embrace so, people who already embrace empathy, then it’s very hard to I find that there needs to be a transition where empathy is not the only thing. So I find it the it’s most difficult for people to set boundaries, who identify, who kind of have an idea of who they are that is linked to empathy. So I’m empathic, empathetic or empathic leader, and that means absence of something else. That means absence of ability to say no. It means absence of having to hold somebody. Accountable. It means it kind of that whole idea, the ideal identity around that gets so it really so that’s one of the thing. First thing that I would do is really under Help them understand what does that mean in to kind of try to uncover what are the beliefs and expectations that have sneaked in there that are preventing them from actually being kind and being considered, being understanding, but at the same time having boundaries. So that’s the first thing that I would look at, that kind of ideal leader that they want to do. And in there, a lot of thing can be cleared out and sort of just it can be brought to their awareness, and they can say, well, that doesn’t really make sense. The other thing is, I think people boundaries is something that people generally have kind of visceral kind of reaction to them, and it goes oftentime, it goes back to their experience of boundaries as a child, or experience of boundaries in general. So there is, I often try to identify if people are moving away so like that, contrary to, like, you know, I had strong, you know, a boss who was, you know, so boundary that, like, you know, that it made their life really difficult. And, or they had a parent who was like that, and they’re trying to be the opposite of that. So we are trying to get the first thing is to kind of try to define that for yourself, a clear those things that no longer those perceptions that no longer serve you. So instead of having, you know, it’s a wall, how about is a fence around the garden that you populate with your values and that you have do’s and don’ts about like, you know, when you enter my garden, when you enter my place, these are the ways to behave in this space, so that both of you, both of us, can feel safe and good in this space. And that is what boundaries about. So really reframing how we see boundaries and then practicing really taking the small steps. So today’s for example conversation. The whole conversation was about, can I be, you know, when I’m kind and generous and when I’m empathetic and really putting myself out and for my clients, I am valued, I’m respected. People love, you know, love what I do, and that is what gives me, you know, fills my cup. And if I stop doing, if I put boundaries, that means that I’m going to put boundaries and not allow for that to come into my life. So unpacking that is super, super important that actually you can be, you can have that, but you also need to learn how to show up in a way when you feel that somebody is misusing your generosity, right? So those are the kind of, I don’t know if there are tips, but that’s the kind of work, the approaches, yeah, the approach that needs to happen, but it is really around reframing and letting go of whatever experiences you’ve had with boundaries that are keeping you stuck in kind of one dimensional way of being or behaving in a given context.
Maria Ross 18:17
This is so great because it’s making me think of a couple of episodes that I’ll put links to in the show notes. I did an episode on how to do layoffs with compassion, and also another episode on how to have honest conversations. And this comes up over and over again, and I usually love citing my sources, but I can’t remember who or where I heard this in recent weeks. It may have been a conference I attended last week, but it was understanding the notion between boundaries and barriers, and that boundaries allow me to see and allow me allow a back and forth, like you said your fence metaphor, barriers don’t allow any progress that impedes progress. And so looking at, are you really setting a boundary, or are you putting up a barrier, and if you’re putting up a barrier, why is it out of fear? Is it out of I don’t want to show my vulnerability. I don’t want to show that I don’t have all the answers. Or are you creating a boundary that is just something you want to clearly communicate? I talk about in the new book The Empathy dilemma. I talk about boundaries, setting boundaries, articulating your boundaries, is actually an act of self care, but it’s also an act of clarity. It’s in the clarity pillar too, because I want to be very clear and so what, what I have found helpful is giving people some example scripts. So one of them is an example of you have an employee who is coming into your office at 10 till four in the afternoon on the Tuesdays that you always leave early to go to your son’s soccer game and they are upset about something. They’re angry about something, they want to talk about an interpersonal issue they’re having with another person on the team. You have two choices. You can lose your boundary and just sit and listen. Which is, is might be appropriate, depending on where the person is. But you can also kindly acknowledge the person with empathy and say this is clearly really important to you, which means it’s important to me. But as you know, I have to leave early on Tuesdays for my son. So what I would like to do is I’m going to clear some time tomorrow morning. Let’s talk tomorrow morning. You’ll have some time to digest. You can send me an email in advance of that conversation if you want to, but I’m going to clear an hour for you tomorrow morning so we can actually talk about it. That is an empathetic way to keep your boundary but