In today’s climate, where DEIB efforts are under attack, smart organizations know that embracing diverse perspectives leads to better decisions, stronger innovation, and thriving teams. Today, I’m thrilled to talk with Asheli Mann-Lofthouse about how to build and sustain impactful DEIB efforts—whether you’re just starting or already well along the journey.
We dive into how DEIB differs between nonprofits and for-profits, why the ultimate goal is to make DEIB programs obsolete, and what’s needed at every stage—budget, buy-in, ROI, and more. Asheli also breaks down the difference between sponsors and allies, how cis white individuals can spark change in spaces where representation is low, and why your team’s culture matters more than their job responsibilities.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- DEIB isn’t going anywhere, no matter what the politics say. People are just getting creative in how they describe it, talk about it, and structure it.
- While allyship is important, sponsorship is equally important.
- The more diverse voices you have, the better business decisions you’re going to make.
“We shouldn’t need these elaborate structures and all these different ways to make sure we’re being inclusive, because we should already be doing it. It should be holistically built into our system.” — Asheli Mann-Lofthouse
About Asheli Mann-Lofthouse, President & CEO, Cultural Outreach and Racial Equity Collective
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse is an Organizational Anthropologist who draws collectively from her afro-indigenous background and 15 years of DEI, human resources, and organizational development experience to lead the design and implementation of strategies that foster a culture of belonging and inclusion aligned with entity imperatives. With expertise in the development and execution of structured initiatives, Asheli empowers communities and organizations to break down systemic barriers, heal divisions, align value-driven priorities, and support diverse populations, allowing each individual to thrive. Her unique anthropological approach promotes awareness, allyship, and social justice by understanding holistic and diverse human experiences.
Asheli is actively committed to contributing to social and organizational impact efforts in partnership with local, state, and federal organizations, educational institutions, non-profits, communities, and businesses from all sectors in need and has a proven track record of delivering results in equitable [and efficient] process and program management, research, evaluation, and organizational improvement through learning and leadership development. Asheli is a servant leader and lifelong learner, committed to understanding individuals from all perspectives, using anthropological and ethnographic methodologies to overcome barriers for those facing adversity.
Connect with Asheli:
Cultural Outreach and Racial Equity Collective NFP: core-collective.org
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/asheli-mann-lofthouse
Instagram: instagram.com/core_collectivenfp
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books
Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator, and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. In today’s climate where deib efforts are under attack, smart organizations know that embracing diverse perspectives leads to better decisions, stronger innovation, and thriving teams. Today, I’m thrilled to talk with Ashley Mann Lofthouse about how to build and sustain impactful deib efforts, whether you’re just starting or already well along the journey. Ashley is an organizational anthropologist who draws from her Afro indigenous heritage and 15 years of experience in dei HR and organizational development as president and CEO of the Cultural Outreach and Racial Equity Collective. She helps organizations break down systemic barriers, align values with actions, and create cultures where everyone can thrive. Her unique anthropological lens promotes allyship and equity by centering diverse human experiences. We dive into how deib differs between nonprofits and for profits, why the ultimate goal is to make deib programs obsolete, and what’s needed at every stage, budget, buy in ROI, and more, even in today’s tough climate. Ashley also breaks down the difference between sponsors and allies, how CIS, white individuals can spark change in spaces where representation is low, and why your team’s culture matters more than their job responsibilities. So many insights. Take a listen. Welcome, Ashley, to the Empathy Edge Podcast. I’m so glad we finally made this happen to talk about the nuts and bolts of deib, which has been in the news lately.
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 02:27
Yeah, it has been all over the place. So, thank you for having me at this very interesting time.
Maria Ross 02:34
Yes, exactly. And you and I met at the SHRM inclusion conference two years ago and hung out last year, and it was really interesting to see the shift just within a year of where dei is, where it’s going. And so this is going to be a great conversation to get your unique perspective on that, about how you’re working with clients now to empower them to still achieve all the benefits that they can get from a diverse and inclusive workforce. So before we dive into all that, though we heard your bio, I love that you call yourself an organizational anthropologist. So tell us a little bit about that. Tell us about your story and how you got into that this work, and where the anthropology aspect fits in.
