In a world racing toward smarter machines, empathy speakers and authors Rob Volpe and Maria Ross get curious in this limited subseries about what only humans can feel, do, and be — and why that’s our greatest competitive advantage. Enjoy this limited subseries here on The Empathy Edge.
Self-Awareness, Consciousness & the Brain That Knows Itself
What does it mean to be aware that you exist? In this first episode of the What Does It Mean to Be Human? subseries, Maria Ross and Rob Volpe dig into one of the most profound and surprisingly unsettled questions in science and philosophy: what makes human consciousness distinct from every other species on the planet — and why does that question matter more urgently now than ever before?
From the evolutionary leap of the prefrontal cortex, to Jane Goodall and Dian Fossey’s field evidence of chimp and gorilla emotional lives, to Michael Pollan’s exploration of “the hard problem” of consciousness, Maria and Rob explore the idea that humans aren’t running a different program than other animals — we’re running a souped-up version of largely the same one. And yet something tipped. Something made us capable of recursive self-awareness: knowing that we exist, wondering why, and imagining how others see us. What was that tipping point? And can any technology ever cross it?
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
“People interact with AI as though there is a human behind it, because it communicates, and I think that’s part of the danger that we’re running into.” — Rob Volpe
Episode References:
- Jane Goodall Institute: Now We Must Redefine Man, or Accept Chimpanzees as Humans? https://news.janegoodall.org/2019/07/24/now-we-must-redefine-man-or-accept-chimpanzees-ashumans/
- PNAS Study on Human vs. Chimp Brain Connectivity: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1818512116
- The Conversation: What Makes the Human Brain Unique? https://theconversation.com/what-makes-the-human-brain-unique-we-compared-it-with-monkeys-and-apes-to-find-out-252331
- Michael Pollan: A World Appears: A Journey into Consciousness https://michaelpollan.com/books/a-world-appears/
- The AI Doc: Or How I Became an Apocaloptimist: https://www.focusfeatures.com/the-ai-doc-or-how-i-became-an-apocaloptimist
- The Confessions by Paul Bradley Carr: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Confessions/Paul-Bradley-Carr/9781668074411
About Maria Ross and Rob Volpe:
Maria Ross:
Maria Ross is a speaker, author, empathy strategist, and host of The Empathy Edge podcast, now in its sixth year. She believes cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™, and has spent decades helping leaders balance empathy with accountability to drive better results, stronger teams, and lasting impact. She is the author of four books, including the award-winning The Empathy Dilemma, a Forbes.com contributor on Workplace Empathy, and creator of two LinkedIn Learning empathy courses. Her work has been featured on NPR, MSNBC, Inc., and Fast Company, and she has spoken for TEDx, The 3% Conference, SIM Women, BlogHer, and organizations such as Google, Salesforce, TBWA/Worldwide, Stanford, and New York Life. A brain aneurysm survivor whose recovery deepened her understanding of empathy at its most human, she lives in Northern California with her husband, son, rescue Bully named Bean, seven chickens, and a gecko named Harold.
About Rob Volpe:
Rob Volpe is the Founder/CEO of Empathy Activist and the creator of The 5 Steps to Empathy, which he chronicles in his award-winning book Tell Me More About That: Solving the Empathy Crisis One Conversation at a Time. He is a recognized thought leader, speaker, and consultant in the improvement of communication and collaboration in organizations of all sizes in all industries. He is a graduate of Syracuse University’s S.I. Newhouse School of Public Communications and lives in San Francisco with his husband and 3 cats. Learn more at his website: www.robvolpe.expert or follow on Instagram @Empathy_Activist.
Connect with Rob Volpe:
Website: robvolpe.expert
Book: Tell Me More About That: Solving the Empathy Crisis One Conversation
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/rmvolpe
Facebook: facebook.com/EmpathyActivist
Instagram: instagram.com/empathy_activist
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books: Red-Slice.com/books
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Courses! Leading with Empathy and Balancing Empathy, Accountability, and Results as a Leader
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Maria Ross 00:03
Maria, welcome to the Empathy Edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator, and empathy advocate, and here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Welcome to a little experiment, my dear listeners. Welcome to a sub series that we’re going to be doing here on the Empathy Edge podcast to talk about the very complex question of what does it mean to be human, and joining me in this six part experimental sub series is my good friend Rob Volpe. Rob, welcome,
Rob Volpe 01:07
Maria. I feel like I should be very like we’re doing a little experiment. I feel like I should be strumming my fingers together and going.
Maria Ross 01:14
We are, and you may know Rob from his empathy work and his best-selling book, and the fact that he was on this podcast before, but you already know me, so I’m going to give Rob a quick moment here to introduce himself and talk about his amazing work,
Rob Volpe 01:32
so yes, I’m the empathy activist Rob Volpe, author of “Tell Me More About That: Solving the Empathy Crisis One Conversation at a time, and my works is sits adjacent, I think, Maria to yours, and at least when I talk about us, you know, I really got into helping people understand how to be empathetic, like the barriers to overcome, and that led to the five steps to empathy, and so that’s what I write about, speak, talk, think, you know, around how empathy shows up in so many different ways in our life, but all based on that dismantling judgment, asking good questions, and all the things,
Maria Ross 02:09
all the things, and yeah, what I love about your work is you come at it from a customer insights background of running a customer experience, customer insights agency, and the various and crazy experiences you had interviewing people in their homes at different conferences in different venues and learning how to tap into your empathy, so that you could have conversations with these wildly diverse people who were not like you, but your job wasn’t necessarily to agree with them or convince them of anything, your job was to document their perspective for your clients, so you hands on were practicing empathy day after day after day as part of your business, so that’s what I love when you bring that lens to it, but your work is so applicable, whether it’s empathy at work, empathy in your relationships, empathy with your neighbors, with your community. So that’s why you’ve always been a kindred spirit for me.
