If you’ve been with me a minute, you know that leadership paradigms are changing. Yet it’s causing an unspoken crisis for male leaders in particular. Being empathetic and showing vulnerability are not consistent with how men have been socialized or how many women leaders were advised to lead. But that ain’t gonna fly anymore in today’s market or with today’s talent! Leaders disrupting this status quo need to be strong against the push back and show the great results.
Today Carol Vallone Mitchell answers the popular question of whether women leaders are “better at” empathy than men and what role gender plays in successful collaborative leadership. We discuss how empathy is a critical trait of collaborative leaders, and she shares how leadership effectiveness has traditionally been framed in stereotypical masculine terms – and why those are no longer effective for success today.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Empathy is a foundation for collaborative leadership.
- Acquiescence, submission, and people pleasing are not empathy. If you are being burnt out by “empathy” then you’re probably not actually practicing empathy.
- Gender is irrelevant in being an effective leader, employee, or human being. It is how you choose to lead that really matters.
“Society teaches young men that to grow up and be successful, they don’t dare express their emotions- a lot of it is self-control. And I think that’s how empathy is perhaps a bit of a threat for men because that message is still very much out there.” — Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D
Episode References:
Amer Kaissi, The Empathy Edge podcast: Humbitious Leadership Equals SuccessDenise Roberson, The Empathy Edge podcast: Mistakes Leaders and Boards Make When Thinking About Purpose
About Carol Vallone Mitchell, Founding Principal, Talent Strategy Partners, Author Collaboration Code and Breaking Through “Bitch”
Carol Vallone Mitchell, PH.D. has an instinct and a passion for understanding what makes people tick. This has led her to focus her career on identifying and developing leaders who will build and nurture the right workplace culture and drive results. She co-founded Talent Strategy Partners in 2001 and has brought her expertise to numerous companies, including many in the Fortune 500. Carol is the author of two books based on her research. “Collaboration Code: How Men Lead Culture Change and Nurture Tomorrow’s Leaders” and “Breaking Through ‘Bitch’- How Women Can Shatter Stereotypes and Lead Fearlessly.” She has written numerous articles featured in publications including Fast Company, Chief Learning Officer, SHRM Executive, Workspan, Thrive Global, and Forbes; and, has been featured on various radio programs and podcasts.
She received her doctorate in Organizational Behavior from the University of Pennsylvania
Warm weather and swimming enthusiasts, Carol and her family are “honorary residents” of Hawaii, spending much of their time off over the last 25 years in Kona. She is an avid tennis fan and plays acoustic guitar.
Connect with Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D.:
Talent Strategy Partners LLC: tsphr.com
Author Site: carolvallonemitchell.com
Collaboration Code rb.gy/tjjxel
Breaking Through “Bitch” amzn.to/2zmooDA
X: twitter.com/cv_mitchell
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/carolvallonemitchell
Facebook: facebook.com/collaborationcode
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. If you’ve been with me a minute, you know that leadership paradigms are changing. Yet it’s causing an unspoken crisis for male leaders in particular, who due to socialization or fear of losing power or appearing weak, either cling to old models, or get pushback for embracing the new. being empathetic listening showing vulnerability are not consistent with how many men have been socialized, and how many women leaders were advised to lead. But that style just ain’t gonna fly anymore in today’s market, or with today’s talent, and leaders disrupting the status quo, need to be strong against the pushback and show the great results. Today, my guest is Carol, the lone Mitchell, PhD, a leadership and culture adviser and researcher with expertise in women’s leadership. Her career focus has been on identifying and developing leaders who will build and nurture the right workplace culture and drive results. She co founded talent strategy partners, and has brought her expertise to numerous companies, including many in the Fortune 500. Carol is the author of two books based on her research, collaboration code how men lead culture change and nurture tomorrow’s leaders and breaking through bitch, how women can shatter stereotypes and lead fearlessly New York Times best selling author Adam Grant said about her book collaboration code. Quote, there are many books about how women can lead in a world dominated by men. But Carol Mitchell is one of the few to explore how men can lead effectively without dominating and quote. Today she answers the popular question of whether women leaders are better at empathy than men, and what role gender does and does not play in successful collaborative leadership. We discuss how empathy is a critical trait of collaborative leaders who often get pushback from others clinging to the past. Carol shares how leadership effectiveness has traditionally been framed in stereotypical masculine terms, and why those are no longer effective for success today. And Carol shares how well female versus male leaders have done during the pandemic, to keep their teams thriving. Take a listen. Harrell, welcome to the empathy edge. As you know, I’ve been so looking forward to this conversation. Since we talked it feels like eons ago when I was working on my first book, The Empathy edge. So welcome to the podcast.