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 03:16
Definitely. It really started from my experience in mental health and education. I was getting burned out at work, and I loved what I was doing, but it just wasn’t the right fit. So I thought about how I could continue that journey of supporting people, especially the ones that needed support, but also continue my development and growth in that aspect of education, and from there, I actually had a leader that said to me, you know, what do you even want to do? Like, what would be your dream job? And I was like, Oh, well, if I could be, like, an ancient historical archeologist or anthropologist. And he was like, Oh, why can’t you? So I thought about it, and I said, Well, anthropology is just people. It’s the study of people, past, present, future, place, and time. How can I use that interest that I have of the human experience to transform what I’m doing now at work? And that’s exactly what I did. I did a little bit of research and decided that was the path I was going to take, and then shifted into the corporate environment so that I could have more visibility and experience in that space, just kind of understanding holistically the evolution of humans.
Maria Ross 04:31
Yeah, well, and talk about, you know, cultural study like, that’s really, it’s really taking a microcosm of all these really interesting cultures, everything from the most inclusive, innovative, creative cultures to like soul sucking cultures that are portrayed in movies and TV, right, everything in between. I come from a background of working over a decade in tech and in Silicon Valley, and that is so different from when I worked in the Midwest, from when I worked. On the east coast and in different industries too. So it really is an anthropological treasure chest, I guess, when you’re looking at different cultures within an organization. So how did you specifically get into the diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging Lane from that work?
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 05:16
Yeah, it’s interesting because I was doing te and I work before it had a name, and working with vulnerable populations has just always been something that was important to me, because I come from several identities that are aligned with different vulnerable populations and underrepresentation. And so understanding how my experience is also relative to theirs, and how I can support them better than maybe somebody who hasn’t experienced some of these things. From there, as I was kind of designing my path through my introduction to formal education with anthropology, I was like, this is exactly how I can get in the DE and I space, you know, I had to start in a different way. I went into operations for a bit to try to get the feel behind that organizational development, which is also, you know, how I transform my work. But from there, I was like, Yeah, this just solidifies my goal for myself, is that I know that thinking about the experience that people have in the workplace and in the environments that they occupy is more important than the job that they’re doing, because the job that they’re doing can’t be done well or right unless they are well, right. And that was really the kind of caveat that kicked back into, you know what it’s the DEI space for me, because it’s all about having that diverse perspective through inclusion by equity.
Maria Ross 06:51
So what do you make of the backlash we’re experiencing right now, and how do you find a way forward in your work? Because clearly, I mean you and I both know there are a multitude of benefits to an organization that creates an equitable, inclusive, diverse workforce, and you know, putting aside the fact that those particular words have been politicized and vilified, really what? How is that impacting your work? And what are you seeing with your clients in terms of continuing to do that work when they know it’s going to benefit the organization?
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 07:23
Absolutely wonderful question, because this is something that I think, even before November, per se, when I saw you last, even before all that, people started to shy away from it, right? They started getting rid of their de and I teams. They stopped using the word. They changed things within their organizational structure. And everyone kept saying, Well, what about when de and I goes away and de and is going away? Aren’t you scared? And I have consistently said it’s not going anywhere. People are just getting very creative about how they talk about it and how they structure it. And in all reality, I’ve said this many, many times, we shouldn’t even need a dei department, right? We shouldn’t need these elaborate structures and all these different ways to make sure we’re being inclusive, because we should already be doing it. It should be holistically built into our system, right? So if you ask me, we’re kind of heading in that direction. We’re getting rid of all these words that trigger people and set them off into something they just don’t understand, so that we can do these things systemically. And that is exactly the goal,
Maria Ross 08:37
right? And it’s really just about embedding the mindset into your culture, it sort of would be like if we had a department of integrity or a department of honesty. I mean, I feel that way when I talk about my empathy work too, right? It’s actually just a value and a philosophy that enables the organization to operate at its fullest capacity. That’s really what we’re talking about. We’re not talking about giving people a pass on their competence to put them in a role. We’re not talking about unfairly giving roles to people that are not qualified. I mean, I don’t even know how that got caught up in everything, but to your point, you know the reason we had to start with sort of systemically putting it in there is because it was not systemically in there before. And so when you work with organizations, what are I mean, I know you work with some very unique organizations, not necessarily all for profit. And so for you, what’s the difference when you’re working with an organization that’s more mission driven doing this work, versus an organization that is a very much a for profit organization. Are there differences in how they implement inclusion and equity programs?