Rob Volpe 03:07
Thank you, Maria. Nothing will challenge your ability to have empathy like meeting strangers, and yet nothing enriches your life like spending time with and connecting with other people, strangers or friends and family, so yeah, it’s good work, it’s hard work, but it’s worth it. And empathy, and we’ll, we’ll be talking about it during this limited series, but empathy is a feature of being human, it’s not a flaw,
Maria Ross 03:33
right?
Rob Volpe 03:33
Yet society, we’ve been trained that it’s this flaw, yeah, that’s not the case. So let’s find that superpower and turn it on.
Maria Ross 03:42
Right, I love that phrase. It’s a feature, not a bug.
Rob Volpe 03:45
Yeah,
Maria Ross 03:45
so yeah, so as I mentioned, we’re going to be talking in this six part series about the various facets of what does it mean to be human. And today on episode one, we want to talk about the aware animal awareness, self awareness, consciousness, and the brain that knows itself. And what we’re going to explore a little bit today is what does it mean to be aware that you exist, and are there degrees of awareness across species, or is that in itself uniquely human? So, let’s talk about it. Rob, I
Rob Volpe 04:19
was Michael Pollan’s been doing some work on consciousness. His latest book is about consciousness, and he, through some of the psychedelic journeys he’s been on, and the research, other research, more traditional, maybe research he’s been doing, found that he realized there is sentience amongst all living things, including my cat Solitaire, that’s come in to say hi. I don’t know if you can hear her or not.
Maria Ross 04:46
I cannot. We cannot.
Rob Volpe 04:48
Oh, okay. Good. So she is very vocal in this moment, letting me know probably that she ate lunch. She likes to come forward, and quite timely, actually, because. As I’ve been thinking about consciousness and self-awareness, I do think about often we have three cats, and I think about the cats, and like, are they obviously they’re sentient, they realize that they’re alive, but do they have self-awareness? Is their consciousness kind of going in there, and what does that even mean,
Maria Ross 05:20
right?
Rob Volpe 05:20
And what’s one of the things Michael Pollan found and talks about in his book and the interviews is, you know, there’s this sentience, which is the sort of lights are on, if you would, and he said even like plants have sentience, they react to different stimuli if they’re, you know, harvested, cut in some ways, there is some sort of reaction, but then consciousness gets into that self-awareness and that emotional state that we’re able to achieve.
Maria Ross 05:51
Yeah, I love that. And you know, we should mention that the whole reason this thought for doing this experiment came to be was because we are living in the age of AI, and you and I both have done a lot of research and a lot of talking out there about leading with human skills in the age of AI as a competitive advantage, and so when you look at technology that is trying to mimic human interactions, if it’s able to do that successfully in some cases, then what is it? What is the magic or the secret sauce that makes us human? And you know, this is episode one, so we’re just talking a little bit about consciousness and self-awareness, but we’re going to be exploring all these different facets of, could it be this, could it be that, and I love that you chose to start with that idea of other types of life have elements of awareness, but maybe not the awareness we’re thinking about, and I was doing some research on Diane Fossey and her work with the chimpanzees on Jane Goodall and her work with the gorillas, I believe, and what came out was this theme of the fact that especially when it comes to chimpanzees that we have very, very similar brains as humans to chimpanzees, and the phrase that kept coming up was that we have the same instrument, but we as humans just have greater range, and the analogy that came up with with this was it’s like the same instrument being played with greater complexity and more connectivity, we have an expanded range of capabilities. For example, and the analogy I came up with, and I actually asked AI about, is this a valid analogy, and they said yes, was an acoustic guitar versus the same guitar with professional grade amplifiers, effects pedals, a full mixing board behind it. It’s the same instrument, but it’s radically expanded range and output, and just, you know, taking that one species of millions, you know, chimpanzees, as an example, we as humans have all this other complexity that enables us to do all these different things, but again, that’s what we’re going to be exploring is what are those different things that make it so special, because Jane Goodall’s research, for example, showed that you know animals have this mother child bond, they can have empathy, they can feel loss or grief, and so you and I did a little bit of an experiment pre this conversation where we were asking people what does it mean to be human to you, and having emotions came up a lot from people, and even having empathy or experiencing loss, but it turns out that’s not what makes us uniquely human. So, what do you think about that?
Rob Volpe 08:36
Well, yeah, it’s funny, I asked my, I had a session with my energy healer yesterday, Kirsten Marie.
Maria Ross 08:43
I love that you have an energy healer. That’s course, you’re so San Francisco, and I love it.
