Self-awareness is the first pillar of effective empathetic leadership in The Empathy Dilemma. If you don’t know what’s going on for you, you will never be able to make room for empathetic leadership.
I highly recommend working with a leadership or executive coach to guide you in this self-discovery process. But the world of coaching is like the Wild West, with so many people promising the moon, engaging in unethical tactics, and giving the industry a bad name.
Today, my guest, Bridgette Boudreau, talks about effective coaching relationships and how to embrace empathy to get the results you want.
We had a meandering and meaningful conversation about false confidence, tips to find and work effectively with a coach, red flags to avoid, and how to recognize certain behavior patterns that are stopping you from getting the results you want. We also talk about the coaching industry and how ethical, genuine coaches can lean into marketing and selling with integrity so the right clients can find them.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Try doing some changes internally and seeing what changes about the situation – everybody at work that we’re disagreeing with is not the enemy.
- Don’t write off coaching forever if you have had a negative coaching experience.
- Vibes are important – if you are feeling in the flow, an openness, and like you’re energetically on the same page, that’s what you want in a coach.
- Take what you want and leave the rest. Be curious, try new things, and see what works for you.
“Never give up your discernment. If something doesn’t feel right, bring it up in the session. And if that doesn’t feel safe, then that’s not the right coaching relationship for you.” — Bridgette Boudreau
Episode References:
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About Bridgette Boudreau, Master Certified Coach
Bridgette Boudreau is a Master-Certified Coach and Business Consultant with a passion for helping people at midlife+ figure out what’s next, small-scale entrepreneurship, and mentoring other coaches. Bridgette’s coaching philosophy is rooted in compassion and finding one’s intrinsic motivation versus pushing or hustling. She acts as a strategic thought partner, providing a safe and supportive environment for her clients to grow. With over 16 years of coaching experience, she has developed the Mosaic Framework to help people create a fulfilling next act on their terms.
Bridgette’s coaching style is like the love child of Bob Ross and Mary Poppins: She’s going to love and encourage the hell out of you to do it your way, and you’re going to get it done.
Bridgette lives in Seattle with her partner Stephanie and their dog-son, Mr. Beverly Wiggins.
Connect with Bridgette:
Bridgette Boudreau Coaching: bridgetteboudreau.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/bboudreau
Facebook: facebook.com/bridgette.boudreau
Instagram: instagram.com/bridgetteboudreau
Threads: threads.net/@bridgetteboudreau
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books
Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Self awareness is the first pillar of effective empathetic leadership from my book The Empathy dilemma. Because if you don’t know what’s going on for you, your strengths, weaknesses or emotional triggers, you’ll never be able to make room for empathetic leadership. I highly recommend working with a leadership or executive coach to guide you in this self discovery process. Don’t be shy. Don’t be scared. Pro athletes have trainers. Think of a coach as helping you optimize performance too. But the world of coaching is like the Wild West, so many people promising the moon, engaging in unethical tactics and basically giving the industry a bad name. Do not shy away from working with a leadership or executive coach because of one bad experience. Please. Your teams need you to know who you are, and so you can show up as yourself with confidence and compassion. Today, my guest, master certified coach and business consultant, Bridgette Boudreau talked about effective coaching relationships and how to embrace empathy to get the results you want. Bridgette has passion for helping people at midlife plus figure out what’s next, small scale entrepreneurship and mentoring other coaches. Bridgette’s coaching philosophy is rooted in compassion and finding one’s intrinsic motivation versus pushing or hustling. She acts as a strategic thought partner, providing a safe and supportive environment for her clients to grow. With over 16 years of coaching experience, she’s developed the mosaic framework to help people create a fulfilling next act on their terms. Bridgette’s coaching style is like the love child of Bob Ross and Mary Poppins. She’s going to love and encourage the hell out of you to do it your way, and you’re going to get it done. Bridgette lives in Seattle with her partner, Stephanie, and their dog, son, which has the best name ever, Mr. Beverly Wiggins. Bridgette and I had a meandering and meaningful conversation about false confidence, tips to find and work effectively with a coach, red flags to avoid and how to recognize a certain behavior pattern, like refusing to lean into empathy that might be stopping you from getting the results you want. We also talk about the coaching industry and how the ethical, genuine coaches out there can lean into marketing and selling with integrity so the right clients can find them, whether you are a prospective client or a coach, this episode is for you. Take a listen. Welcome to the empathy edge. Bridgette Boudreau, it is so good to see you. It’s been forever in a day, as we were just talking about, it almost literally has been forever. What did you say, like, 2.6 million years since the last time we saw each other?