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 09:46
That is, I think, very relevant to the space that we’re in right now, in de and I there is a difference, but I don’t necessarily think the difference fully comes from the organizational structure. Yeah. So I work with all organizations and industries through from nonprofit to educational institutions, community entities, corporate environments, whatever that looks like. What I find is that regardless of the entity structure, it’s the people that change how we implement. It’s not necessarily the organizational structure. It might not even be the industry or whatever it’s the individual people that are tasked with that job of saying, we need this to happen. I think I have a really good example where I was submitting an RFP for a community entity. So basically, a city of XYZ, in like the third stage, you have to meet with the council, and they get to ask you all the questions. It’s basically like an interview, and one of the gentlemen says, I have a question. We have a problem, you know, and this is closer to the end of the interview, and I’m like, Okay, what did I do? And he’s telling me, internally, we’re butting heads because we really want to move this project along very fast, but to do that, we have to, I mean, do we just go with the people we know in our back pockets that can help us push this along? Because they have the visibility and they have the high powered positions and all these other exciting things that these people just have. Or do we move forward with the way that we want to implement this committee to get this equity plan done? And I said, I love that you’re thinking about the fact that you should do this the right way, but ultimately you’re considering doing it the wrong way, and that’s what they decided. Because it was faster, it was easier, they didn’t have to work hard. I told them very plainly, the whole reason you’re doing this is to support those people and to get their voices heard. If you do this without them, you might as well scrap your whole program. It’s not going to be successful, right? And that’s what they did. Wow, so that’s unfortunate. It’s about the individual people and their perspective and their understanding, you know you talk about in your talks about developing empathy. It is really it, like you said it’s beyond value, right? We think about this as a perspective. It’s a holistic way of viewing the world and how you experience other people. And I think if you don’t have those different perspectives, you just don’t get it sometimes, and that is usually when you see the differentiation between the organizational
Maria Ross 12:40
choices. What do you think about organizations? Because I’ve been part of organizations where I’ve tried to push through dei initiatives, and I haven’t always been successful, and partly it’s because I’m a white woman of a certain socioeconomic status, and I see the need. But if there’s no one, if the need is there, because there are not diverse voices, if you want to include those people, how can you if they’re not even in the room, but you want to create an organization that in the future, they will be and they they will have a space and a place and the opportunity to be heard. It sometimes feels like, and I know I’ve talked to other fellow white people that feel that way too, where they they’re seeing the need, but because of the way the organization is systemically now, they don’t have those other diverse voices to lead the effort. So they they come in there, and it feels weird that they’re the ones asking for this. How do you help organizations deal with that fact that those players aren’t in place yet, but the goal is to actually get more of them in place and give more of them a voice.
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 13:48
That is a wonderful thought, because I I’ve had that exact experience. I have had the wonderful opportunity of working in some very, very diverse environments, from backgrounds to cultures, to just people in general. However, there was one organization that I worked for that was very behind the curve on de and I, and this is 10 years ago, and they knew it, which was something that I very highly respect. If you can say I’m way back here. I don’t get it. I want to, but I just, you know, and I’m not there yet. If you could admit that I respect that more than somebody that’s way up here that says I have all of these values and I love to do all these amazing things, but they don’t really mean it. They don’t have the commitment, and they don’t actually do those things, right? So my time spent with this organization, who knew they were behind but wanted to be there, knew that they couldn’t make such a jump so far ahead, right? They knew they had to take baby steps. So in that instance, they did something that I think we see a lot of organization do, sure. And that would be finding the one, finding the one right, having that one lead the charge, and she was happy to do it right, because she has to, and because she has to, like, it’s your job. You’re being told that, hey, this is what you’re going to do. This is why we want you to do it, and you’re going to do it right. And especially for women of color or for certain different cultural identities that have this idea that they have to perform above and beyond at a specific level of professionalism. What are you going to say? So you do it, and it was interesting. It was uncomfortable, because everybody knew, especially when it was Black History Month, and the only every year, every year you’re getting put on there. And the way that we combated it was to tell them the fact that you’re taking these steps is fantastic, but here’s a strategy to get from where we are to where we want to be instead of what we’re doing right now, because it’s not working. And I think a lot of the times we at humans in general, get stuck in this way of living, this way of working, it’s how it’s always been. And we’re trying to change things. Let’s just do a little bit at a time, which is fine, but you can’t expect change if you’re doing things the same way, right? And and I think that’s where that strategy development really, really came into play. It took us a little bit to get the buy in we needed. We had to pitch a couple of times, but when we finally understood what they needed and wanted to see and hear, we were able to get what we needed. We were able to grow the team. This was the first ever de and I department right in this organization. It’s a global organization,