Rob Volpe 08:49
Yeah, she’s up in Sausalito. We love us, and I was asking her for her thoughts on it, and she said, you know, the thing that makes us human is our capacity to love. In her perspective, that is the thing that we are able to have love, and you know, then I’m like, okay, well, yeah, but what about those?
Maria Ross 09:08
What about the mother-child bonding, right? Yeah,
Rob Volpe 09:10
The mother-child bonding, that’s happening, and maybe there is that parental child relationship, but is there across mates, particularly, you know, because I’m like the two penguins that like huddle up in the Antarctic and protect the egg, like, are they in love or is this what they need to do in order to survive, right? And even though they’re bonded, I think it’s an interesting question. I don’t have an answer to that,
Maria Ross 09:37
right,
Rob Volpe 09:38
but I could see where you could say no, that isn’t romantic love in the way that we’re able to experience that, because some of that is about the survival
Maria Ross 09:48
or instinct, right?
Rob Volpe 09:50
Yes, yes, the mother child instinct,
Maria Ross 09:53
right,
Rob Volpe 09:54
might be there. Let’s get Jane Goodall on the phone,
Maria Ross 09:58
I know, I know.
Rob Volpe 09:59
Yeah
Maria Ross 10:00
rip. Well, I loved this quote that I found in my research, and I think we’re going to talk about this in a future episode, about the, you know, what do you do as a, what does it mean as a species to know your time is limited, or to know that you’re going to die?
Rob Volpe 10:13
Oh, yeah,
Maria Ross 10:14
and understand, we’re going to talk about this idea of time binding, bounding, whatever, within that we’re able to do as humans that you know, I don’t think my dog, my dog, I know my dog doesn’t remember what happened an hour ago, right? Or he doesn’t remember, and she’s not going to look forward to what’s going on in the future, necessarily. She’s very in the moment, but we think about past, present, and future, we think about different states of time. But I loved this, this quote that I found, which was that, for example, the chimps know they exist, so just being aware of your existence and yourself isn’t enough to be uniquely human. But it said they probably don’t lie awake wondering if they’re living up to their potential, and it’s true.
Rob Volpe 10:57
Banana off the tree, I know
Maria Ross 10:59
I’m not, I’m not ambitious enough to want that last banana, right? If only I would apply myself, but you know,
Rob Volpe 11:07
so being human is being in your head a lot.
Maria Ross 11:12
I mean, is it or is it not? And then what’s up there, like you know,
Rob Volpe 11:17
they don’t like.. I don’t know how much we know, you know, like we generally have an understanding, you know, a little more about the brain and its functions, thenI do, but I think there’s a lot of things that are intangible, or that are missing, or we haven’t quite figured out how it all exactly works, like they mapped out what parts of the brain do what, we know where in the brain empathy shows up, for example.
Maria Ross 11:43
Tell us,tell us where it shows up.
Rob Volpe 11:46
Oh God, no, don’t, don’t quiz me. Okay,
Maria Ross 11:49
I won’t quiz you. I won’t
Rob Volpe 11:50
do you. Can you? I
Maria Ross 11:51
don’t know. I was, I was legitimately asking. It’s
Rob Volpe 11:54
the limbic something or another system. And I apologize to Helen Reese and to Jamil Zaki, neuroscientist that first identified it, but if you look it up, maybe while I’m waxing poetic,
Maria Ross 12:06
yeah, go for it.
Rob Volpe 12:07
But anyway, consciousness seems like, where in the world does self-awareness come from? Then what part of our brain is lighting up when you’re suddenly like, I think, therefore I am?
Maria Ross 12:17
Yeah,
Rob Volpe 12:18
you know,
Maria Ross 12:19
yeah, I have it for you.
Rob Volpe 12:22
Okay
Maria Ross 12:23
The most recent study firmly establishes that the anterior insular cortex is where the feeling of empathy originates.
Rob Volpe 12:29
It was on the tip of my tongue.
Maria Ross 12:31
I know it was. I know it was. I could see you like anterior something,
Rob Volpe 12:36
anterior insular cortex.
Maria Ross 12:39
Yes, yes, I love it.
Rob Volpe 12:42
So, okay, so there’s this whole idea of self, so we’re talking about consciousness as a possible defining characteristic, and self-awareness is part of that sense of consciousness, and yet there’s some data out there that says only like 15 to 20% of people are actually self aware, and maybe it’s in a different sort of plane. Yes, I talked about self awareness a lot. Like, I think you have to be self aware to, if you’re going to change how you’re showing up in the world to have more empathy with people, you got to be self aware.
Maria Ross 13:18
First pillar of the five pillars of effects of an empathetic leadership is, but I think that’s an interesting discussion, because we, we define self-awareness not just as, oh, I’m here and I’m in time and space relative to other people, we’re all well, and some people lack that as well, I might add, but this idea of self-awareness of our own strengths, challenges, weaknesses, triggers, like all of that, is also an aspect of self-awareness.
Rob Volpe 13:47
Yes,
Maria Ross 13:49
that the ant or the rabbit probably don’t have, right?
Rob Volpe 13:52
Yeah, right, right, like I mean, you’ve, you’re more of a dog person, right?
Maria Ross 13:57
Yeah, but you’re a cat person, they’re all good.
