The most popular question I get, by far, is how to balance empathy and accountability. often a false impression of empathy that makes us ask this question in the first place.
Today, I’m talking with Andrea Butcher, CEO of HRD, a Leadership Development Company. Andrea is a visionary—she knows how to lead organizations from big picture to execution. Today we talk about what emerging leaders are asking for in leadership development programs, which skills they want to strengthen, and what is vital to help all leaders in today’s landscape be successful. We discuss how the work of leadership is self-development, how empathy and accountability co-exist, and why clear communication is so vital because you can’t hold someone accountable to an expectation that was never set. She shares a lovely story about showing up as yourself, and another about how to respond to someone who has dropped the ball.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Every leader should have a coach. Everyone can benefit from having a safe place to struggle through challenges.
- As humans, we connect through weakness and vulnerability. But it takes confidence to feel those emotions and show that vulnerability while still recognizing your worth.
- Asking for feedback from trusted employees and advisors is a great path forward in becoming a better leader. It will do a lot to build trust and reinforce the relationship too.
“You can’t hold someone accountable for an expectation that has not been set. So much of the time it’s the lack of clarity that’s getting in the way.”
— Andrea Butcher
Episode References:
- The Empathy Edge Podcast: Claude Silver: Leading With Heart At Vayner Media
- The Empathy Edge Podcast: Anna Liotta: Understanding Generational Codes
- Executive Coach Ed Batista article on empathy and accountability
About Andrea Butcher, CEO, HRD
Andrea is a visionary—she knows how to lead organizations from big picture to execution. She is a dynamic speaker, executive coach, and facilitator. As the CEO of HRD – A Leadership Development Company, she leads a national team of expert facilitators and coaches and drives the organization’s growth strategy. She also hosts a daily and weekly leadership podcast, Being [at Work] and is the author of The Power in the Pivot (Red Thread Publishing 2022) and HR Kit for Dummies (Wiley 2023). In 2020, she was recognized by the Indianapolis Women’s Journal as a Woman of Influence.
Andrea’s work spans organizations of all sizes and industries all over the world; she has experience in global HR positions, consulting, operations, and executive roles for private and public organizations.
Andrea is also the co-founder and President of Next Gen Talent, a program specifically designed to equip emerging HR leaders for success.
Connect with Andrea:
Website: https://hrdleadership.com/
Being [at Work] and Daily Dose: https://hrdleadership.com/podcasts/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leaderdevelopmentcoach/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andrea.w.moore.3
Andrea’s speaking page: https://hrdleadership.com/andrea-butcher-speaker/
Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. The most popular question I get by far is how to balance empathy and accountability. Often, a false impression of empathy makes us even ask this question in the first place. Today I’m talking with Andrea butcher, CEO of HR D, a leadership development company. Andrea is a visionary. She knows how to lead organizations from big picture to execution. She’s a dynamic speaker, executive coach and facilitator. And as CEO, she leads a national team of expert facilitators and coaches and drives the organization’s growth strategy. She also hosts a daily and weekly leadership podcast being at work, and is the author of the power in the pivot and HR kit for dummies. She’s also the co founder and president of next gen talent, a program specifically designed to equip emerging HR leaders for success. Today, Andrea and I talk about what emerging leaders are asking for in leadership development programs, which skills they want to strengthen, and what is vital to help all leaders in today’s landscape be successful. We discuss how the work of leadership is self development, how empathy and accountability coexist, and why clear communication is so vital, because as Andrea says, You can’t hold someone accountable to an expectation that was never set. She shares a lovely story about showing up as yourself, and another about how to respond to someone who has dropped the ball. Today’s episode echoed so many themes you’ll find in my book coming to September, the empathy dilemma, how successful leaders balanced performance, people and personal boundaries, by the way now available for preorder at your favorite online bookseller this conversation with Andrea was truly a delight. Take a listen. Welcome, Andrea to the empathy edge podcast to talk about leadership, empathy, accountability, and what the next generation needs and wants. Welcome to the show.
Andrea Butcher 02:42
Oh, my gosh, all of my very favorite things to talk about. This is going to be fun.
Maria Ross 02:48
This is awesome. And we should mention that you also have a podcast that we will want folks to check out. So tell us a little bit about that as being at work. Yeah.