still acknowledge someone else’s pain or suffering or frustration or anger and see and value them that you’re going to make time for them tomorrow, like no one’s going to die tonight, right? So yes, I think that that’s like, when people hear that, they go, Oh, wow, I can communicate in that way, yeah. And they don’t realize that that’s actually empathy, right? So I really find that giving people those scripts and reminding myself of those scripts, quite honestly, of like this, is really important. I’ve done this when I’ve had to move meetings or and I just go, hey, you know what? I this is really important to me, and I’m all over the place this afternoon. I know we were going to meet and talk about X, but I really want to focus on what you have to say. So can we schedule a different time? Absolutely, you’re honoring them. You’re honoring you like and that’s where I feel like we get that boundaries don’t have to be a wall. Boundaries can just mean like, I loved your metaphor of the garden. I can still see the garden. I can still appreciate the garden. Lets me talk over the fence with you, but
Sanela Lukanovic 21:41
and I can invite you in, this is the thing like, you know, I invite you in. There’s just rules of do’s and don’ts, you know, this is how I want you to treat me. This is how I treat I’m treating you. These are the values that I cannot step over, etcetera. So there is something about Clari I really appreciate you making and it’s really clear that communicating with empathy, it’s CLA it’s communicating with clarity. Often times, what gets in the way I find is that when we we think that we are empathetic or empathic with somebody, by trying to dilute the message that yes, that we actually want to say yes. You know those kind of situations where we tiptoe around it, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we’ll be kind of buried in the middle of we start a meeting. And here I am to tell you some you know about, you know, meeting that went wrong. And I talk about, you know, five minutes about your work that you’ve done, like, you know, last week, and then you’re a very valued employee, and, you know, I really appreciate you. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And all the time you are waiting you know that something is coming, but a I am kind of freaking you out, and I am losing courage to actually speak clearly about what needs to be spoken about. So there is something about where we are trying to be kind, where I would say being nice for this kind of thinking, that is this in service of empathy. But actually that is not that Absolutely. It just kills trust. It makes people, people’s nervous systems go on guard, and it really and I think we often do that, not for the sake of the other person, for our own comfort. We do that for our own comfort. So going back to your question about what is the thing that really stops or prevents people tapping into sympathy is our own self awareness and our own ability to our awareness and connection to our own emotions and our emotional literacy, our ability to regulate our emotions in those moments of, you know, when we are vulnerable. Yeah, and this is, you know, telling you something that kind of might upset you, feels vulnerable to me, right? It’s vulnerable to you. So it’s really, really, one of the I kind of feel that both needs to be together, like, yes, empathy, boundaries, emotional resilience, or emotional regulation, regulation and understanding, being present to that in yourself at all times. Yeah, yeah,
Maria Ross 24:18
sorry. Well, and that’s, that’s why, you know The first pillar in the new book is self awareness. What are my strengths? What are my emotional triggers? What am I bringing to the interaction that could get in the way of a positive interaction with this person, or new ideas or new innovations? We are not many of us are walking through life blind to what we bring to the table, whether it’s bad habits or whether it’s energy we bring, or even just how we can leverage our strengths in certain situations, right? So I think that’s so important, because that’s where you know, when I was hearing a lot and doing a lot of research around people burning out as. Especially post pandemic, because of everything they’d done, they bent over backwards for their employees during the pandemic, which was great, and we don’t want to go back, you know, we created a different paradigm for workplace culture, and it already was starting. It’s just the pandemic accelerated. It we don’t want to lose the progress we’ve made and the momentum we’ve made however. We do need to go back a little bit to Okay. We need to help set people’s expectations about there was a time when everything was 100% flexible. We’re not in that time anymore, and I know that’s really hard, but we need to pull back on certain things. You know, for our particular company, we might need to come back to the office two days a week or three days a week. I have other opinions about return to office, but the point is, you’ve got to make whatever business decisions for your business that you’re going to make, and then clearly communicate that, but recognize that it might be hard for people, and even just in that delivery of I know this might not be what you want. I know that this might be hard for you. We’re doing it. So what? How can we support you through this thing that is going to happen, whether you’re happy about it or not? Yeah, yeah. So I think that’s so important, and at that to your point, that’s so hard, where we tiptoe around those things. And I am one of those people that I get really impatient when someone’s not clear, and I will actually go, Well, so what is it? What’s your point? What’s your What are you trying to say?