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 04:13
Thank you, Maria. I have also been looking forward to this. And it was quite a long time ago that we talked
Maria Ross 04:20
it was it was before the world turned upside down. I think it was lapsus 1018 2017 When I was working on the book.
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 04:27
Yes. And I was also working on collaboration code.
Maria Ross 04:31
That’s right. Oh my gosh. So yeah, it’s been a while. And I’m so excited to have you here. You know, we talked about we mentioned your bio at the top of the episode and advisor on leadership and expert in women’s leadership and how women show up as they lead. And your expertise is so timely because as I’ve been now the book being three years old, I’ve been out doing talks and keynotes and workshops and the number one question I get which is for you You is our women better than men at empathy? Innately, naturally. And so given all of your research and the work that you’ve done, can you talk to us about that narrative? Yes, I
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 05:14
can. And in fact, I think we probably touched on it back in 2017 or so. And at that time, I was just so aware of the research around emotional intelligence. And the folks who are doing research in that arena, there was a lot of discussion about the fact that men and women did not differ in expressing empathy. And since then, however, there have been studies that show that it’s a nature nurture thing, women, yeah, women are socialized. So the nurturer piece, they really are socialized to connect with people. And that takes empathy. So that’s reinforced there. But from a nature point of view, they’re also remotely oxytocin is a hormone that actually correlates with empathy, whereas testosterone is, you know, is actually a negative impact on cognitive. So there are things that suggest that women are suited because of both the way their brains work, and nature, or nurture, rather. So the Oh, and the other thing I have to say, it, that’s pretty exciting, because there’s been other studies recently about different parts of the brain that light up. And it showed that women, their brain lit up more when they experience somebody else’s pain, like that portion of their brain, you know, showed activity in a greater way. Yeah, that’s so interesting.
Maria Ross 07:01
And, you know, it’s so interesting to hear this, because I think we all have different war stories. And I was telling you that, you know, ironically, two of my, I hate to say toxic all the time, but two of my most psychologically abusive bosses that I had were women. And some of my most empathetic bosses were men. And I think that has to do more with what you talk about in your second book, about the collaboration code and being a collaborative leader, whether you’re a male or female. So talk to us a little bit about that critical characteristic of empathy, which is collaboration.
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 07:38
Yeah. So I see collaboration as or I see empathy as actually a foundation for collaborative leadership. And one of the things I particularly noticed in collaboration code, when I interviewed the executive men, one of the characteristics that was a theme over and over again, was that they tempered ego, they did not have to, they didn’t seem to feel a need to establish themselves, in aware of their credibility or their status, they got out of the way for people to lead. They gave people the spotlight, they and all of that, what they did is that they allowed people to get close enough to them and connect to them so that they were relatable. And it was very empowering to the people working with them
Maria Ross 08:36
because of that. And so what is it about leadership effectiveness, that has made it be looked at through a gender lens? Meaning, you know, there’s many of the leadership effectiveness traits we think of people tend to think of in terms of masculine terms. And now we’re looking at we’re understanding that emotional intelligence and connection and empathy and humility, and vulnerability, and all these things that are traditionally associated with female traits are actually the ones that make leaders in general more effective. So what is going on there?