Bridgette Boudreau 03:32
Yeah, but it feels full circle, because I think we’re gonna talk about how I came to the coaching industry, and that’s when, yes, first met, for
Maria Ross 03:40
sure, we met back in my Seattle days, at the time, you were working for Martha Beck’s organization. And so tell us a little bit about your story and what got you to this work, doing the coaching that you’re doing right now. Well,
Bridgette Boudreau 03:53
really, love of this work is my Touchstone and but I fell into it initially, you know, I was typical story working in corporate. Just kept banging my head against the wall, bullying bosses the whole nine yards, you know, I kept trying to fit into that structure and fold myself into different shapes. And then I finally realized, like, Oh, I just don’t fit here. This is not for me. Even though I love marketing, I love people, I cannot do this. It doesn’t make any sense to me. And so I had worked with coach, and honestly, that was the only thing that sounded better than what I was doing. And so I got into coaching. Went to kind of this little bit wacky weekend workshop led by Martha Beck to do a coach training. And then I, you know, became a coach. And because I had no idea what it was involved in starting a business, I just dove in. And that was, I guess maybe it’s kind of like having children I never have. But maybe. Just good, you don’t totally
Maria Ross 05:00
I was just gonna say none of us would do it if we knew what it actually entailed.
Bridgette Boudreau 05:05
Yeah, same. But I did it. And, long story short, ended up running Martha’s company and then left that endeavor after a few years, and have actually been working on my own now for, I don’t know six, eight years of pandemic time. Who knows? I know
Maria Ross 05:23
it’s like three years or three months. Who knows how long it is and what? Who are the type of people that you serve
Bridgette Boudreau 05:29
I work with. So there’s a couple different types of people that I work with where there’s a huge Venn Diagram of overlap. So because I’m one of those multi passionate, just like my clients, that refuse to be pinned down. And so I have several things that I do. I do business advising and consulting, and that’s with service based businesses, usually mostly women at midlife, plus what I call it, because what are we calling ourselves? I don’t know. And then on the other side, I do personal coaching for that same population, but really about being at a crossroads in life, and how do you want to move forward? And I have a mosaic framework that I use in that work. So those are the two parts of my work, but it’s really primarily women, although I do work with others at this stage of life. And the reason why, I mean, I’ve always loved business, but the reason why that fits is because, I think, with the ageism and between the post menopausal giving no F’s and the ageism in corporate and the why are we even climbing this ladder? A lot of women that age end up starting their own businesses, yeah, so that’s where the Nexus is. And, yeah, yeah, there’s definitely
Maria Ross 06:45
an environment there that is not always conducive to supporting women. And you know, we talk about empathetic leadership on this show, and we’ve tried to shine a light on how we can be more empathetic, not just to women, but to other underrepresented groups in the workplace, whether it’s neurodiversity, whether it’s ethnicity, whether it’s gender or sexual orientation, whatever it is, it’s understanding that you do have this patchwork of people with different life experiences, and the more successful leaders are the ones that can learn how to harness the value of those different perspectives and give those people room to show up as who they are, and they actually will benefit. The bottom line will benefit, you know, that’s my whole jam. Is talking about the ROI of empathetic leadership, amen.
Bridgette Boudreau 07:29
And, you know, I work with empathetic leaders. I think that’s the Venn diagram between, you know, the two of us, and exactly that. And then the the thing that I find with empathetic leaders is that everybody has their patterns and their shadow aspects, and so people that naturally are high in empathy can be have people pleasing tendencies or a little codependent. And so it’s also helping people with those inner pieces, and not just what’s the strategic plan, and how are we going to elevate your leadership team? We’re doing all of that, but talking about the inner stuff. And the other thing is, is that you know, whether you’re a coach in your own business or you’re a business owner or just a, honestly, a woman at this age who is thinking deeper thoughts, is it can be really lonely, and we don’t always have these spaces where we can show up and be vulnerable and say what’s true for us and sort of be our messy selves. And so for me, it’s really important, because I didn’t have those spaces in corporate to create those spaces where women can come and let their hair down and talk about what’s real, and they’re
Maria Ross 08:45
not always going to be created for us. And that’s why, you know, we’re really looking to women that are able to rise in the leadership ranks to change the conversation. And I truly believe that’s why we’re understanding why the leadership paradigm is changing. We’re seeing that the way that many women, not all women, there are very un empathetic female bosses out there. I’ve worked for some of them, but the way that, yes, women lean into their collaboration, and they’re not getting soft on people, not giving people what we want, what they want. I talk about this all the time. That’s not empathy. That’s like you said. It’s people pleasing. But the aspects of how successful women lead is actually the paradigm that the 21st century needs. I’ve seen studies that show that empathy is the success trait for leaders in the 21st century. So we as women are sort of having a moment, and there’s a lot of men that want to come along on that journey too, who are actually very thankful that they can start to align their own values with success in the workplace, because they have felt like they had to be someone else at work.