Maria Ross 16:57
but what happens if you’re in an organization that the people committed to to it are not, are not the underrepresented groups. What if it is just because everyone does in that organization look and sound the same? It feels inauthentic in a way, and also it feels disrespectful to say, Well, I’m seeing that we only have a few diverse voices. I as the white person, I’m gonna come in, and I’m deciding we need dei but maybe those people always thought that was needed, but they didn’t have enough of a coalition within the organization to to push it through. So do you become a sponsor? Do you come become a champion of that? And then how do you avoid being a white savior in that situation, right? It’s that’s the balance, like, how do you how do you help companies or organizations navigate that I
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 17:48
love, that you use the word sponsor and not ally. While I think allyship is important, I think sponsorship is equally as important, because especially when we think about our white counterparts, or people that are maybe, you know, higher up in the hierarchy of authority, at at our employer, our employment, it is those people that can say these things behind closed doors when the people that you’re trying to support are not there, right? That’s what the sponsorship is, compared to the ally that’s going to stand by your side, right? So with that being said, I think that the way to avoid it is to make sure that you’re doing it in the quote, unquote, right way. And the way that I found to be the most success, successful way is to bring in those voices. So obviously, we’re saying, maybe they don’t have any people of color that work here. Maybe they don’t have any folks with disabilities. Folks with disabilities and neuro divergence that work in this environment. So, and we’re trying to attract Right, right, right? We want to get them here, but they see that this is what we are. Why would they want to be here
Maria Ross 18:52
exactly? Exactly? It’s like a chicken or the egg thing, right? Yeah? Like,
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 18:56
yeah. And you have to not only change your strategy, but I think that you have to be very, very, very transparent about that. And I’ve actually seen an organization do that by saying, Wow, we did not realize how badly we were doing in this space. So we’re going to put it all out there. And this is another very, very big company in the United States, and they put it all out there for everyone to see. And they were like, This is embarrassing, but these are the eight things that we are committed to doing, to fixing this. And they brought in the external help. They brought in these, you know, how do they make this a visibly public situation? And obviously not all organizations are so big they want to make it public, but that was what worked for them. Because of their status in society, they could put this out there, and now it literally everywhere you go with this organization, you can see that they were actually serious in what they were doing. You can see it in their. Products. You can see it in their marketing. And I think that is something that I’ve chatted about with one of my recent organizations that I’ve supported, to say you want XYZ consumers, but your packaging says that’s not, that’s not my consumer. So how do we meet them in the middle? Because, like you said, we’re not out here trying to just give give things away and dumb down our systems. There’s no need for that, because we’re not. The whole point is that we are all on the same level, right, right? We’re not. We’re not shifting here. We’re all on the same level. Not everybody just has the opportunity to reach, to reach that level, right? You know, right? Well,
Maria Ross 20:49
it’s where we’re sourcing people from, it’s where we’re hiring people from, it’s who we’re partnering with. It’s all of it. And it’s not because, you know what, what gets twisted by people who who disagree with dei is that, well, then you’re using race or ethnicity or gender as the basis for trying to find someone kinda but not really, because the point is, the more diverse voices and perspectives you have, the better business decisions you’re gonna make. So just like you would be looking for someone in in your sales team who has a certain skill or has a certain experience, just like any other job requirement or job skill, we’re looking at that, but we’re also going to make sure that person can do the job. We’re not just going to give them a pass because they it’s like, oh, I’m going to hire you as a salesperson because you’re really outgoing, you’re horrible at closing sales, but because you’re really outgoing, I’m going to hire you as a salesperson. That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about actually finding the people within those diverse populations, within those underrepresented populations, who can