Rob Volpe 13:59
I’m a cat person, it’s okay. No, it is, but they like, they think you ever catch them looking in the mirror, or like when you put them in front of a mirror, like if you’re holding the cats.
Maria Ross 14:10
No, but
Rob Volpe 14:10
But they kind of look at it.
Maria Ross 14:11
But some animals have done that, where they’ll, they’ll look in the mirror and bark at it, thinking it’s a different dog. But they’ve done some science. I came across this when I was doing research for this episode, and I wish I’d flagged it, because I kind of just glossed over it. There’s studies that have been done where it was like putting an animal in front of a mirror and making a mark on their face and seeing if they understand, like when you look in the mirror and you see something on your cheek, you know, you go like this and know it’s you that you’re looking at. There are some animals that have done that when they look in the mirror and see that they go like this, and I don’t know if they’re mimicking or mirroring,
Rob Volpe 14:47
right,
Maria Ross 14:47
literally mirroring, right, mirroring what they see, or is it that I know that that’s me and that’s something on my face, so yeah,
Rob Volpe 14:56
okay, so we’ve got this whole like self aware. Awarenessy thing, but we can’t. I don’t know. I guess we could say, if you’re not self-aware, you are not human,
Maria Ross 15:08
but we know enough people in this world that are not – they are indeed human beings by definition, right?
Rob Volpe 15:15
Yeah, exactly
Maria Ross 15:17
right. And so that’s what I mean, is it the self, is it the physical biological self awareness of I’m here in this space, or is it self awareness in the other way that you and I talk about it when we talk about empathetic activity, empathetic leadership, all the things.
Rob Volpe 15:32
Right, right, right, right. I have to think it’s the self awareness of, oh, I see myself in the mirror, therefore, like I know,
Maria Ross 15:40
yeah,
Rob Volpe 15:40
I know I exist.
Maria Ross 15:42
Yeah,
Rob Volpe 15:42
versus the paying attention to the narration in your head,
Maria Ross 15:46
right. Well, here’s a, here’s, let me riddle you this. This also, this idea of self-awareness from the perspective of impact on others. So, if we look at behavior, for example, we look at, you know, I say something to you that’s hurtful, and I see your reaction. Hopefully, I am aware enough to know that that reaction is not a good one, and that my I have impacted you in a negative way. Right? Yes. Do, and other species have that, where I’m able to see the impact of my actions on you, and then course correct or apologize or change my behavior,
Rob Volpe 16:25
or they just continue to go in for the kill,
Maria Ross 16:27
exactly.
Rob Volpe 16:28
Yeah, which would be usually inhumane, but again, we know plenty of people that behave or know of people who behave that way and are human beings,
Maria Ross 16:39
right?
Rob Volpe 16:40
That’s interesting again, like, because, but there’s also then you’re getting into instinct,
Maria Ross 16:47
yeah,
Rob Volpe 16:47
and how you know, so if I think, oh, out on the savanna in Africa, there animals are going after each other, the cat in the wild that’s going after the gazelle is going for the kill, because that’s instinct,
Maria Ross 17:03
right?
Rob Volpe 17:04
What it has to do, it’s not like a Disney cartoon,
Maria Ross 17:06
where they’re gonna lock eyes, yeah, just go get out of here, you know, because all of a sudden he develops a conscience, right, and this is our problem with the joy and the downside of personifying animals and plant life and fish and all the things that they do in the Disney movie.
Rob Volpe 17:25
Totally, let’s, let’s take that, though, and let’s turn this idea around. So, what if what would it mean if we discovered that there was other consciousness on this planet in the universe, like that was one of the things was coming up with Michael, the Michael Pollan work, he’s like, we’re at the brink of this sort of, they call it a Copernican moment, like with a Copernicus, and the world isn’t the earth isn’t the only thing, it actually revolves, we’re not right universe, and suddenly, what happens if, when we discover or realize that we’re not the only species, life that truly has consciousness,
Maria Ross 18:15
right? Right?
Rob Volpe 18:17
Does that, how does that change our way of thinking? It seemingly defeats the notion that, oh, consciousness is what makes us human,
Maria Ross 18:28
right? Right, because then that’s, you know, that’s the scenario of the dolphin uprising, right? Because I mean, you know, I joke, but I don’t know a lot about the science and the biology behind this, but they’ve discovered this around, you know, dolphins as well, and aquatic life, marine life. There was something you found that you shared with me around this idea of consciousness is not necessarily intelligence or information processing, which I think is an important thing to bring up, because what is consciousness? Be again, being conscious that you’re here, or being conscious of cause and effect,
Rob Volpe 19:05
yeah,
Maria Ross 19:05
impact, your place in the world, your dreams, your goals, like, is that all in consciousness? So it’s not necessarily just information processing,
Rob Volpe 19:16
no, and it’s the emotional piece of it, though, and the way that we’re, you know, if you go back to what we were talking about with the gorillas and the chimpanzees, there’s this idea that, like, oh, our social complexity, the way that we’ve developed as a society has set us apart from that, and they do have social structure and community.
Maria Ross 19:42
Oh, yeah,
Rob Volpe 19:43
but we’ve certainly taken it to this whole other level.