Bridgette Boudreau 09:46
Absolutely. I mean, we’re all showing up at work with our, you know, trauma and our fears and our unhelpful patterns, and you know, not that you can I mean, there’s a certain approach. Appropriateness at work, but we’re all pretending like none of that is coming into play, right? And I think the more that you can be conscious within yourself what’s going on and conscious of what’s going on with other people, and just have a space to still, yes, be a professional and appropriate. We have coaches and other helping professionals, but yeah, to also be more real. And I agree, the men that I’ve worked with, and the gay men and non binary folks I’ve worked with are Everybody’s hungry for this space where they can relax and be real. Yeah, so that’s super important to me in my work. Yeah, I was speaking at a
Maria Ross 10:38
very high level leadership coaching circle yesterday. I was like an invited speaker, and I could tell one of the men in the room was really curious, but really struggling to get his arms around. I need to understand what this empathy business looks like at work, because of all the false narratives that he’s heard, because of thinking it’s one thing when it’s actually another. And so it was really great. It’s sort of like conversation by conversation, educating people on it’s okay, like it’s not. It doesn’t mean you’re crying on the floor with your employees every day. That’s not what we’re talking about,
Bridgette Boudreau 11:11
and we’re not holding hands and singing Kumbaya Exactly,
Maria Ross 11:13
exactly. So I want to get to because I think your perspective on just the coaching industry and the industry that’s there to support leaders in their roles. You know, it’s a growing industry. Many people are finally understanding that having an executive coach is actually a sign of strength, not of weakness. And so in your working with clients, can you share more about how they might mistake certain behaviors as confidence, and what clues actually reveal a lack of empathy beneath the surface. So sort of when you’re assessing them and you’re figuring out what their challenges are, how might they mistake those behaviors for confidence, when actually it’s just masking a fear or a lack of empathy within them? How do you get how do you assess that, and how do you get them to that realization for themselves?
Bridgette Boudreau 12:06
Well, I’m going to conversate by telling a story. I love it, and then bring it. Then we’ll see. But when I was a new coach, I I saw there were a lot of shiny coach, you know, coaches that were more experienced than me, and I just thought, Oh, these are, you know, and I would see that I’d be at a live event, and I’d see them over in the corner of the room, and I’d be at the center of the room, and I’d be like, oh, I want to be there, right? It was just like my high school self. And of course, I wanted that, because it’s, you know, I’m going into this new experience, and it’s incredibly vulnerable, and I’m what are the geese do they pattern on to the little goslings? They imprint, imprinting. So in that vein, when there is uneven power dynamic, right? When other people have more perceived or actual power, you’re coming I’m coming into this situation, and I’m new and vulnerable, and I don’t know anything about coaching or how to be a great coach. So I’m taking in what’s told to me, and I also want to make a living and make money at this so there were a lot of messages I got it first that I had to spend a lot of time unwinding like this huge focus on money making. And, of course, we all want to make a living, but there’s a place where it turns into a get rich. Quit scheme. You know, you’re going to be able to be a successful six figure seven now, seven figure coach in six months and all these promises that are not grounded in reality. And so there was that about how amazing this is going to be and how fast I’m going to become successful. And if I’m not doing that, I’m not doing it right. So that’s the other piece that I learned. You know, I picked up myself, and I spend a lot of time unwinding in other coaches, is the reality of what it takes to start a business. And then there’s the you know, we were taught in my coach training, well, you want to go in there and cut them off from talking and identify what the problem is, and if you can’t make a transformation in the first 20 minutes, you’re not doing it right.
Maria Ross 14:24
Wow. Yeah. So there
Bridgette Boudreau 14:28
are these messages out there that people who are learning are taking in, and I think we dial down, either we don’t have the discernment because we don’t know, or we dial down our own discernment because we’re like, oh, this is the leader. This is the best selling author telling me this. This is the most successful coach telling me this. And so that’s a place where folks become vulnerable and then they pick up and replicate these behavior. Years with their own clients or with others in the coaching group. So I think that’s part of what I see, is that we’re picking it up from what people were taught. So it’s important to have other voices out there, but the other voices aren’t always as loud, because these are what I call the coach influencers, right? These are the ones with the big Instagram followings and the splashy photo shoots and the splashy clothes and making big promises and just sort of dripping with confidence and wealth as a way to draw people in.