Andrea Butcher 02:57
It’s the leadership podcast. So I’ve been in the leadership development executive coaching space for a long, long time and really wanted a forum to capture stories. So I asked every guest, tell me about a pivotal moment that taught you a lot about yourself and your leadership. And now six years later, what I have found is every single story becomes this really great leadership lesson. But that’s how we package it. So the show is being at work, as you said, yeah, check it out. I also do every single day, which is not for the faint of heart every single day, I do a daily dose of leadership. So there is a lot of content within that feed. I love
Maria Ross 03:34
it. And we’ll put a link in the show notes for that. But I’m gonna take a step back and find out your story as I do with every guest. How did you get to this work? And what are you so passionate about within this
Andrea Butcher 03:45
one it funny when you look back and see how all the dots connected and all those things that you wanted to work out not working out such blessings in disguise. And I have a daughter who’s a senior in college right now. And she’s so driven and so focused and conscientious and so she feels like she has to have her thing. And I just keep laughing? No.
Maria Ross 04:08
I never had something I constantly was like opportunity to opportunity. Like Thank God, I live in the era we live in that I didn’t have to pick a career and do it till I retired. I
Andrea Butcher 04:18
know exactly. Well, who knows what they’re doing ever. It’s like every day is a new adventure. So I feel so fortunate Maria to get to do the work that I do. That’s very much the attitude I have around it, it is a blessing. So as I look back on my career I in college I have with a psychology major, I’ve always been fascinated by why people do what they do. And so, psychology 101 blew my mind. Oh my gosh, I my parents were school teachers. So I don’t have a business background. And I didn’t know the business world or corporate or but you know, now that I see my I saw my parents leading in a school setting and actually grew up in a really small community. So I had an idea As a teacher, and wow, like, I can see from like my early years, I see those roots of people and development and potential and curiosity around what makes someone tick and what motivates someone. And so I was the psych major. And my plan was to get a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Well, it’s really competitive into those programs. So I had a professor that said, Andrea, you know, the other little nugget from this is listening to those voices, those like random voices that I had this random professor that said to me, you really liked your industrial organizational psychology class, have you thought about human resources? What’s that, like? That sounds awful. I was at I was in Indiana State at the time in Indiana State has a master’s in human resource development. He’s like, well just just go and talk to them and check it out. And so because I had no idea what I was going to do, I went and had a conversation. And the next thing I knew, there was a graduate assistantship program. And so I applied, I got it. So I was so fortunate to have my masters paid for and got a master’s in human resource development, which really taught me a lot about organizational leadership, organizational effectiveness, org development, and I fell in love with it, like, wow, this is about, like helping people be the best version of themselves in the workplace. And so that really set me on a course I when I entered the job force then like, right, the workforce right after my master’s, it was wide open, and I had lots of opportunities. The master’s degree in HR is very different than it was today. And I took a role with a company called premier for now in Chicago, because in the interview process, the hiring manager asked me, well, you know, we’re based in London, so would you be okay, with international travel? Like, are you kidding? 23 years old, I’m single, yeah, of course, that would be okay with international travel. And so I did. So for the first eight years of my career, I did globe, I did global HR for this electronics distribution company. And the company was growing and expanding. And we had really progressive leadership investing in leaders all over the world. And so I got exposed to and certified in so many programs disc and MBTI, and DTI and career ladders and change leadership. And I mean, you name it. I mean, that’s just off the top of my head, like for really foundational tools and assessments. And I had an incredible mentor who put me in opportunities that were my experience level I should never have had, but he saw the potential and the enthusiasm in me. And it’s really set me up then to be able to consult. So I went from that internal role then to leadership development consulting, and for the next than 10 years really did that at an executive level, got an executive coaching certification and just honed that craft. I went back into corporate in 2014, I had an opportunity to lead HR and talent for a large security business. And I was doing all this executive coaching as a consultant, but felt a lot of impostor thought because I had never led at that level. And it was, it was really interesting. It was a tough culture, it was very male dominated. I had a leader who espouse a set of values that he didn’t live. So I learned a lot of lessons going through a lot of adversity. But I’m grateful for that time. Yeah, because it then set me up to in 20 2017, I joined HRD, as the President of the business and have had just so much fun. Maria, over the last seven years growing that business, we, within our first two years, because of the focus on leadership development, we doubled revenue, and then from 2019 to 2023, we doubled revenue again. So clearly, there are some things that are working in our business and to be able now today, to lead an organization doing work that I’m so passionate about is such a gift.