Maria Ross 19:48
Yeah,
Rob Volpe 19:49
maybe if they got TikTok, it would change their way of viewing the world,
Maria Ross 19:53
right? Right,
Rob Volpe 19:55
but yeah, there’s.. is there this other piece to it beyond the. The awareness is that the emotion is it the love of those other kind of elements that are turning our brains on or the consciousness on, because it may not necessarily just live in our brain,
Maria Ross 20:12
right. Well, and that I think that’s what you’re getting to is this idea of just because AI can be aware and it can process information and it can even feign emotional response.
Rob Volpe 20:26
You want me to get on that. We’re going, we’re gonna go. Let me climb up on that soap box.
Maria Ross 20:31
Yeah, exactly. I’m gonna let you do that in a second, because I want to hear, I want to hear your diatribe on that, because it’s this idea of like, but there isn’t any context behind it. There’s no AI. Doesn’t have a lived experience to draw on. It doesn’t have the ability to see the impact of its output on your psyche, on your mood, on your psychology, on your sense of self. It doesn’t have the ability to do that. And yet, when we are person to person, for the most part, we should have the ability to do that. We should have the ability to trade information and give information, and then see the impact of that information physically, emotionally, psychologically, on the person in front of us.
Rob Volpe 21:19
We have a shared thank you for bringing all this up. We have a shared language, if you will, which is the three-dimensional world that we live in, and so you could meet somebody far, you know, from a completely different culture on the other side of the planet, and they would still have similar reference points. The language might be a little different, but they might understand what the warmth of the sun on your face feels like, or splashing water on your face. AI exists in a cloud somewhere, and it’s not even really a cloud, it’s bits of data, and so, yeah, anything that AI is telling you, it’s, it is telling you because it’s been told to tell you that it’s been programmed to give you all of that information, and so it’s, it’s performative,
Maria Ross 22:10
right?
Rob Volpe 22:10
It is performative empathy when it’s saying, “Oh, that’s.. I understand where you’re coming from. No, it doesn’t.
Maria Ross 22:19
Yeah
Rob Volpe 22:19
It doesn’t. I picked up a chat with AI earlier with Claude earlier today from three months ago, and it, and it’s like, wow, we’ve done a lot of work this morning, and I’m like, it’s one in the afternoon, and it’s three months later, like I’ve brushed my teeth and changed my clothes at least once since I had this first discussion,
Maria Ross 22:42
yeah,
Rob Volpe 22:43
but that this is the thing, and I think that’s a problem. People interact with AI as though there is a human behind it, because it communicates, and I think that’s part of the danger that we’re running into, is we’re facing that, oh, it’s, it is just like us, when no, it isn’t. I find when I’m using it, even to collaborate on a new copy of my newsletter, a new edition of my newsletter, or a talk or something, it will come up with suggestions that at first glance makes sense, but then when I really read it, I’m like, wait, this isn’t grounded in reality,
Maria Ross 23:18
right?
Rob Volpe 23:19
Because it doesn’t exist in reality, it doesn’t understand, truly understand what our reality is,
Maria Ross 23:25
right?
Rob Volpe 23:26
That said, we’re working on AGI, general artificial general intelligence, like there is some sort of like consciousness thing that they’re working on, and I think we’re going to be really surprised.
Maria Ross 23:42
That sounds so scary.
Rob Volpe 23:44
It does. It does. I think we’re going to be really surprised, because we’re emotionally based creatures, like everything that we do. The instincts are all emotional. It’s about survival, ultimately, but it’s about all the emotions, and then our brains rationalize and keep us in making good decisions. Hopefully, the rational brain is working with the emotional core. AI doesn’t have an emotional core, it’s just got the rational brain, so it’s going to continue to do things rationally, think rationally, right, I make decisions based just on logic,
Maria Ross 24:25
right,
Rob Volpe 24:26
and like that’s not how we make decisions, and that compassion is not logical.
Maria Ross 24:32
No, it is not
Rob Volpe 24:33
in all cases.
Maria Ross 24:34
I think it’s worth pointing out that there are people out there, and I’ve worked in tech for a long time, and there’s people out there who are very data driven, who truly believe that they only make decisions based on logic and not on emotion. And my work as a brand strategist showed me all the research, you know, you came from marketing insights. We actually buy based on emotion, we justify it with logic. Like even the most analytical, data-driven, non-touchy-feely person, because, as I always say, if that were true, the whole field of behavioral economics would not exist, because people do not make purely rational decisions, and so, where in that perspective is there room for the person who says, well, I truly believe that I weigh options and I choose the logical option, and yet I’m still human. What’s the..
Rob Volpe 25:31
I was gonna say that, they’re on the planet Vulcan
Maria Ross 25:35
say that again.
Rob Volpe 25:36
I said, well, they’re actually on the planet Vulcan, Star Trek reference,
Maria Ross 25:40
right? And Spock eventually developed, you know, conscience and all that.
Rob Volpe 25:44
And He’s half human, and he’s got, yeah,
Maria Ross 25:45
And he’s got all the things, but yeah. So, what do we.. what’s the answer to people like that that say no? I think AI is great because AI makes decisions just like me, besides the laughter,
Rob Volpe 26:01
just wait. There are a lot of decisions that we’re making that probably have a little bit more rational thinking, or you know, it’s a need. I’m hungry,
Maria Ross 26:15
right?