Maria Ross 15:35
Yeah, and I think what you’re talking about more is about coaches. I’m actually, yes, my question was, actually, when you’re working with a client, with a leadership client, they’re masking they’re setting patterns for themselves of trying to act confidently. And you know, this happens a lot with many leaders that equate false confidence with this is going to show my authority, this is going to show my proficiency, right? And what that actually, when you start to work with a client like that, how do you uncover that they’re hiding behind this mask of false confidence, and where that might be their inability to access their empathy or their unwillingness to access their empathy, like, how do you get to assessing where are diagnosing, I guess, where part of their issue might be. They’re so hanging on to this persona of leadership that they’re unwilling to be empathetic, because they believe that if they show empathy, they’re showing weakness. Have you seen that in clients? And what does that often look like when you’re able to kind of turn the mirror on them and get them to realize and I’m asking this because, as you know, in my new book The Empathy dilemma, the first pillar of effective and empathetic leadership is self awareness. So I know that you do this work a lot where you’re helping leaders unlock self awareness, but what happens when they come to you and they don’t even realize that that’s the thing getting in their way. There’s a lot of questions in there, but yeah,
Bridgette Boudreau 17:05
it’s, it’s a great question. I would say, primarily, I end up working with people who are feeling victimized by people like that. Okay, these are their peers or their direct reports, yeah, because I don’t do the type of coaching, executive coaching, where people get sent to me, and I think that’s a little bit more but that would be a little bit more apropos. But what, what I do with anybody is I’m asking them a lot of questions and also starting to point back to, are you getting the results that you want right there? Yeah, I think that is always, you know, you had got the hand one thing to doctor, Phil, how’s that working for you? You know that, but that, you know, if I can tie back what outcomes the behavior is driving and start to show them those connections, and also build trust with them over time, so that I can start to get to if they’re going to share with me what’s going on underneath here. What were you taught to believe? Right? So starting to get into that role and giving them other tools that they can try that may work better, like you don’t have to put somebody on blast in a meeting, or you don’t have to fire off, if you don’t do that, you don’t have to fire off passive aggressive emails. Deal first with what’s coming up for you. For you,
Maria Ross 18:37
yeah, what are your emotional triggers in this situation. Yeah, and
Bridgette Boudreau 18:41
actually build a resiliency and a tolerance so that you’re not firing off and so how do you buy yourself that space? Say you’re in a meeting and say, Wow, that really to what you said there. That really took me by surprise. I am going to need a minute to think about that one. Let’s put a pin in that and come back to that and either stop the meeting, move on. I mean, depending on the severity of how much that hits you, it’s okay. The, I mean, the, and I didn’t learn this either. It was just like a flash of illumination when somebody I was coaching with said, you know, you can take a beat, yeah, can take some time to think about that. And I think that’s another thing. Is organizations value that immediate response, you know,
Maria Ross 19:34
yeah, that’s even if it’s not the right one,
Bridgette Boudreau 19:36
yeah, and I’m that way. I quick start. I love to brainstorm in the moment, but part of this is learning to not lean into your go, to move and create space between stimulus and response. I mean, I think that is one of the biggest things that you can do. And so I see people all over corporate and. America just firing off slacks and emails, and everybody’s just trying to discharge the feelings that they’re feeling and the discomfort, and so there is just like, hot potato, yeah, creating more controversy, more crisis, you know, more issues that need to be resolved.
Maria Ross 20:18
And I get it because I am that kind of person where I want I have to deal with the issue right away. And it’s almost, for me, it’s physical in that, like I just have to get rid of this feeling of being wrong, this feeling of not being believed, this feeling of like, seeing that the person didn’t understand my intention. And it leads me in really bad directions sometimes, because it’s I am going to fire off the email response and actually send it and not save it in my drafts, like I told myself I would, right? And, you know, like one of the this is just like a small example, but I get so frustrated as one little example, when there’s an error on my charges on my credit card bill, and I’m like, I need to deal with this right now. Like, I don’t care what I’m in the middle of any and their customer service line is closed or their chat bot is closed for the night, that will leave me spinning because I can’t do something about it to get rid of the feeling of anxiety and the feeling of like, I said being wrong, and that can go really sideways When you’re leading a group of people, when it’s absolutely so I and that’s the thing, I’m so empathetic to, that feeling of like I just want to resolve this right away so I can get rid of this feeling
Bridgette Boudreau 21:31
me too. I mean, I am also a number one feeling discharged. Let me get that off my plate. But what I’ve been doing over the years is building a resiliency. So the minute that feeling happens, instead of pushing outward, I’m literally coming into myself. I’m even just as corny as it sounds. I’m putting my hand on my chest and coming into myself and getting curious about what is driving that feeling, and if you and that’s empathy to myself, right? Yes. And if I don’t do that, I am forever getting jerked around by the mouth and hooked by whatever comes my way, by credit card companies and this and that, right? And even going to my partner or my coach or somebody, and saying, Oh, I just did this earlier, like, I just saw something on, you know, social media that kind of hooked me. And I just sat down with her for a few minutes and was like, hey, this kind of hooked me. And I’m just having some feelings about it. And I just, like, had a couple tears and and it was just, I didn’t even need to do anything about it. It’s just something that needed to come up, and I think that’s what you find, is if you create that space, first of all, applying the 8020 rule, I think 80% of the stuff gets resolved, especially at work like, do not just strategically, do not be the first one to respond to that email or that slack, right? Let somebody else. If you are always running into the fray first, let somebody else run in there. See what happens. Right? Be curious. Like I was the classic conflict avoider, like just and I still don’t relish it, but I have gotten to the point where I’m like, clearly, things need to fall apart a little bit. Let’s see what happened,
Maria Ross 23:20
yeah, looking at it with a sense of curiosity instead of dread, yeah, yeah.