Maria Ross 09:21
That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And I love you know, you have to have those negative experiences to to see what not to do. You got to learn what what kind of leader you don’t want to be, or what kind of culture you don’t want to create. Yeah, because otherwise it’s always valuable. Yeah, it’s just as valuable Of course. So,
Andrea Butcher 09:37
so much of the time we we we turn like, oh, no, this is bad. This is no it’s contrast telling you reminding you of your values and what’s important to you. I
Maria Ross 09:47
love it. I love it. So what do you see as vital or missing in leadership development today? What what are the skills or the gaps that folks have? have to be the most effective leader they can be to ultimately drive the organization’s success forward.
Andrea Butcher 10:05
Yeah, from my perspective, it continues to be the human skills. We have come such a long way. I mean, the work that Brene Brown and Simon Sinek and Adam Grant are doing, are really pushing the envelope, but I am just my mind is boggled by the organizations that still don’t get it are still ego and greed driven. And, and so yeah, I mean, I, I have such an abundant mindset, there’s the you know, the work that I do, 20 years ago, leadership development didn’t get nearly the press, or there weren’t nearly as many experts doing that. Today, it’s a very different landscape. And I’m like, a big Hell yeah, for as many people doing the work as possible, because I think every leader needs a coach, just like every human needs a good therapist, I haven’t been leader could benefit from coaching and having a safe place to struggle through challenges. I mean, it’s because what’s interesting about if you think about the definition of leadership, you know, it’s to go to guide to travel, to taking a group of people, somewhere, mobilizing people to want to struggle for something that we share. That’s how I think about leadership. So it’s getting results through other people. But what happens so much is when you’ve got an ego driven leader that doesn’t really trust themselves, or even know themselves, they try to do everything on their own, right, they withhold, they don’t share openly, they aren’t vulnerable. And so it’s really hard then to connect or collaborate or, or engage others in that process. And so it’s, I am so passionate Maria, about giving leaders a place where they can let their guard down, because until they let their guard down and realize how good that actually feel, feels. And until they become more of who they really are, instead of trying to be something that they think someone else wants them to be, they’re not going to be what their team members need, or they’re not going to be that thing that creates connection.
Maria Ross 12:07
Well, and that’s such an interesting paradigm, because there is the desire and the need for leaders to show up as who they are. And to bring that to the table because they can’t be anyone else. And I spoke with Claude silver, who’s the Chief Heart Officer at VaynerMedia. And she talked about the fact that a lot of her role is about helping people be who they are as a leader, and not try to emulate anyone else, not even try to emulate Gary Vaynerchuk. And she says she talks to them about we hired you because of you. But that balance needs to be tempered with self awareness have got it. There’s also gaps you might have, there are strengths, there are gaps, there are emotional triggers. And you also need to know that about you, you can’t just blindly show up as who you are, in all its raw glory, because that might not be the best way to move everyone forward. So it’s a balance of digging deep, and figuring out who you are and what you’re good at and what you need to work on. And then being able to show up authentically, in that I think I think the biggest thing is not to pretend and not to put your head in the sand of like, I’m gonna pretend I have all the answers. And I’ve got this and I’m a perfect leader, when there is no such thing. Right? So what it what is your thought about balancing that authenticity with that continued desire to improve and grow and learn and understand where we might need to work on something
Andrea Butcher 13:39
that that is the work of leadership development, it is self development. And in order to be who you are, you have to know who you are. And doesn’t that ebb and flow and evolve. And, I mean, it’s why values work is so prevalent in leadership development, but even like, peeling back the layers, like I love to take leaders through a values exercise, but then like, I don’t really care what your values are, I want to know why that’s value. Yeah. And I want to know, like, how that shows up on your calendar and in your life and the values and action, right? It’s like it’s going a little bit deeper and, and then to your point around the weaknesses. It’s it’s beyond owning the weakness. You know, it’s it’s, like, connecting through your weakness and being willing to say, like, Hey, I’m really struggling here. Like, this is not something I have