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 21:54
also do the work. Yes, exactly. I’m
Maria Ross 21:59
getting on my soapbox a little bit, but I’m, I’m preaching to the choir
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 22:02
here. That’s the whole point. That’s the point of the podcast. I know exactly. But yeah, it’s actually funny, because my first experience in like a formal and I was on a committee, and within that committee, not only were we supporting de and I for the employees, which is kind of where I I started to shift, right, like the beginning of my work was all for my clients, for my, you know, partners, for all the external and at in this role, serving as my first de and I Committee Chair, I was like, Oh, what about the internal aspect? So that was my shift, but that still informed our external outreach, right? So in this organization, our clients are students, they were children. And with this we’re like, Okay, we have all these people that are super diverse. We’re like, right? But the culture that they are diversified from is a very specific culture that you would expect to be in this environment. So therefore that’s out the window. You scrapped that idea. Right point is, is that you have no black and Latino or indigenous individuals here at all, because the sentiment is smart people are white or Asian, and that is not the case, right? Turned out it was exactly like you said. It was the sourcing. We’re not Where are you going to recruit for these students? Oh, you’re going to the high end Ivy League educational institutions and the private schools. That’s not where you’re gonna find the people that can’t afford to go there, right? Which means, just because they’re smart enough, the fact that they don’t have the money, or they live in the wrong side of town, they don’t have the opportunity. And that is that full circle. So we started expanding. We started saying, Okay, what about this area of Illinois? What about going across the border? What about doing X, Y, Z, looking at those demographics of the specific areas that we typically would recruit from to say, how do we expand that? Because one of the places that we were recruiting from actually has an extremely high population of different cultural backgrounds, different demographics, ethnically, socioeconomically, but we’re still only pulling these kids, why and institutions within those places. So it’s layered, right, right. Of course, there’s all these layers, but ultimately it was like, this needs to happen. And it was kind of finding the next steps, pivoting, moving this way, dividing, redefining strategy. And it worked out. It was exciting. I
Maria Ross 24:47
love that. I love that. So talk to us a little bit about, you know, people, listening, leaders, listening might be at different stages of the journey, and let’s put aside whatever we’re going to call this thing to avoid being in the crosshairs of critics. That’s right. We know we need it. We know we need diversity of thought and experience in our workplace. You’re not listening to this show unless you believe that. So people are different stages. Some are at the like we don’t we’re not doing any initiatives, but we know something needs to change. Some are pretty far along in the stage that they’re at. So, you know you talk about the difference in addressing budget and buy in and programs and engagement and even ROI at different stages. So could we maybe break it down into three different stages of like beginner, intermediate and expert. So if you are a beginner, you’ve got no you’ve got no systemic dei programs. You know that a problem exists. You know that you need to get something off the ground. Maybe you listening. Have been charged with that. What are some of the ways at that stage that you address budget and buy in and engagement at the at the infancy
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 25:55
of it? Yeah, um, the the infancy of it, I think, is usually the hardest part, because you’ve already been able to identify that there’s a problem, right? But clearly we’ve gotten to this stage of a problem in the first place. So it’s challenging, but the way that I found seems to work best in the infancy stages to get that buy in, is to be able to produce the ROI, right? We think about the fact that we want and need these changes, some people get it. Some people don’t, but you have to reach the ones that have the decision making power, and to do that, you have to prove to them why this is going to benefit them. There’s always a what’s in it for me, and it doesn’t have to be spelled out that way exactly, but giving them the opportunity to say what this does not only impacts this. Which makes us look good, makes us feel good,
Maria Ross 26:58
impacts revenue, impacts sales, impacts the markets, we can address all the things, right? So you’re basically saying at that phase, you need to build the business case based on data and based on tying it into the objectives of the organization, not just we should do this because it’s the right thing to do, even though we all know it’s the right thing to do, it’s like we’ve got to make a business case for it. Is what you’re saying, right?
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 27:20
Absolutely. And I think that people forget that just because it’s the right thing to do doesn’t mean it’s going to happen, and building that business case to convince them is what’s really going to just get the needle moving right? Next steps, fine, but just to get the needle moving, you have to convince them as to why this is important. Otherwise, it’s going to be a one off, right? It’s going to be one and done, or they’re going to check the box if they even do it at all, right?