Bridgette Boudreau 23:25
And I think it worked. You can have a little bit more of Hmm. Something’s gone awry here, right? Let’s see what happens a little bit. Let me see what unfolds, and what information I can get from that while I’m taking care of my own feelings about this, and it’s also like being willing to let yourself be misunderstood, especially as a leader, because guess what, nobody’s ever going to understand who you really are. Yeah, I always say to leaders, it’s like imagine that you are behind a cardboard cutout of yourself, and that cardboard cutout which everyone is projecting their own stuff onto is what they’re responding to. They don’t even know who you really are, and that’s just human nature. Yeah, you know, it doesn’t mean that we can’t be known as a leader or you don’t have relationships, but just by the nature of the thing, it’s always, you’re always going to be a little bit behind that cardboard cutout. And to me, that is a way to take it less personally. And on
Maria Ross 24:30
the flip side of that, it’s, you know, in bosses that I’ve had and managers that I’ve had that have been just outright psychologically abusive to keep myself grounded is sort of like remembering like there’s someone that loves them, like they have parents, they have sisters, they have a boyfriend, they have, you know, whatever it is. So this is probably not the whole of who they are. And then it becomes an interesting
Bridgette Boudreau 24:56
thought experiment to kind of well. Your Own,
Maria Ross 25:00
maybe hatred or resentment of that person, because then you start to think, wow, what is going on for them that they can’t show up as that person, that other people love when they come into the office? What’s actually going on for them that they feel they have to be this other version of themselves? Because I’m sure their family adores them, and I’m sure they go, you know, when they go to Disneyland, or they go out to dinner with their friends, they’re probably not behaving that way. So something, it’s almost like a moment of empathy for them, of like Something must be going on for them that makes them think they have to act this way at work. And you know, my younger self was not this enlightened to cope with bosses like this, but now looking back, I’m like, I wish I had the wherewithal to just be like, what’s going on for you? And to your point, from earlier, getting them to understand the impact of their behavior, not from a You’re hurting my feelings perspective, but this is how you’re impacting the work. This is how you’re impacting the results that we are achieving because of your behavior? Because
Bridgette Boudreau 26:02
I know for sure if somebody is being a complete jerk at work, they are not in some way, they are not getting the results that they need to get. Absolutely not. So if you’re meeting the numbers people, their turnovers high, morale is low, you know, there’s something that’s not working because that style doesn’t work. And I love what you said about just taking a moment to see where they’re coming from. I mean, isn’t that the empathy superpower and not dismiss what they’re doing? But it’s really for you to do that, because I think underlying all of this is if somebody you know you’re not performing at work, or you’re not getting along with your boss, or they’re bullying you, I think underlying that is some form of i Oh, I’m doing something wrong. Either I am wrong or I’m doing something wrong, because if I did it right, this person would not be doing this to me, and so you start to look at, where are they coming from, what’s going on from them? It’s a way to depersonalize it from you, and that is how you know you build up your own self esteem.
Maria Ross 27:16
Yeah. I mean, we’re both not proposing that people stay in horrible situations, Horrible Bosses. But if you’re able to at least try that approach and take a beat and see if it improves things, and then if it doesn’t, you know, you need to go find somewhere else. But I love what you’re saying there about that we don’t often, you know. And I know why we don’t do it, because we’re in self preservation mode at that point. Yeah, yeah. And I
Bridgette Boudreau 27:40
think too, yeah, if somebody is a horrible Boss, please just and if somebody is a narcissist, like, that’s just a game that you’re never going to win, and the sooner you realize that, get out, yeah, but the tendency too is to vilify people that we’re just disagreeing with. And I think that’s where this can really come in, yeah, is look, everybody at work that we’re disagreeing with is not the enemy. Doesn’t have a personality disorder. You know, all of these things that we do to preserve ourselves, like you were saying, and just letting go of some of that and seeing what happens, you know, again, that’s another place where it’s like, let me just do some changing internally. Yeah, see how that plays out in the situation. Yeah, I agree.