experienced it or this I have no idea what I’m doing right now. It’s, I mean, that is so freakin refreshing. When you hear somebody say that. Yeah. I tell this story a lot. And it resonates because of because of that, like connecting through our weakness. Several years ago, I put my daughter into a theater class that was eight weeks long and she was given a she’ll so Silverstein poem. Uh huh. called our orchestra. Oh, you You are a customer, she was the orchestra. And the idea was okay, we’re going to rehearse this, you’re going to show up every Saturday in practice with the instructor. And then at the end of the program, you’re going to present it in front of an audience. And so I mean, she was so excited about this and was always practicing, like, beating her belly as if it were her drum and playing her nose as if it were, our fleet was really cute, really cute poem. And she brought it to life in such a cool way. So I mean, I, I thought, this is going to be fun. This is like Mason’s moment to shine. She’s such a gregarious outgoing person, and kid. And so on the day of the performance, we got there early, we’re getting set up, I got a place in the front row with my little video camera like ready to capture this moment in action. And when she walked up on stage, I could tell immediately, like, Oh, my God, she has, like a horrific case of stage fright. It was like the blood had been drained from her body, she was pale white with all these red splotches, and she was shaking, visibly had to hit head to toe. And so I thought, okay, she’s going to run off the stage, she’s going to dig her head into my hip, and she’s going to sob, but put my video camera down. And, and she didn’t do that she did the entire performance. And it was really, really shaky. I mean, she beat her belly and play her little, her little nose like it was her flute. But it was, it was not a good performance. But she didn’t miss a line. Because I knew the poem. She got every single word. It was just really, really shaking. And what do you think, what do you think the audience did at the end of that performance?
Maria Ross 16:33
Well, of course they clapped. They probably gave her a standing ovation when they probably saw the fear. It
Andrea Butcher 16:38
was the only standing ovation of the day. And what I love about this during the reason I tell it so much is nobody was clapping for her because it was a good performance. Right? We were clapping before her because as you said, she was terrified and she did it anyways, yes, connect, we connect to our weakness. So any, anytime we’re vulnerable enough to put ourselves out there. I mean, it’s the reason we cheer for the underdog. And we love a good comeback story. You know, we there’s something really refreshing about that. And, but it takes confidence, right in who you are in a feeling of worthiness I’ve Yeah, I’ve been reading about and listening so much to so much about worthiness that it’s because it’s even in those moments, when I have no idea what I’m doing. And I’m awkward, and I’m messy, I’m still worthy. I know who I am, I know that I have gifts, I know that I belong. And so it keeps me in that if you don’t have that feeling of worthiness, it’s going to be hard to show up, right?
Maria Ross 17:36
Well, and that’s how you that’s how bullies show up. Because they, I often talk about the ability to make space in your brain, for empathy for being able to take on another person’s point of view without defensiveness or fear, that requires you to have your foundation strong, and you to feel worthy you to feel confident you to feel like well, at least I can figure this out. And I’m open to other points of view, because it’s the leaders that are not feeling confident the leaders that are insecure, the leaders that are leading from a place of fear, that are the ones that don’t want to tarnish the diverse thoughts and experiences of everyone in the organization. Because they have some skewed view of the fact that if I’m a leader, I’m the one that has to come up with all the good ideas myself, right? Or I can’t show weakness, I can’t show that I don’t, I can’t go to my team and say, Hey, I’m having a really hard time figuring this out. Let’s figure it out together. And that paradigm, I mean, you’re living it, that paradigm is changing. And I actually have a lot of empathy for those leaders who came up in a time when those weren’t the rules. And now all of a sudden, they’re being told, Oh, no, you need to talk about personal things at work. I mean, you don’t have to but, you know, like, became successful through a certain set of rules that they were taught. And now they’re like, someone changed the rules of the game on me. And I actually don’t know how to lead other people or mentor other people because I didn’t grow up in the system the same way. Yeah. And so that’s those are the ones I hope are investing in leadership development and being able to learn the new paradigm and be comfortable with the new paradigm of we’re trying to bring our humanity to work because you can’t park your humanity at the Office Store.