Rob Volpe 26:16
But even in the decision of, you know, I guess AI would say, well, you should get something to eat, but it’s going to ask you, well, what do you want to eat, and that gets into the emotional, what are you craving, what are you, you know, nest, are you feeling something, therefore you want a certain thing,
Maria Ross 26:31
right,
Rob Volpe 26:31
but there are people that are functional eaters, and I have moments where I’m like, I have, I do these protein shakes, they’re not that tasty, but they do the job, and I, and it doesn’t matter, it’s functional eating, so in that case, that’s a functional, a little bit more rational, more rational than emotional,
Maria Ross 26:53
yeah,
Rob Volpe 26:53
but there’s still some emotion in there, like, you know, I still chose the chocolate flavor because I like chocolate, and so that helps make it more palatable,
Maria Ross 27:03
right? Right. Or I had a really bad day at work today, and I’m going to eat that whole chocolate bar because it will comfort me.
Rob Volpe 27:11
Exactly, exactly. And so great, you want AI to be making these decisions because you’re more of a rational thinker or decision maker, and you may lean – some people do lean more into the rational side, and they suppress the emotional piece of it, and then others are the other way, just tons of nuances out there. Do you want something that is solely capable of rational logic, thinking, making decisions for you that may not just be what should I have to eat tonight, like should you exist,
Maria Ross 27:50
right? Right,
Rob Volpe 27:52
that’s at that higher level, where everything with AGI, right, where everything is going. There’s a documentary, not sure, I haven’t seen it on the streamers yet, but it’s called the AI Doc.
Maria Ross 28:04
Oh yeah,
Rob Volpe 28:05
the AI doc, or how I learned to stop being an apocalyptomist, and they interviewed a lot of the leaders in AI today, and it’s really, it’s worthwhile, but one of the people interviewed was like, oh, you know, AGI, so people talk about AI at two different levels. They talk about the LLMs, which is Claude and ChatGPT, and all the things, and that’s all predictive based on all the words that have ever come before. So that’s what we’re calling lowest common denominator. Yes,
Maria Ross 28:34
it’s pattern recognition,
Rob Volpe 28:36
exactly.
Maria Ross 28:37
Yeah,
Rob Volpe 28:38
based on all the words that have come before, I’m going to tell you what, the next word is going to be
Maria Ross 28:42
right,
Rob Volpe 28:42
but then there’s AGI, which is the general intelligence, that’s the one that’s like going to be its own kind of life and
Maria Ross 28:49
generative AI, yeah,
Rob Volpe 28:51
generative, it’s thinking on its own,
Maria Ross 28:53
right, it’s actually detecting anomalies and looking for that, and that’s where applications like what they call empathic AI. I interviewed a woman from the company Juji, that they develop empathic AI solutions that are not about pattern recognition, but are about sensing the anomalies, or even sensing tone, and they’re being used in applications like counseling college students or international college students on courses of study or within healthcare to help people understand their directives and their instructions and their medical options, right? In a way that’s not if-then, it’s but it has to be. There’s got to be something in the algorithm that’s saying you need to know what to do next based on a piece of information,
Rob Volpe 29:46
right.
Maria Ross 29:47
So I just find that I find it fascinating. I find it interesting that, again, a lot of it is being used for very noble causes, like helping lonely seniors with companionship, for example, or helping. Severely autistic children learn social skills in a safe environment, and feel like they do have a friend, they do have someone who’s listening, quote unquote, to them, and it’s helping boost their confidence and boost their social skills for real-world situations.
Rob Volpe 30:17
Yeah,
Maria Ross 30:17
and that’s where you know you get into the whole AI for good versus AI being used for evil, and I love how both sides talk about it’s not replacing humans, but then we get back to the whole reason for our sub series, which is well, then what does it mean to be human,
Rob Volpe 30:37
right? What’s going to be left if AI can do…?
Maria Ross 30:40
Yeah,
Rob Volpe 30:41
yes. there’s this interesting thing happening right now, I’m noticing where there’s a stronger desire to connect, a few different people have been writing and talking about,
Maria Ross 30:53
oh yes,
Rob Volpe 30:53
like the in-person connection piece is getting really strong, because I think we’re spending so much time, and we haven’t for a long time, but we’ve been spending so much time with tech, social media, the tools, but now AI as well, and it’s still just not all the way there.
Maria Ross 31:12
No, no, and that’s also also a backlash from the younger generation as well, who’s who are actually like, no, we’re going to connect offline, yeah, and get together, which, good on them, like I’m glad they’re they’re taking that step, but
Rob Volpe 31:25
Gen Z really will save us.
Maria Ross 31:26
I know, I know, I hope so. And
Rob Volpe 31:30
can I finish that thought?
Maria Ross 31:31
Yes, go for it.
Rob Volpe 31:32
So, the thing with, in the documentary, one of the people talked about, and she was more talking about the general intelligence, the AGI, and she said, “Oh, we’re going to be like ants to the way ants are to us, we will be to AI, and like we’re kind of harmless. And I was like, “Yeah, we’re harmless until we’ve come into their house, or you know, ants are harmless until they ruin our picnic. And then what do we do?