Maria Ross 28:29
I think we throw around the terms toxic manager a little too freely, where it might just be someone who has different expectations. It might be someone who thinks about the work differently than we do. And that’s about, you know, that’s about like you said, that’s about disagreement, that’s not about abuse at work and understanding that we can have empathy and we can have an empathetic interaction with people we don’t agree with. You can actually be empathetic, and you don’t have to agree with someone. It just means you see the situation differently than them. Empathy is about connection, not conversion, and so that person is doing the best they can, and they really believe that is the best way to solve that problem. You have a different perspective. Now, you know, I’m sure one way might be better in the end than another, but, you know, always calling it out as a toxic workplace. That’s why, you know, when I use the word psychologically abusive about two of the bosses that I had. I don’t use those terms lightly, because that is literally what that was in the workplace. Okay, let’s switch gears here a little bit and talk about leaders that are working on their self awareness. They want to understand their strengths, their blind spots, their emotional triggers, and so they want to work with a coach. They know that there’s more that they can learn about how they’re operating. What makes them vulnerable to coaches who lack empathy?
Bridgette Boudreau 29:48
Yeah, important issue. So anytime that we turn off our own discernment and become too deferential to somebody that. That we think has more insight, more power, like I was talking about earlier. So if you’re giving up your authority to the coach, and then you get somebody who is manipulative or who just enjoys being right, or, you know, is throwing something out, and you’re just accepting that, instead of, you know, pushing back into in the coaching conversation. So the way that I see it in the coaching conversation is, I personally, I’m always seeking to even the power structure right? So I don’t want to have power over and but I want to throw out hunches or things that I suspect are going on. An ethical coach will invite the client leader in this case to reflect on that, does that fit? Does that land? Tell me, and I want to know, does it land? Does it not land? And it’s not about me as the coach being right or wrong. It’s about let’s see, let’s get to what’s really going on for you. So if there’s a coach that doesn’t do that and enjoys being more performative in what they’re doing, or is even less skilled and less experienced, but the way to combat that is always to have your own discernment. So leaders that are, you know, let’s say somebody really had their confidence shaken, and they’re going to work with a coach and they’re feeling very shaky in their own self esteem, that’s somebody who could be vulnerable to that. And what I would say to that person is, even in that situation, never give up your discernment. If something doesn’t feel right, bring it up in the session. And if that doesn’t feel safe, then that’s not the coaching
Maria Ross 31:58
relationship. I was going to say, then that’s probably not the place you need to because safety is
Bridgette Boudreau 32:03
fundamental. You and the coaching relationship should be a safe place where you can, if you are conflict avoidant, or that feels difficult, or you can bring those things up and say, you know, that didn’t sit right with me, or I don’t feel like we’re going in the direction that I want to go, and a great coach will pivot with you. And that’s just another point of conversation. It’s not about my hurt feelings or whatever. And
Maria Ross 32:31
I want to just put a plug in here that there are just like, there are not so great therapists, not so great coaches, that hopefully, I would want to encourage people that if they have a negative coaching experience, not to write off coaching forever. It’s just about it’s like dating. It’s like finding the right fit with you know, it’s just like with therapy. I know people that have had horrible experiences one therapist and they will never go back to therapy again. And there are therapists, there are coaches, there are, you know, people that work in different modalities and with differing levels of empathy, differing skill sets. And so I really want to encourage anyone listening who’s really seeing themselves in this scenario to not write off coaching completely, to still try to find the right match. There’s other fish in the sea see if they can find someone that they vibe with a little bit better, and who’s actually providing them the support they need. You
Bridgette Boudreau 33:30
know, I was just going to say vibes like, it’s a weird thing to say, but vibes are so important, because if you are feeling in the flow and you are feeling an openness and like you’re just kind of energetically on the same page. That’s actually really what you want in a coach. And then if you are looking for certain skills and experiences that they have, ask about that I don’t think people when they’re hiring coaches, I don’t they don’t always know what to ask, and I think it’s you can ask about their experience, but what you’re really trying to do is have a conversation. And the best thing to do is I have my prospective clients, just tell me a little bit about what’s happening for them, and then I have a conversation with them about that. Well, here’s my perspective and how I could help. And I’m not just but I’m not just dating them. Well, once you sign up, you know, I will, yeah, everything is available to you, like it’s a miniature coaching conversation. So I would say that’s something to look out for is, do you feel like you actually got a little something even out of this consult that was helpful. Do you feel like the vibes are good, and do you feel like they have whatever skills and experience that you’re looking for that feels relevant? Why do you think
Maria Ross 34:50
it’s common for clients to overlook or excuse some of these unkind behaviors or unempathetic behavior? And then only recognize them later. Is it because they may be in a place where they think, like you said earlier, they’re doing it wrong.