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 09:13
Well, I mean, I see it as a leadership paradigm shift. I really do. And I think that the pandemic really put the accelerator down on this transition that was already happening. And right at the beginning of the pandemic, as women, country leaders were the ones that were being recognized as doing the best job. And it wasn’t that it was just all women. There were men too, but what it pointed out is the men who really blew it, they were leading in a very authoritative way. You know, just a very, I think, one of the columnists that I was reading and Forbes had said that they were van glorious, you know, just blustering and, and really felt like they needed to be the smartest person in the room, the women who were being sighted, they brought people in, they listened to expertise, they talked to people, they engage people in problem solving and making decisions. Whereas, you know, the other model where you have to be the smartest in the room, you know, people present to you and you make a decision. That model wasn’t working all that well, during the pandemic. Yeah, and it’s a model that was shifting before because I started working on my book before the pandemic, and I remember chopping it around to agents, and some of the agents saying, well, we don’t really understand if this is a business book or a self help book. But what they said was, can you make it more about how female traits are a competitive advantage? And I firmly said, No, I wanted to specifically talk about empathy, because that’s a gender neutral skill, we all need to nurture and strengthen that whether we’re a man or a woman, and I didn’t want to put the gender lens in it, to turn off anybody who actually might need the message. So how do you see that empathy is effective for male leaders in ways they don’t understand? What do you think is getting in their way of male leaders, I should say, adopting the old still continuing to adopt the old paradigm, right? Again, the way they’ve been socialized, to not be vulnerable, to be self confident, to hold firm to their point. All these things are very, very anti collaborative. And I think that there’s still a feeling out there that there are still men who want to feel more in control, as in command and control. That’s what makes them feel comfortable. And so what rings true for me, particularly, and in talking to you about your thoughts about your research, and your further writing, is trying to help men or I mean, there are some women who do have an issue around control. And being willing to let go of that and share power with people. Really, the next step is to help them reinforce for them that they are not going to lose status, they’re not going to lose power. In fact, they’ll gain more power if they open themselves up. So yeah, it is true that there are women leaders who’ve bought into the very stupidly male paradigm of leadership, and that’s how they’re gaining, of course, our and like you wrote about in breaking through bitch, they’re seen in a horrible light because of that, and they’re actually adopting behaviors that male leaders we look up to are exhibiting. So what’s going on there? Well, you know, the double standard, is, you know, when the damned if you do damned if you don’t situation, there’s still threads of that out there. And for instance, during during the pandemic, when there was someone at the microphone, you know, I saw streaming online, a video from the news, a guy who was tearing up, and people were celebrating that, I mean, that was seen as so magnificent, you know, this person who was feeling empathetic and expressing it. And yet, there’s still a little bit of discomfort. If a woman was standing there doing that, it’s like, well, she can’t possibly have what it takes to lead. And, you know, feeling insecure about this woman because, you know, she’s being emotional. So they’re fairly still is that, that tendency to, to see things in that way. And also women who do lead, like men, if you will, and have been told to do so and actually code to do so. They’re still seen quite negatively, you know, they’re abrupt. You know, they’re not a sheet liar. Put, yeah, all of that stuff, the brusqueness. So it’s still out there. And that’s why, I mean, I got involved in all of this, because of seeing there were women that I could see in my consulting life as well as I worked in corporate as a scientist and then went into human resources. But I saw that the women who made it to the top at I mean, like CEO of the C suite, they took an edge off of the assertiveness, I call it balancing assertiveness. They really presented some very feminine associated traits, that in combination with leading to, you know, being strong, that that’s what it took, it took that kind of combination. And so that’s really what got me started and then realizing, well, wait a second, this isn’t just good for women, this is really the way everyone should lead. And, you know, when you think about organizational culture, the best cultures are cultures where leaders are inclusive, and empathetic, and they engage their people. Right, right.
Maria Ross 15:42
And that’s what you know, I’m working, as you know, I’m working on a second book. And that is because in my talks, I have to debunk those myths of empathy all the time, that it’s weak that, you know, you cave into everyone’s crazy demands, that, you know, you get walked over or you and also what’s happening is you might burn out. But really where that’s happening in organizations that I see, and I’d love your take on this, is that when leaders are struggling with being empathetic, or being collaborative, and feel that they like standards are slipping, or they’re not being able to set boundaries, or they are burning out, it’s actually because what they’re doing is not actually empathy. It’s something else. It’s acquiescence. It’s submission, it’s people pleasing. Right. So
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 16:28
can you Yeah, a little bit about what you’ve seen in your research? Yes. As you were talking about that I realized somebody had posted on LinkedIn, about that leaders felt a need to be the cool parent.
Maria Ross 16:42
That was me. Yes. Okay, there you got it was from an article that was written about how leaders were handling layoffs, and that they’ve sort of gotten themselves into this pickle, because they were trying so hard to be the cool parents of giving all their team members what they wanted at every time. And, and they were able to do that during the pandemic. And now things are sort of going back. And some of those things need to be pulled back a little bit. So yeah, but I think that’s what’s happening, people misunderstanding
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 17:14
what empathy is, I will say that when I was researching collaboration code, and I was doing behavioral event interviews with all of these second men, I started reading about empathy. And there was a book out that not going to remember the name, of course, or the author, but let me just say, I learned that you could categorize empathy into three categories. And just to zero in, I suspect that men generally have difficulty with emotional empathy. And it’s not, I don’t think it’s that they can’t feel it. I think that they feel they can’t dare feel it. Like, they can’t express it, they won’t be able to control their reaction. I mean, I have seen this I have seen well think about it, big boys don’t cry. I mean, you learn, you know, you feel something. And oh, you know, this is reminding me and I, you know, it’s not a work example, but it’s an example, about my son in karate class, and was, I’m gonna guess he was around 11 or 12. And one of his friends, I guess, they were doing, they were not performing. But they each had to do their kata or whatever. And his friend was doing something and somebody started to laugh. I’d like and make fun of him. And my son, burst out into tears. He was so upset, and started defending his friends. And I’m like, sitting, like, back in a waiting room, there’s glass, I can see what’s going on. I’m like, Oh, my gosh. But I realized I was like, you know, people are so invested in holding in their emotions, and also, in not wanting to connect too much to other people, because they don’t want to feel that pain, if you will. And, you know, it’s just been interesting to watch my son growing up. He is graduating this year from college, but But anyway, just watching the effects of how society really teaches young men, how to be successful and grow up and a lot of it is self control. And I think that’s how empathy is perhaps a little bit of a threat for men, because that message is still very much out there.