Sanela Lukanovic 26:29
Just get me out of my misery. Now. You
Maria Ross 26:33
don’t want them to come out. Like, okay, come into my office. So you’re being fired today. I mean, you don’t want, I love the term, like, radical candor is great, but I heard the term from an executive at VaynerMedia that said we actually call it kind candor, because we don’t get an excuse to be a jerk just because we’re telling Oh yes, right, yes.
Sanela Lukanovic 26:51
People go, Well, I’m just being honest, right? Yeah, oh gosh, that’s the yeah
Maria Ross 26:56
and so yeah, I think to your point, and I’m trying not to talk so much over you, but this idea of where sometimes the advice, depending on the person, can swing the pendulum too far the other way, right? So you give that advice of, like, we need to be direct, we need to be, you know, confident. We need to be. And then with a certain type of person, it falls into, I’m being a total jerk in this conversation. How do you help your leaders balance that? How do you help them balance like, Nope, there’s a nuance to that. There’s a nuance to this. How do you help them through that? Is it trial and error, or is it just preparing them from a self awareness standpoint, I think when
Sanela Lukanovic 27:39
we are embrace my experience when we’re embracing a new skill. If somebody has come from a place of lot of control, perfectionism, really disconnected with their own emotional experience of things, so it’s very hard to connect with other people. They haven’t done it. I always say you’re going to swing, you know, to do something, to learn something, you you have to kind of swing and maybe push through on the other end to to find your own way of doing things. And empathy is one of those things that you know, we can’t do perfectly all the time. And that’s another that’s one permission that I give myself. It is not about, you know, saying the right things. People often worry about saying the right things, you know, reacting the right way, not messing it up. And my advice is, you’re going to mess it up. You’re not going to say the right thing. Just accept that, because we are humans, and empathy something that goes two ways, like, you know, empathy, essentially, is connection. I think, you know, if we, if you forget about, you know, how we call these things, you know, am I in connection, human to human? Can I hold that? Can I open myself to that and then have a conversation with you. So I think that really helps to people too. I love that, you know, you know, I say, like, you know, my job is to listen with empathy, and I can sometimes, you know, that’s my job. Like, you know, and I teach that, and I get it wrong, yeah. Like, you know, sometimes, you know, my kids will say something, and my mama bear comes first, you know, whether it’s to save or to say something that you know, to kind of lift the mood by saying, well, it’s not that bad, like, you know something. And then I hear myself saying, I was like, Yeah, take it back. Take it back. Take it back.
Maria Ross 29:36
It’s sort of like when you teach someone just basic business skills as an example, right? And we’ve all seen the comedic moment of you tell someone to have a firm handshake, and then they shake someone’s hands so hard, it’s like they go overboard, because they’re someone told them this was the skill to build. And so I love that idea of, like, preparing people that you might swing the. Pendulum a little too far and so, but hopefully you get back, you get some feedback, and you are able to adjust it to a place that benefits both of you and moves the conversation closer to your goals. But I love that idea of giving permission, and you know, I often talk about this in terms of the empathy gym, and strengthening that muscle is that, first of all, you can’t just build it and stop it will atrophy again. But also, you know, if it’s new for you, if it’s new for you to ask questions, for example, you know, we advise about curiosity, if it’s new for you to ask your team members or your colleagues questions and get curious. It’s gonna feel you’re gonna feel sore, just like you would in a new workout routine. It’s gonna feel awkward. Your muscle memory is not really working. But I also talk to them about, when we talk about vulnerability, it’s not just about, you know, being a puddle on the floor and letting it all hang out. You can be like we talked about vulnerably confident, and say, Hey, this is something I’m working on. And so it might, you know, if you’re looking at me funny, why? Why? I’m actually asking everybody how their weekend went? I’m actually working on my empathy, because I understand that empathy will help our team drive better performance and engagement. So I’m working on it, and I’m not going to get it right. Yes, I would love your feedback on that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, absolutely,
Sanela Lukanovic 31:28
absolutely. And kind of getting engaging other people into that and being transparent. That’s really huge moment of vulnerability and transparency. Yeah, so that you know, people can help you out you’re mentioning about this muscle, empathy muscle. I believe that managing and practicing self compassion, which is the empathy towards ourselves, self empathy, self empathy, yeah, is I find what. That’s where I would start clients and select this, you can always work on this uh huh, because and the more you work on self compassion and exercising that muscle, then it’s going to be easier for you to connect with other people as well, right? Because what I find people who are extremely self critical, whilst they can be empathized with people who are not directly linked to their work or themselves, they can kind of they have understanding that somebody in purchasing has made, made a mistake, or something like blah, blah, blah, however, when that person comes to their team and Now their work is direct representation of them that lack of self compassion, if they’re very, you know, have a lot tolerance for mistakes and failures of any description, they’re gonna struggle to empathize with and be allowing for that to happen with that person. So I always say, like if you are practicing empathy also practice self compassion. Because what Yes, the more you have of one, the more you have of
Maria Ross 33:07
the other. I think that’s so valuable, because you also hold other people to the standard you hold yourself. And I know the things that really irk me about other actions are the ones that I get mad at myself at the most, like if I’m late, or if I misspell something, or I’m very critical, and I find that it’s that lens that I use when other people are making those same mistakes, right? I make all kinds of judgments. I make all kinds of assumptions. And when you learn to sort of let it go a little bit for yourself, it’s easier for you to understand, wow, that happens to other people too.