Bridgette Boudreau 35:07
Yeah, I think they’re doing they think they’re doing it wrong. They’ve given up their sense of autonomy to this person. And also there are, sadly, again, talking about the bad actors. But I think it’s important, you know, in terms of coaches, if a coach is so, one of the patterns that bad actors, bad actor coaches, have is they’re great on the sales and marketing side, and then they’re pretty dismal on the service delivery. And so if you got a big song and dance going in, and once you’ve paid the money, you notice a marked change in how you’re being treated. That’s a huge red flag coaches treating people with disdain. Huge red flag coaches who are doing the manipulation tactics. Big Red Flag. Coaches that won’t put up with any disagreement, you know, say you’re you might be part of a mastermind or community as part of your coaching arrangement. And if people are getting shut down or kicked out of the community because they’re raising issues, that is also a big red flag. So I just wanted to point out some things people can look out for that I think can also be really confusing people.
Maria Ross 36:28
I think that’s great advice, because as you know, as hopefully people leaders reading my book are going to engage in some self awareness and try to find a coach. I think understanding the red flags are super important. I’m going to just flip back to the industry for a second and just talk about these genuine coaches and why they might feel, you know, they’re good coaches, they’re genuine. Why might they feel reluctant to promote their work, and how can they move forward without feeling, without feeling like they’re compromising their integrity?
Bridgette Boudreau 36:59
Yeah, so there’s a couple things there. That last bit about how can they move forward without feeling like they’re compromising their integrity? Is a big one, because I think I see some of these good hearted coaches leaning too far back, so they’re overreacting to the bad actors in the industry, so they don’t want any part of that. And so then it’s like, well, I won’t market at all, or I hate all marketing, and they have to come out of that reactionary stance and engage. And the tricky part is you’re probably not if you’re a good hearted coach, cookie cutter solutions and funnels and all of that may or resonate for you, but what is really important to do is take what you want and leave the rest. So don’t entirely throw all of funnels away, because resonate with that. Don’t entirely throw anything away, be curious, maybe try some things out and see if there are bits and pieces. Because what you’re going to do is cobble together something. Yeah, that works for you, but you’ve I mean, the work I do with coaches, the business side, on the business side, is always, how do we find a way for you to connect fits with who you are. And I think that’s critical, and I fall into that trap all the time too. So it’s not a one and done. I think this is a constant, yeah, evaluation that has to happen. So there’s that piece of it. I just want
Maria Ross 38:33
to interject, because, you know, my work is when I do my work as a brand strategist, that’s absolutely the lesson I try to leave entrepreneurs and coaches and consultants with is that you have value, and you want to bring your story and your value to the surface. You want to you don’t want to lie. You want to elevate the truth of your story so the people for whom it resonates can find you like that’s the whole point of marketing. And so I’m just going to put a little plug in here. I have a free master class that talks about the way to construct your brand story in a way that feels authentic and not sleazy and not cookie cutter, because there’s a process you can follow, but you’re going to inject your own personality and values and philosophy and way that you work into that process so that your outputs going to look very different from someone else’s. The vibe of your brand story is going to sound different what you decide to tout as your main points of value. I always use the example of, like Porsche and Honda, they both sell cars, but they lead with different value. And so it’s all about, you know, when we get discouraged about, I don’t want to enter this industry where there’s a bunch of charlatans, you know, that’s, quite frankly, that’s the marketing industry too, right, right? But you can come through, and that’s actually how you can cut through the noise, is just say, here’s what I have to offer. Here’s how you as a client will benefit from working from with me, and here’s how I approach the work. And. How it’s different from how other people approach the work. Does that sound good? Great. Let’s work together. Does that not sound good? Great. You can go find someone that works, you know. So that is the whole thing about the you know, dipping into my brand work again, and I’ll put a link to the free master class that I have, but it’s and that’s even the thing I talk about in the master class is, yes, yes, I have a way that you can work with me when you go further, but if you just get value from the free master class, that’s the way I work. I’d rather have people doing genuine, honest, non snake oil sales, marketing out there and making our world less noisy with junk, then, you know. And if not working with me, moving forward from there is not for you. Totally cool. There’s other people that use pressure tactics to move you into that, like your business will fail if you don’t do business with me. Nobody’s Business is going to fail if they don’t do business with me, necessarily, right? So that’s, I think that’s the important thing, and that’s what I love to talk about coaches with because, especially because their heart is so in their work, and there’s so much about service, they feel like marketing and selling lacks integrity, and that’s only because they’re seeing so much marketing and selling that lacks integrity. But when we shine a light on the marketing and selling that’s genuine and authentic, and actually, in a way, can’t be replicated by anybody else, because Bridgette’s approach to coaching is going to look different than every other coach that’s out there, and the way that you talk about it can look different than every other coach that’s out there. And that doesn’t mean it’s for everyone, it just means it’s going to connect and engage with the right people. So I’m going off on a little bit of a brand rant here, but you know, like you said, you definitely want to encourage those coaches to lean in to promoting their work and if for no other reason, someone needs the impact that you can provide. Someone needs the transformation. It’s kind of your duty to make sure that they can find you in this noisy world exactly rant over, but yeah,