Maria Ross 27:45
And what do you recommend? I mean, I’m sure there’s, like, hundreds, but what’s a, what’s a good, recommended, small step someone could take to actually get a quick win, or not, maybe not even a quick, but a substantial win. Would it be in hiring? Would it be in in I don’t even know, like, what would be the first where would you kind of look, what were, what would be some of the places you would look to to start to get that first
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 28:09
small win. I think it really depends on the type of organization or institution that you are. Okay, if you are an organization that has very visible internal aspects, then hiring might be your priority. That also can inform some other aspects of what tiny, little moves you can make. But that is a pretty good one. The challenge is, is that if you are a small business, or if you’re you know, private or nonprofit or anything like that, or you’re just not in the public eye, that doesn’t give a lot of the authority leaders the visibility that they might feel that they need. And I know that sounds gross, but unfortunately that has that’s what we’re seeing, right? The other thing that I think is really beneficial is, and I know this is played out, I know we’re gonna hear it, but a cultural calendar that is the easiest way, the simplest way, do a little bit of research, get a little graphic design and create a real cultural calendar for the entire year. And however you push that out, I think makes a difference on the impact. Of course, you know, but having the ability to say we are recognizing, you don’t have to say you’re celebrating it. You don’t have to do anything just acknowledging, acknowledge it. And that’s it. And it could be the big six. It could be one every month. There are so many ways to when you think of Black History Month, Women’s History Month, oh, I cried, right? Like so there are the big six, right, which everybody knows, which are not scary, right? Right, right? But. And there’s a few that you’re like, Oh, do we really want to talk about that? But then again, there are some that are super cool, like we have mental health awareness month, Asian Pacific Islander Appreciation Month, or, excuse me, Heritage Month and Military Appreciation Month all in the same month. So think about all the intersectionalities that we have there that we can identify, that we can recognize. There are so many different ways to do it very, very simply, right? That just to start, yeah, and then all those people who either feel this stuff or are part of any of those identities, or maybe they’re, you know, Hispanic, and they’re like, Oh, I can’t wait until my month comes, right? Like, that’s exciting, right, right? That is gonna kick start it, okay? And that’s it.
Maria Ross 30:49
Well, that sort of creates a mindset of appreciating other perspectives and cultures. So, I love that. I love that. Okay, so now let’s go to the let’s go to the intermediate. They maybe they have a head of deib. Maybe they’re calling it something else right now, but they’ve got some initiatives. They’ve got a little bit of budget. They do their cultural calendar, they, you know, but they’re kind of seen a little bit as more performative than having some real impact on the business and on the organization’s success. What are some ways that they can move to the next level to have some material impact to the organization?
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 31:28
Yeah, I see this is the most common stage.
Maria Ross 31:33
This is the most common stage where they’ve done a few things but not really connected,
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 31:37
yeah, yeah, a lot of performative ideals. They want to do something, don’t really get the buy in to do something, or or they really don’t want to do anything, and they’re just happy with where they are, which is that’s a thing, but this stage is where, yes, budget is still important, but the buy in is really what you need, because you’ve clearly gotten far enough, along with saying, this is the ROI, this is why we should do it. And they’re like, Yeah, okay, fine, you’ve convinced me. But do you have full buy in to be able to make the impact that you want? This is the phase that I recommend really diving into strategy. Because if you can develop your holistic strategy, kind of in this middle area here, that’s going to push you to that next level of being advanced, doing the things that you want to do, making the impact you want to make. Inside this area is where you start to talk about how the rest of the organization can come along on that journey. And that’s kind of where you see the buy in come from different areas of the business before. Maybe it’s just HR, maybe it’s just learning, maybe it’s just D, E and I, but in this place where you find yourself doing all the work, and it looks and feels performative if you bring in your key players from different areas of the business, not to necessarily embed into their systems yet, but to just have that extra voice, especially if you are a director. If you are you know more of a hierarchical title, you can talk to your peers and get them on your side. That way. We’re all having the same conversation when we’re discussing the next steps. We talk about strategy development and we talk about the partnership internally to say, Oh, this, yeah, we’re on the same page here. So now we’ve got four people working together instead of just me and my team, yeah. And that buy in kind of comes with all the other people, kind of sending these whispers around, how, oh, wow, this is going well. This is doing we can do more.
Maria Ross 33:59
Yeah? What? This is sparking so many tangential questions on this. What are some good metrics that if you are committed to this, you can make a commitment to measure and be okay with the fact that maybe the metric didn’t hit the mark in a certain quarter, like being completely transparent of you know, this is what we’re putting this program in place. These are a couple of the metrics we’re trying to hit. Let’s reevaluate this in six months or year end. Ooh, we didn’t hit it. What? What are some of those metrics that the most successful dei B teams you’ve worked with look at to continue to make the business case.