Sanela Lukanovic 33:50
Yes, yeah, yes, absolutely, and the moment. So in that exam, I would just add that we are we need to acknowledge that actually making that mistake, like, you know, I really care. I really care not to make a spelling mistake. I really care, you know, this is important to me. So when that happens, there is a moment of compassion that says, Wow, I really know how hard you know how much you care for this. And this really bugs you. There is a moment of, I see you, yeah, that we can do it for ourselves. So then when a colleague does that, yeah, we can kind of say, Yes, I see you. I, you know, yes, made a mistake. And then once you because that is the moment of connection to self. And then I can, I acknowledge that, and then I can go into, alright, so what, what can I learn from this? You know, did I Was that too fast? Was I, you know, do I maybe need somebody to proofread after me? Like, you know, I can problem solve after that, but I go to that after I have a moment of what I call I see. Moment, it’s okay, I see you. Yeah, I don’t need to kind of convince myself that I don’t care about it. This is what my clients struggle with. Like, you know, there’s something when we start being empathetic to other people or compassionate to ourselves, we get into this. I don’t know. I really, honestly don’t know why it happens, but there is a sense of, oh, I have to forgive myself everything, and I have to be accepting of everything, and therefore I have to be understanding and accepting of other people’s action. But empathy is not about, you know, I unconditionally accept your behavior, right? I unconditionally I accept that you’re underperforming. Yeah, exactly, yeah. No, it definitely not. So there is something around, you know, part of my work often kind of comes to that place of, okay, now, how do you do that? How can you just bring another team member? I often talk about this. You just need. You have this empathetic person who, and, you know, who comes and connect and understands, and then you have this other person who can talk about accountability. So yeah. So we need to understand that we are multi dimensional and multi multi, multi skilled, really, yeah,
Maria Ross 36:10
absolutely, yeah. So as we wrap up any final words of wisdom around what courageous empathy looks like, what we can do to achieve it? Oh, I love that courageous empathy.
Sanela Lukanovic 36:31
I would say the most courageous thing that we can do when being in any relationship with another person is to be congruent, to be constantly present to what is true for us. Because when we have certain emotions and certain things happening in our body and we are not 100% aligned, it doesn’t really matter what we say, and this is where we kind of do the right things we you know, quote unquote, yeah, quote unquote. We do the right things, we say the right thing, but we feel that disconnection. Why do we feel that? Because we we are, we are not aligned within so my biggest advice or courageous work is to be in touch with that and be truthful to yourself, so that you can be clear then and talk from that place, rather than kind of doing performative empathy. I love
Maria Ross 37:40
it, and you have a program to help leaders dare greatly. So we will put the link to that in the show notes, based on the work of Dr Brene Brown. We’ll also put all your links in the show notes. This has been so wonderful and so many great insights, and I know people listening are going to want to learn more about you and more about your work. And as I said, I’ll put all the links in the show notes. But for anyone who’s on the go right now or exercising, where’s the best place that they can find out more about you?
Sanela Lukanovic 38:09
Self, Dom dot, life, self, Dom dot, life, life, self, life, correct? So that’s yeah, they can find me there. Wonderful, All
Maria Ross 38:20
right, wonderful. Well, Sanela, thank you so much for your time and your insights today. It was wonderful to connect. Thank you so much for having me and thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Please rate, review and share with a friend or a colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