Bridgette Boudreau 42:07
I’m feeling it box girlfriend rolling over here. No, I you hit it so on the head. And I think I love the free resource. I’m going to actually go, yeah, because it’s about
Maria Ross 42:17
empathy. Yeah, it’s about bringing empathy into your marketing and your business model, and that means that Empathy means some people are right for you and some people are not, and you need to have the courage to be able to say, I, even though I want this business, I don’t think this is a good fit. And that is integrity, that is showing that you’re living by your values. If you can be able to say no to someone that’s not a good fit,
Bridgette Boudreau 42:43
yeah, yeah. And, I mean all of that. And the reason why I came up in marketing, and what I love about it, before it gets bastardized, is it’s connecting, yeah, connecting and engaging, and engaging and telling your story. And it doesn’t have to be neat. That’s the other thing. You don’t have to have this perfect elevator pitch. It doesn’t. And as a matter of fact, that’s not optimal. I think just being able to talk naturally about what you do, and so helping people get to that place, and I think that’s, you know, that’s kind of the first part of the question about coaches and where they struggle and the good ones. I mean, they mostly want to do the work. Yeah, I’m a lot the same way. I just want to host my groups and, you know, deliver for my clients. And yeah, focus mostly on that. But then this just happened to me too. So it’s not like this never happens, even if you’re years down the road, but yeah, I kind of fell into that, Oh, I gotta do this technique and that technique, yeah. And then when that didn’t work, it’s like, come back to what I know is Yeah, is, which is me just doing the things that I do, naturally connecting in the ways that work for me. Because that’s always where I’ve succeeded. And so with all of this, everything that we’re talking about, is it empathy included? I think is all about, how do we come to know ourselves, war to know and then be true to ourselves and express that in our business, in our work, in our relationships, you know, express it authentically. And I love that. That’s what we’re talking about here, exactly. That’s kind of the full circle of this whole conversation, is understanding how you show up, and just being able to show up as you are in a way that will actually get you the results that you want. So I love all this. I would love to just have, like, a last question for leaders that are listening, that are like, yes, I want to pursue more of this pillar of self awareness, and even it dips into a little bit of self care. I really believe having a coach or having a therapist or having is actually an act of self care as well. Agree, what are maybe two or three tips you would give a leader who hasn’t embarked on a coaching relationship? For what are two or three quick bites you think they should be looking for in assessing whether a coach is right for them or not. Look for that vibe match, first and foremost. Okay, um, then I would ask some, you know, ask a couple questions and just see what like, how do you Hey, perspective Coach, how do you manage it? If things aren’t going well? You know, tell me about your ideal clients and what those qualities are. Just think about some questions that maybe get them talking a little bit. And then the third point would be, give yourself time to think. That’s what I’m going to say. So back to those pressure talk tactics. Huge red flag, if the coach is like, you’ve got to decide today, or they start belittling you, if you want to talk to another person in your life about it, any semblance of that like you do not want to hire that person personally you want to hire is going to say, here’s all the information. Send you a little follow up, whatever. Go, have a think about it. And you know, here’s what you need to know to make the decision. Let me know if you have any questions, something like that. Yeah,
Maria Ross 46:11
I love that. So we talked about red flags, so I had to bring that up, of like, what are some tips for what you should be looking for? So I wanted to give that counterbalance Bridgette this has been such an insightful conversation. I know we meandered a little bit, but I loved where it led. And I know listeners will get a lot of value. All your links will be in the show notes. And we also want to mention your podcast that you have going on three OG coaches talking shop. Yes, a link to that in the show notes as well. But for folks that are on the go or exercising with us, in their ears right now, what’s one good place that you can send them to find out more information? Bridgette boudreau.com,
Bridgette Boudreau 46:47
and it’ll be in the show notes. Because yes, spelling is hard. Spelling is hard. I love it. I love it. Well. Thank you again for spending so much for having me. It’s so good to see you again, and thank
Maria Ross 47:01
you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Please rate and review and share with a friend or a colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care, be kind For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice, Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