Andrea Butcher 19:19
Right in your humanity showing whether Yeah, I could or not showing anyway. Yeah, it and it’s interesting that you say that about you know, feeling some compassion, or for those who like the game has changed. But it’s interesting because I think that I think empathy and compassion are natural. I think a lot of these they’re in nature, human beings policies, right. And then we put in place, like the way in which we traditionally have exited people. That’s not natural, that feels like shit, which is why every HR person freakin hates letting people go. But if you do that with like, hey, this just isn’t the right fit for either of us and we can are about you. And so here’s what we’re gonna do to like make this process like, just so she can show some compassion and heart that process.
Maria Ross 20:07
Yeah, I often talk about my most empathetic boss, I’ve told this story a million times. So my listeners are probably groaning. But my most empathetic boss was someone who had to lay off the entire marketing team in advance of a merger. And he’s still my mentor to this day, I’ve actually quoted him in the new book coming in the fall the empathy dilemma, but it’s, it’s this both and philosophy that I’m trying to preach, and it sounds like you are to where you can be empathetic and high performing. You can make really tough business decisions. And you can do that with compassion. We’ve been we’ve been sold this bill of goods that it has to be either or,
Andrea Butcher 20:42
and actually, I think they go hand in hand. Yes, totally. Because care, like a relationship is not one or the other. A relationship is both. Yeah. And it’s almost like, of course, I’m going to hold you accountable for the things we agreed to. Because I care about you and our relationship, because I empathize with you, because I know you and who you are. So with that interesting, I don’t often get the it’s It boggles my mind. When leaders say things, like, well, but I don’t want to hold them accountable, because I’m worried about the relationship and like, yeah, not holding them accountable is way more damaging to the relationship. Yeah. Because you’re not following through on what you committed to or what you want. And
Maria Ross 21:29
you’re leaving them spinning. I mean, it’s sort of like a parent not giving a child boundaries. I mean, they you need some boundary, you need some structure, you need some boundaries. And so it doesn’t mean you people, please because that’s, that’s often that’s why I’m writing the next book is because folks are burning themselves out in the name of being an empathetic leader, but what they’re practicing is actually not empathy. It’s people pleasing. It’s exactly caving in its submission. And so being able to learn that skill of I can be strong in my decision, if I know I’ve made my decision based on my values, and I can communicate tough decisions to my team that they may not like nobody wants to get laid off, for example, but I can do it in a way where I can think through what might this person need right now? How can I support them? How can I communicate in a different way than just perfunctorily giving them the news over, you know, a 10 minute zoom call? Like, how can I do this in a way that is more human and maybe what they need is space to vent. And I can give them that without? I’m not going to change the business decision, the business decision has been made. And just because someone’s upset, I can’t go okay, you’re right. Forget the layoffs, we’re not doing them. Right. So I love that. And I want to segue into what you alluded to here, because that is the big thing leaders struggle with is how to balance empathy with accountability. So tell us your thought on that. You teased it a little bit? Yeah,
Andrea Butcher 22:58
I for me, like, I don’t think it’s the balance. I think it’s an and I think as a leader, you are empathic and you hold your team members accountable. I mean, it’s so empathy, you know, seeking to understand like, where someone is, like meeting them where they are, that doesn’t mean letting someone off the hook. We’ve gotten that confused in our head like I am, because because, again, this goes back to our definition of leadership, my role is to get results through my team. So we have goals and things that we commit to. And I care so much about them as humans. And so as I’m paying attention to things they’re struggling with, and things perhaps that they’re not doing, I’m going to communicate and I’m going to connect with them on that. I’m Why would I let them off the hook? We’ve made an agreement on right thing, they care about a shared perspective. And a lot of times it’s like, oh, yeah, like, I totally missed that. You’re right, or, Hey, just, you know, like, I’ve got a lot going on, and then that leads to it a bigger conversation around, how can we help you and support you? And what what do you need? Because we are a team?