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 34:41
I think the first and foremost what you mentioned about not hitting that mark, it happens all the time. That doesn’t mean we scrap the idea. That just means we need to figure out the one or two things that we have to change, and that’s okay, right? So those metrics, it they come down to what exactly your implement. Content. Is it something that is tangible? Is it something that is systemic, like, are we thinking about something within HR and talent development? Are we thinking about learning and growth, or are we thinking about programming and projects, right, or retention, or anything like that? Exactly like, there’s so many different aspects of how we can look at this. So I think initially, especially when you’re in this phase, you’re thinking about the the impact you’re talking about hitting these metrics or not, and how you continue to kind of see yourself climb. One of the bigger things is sentiment. It is employee experience, because your employees make your company work, and if your employees are saying that they’re not feeling this impact, or it feels performative, you know, all these different things, then that should mean something to you. The problem is, is that a lot of organizations send out, you know, employee surveys once or twice a year, but they don’t do anything afterwards. They’re like, thanks so much for sharing that with me. Yeah, yeah, talk to you next year like there’s no action. So being very, very transparent in the fact, not only with your leadership, but with your employees, to say, one of our metrics is measuring employee satisfaction and sentiment, and that is not just on the nominal level, also thinking about how we’re going to categorize and code these different words that are coming up in these thought bubbles from all the comments that people are sending. Because if we just go by a Likert scale of one to five, we’re like, oh, okay, you can make it say anything you want it to, of course, yeah. But if you’re looking at actual words from actual people. You can categorize them into thoughts and feelings and sentiment and experience that is going to not only spark a couple fires, right? Goodness, no way, but also get you some more of that. Just that oomph, yeah, you can measure it. And I will tell you when you are measuring these things, if you’re trying to do some stuff and you’re not quite getting there, it’s not going to look great, and it’s not going to feel great, right? And and that it’s not good, right? But the fact that you are taking it and you’re being transparent with your your employees, saying, We’re doing this because we actually want to make change, but having the somewhat visible structure of how you’re going to implement that change is important. There are so many organizations that are like, Yeah, well, we do that. We have a strategy. We have all these plans. They don’t talk about that with the employees or the team members, the people that are asking how they feel and what they want, they don’t talk about the plan. So they’re like, Oh, they’re not doing anything, right? That’s great, right? We have to be transparent as much as we can be
Maria Ross 37:52
absolutely and so I have a couple of other questions, but first, I want to get to sort of the last phase of if you are a pretty mature organization, if you’re a Costco, you’re publicly shouting from the roots rooftops that this is a good business strategy for you to better connect with your customers. What does that look like from there? Do you sort of, I mean, I would think that the tendency for organizations is to sort of rest on their laurels. But what would be, what’s next for an organization like that that’s already sort of working. It standard, yeah. Where do they go from there?
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 38:24
Yeah. One of the things that I think is really important, that I don’t think enough people do in general, is continuous benchmarking, I think, especially because this is such an ever changing, dynamic world. And whether you’re in the US, whether you’re in, you know, North America as a whole, or anywhere across in Europe or the United anywhere, it is so dynamic, so nuanced in all the places and spaces. So to be able to say, I know what’s happening in all those spaces, especially the ones that are relative to me, is very important. Once you get to that space, it’s easy to say, I’m done, because we did a good job, but there’s always more to be done, and we know that, and you know that, right? So the way that you can do that is by leveraging your research, leveraging your benchmarking and leveraging your visibility to say, how do I now bring these other people along? Be a leader in the game, right? Say we are now going to partner with other organizations who believe in this work, that are committed to this, but maybe don’t have either the visibility, the buy in the budget, whatever they’re missing. How can you support them? And that’s not just organizations as in, you know, corporate entities, thinking about even small businesses, especially for a lot of the companies and businesses that I support, they are local organizations, or they have homes in local organizations. You know, it’s like. How do we impact the communities that we are sitting in, the people that reflect the population that we support, and it’s going to those places and spaces and using your privilege to do that work on the ground? So there’s lots of ways, but I think it really comes down to just bringing other people along in any capacity that you can well. And
Maria Ross 40:25
I would imagine that too, when you get to that level, it’s sort of like, okay, where else impacting the business? Can we have an impact? We can have an impact on our supply chain. We can have an impact with our vendors. We can have an impact with our you know, maybe a different market, reaching a different customer market. So sort of like, once you sort of, it’s kind of like what I always say about empathy, once you get your own house in order, you can start to look at where, where you touch, and where, what other groups are in your sphere of influence.
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 40:54
That’s exactly right, and that’s why, you know, I shared with you, I designed my organization as a collective, because there are things that I can’t do, or I don’t know how to do, or I don’t want to do, right? So working with my network of people to say, what do I touch? That you also touch, but you do it differently, or you you love this or that. You know that’s the whole point. It’s that web that works, and especially when we think of companies and businesses and in educational institutions, you have your hands in everything. Why are we not sharing those experiences? Right? We’re not sharing the strategy, which is just wild to me. If you really believe in this and you’re committed to these things, and these are your core values, share that with the world so that those people can do the same thing?