Maria Ross 19:51
Yeah, I mean, toxic masculinity is a problem in our society, in and outside of work. It’s how there’s a lot of ills around that and It is true. It’s generations of male leaders brought up a certain way. And I’m loving that I’m seeing these examples in the C suite of some of our most successful leaders. I’ve had many of them on this show that are bucking that trend that are saying, No, I’m going to be a human being at work. And I’m going to bring these elements in because they understand the ROI of you know, like your book, collaboration code, my book, they understand what they gain from making those connections, they gain, improved performance, engagement, innovation, trust, loyalty, all the things, right, all the things that you’re supposed to want to be seeking, if you truly want to be an effective leader. And so I love that in the context of you looking at this, from the male perspective, and the female perspective, the conclusion we’re both trying to be out there talking about is that it doesn’t matter what gender you are, if you want to be an effective leader. And one step further, an effective worker, an effective collaborator, even if you’re not necessarily the leader of the group, what will make you and most effective to improve your performance and your engagement? It’s all of these things that we’re talking about. And yet it’s so hard for people. So when you were doing your research, and talking to leaders that were holding back that were a little bit afraid of connection, what was getting in their way? And did they identify anything that could help them overcome those
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 21:30
hurdles? That is a great question. And I’m not sure I really have the answer to that. Because after all, the men that were being the focus of the study, they were all collaborative leaders, and they had stories about the pushback that they had gotten. And really, they had to, they just had to stand firm to what they believed. And can you talk
Maria Ross 21:57
about some of that pushback? What did that look like? For some of them?
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 22:01
Oh, wow. So I know, with one general counsel, he just said, you know that people said he was too nice. And actually the head of a publishing house CEO, he had talked about a board member who was always on his case, saying you got to hold people’s feet to the fire. And then of course, there’s the other one that, you know, some guy was pushing on him, sort of suggesting that he was all touchy feely and weak, sort of so really questioning his masculinity, because of the way it was acting. So that’s the push back. And one of the things I want to bring up before I forget, and well, I should pause and make sure that you don’t want to talk about okay, but the men that I interviewed, they were from different industries. They were from different backgrounds. But I have to say that one of the interesting observations I’ve had, is that women, people of color people from all different diverse populations, if you will, underrepresented groups. Exactly. Yes. They, my observation is that they seem better versed and able to feel empathy, because they had to use empathy to survive in order to fit in. Right. So for women, and when I was doing the research, you know, for years, women had to learn to fit into this male culture, this executive, you know, whatever the culture was at the top and have that leadership team feel that she was one of them, right. So in order to do that, you have to have empathy, you have to be listening, you have to be paying attention, and being able to figure out, I mean, it’s, there’s a lot of competencies, that political and cultural savvy, all of this stuff all comes together. For the people that are underrepresented in leadership, let’s say in order to get ahead, that is crucial,
Maria Ross 24:15
right? They have to think about it more. They can’t just bring themselves to work. Right. Right. And you know, their white male colleagues, they write it say, just show up have to think about it. Right, right. That’s what I mean. It’s not necessarily all bad intention. It’s just it is what it is. And what’s the analogy people always use as if you’re swimming in the ocean. You don’t realize you’re surrounded by water. You know what? Fish I don’t even know I’m mixing the mat for outdoor I had it out of my head.
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 24:49
I was just gonna say Maria that a colleague of mine had said the story is longer, but you know, she said that a freshwater fish found itself In the ocean, and was swimming around and was having a hard time and went up to one of the ocean fish and said, How do you swim with all the salt? And the fish said, what salt?