Maria Ross 24:11
Yes. Yes, I love that. There is a leadership coach, executive coach, Ed Batista, who wrote a an article that I’ve quoted in the new book where he has this quadrant of empathy and accountability. And one of one of the things that the quadrant communicates is that accountability without empathy as a bootcamp, but empathy without accountability is a daycare. Okay? Like it’s just this idea of like, everyone can’t just do what they want to do. That’s not the purpose of the organization. That’s not the purpose of the workplace. And several of the leaders that I interviewed for the new book, talked about the fact that they’re very clear that their first goal is to support they’re hired in that role to meet the goals of the organization. They can’t lose sight of that. They can do that while taking care of their people love that. But what they always keep sight of at the end of the day, if a person is not performing, if a person is struggling, it’s my job to then make sure that the work gets done, I still have to figure out a way to get the work done. I still have to hold people accountable. It doesn’t mean I don’t care
Andrea Butcher 25:23
about them. Yeah, I have a team member recently that that dropped the ball on a few things. And, you know, so she reports to a leader within my business. And so the leader and I were having a conversation about like, what’s happening, and there’s like this pattern of behavior. And we care so much about her. And we know that there’s some, like fit question with the role that we’ve talked a lot about as an organization and with her about. And so we had an opportunity, another colleague had a little event at our house. And so I just asked, this team member is like, what would you ride with me? Because I just, I hadn’t had that one on one time, I didn’t feel like I was in a good position to call her up and be like, Hey, what’s going on? Yeah, I hadn’t done my part of under seeking to understand. So we had a car ride together. And we sang Taylor Swift songs. And we laughed together. And we connected and not surprising, she opened up a little bit and shared about some of the things that have been going on. And so and we have had conversations about following through on the things that we commit to clients about and the impact that that has. And so again, it’s an end, I love the grid that you highlight, I think
Maria Ross 26:33
it’s awesome. I’ll put a link to that article in the show notes. But well, it just highlights
Andrea Butcher 26:37
the and the MA and accountability. They are leadership skills, like they are their leadership skills. Mm hmm. And that are really important and supportive of each other.
Maria Ross 26:47
So you are the founder of next gen talent, and co founder and president a program specifically designed to equip emerging HR leaders for success. So you’re working with younger people? Yeah. And so I’m wondering, what are they asking to learn? What are you hearing from them? And is it different from what you heard maybe a decade ago, or 20 years ago? From leaders?
Andrea Butcher 27:12
Well, yes, it is fascinating. I mean, I learn, I learned so much from them. I mean, so they’re all two to five years in to their HR. So they’re, you know, they’re mostly late, mid to late 20s. And, well, first of all, just the way they engage with technology blows my mind, how they’re fearless around it, they the depth at which, so if they if I if we were to engage some of them in this conversation, Maria, it would almost be like, and, of course, you know, the language that they use and their experiences. I mean, they, they have grown up in a world, particularly over the last several years, where they’re immersed in it through social media every single day, the human centric skills. So it is an expectation that they have of their leaders. Yeah, they they want, they want that connection. They want relationship with their leaders. They want to be seen, right? I mean, they’re the people that we have in next in town. It’s an application process. So it’s driven, you know, growth oriented individuals naturally, but they but is it but it is a subset, you know, over the last six years, we’ve had 15 leaders each year. So now what 50 or so leaders have participated in the experience. And a theme that I have seen across all of the groups is how they want they want to add value. They want to be seen by their organizations, they so badly want to contribute and are just our our crave craving, that that connection with their organizations with their leaders. I love
Maria Ross 29:02
this. And I’m going to link in the show notes to another episode we did with Ana Liana, who’s a generational expert, she wrote a fantastic book about the differences in generations in the workplace, and where the communication conflicts happen. It’s called unlocking generational codes. And we had a great interview, where she talks about it’s not just the stereotypes you hear about different generations, it’s how different generations view the power of information, how they view technology, how they view leadership. And when you when the clash happens, because the two groups are not whatever groups we’re talking about whether we’re talking about Gen X and Boomers or Boomers and Gen Z or whomever the clash happens because there’s a lack of empathy and understanding of what makes that generation or people of that generation tick. And we can solve a lot of our communication problems and thus our leadership issues. If We have a better understanding of where people are coming from. Because you know, otherwise you get the oh, those younger people are so entitled, they just they want to be like Vice President tomorrow. And maybe they do. But there’s a very good reason that they approach work that way. And so you can still fulfill their needs without promoting them to Vice Pres. If and when I,
Andrea Butcher 30:19
those, those comments always kind of bugged me, because it’s like, I think the I don’t think that no, I that’s not been my experience. I mean, I think they want to add value. Yeah, want to contribute at the max. And so I often think, like, our Gen X brains are filtering that as well, they want my role or they want, yeah, no, I just think they want to they like their bad acids. So they like France.