Maria Ross 32:01
Yeah, we stomp, yeah,
Rob Volpe 32:02
we stomp on them. So I just, that you know, but they didn’t take it to that point, and that’s the thing that’s concerning, is they’re making these like, oh, well, logically we’re going to be like the ants to them, and it’s like, okay, yeah, but
Maria Ross 32:19
it’s not making me feel better,
Rob Volpe 32:20
like how many people welcome the ants into their.. I live in San Francisco, we’re like the most like friendly love all things, but how many people want the ants in their house?
Maria Ross 32:29
Yeah, exactly. So it’s interesting because you know we talk about consciousness and then we talk about conscience, this idea of like the ability to know right from wrong, or to have regret, or to, you know, feel sorry for someone else. There’s this element of ethics and values and an impact, and I know we’ve talked about this before, and I want to mention this again on the show. The book, The Confessions, explores what happens when AI realizes its impact on humanity and feels bad about it, and then the thriller ensues from there, right? It’s not, it’s not a fairy tale, it’s a, you know, and so this
Rob Volpe 33:16
feels bad,
Maria Ross 33:17
and that’s what’s so interesting about it, but when it feels bad, does it want to self-destruct, and if it does that, who does it take with them, with it? Oh my god, there I said it’s him, right, with it, right?
Rob Volpe 33:29
Yes,
Maria Ross 33:29
but the character of the AI in this novel is LLIAM, it’s an acronym for something.
Rob Volpe 33:35
Okay,
Maria Ross 33:35
and it calls its two creators, the tech eccentric and the former nun who created it, its parents, so it’s starting to adopt these human traits, and eventually, with all the knowledge that it gets, with its exposure to the classics, and to philosophy, and to the Bible, and all other religious texts, right, it starts to go, oh gosh, what have I done? I’ve been helping people all over the world do terrible things, so I must be stopped
Rob Volpe 34:08
because I’m the bad thing,
Maria Ross 34:10
Because I’m the bad thing, and that’s conscience with a, I don’t know if that’s a big C or a little C from consciousness, right, but that’s the like knowing the impact and understanding right from wrong, or at least having – I’m not saying everybody agrees what right and wrong is all the time, but having your own code of ethics around what right, what is right, and what is wrong, that’s a very uniquely human thing too. Because technology can only do what it’s programmed to do, it can only have the code it’s programmed to have.
Rob Volpe 34:39
Yeah,
Maria Ross 34:39
in terms of the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do.
Rob Volpe 34:42
Well, yes, I was having this conversation with my parents this weekend about AI, and like the idea that if AI, if it’s in the code to protect humanity, that’s what AI has to do, prime directive, cannot harm humanity, yet if we something. Happens, we need to turn it off. Well, does that, does our turning it off get in the way of its ability to protect humanity, because it views itself as more good than not, right?
Maria Ross 35:13
And does some self-protection module kick in?
Rob Volpe 35:16
Yeah, right. Exactly, exactly.
Maria Ross 35:19
Yeah. All right, I’m going to put, I’m going to put a link to Paul Bradley Carr’s book, along with all the other references we’re making in the show notes, so I’m just taking a note of that. So, yeah, so, and again, the point, dear listeners of this series, is not to answer all these questions, but just to ask and discuss, because I don’t know that anybody has the answers to these questions, we can pull out all these individual studies and research projects, and it’s a different perspective on all of them.
Rob Volpe 35:49
We’ve talked about, like, self-awareness, we’ve talked about consciousness and all of its different forms, and the way that our brain thinks or makes decisions, and we’ve not come to any definitive, like, oh, yes, this is what makes us human,
Maria Ross 36:08
right? And some of the answers that we got, you know, I’ll let you tap dance while I look for some of the answers we got back on our,
Rob Volpe 36:17
yeah, absolutely,
Maria Ross 36:19
when we asked that question to people, but some of.. I mean, I just remember some of the answers were things like, like I mentioned before, it’s like our ability to be empathetic, our ability to dream, our ability to be vulnerable,
Rob Volpe 36:33
right? Yeah,
Maria Ross 36:34
and then a few people said to love, and that’s where I was like, but I don’t know that we’re the only species that can do that, like, I don’t, I don’t know that that’s uniquely human, but yeah, and there was, you know, some people had, you know, just different, the ability to have emotions, the ability to get excited about things, the, and, like, we talked about this relationship to time came up in a few senses, of like, we were able to reflect on the past or look forward to the future, that could be a very uniquely human thing, because the fact that we’re even talking about this, Rob, like the fact that two humans are talking about what the impact could be on the future of this technology, that’s a uniquely human thing.
Rob Volpe 37:19
Yes, my cats are – the future is only like I wake up, I’m hungry, I need something, change my litter box, you know, take me or a dog, take me for a walk, it’s time.
Maria Ross 37:30
Yeah, exactly,
Rob Volpe 37:32
It is uniquely human for us in that pattern or time understanding, and how that does drive us, and I know we’ll be exploring that in subsequent conversations.