Maria Ross 25:13
Exactly. Because you don’t know if it’s all designed for you don’t notice those things. And so that makes a lot of sense that those groups stretch those empathy muscles a little bit more, because they just have to get better at reading people and listening to people and see what’s going on and mirroring and doing all the things they need to do to code switch in the environment that they’re in. So that makes a lot of sense. One of the things I remember you telling me back, then, and we talked about it a little bit was this idea of the women who have been really successful leaders. It’s not necessarily because they’re empathetic, that they became a successful leader, because they’re a woman who is empathetic naturally, but many of them you said did cite the fact that empathy and collaboration, which came easier for them, was actually a factor of their success. So they were aware that this was sort of a tool in their toolkit. Yes,
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 26:09
yes. And, you know, prior to my start of this research, and I did look at men and women in leadership roles for my dissertation. And so I published a women’s leadership model in my dissertation back in 2000. And, as you know, working with executive teams and organizations, for the last 20 plus years, I just have seen over and over again, that women do understand when they get to a certain level, they understand that that’s kind of the secret to success, I would say. And I do wonder if once you get to a certain level, and I thought about this with the men as well, like, you’ve already got the creds, you know, you’re already up there. So you don’t have to worry about what other people say, you know, right, right. So I think women get a little more comfortable being bringing their whole self to the table and be like, when they are at a certain level of the organization. But certainly, they had to have some of that as they were growing, in order to be accepted and listened to as a leader.
Maria Ross 27:21
I love this conversation, because it’s also bringing me back and I’ll put a link in the show notes to a conversation I had with America. Heisey, who wrote the book humbleness. And it’s a wonderful book about the perfect marriage of humility and ambition as a powerful leadership and successful leadership trait. Absolutely. I’m wondering what your thought is maybe as a closing thought, of, you’ve talked about in different things, that there’s sort of this unspoken crisis of male leadership. So if male leaders are looking for a different way to lead, and maybe some of them, well, the ones not looking for a different way to lead are probably not listening to my podcast. But for those that are looking for a different way to lead, and they’re not sure how to start where to go first, based on your research and your consulting, what are some things they can do to overcome the pushback? Because I want to make a side note comment about that. I talked about the fact that empathy is weakness is such a myth, because you actually have to be really strong to deal with the pushback you’re gonna get on being empathetic.
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 28:27
So you have to be strong, to trust other people. I mean, what we’re really talking about is, I think some of the lack of empathy. And some of the lack of wanting to go with this leadership paradigm shift is that if you’re not comfortable, if you’re not confident, you get to passive. Yeah, you have a hard time. So at a start, again, I’m just thinking about one of the executive men, that was amazing. Yeah, he went into an organization that was failing. And in fact, you know, it was really, they were going to lose their certifications. And it was going to go down the tubes. And he went in there, and he just he started talking to people. And I think the most powerful thing, if I had to give advice to somebody says, I really want to, I want to do this. I think they need to, first of all, find out what people care about. And hopefully they’re able to connect with that and be very deliberate about sharing their own purpose and helping people connect with that purpose. You know, this is kind of the mission. This is why our job is meaningful, this the purpose of the organization and working on getting people engaged in that. I think that is probably a great first step because it’s you know, you’re still interacting in a workplace sort of relationship. But as you and I both now, to really get that the data, you really have to have more of a personal connection with people. But I would say the first step might indeed be gathering around the purpose, and the mission and the meaning, and then you feel close to people.
Maria Ross 30:23
100% I love that. And I actually am gonna put a link in the show notes to another, a few episodes we’ve done around the importance of purpose, and how it does help people engage better. And the reality that we also need to be very clear and deliberate about purpose and mission and vision and make sure everyone understands, and they understand how it’s brought to life through what they do and what they bring to the table. So, thank you so much for this conversation, Carol, I love it. We’re gonna have links to all of your work and to your books. Both the collaboration code, how men lead culture, change, and nurture tomorrow’s leaders and breaking through bitch, how women can shatter stereotypes and lead fearlessly. We’ll have links to all of that in the show notes. But for folks on the go, where’s the best place? They can connect with you or find out more about you?
Carol Vallone Mitchell, Ph.D 31:11
So my company has talent strategy partners? Yes. And certainly people can find me on LinkedIn. Great. Terrell, thank
Maria Ross 31:19
you so much for your time today and your insights. We really appreciate it. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard you know what to do, please share it with a colleague and don’t forget to rate and review it and follow us. In the meantime, until our next episode, and next guest remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care, be kind and don’t forget to connect with me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