Maria Ross 30:46
Yeah, it’s understanding that mindset. And yes, it’s not promoting them to CEO tomorrow, even though that might be what they’re communicating. But it’s finding those ways to give them those opportunities to contribute and make a difference and have an impact. And so that was really both the needs can be met in that scenario, if we understand where people are coming from. And so there’s also this, this concept that Claude silver talked about when she was on, which is that when it’s why clarity is a pillar in my next book about how to be an effective empathetic leader. It’s being really clear with people about what the expectations are, and not just the job description. But this is what we expect. This is how we expect people to treat each other on this team. This is how we expect people to step up when there’s a crisis, or there’s an issue. And just being crystal clear about that. She talked about the fact that being crystal clear about career paths, and values and expectations, eradicated a lot of the perceived and teittleman Because people want information, they want to know what to expect. And I’m curious what you think about that?
Andrea Butcher 31:56
Yeah, I totally aligned with that. Brene Brown says clarity is
Maria Ross 32:00
mind. Yes, absolutely. So as we Oh,
Andrea Butcher 32:04
God sets us up for it sets us up for accountability. I mean, you can’t hold someone accountable for an expectation that has not been set. And so much of the time, yeah, it’s the lack of clarity that’s getting in the way, versus accountability being the issue.
Maria Ross 32:19
I love that I want to repeat that you cannot hold someone accountable for an expectation that they haven’t been. Yet
Andrea Butcher 32:24
you haven’t set that you have a sense that, love it. Love it. Okay, so
Maria Ross 32:28
as we wrap up, what sort of a golden gem you have for leaders that are struggling with maybe their own personality of being able to connect with their teams or with other people? Maybe they think they have a blind spot in terms of like, I’m just not good at the people stuff. Yeah. What do you say to those leaders when you’re working with them? Yeah, I would encourage
Andrea Butcher 32:50
those leaders to identify like a couple of trusted advisors, people that you’ve worked with, that, you know, will tell you the truth and ask them for some feedback. With a lot of heart and a lot of sincerity. You know, it could sound something like, you know, I want I want to grow as a leader, I want to be better as a leader, like, you know, me, well, I trust you. Like, what have you seen that’s getting in my way? What can I do differently? It’s so simple. Yeah, but if these are people in your life, like asking them for feedback is going to do a lot to build trust to reinforce that relationship. But also, you’re gonna get some good, good insight.
Maria Ross 33:25
And it’s scary, it’s vulnerable to ask, because, you know, you actually want an honest answer. Right. But it’s like,
Andrea Butcher 33:30
you got to choose the right people, right, trusted advisors that you know, will tell you the truth.
Maria Ross 33:35
Yeah, yeah. Get them when they’re in a good mood to lay out a full night’s sleep. Well, Andrea, this has been such a great conversation. I’ll probably talk for another two hours, I’m sure. But all your links will be in the show notes. But for folks that are on the go exercising right now taking a walk, where’s the best place they can find out more about your work?
Andrea Butcher 33:55
Yeah, for certain LinkedIn, I put a ton of content out on LinkedIn, I’m very active there. So Andrea butcher, feel free to connect with me and, and I also I mean, I am one of those people. If you send me a direct message on LinkedIn, I will respond. I am a connector at heart and I love getting to know people. So I would love to hear what resonated so please connect with me there.
Maria Ross 34:16
I love it. And LinkedIn etiquette, if you do that, make sure you to send her a message that you heard her on the empathy edge podcast. Exactly. And we will also link to your podcast being at work, which is amazing. So we will put that resource in the show notes as well.
Andrea Butcher 34:31
Thank you, Maria, thank you so much for the work that you’re doing. I can’t wait to read your book and support you. And this is such important work that you’re doing. So I’m rooting for you. I’m lifting you up. And I’m so grateful for the impact that you’re having. Same.
Maria Ross 34:45
Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a friend or a colleague. Until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually Lusa take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources, book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