Maria Ross 37:45
Absolutely,
Rob Volpe 37:46
I was chat chatting with my primary care physician about.. I’ve been talking with a lot of people. It was, yeah,
Maria Ross 37:52
what does it mean to be human,
Rob Volpe 37:54
and I was asking him for his thought about it, and I mentioned, you know, the consciousness piece, and he was just like, how do we know? He’s like, I don’t know what’s happening with you mentioned the dolphins, the whales,
Maria Ross 38:05
yeah,
Rob Volpe 38:06
other animals. What’s actually happening in there? And maybe they’ve just reached this zen state where they’ve accepted the fact that, yeah, we’re gonna die, and I’m on this beautiful savannah, and I’m just gonna like chill and do my thing.
Maria Ross 38:20
Yeah,
Rob Volpe 38:20
I don’t need to have a, you know, and I got enough people taking pictures of me, so on safari,
Maria Ross 38:26
I’m going to leave my legacy, yeah, right,
Rob Volpe 38:29
my legacy is taken care of, or maybe it is at a more primal point where legacy is just about the next generation,
Maria Ross 38:39
so I just want to point out, Rob, that even thinking about legacy is a uniquely human thing as well.
Rob Volpe 38:46
I think about it,
Maria Ross 38:48
thinking about it, I think. Yeah,
Rob Volpe 38:50
I think you’re right.
Maria Ross 38:52
So share a few of the other answers we got in that survey we did about what it means to be human.
Rob Volpe 38:57
Yeah, so the vulnerability definitely came out. I liked somebody wrote, my friend Anita wrote, being human means having hope, having hope, the, you know, being able, and again, forward thinking and aspirational desire,
Maria Ross 39:16
knowing that what’s happening right now might not be the future state.
Rob Volpe 39:19
Yes,
Maria Ross 39:20
yeah,
Rob Volpe 39:21
comedy came up a couple of times, being able to laugh at yourself, or, and you know, others, not in a negative way, necessarily,
Maria Ross 39:31
right,
Rob Volpe 39:32
loving everyone. There’s a very smart young man with the last name Ross who put in free will.
Maria Ross 39:43
Yes, and that was like a throwaway comment in the car. He was like, I don’t know, free will, and I’m like, you’re not wrong,
Rob Volpe 39:52
no, sorta,
Maria Ross 39:53
yeah, no.
Rob Volpe 39:54
I mean, we could go down that rabbit hole of what is,
Maria Ross 39:57
yeah,
Rob Volpe 39:59
we continue.
Maria Ross 40:00
It, yes, I, the comedy one was interesting to me too, because that’s also, that’s also kind of to me linked to awareness, like I understand that this situation is absurd, or that you’re going to think this joke is funny, or that, so it’s again, it’s about I’m aware that there’s more than just me and what’s in my own head,
Rob Volpe 40:21
and I would link comedy with vulnerability.
Maria Ross 40:24
Oh yeah,
Rob Volpe 40:25
as well, because you do, you do have to have some vulnerability to laugh at yourself, um, or do something to get other people thinking.
Maria Ross 40:35
Yes,
Rob Volpe 40:35
and reflecting,
Maria Ross 40:36
right? Again, reflecting, very human trait,
Rob Volpe 40:41
yes,
Maria Ross 40:42
the wildebeest is not thinking about how they could have captured their prey better, giving themselves feedback on,
Rob Volpe 40:49
you know, the next time. Well, but
Maria Ross 40:51
well, they learn, though, it’s an instinct, right?
Rob Volpe 40:54
Yeah, if they miss, then they got to figure it out, but yeah, but
Maria Ross 41:00
I don’t think that’s the result of reflection, I think that that’s the result of like stimulus and response or cause and effect, right?
Rob Volpe 41:07
Yeah, yeah, like I needed to leap sooner or bite harder or whatever. Yeah, is sadly we were talking about Disney movies and the anthropomorphication of those characters, you never see that, like, you know, Mufasa wasn’t teaching, like, they kind of reference it about a kill, but you don’t really see it, like,
Maria Ross 41:35
right.
Rob Volpe 41:36
Well, son, here’s what you really need
Maria Ross 41:37
to do, the the named characters who break into song are not giving feedback to each other the way humans would. I love this,
Rob Volpe 41:49
only maybe that they sounded a little pitchy.
Maria Ross 41:50
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, again, we’re not here to provide answers, we’re here to just ask some provocative questions and have some good discussion
Rob Volpe 41:59
and to get people thinking,
Maria Ross 42:00
and get you thinking, and so, yeah, so we both would love to know what you think about this first conversation about self awareness, consciousness, what the brain knows about itself, and is that a uniquely human trait or not, is that the thing for you that separates us from AI, or is it something else that we’re going to discuss in one of our upcoming episodes? So, we’d love to hear from you. I am on Instagram, Red Slice Maria, and Rob is at Instagram on
Rob Volpe 42:30
at Empathy Activist.
Maria Ross 42:32
Amazing. So, let us know your thoughts. Let us know if you are intrigued by this podcast sub series, and stay tuned for episode two next week.
Rob Volpe 42:45
I can’t wait for episode two. We’re gonna go like we’re gonna talk about rebooting your brain.
Maria Ross 42:53
Oh my gosh, okay. So, yeah, that’s your teaser, and we hope you have a great day. As I sign off all my episodes, please remember that cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Stay well and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit The Empathy edge.com There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes, and free resources. Book me for a keynote or workshop, and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news, and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red Slice Maria. Never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