Maria Ross 41:41
Yeah, absolutely, I love it. Collaboration is one of my words for 2025 so I love it, inclusion. Okay, I’m gonna ask you a curveball last question. But again, given the climate we’re in, if you could choose the way we rebrand this work, what words would you use? I do like
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 42:00
inclusion. I think that inclusion is it’s easy to swallow for people that don’t understand equity, but it kind of can encompass diverse perspectives, thoughts, experiences, and it can include equity if you know how to make it happen, right? But another word that I really like, which I have been seeing a ton of, and this is probably just the scientist in me. I do love I love culture. I think that culture is very reminiscent of an individual’s lived experience, but it’s also relative to their current, actual physical experience. It can be relative to their ethnic background. It can be relative to the food they eat, the employers, cultural experience in that bubble. And I think that it’s just a it’s a very good word to be able to have anybody understand what you’re saying, right to know when I say culture, yeah, that’s what I mean. Well, I talk about
Maria Ross 43:08
yogurt exactly and inclusive and culture. This is what I love about those words. When people really understand what they mean, it leaves room for the overrepresented populations too, like, I’m just gonna be really crass. Like, yes, you too. White Guy, cisgender white guy. Like, yes, we want you to feel included too. It’s not about excluding you. It’s about including everyone else within the culture. And so yes, we want to meet your needs as well. And I think that’s the fear of people is Dei, if I am a cisgender white person, is going to take something from me when we have to understand that actually creating that inclusive culture includes you too, yes, and you know your background in mental Health like that creates a better environment for everyone.
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 44:02
Absolutely. I get and I have this conversation a lot, yeah, because they’re like, What do you mean? And I’m like, yeah, the rich, educated, affluent, Caucasian man is absolutely included in all of these things. Yes, yes, his experience is also not his fault if he was a trust fund baby that got college for free because his dad was a legacy that is not his fault, right? Right? Like, that’s kind of the whole point is that,
Maria Ross 44:31
and it is a perspective, it is another perspective, a diverse perspective, right?
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 44:36
You know, it’s funny, because in my, in one of my workshops, the power of storytelling. That’s exactly what we talk about. We talk about sharing your story to develop empathy, to impact inclusion, whatever it is you’re trying to do, how using personal narratives really can do that. And what I find is that you’ve got this whole. Whole group of people from, I mean, visibly, visibly. You can tell these people are not from the same spaces and places. However, what we see is during the story, excuse me, this storytelling part, all the faces and the eyes and the head nods and the shifts where they’re like, oh, wow, that happened to me. Or oh, my sister experienced that things that bring that relatability between cross culturally that they don’t expect. And that’s where it’s like, Oh, wow. This person can absolutely understand my perspective if I tell it to them in a way they need to know. Because maybe this guy over here doesn’t know, because he’s never been around it, he doesn’t know how to process it, right? But if you help him get there, yeah,
Maria Ross 45:53
I love it. Okay, well, gosh, we’ve gone long, and I don’t care, because this has been awesome.
45:57
Every time we talk, we talk
Maria Ross 46:00
forever. I love it. So we are gonna, of course, have all your links in the show notes, and of course, a link to your organization, cultural outreach and racial equity collective. And for folks that are on the go, maybe listening on their exercise bike or whatever, what’s one good place that they can find out more about your work.
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 46:17
We are pretty active on Instagram right now and then, of course, our website, if you want to connect on LinkedIn, I’m usually we’re usually sharing back and forth, but we will be planning a newsletter soon, so keep an eye out on all of those platforms so that we can stay in touch.
Maria Ross 46:36
Great. Yeah. And on Insta, you guys are our core underscore, collective. NFP, yeah, and folks looking for you so great. Ashley, thank you so much for sharing your insights today and having this great conversation, especially during these you know, very turbulent times, and just reorienting us to the fact that this is not about exclusion at all. It’s about inclusion of everyone, whether you are underrepresented or not, but it’s about lifting the voices of everyone and giving them that opportunity. So thank you so much for sharing your insights today,
Asheli Mann-Lofthouse 47:10
absolutely, and thank you for having me. I always enjoy listening to you and just chatting with you back and forth. I think that having the perspective that you share with the world is just It’s heartwarming. So I appreciate you, and it’s so wonderful to see you. Thanks. Thanks for having me.
Maria Ross 47:25
Thank you, and thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do, rate, review or share with a friend or colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events, please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place. You.
