How do you get analytical, process-driven people like engineers, lawyers, and doctors to see the value of empathy and human connection? It’s not that they CAN’T embrace it. It’s just that they see the world and how to solve problems differently.
My guest, Dr. Nicole Price believes two things: 1) everyone wants to do a good job and 2) empathetic leadership is critical to helping to leverage that desire. Today we talk about how she became an empathy revolutionary, how to open up a broader path to empathy, and why diversity doesn’t work when saddled by apathy. Dr. Price shares how a traumatic event opened up her capacity to connect through emotion and better impact performance – and why she now helps others understand that those who are emotional can also be logical. We discuss how to link accountability to commitment and why her role as a translator helps logical thinkers understand they don’t have an empathy deficit, but that there are multiple roads to empathy that are a better fit for the way they experience the world.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- When people understand people better, it transforms them from the outside in. They don’t need to be practicing empathy for the right reason initially, but it will change most people eventually.
- It is not unusual for doctors, lawyers, and engineers to think they are better than those who are not at the same level as them. This is a barrier to empathy, but one that can be overcome.
- Empathy is a method of information gathering. For some, they will be attracted to that rather than the emotions of empathy. There is no wrong way to begin your practice of empathy.
“Engineers are taught to listen for accuracy. But when I’m trying to be empathetic, listening for accuracy is not helpful to me. I’m supposed to be listening for understanding.”
— Dr. Nicole Price
Episode References:
- Rhonda George-Denniston: Why Betting on Your People Leads to Market Domination
- Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss
Dr. Nicole Price, CEO, Lively Paradox and author of Spark the Heart: Engineering Empathy in Your Organization
Dr. Nicole Price believes two things: 1) everyone wants to do a good job 2) empathetic leadership is critical to helping to leverage that desire. She is an empathy revolutionary who teaches leaders how to build more empathy in organizations. Her clients range from manufacturing facilities to school districts. She is the author of seven books centered on being an exceptional leader—most notably Spark the Heart: Engineering Empathy in Your Organization.
Connect with Dr. Nicole Price:
Email: nicole@livelyparadox.com
Lively Paradox: drnicoleprice.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/nicoledeniseprice
Facebook: facebook.com/nicole.denise.price
Instagram: instagram.com/drnicoleprice
Threads: threads.net/@drnicoleprice
Book: Spark the Heart: Engineering Empathy in Your Organization
Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. How do you get analytical process driven people like engineers, lawyers and doctors to see the value of empathy and human connection? It’s not that they can’t embrace it. It’s just that they see the world and how to solve problems differently. My guest today Dr. Nicole price believes two things. One, everyone wants to do a good job and to empathetic leadership is critical to helping to leverage that desire as CEO of lively paradox. She’s an empathy revolutionary who teaches leaders how to build more empathy in organizations. Her clients range from manufacturing facilities to school districts. Her latest book is called spark the heart engineering empathy in your organization. Dr. Price received her BS in chemical engineering from North Carolina a&t University, her master’s degree in adult education from Park University, her doctorate in leadership and management from Capella University, and completed postdoctoral studies at Stanford University. Today, we talk about how this engineer became an empathy revolutionary how to open up a broader path to empathy for people who are taught to think in terms of systems, not individuals, and why diversity doesn’t work. When saddled with apathy. Dr. Price shares how a traumatic event opened up her capacity to connect through emotion, and therefore, better impact performance. And why she now helps others understand that those who are emotional can also be logical. We discuss how to link accountability to commitment, and why her role as a translator helps logical thinkers understand, they don’t have an empathy deficit, but that there are multiple roads to empathy that are a better fit for the way they experience the world. This was such an enlightening episode, take a listen. Welcome Dr. Nicole price to the empathy edge podcast. I have been looking forward to this conversation with you for a while because I love that you are approaching empathy from an engineers point of view. So
Dr. Nicole Price 02:47
welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. I’ve been looking forward to it too.
Maria Ross 02:50
So we want to hear your story and how you got to this work, and especially how an engineer becomes an empathy, revolutionary,
Dr. Nicole Price 02:59
kicking and screaming. No doubt. Interestingly enough, I have spent most of my professional career working, helping difference to get along. So people on teams who don’t understand each other, how do I help them to just embrace the different ways people think their lived experiences so that the team can gel and make progress on their objectives. But somewhere along that journey, I realized that none of this was going to work if people were saddled with apathy. So I felt like intellectually, I felt like someone needed to embrace this idea of empathy and teach it to technical professionals. But almost all of the work that I was running into involved a bunch of exercises and things that engineers just will not do that. They are not going to sit on the grass in empathy circles, and listen, without any kind of understanding for what that’s going to deliver. Although I’m here for nine day retreats, I’m here for all of those kinds of things. But it was truly just an academic exercise for me until I had a traumatic life event. And in my traumatic life event as these things happen to do. I started to feel people, it was almost like, I would walk around in the world. And it was something written across my forehead that said, tell me that you are suffering. And like I had never had it before. I certainly did not have it before. But after the grief that I had been suppressing related to my mother’s traumatic death, she was killed by a drunk driver and the murder trial associated with that. Just me getting in touch with some of my own feelings, I think, started to project out into the universe that I was a portal that was willing to receive. I think I have that language now, but I did not have the language when it first started know that oh, my gosh, I had no idea why this was happening. And then just short, just briefly. I had been An amazing employee in my organization. But after I came back after a pretty sizable leave of absence, my leader who wasn’t very nice person. And so I didn’t want anybody to think that she was not nice and kind she was, she asked me about my mom and how I was doing. And I shared, but then immediately after that, she pulled out her legal pad and was like, Okay, let’s talk about your projects. And there was something about the timing of that, that just felt off. And so I had my personal experience, but I also had my professional experience, just both of them at the same time saying, we need an we need an empathy revolution. But I absolutely thought that somebody else should be doing. I think that some shouldn’t be me. Right? Every time I went to try to say, Hey, someone should be doing this, for this particular group of people, the answer kept coming back that what if it is you maybe it should be shouldn’t be you? Hmm,
Maria Ross 06:03
wow, that is powerful. And I, you know, relatable, I think for a lot of people that sometimes we have this preconceived notion of what empathy is, and the role that it plays in our lives, and then something traumatic or catastrophic happens. And I believe we do give off this energy when we’ve been through it, that people can sense and they sort of find a kindred spirit. And it’s really interesting that you so descriptively, articulated that of like walking around in the world, like you had something on your forehead that said, I will listen or bring it on, or whatever it was. And so I think that there is an energy around that. And it’s so interesting to me, that you, you come from the traditional left brain analytical world. And that doesn’t necessarily mean that those folks can’t tap into empathy or aren’t empathetic, I think sometimes there’s a really negative stereotype out there. But I also think that in that, in that world that they operate, sometimes it’s not really understanding what it is and what it isn’t. And, like your work, my work is all about helping people understand it from a very non scary and non threatening point of view. So that’s why I’m so drawn to your work. So I want to talk a little bit about why do you think that path that you went on, and that epiphany that you had is so important to the broader conversation of empathy? Did it help you realize something was missing in the empathy conversation and wasn’t reaching? Everyone it could reach? Like, what? What was that journey? Like?
Dr. Nicole Price 07:32
Yeah, I think for me, it’s translation. So engineers, are actually taught not to be empathetic. And people are actually shocked when I say that. But if you make one item, and then I have to make 50 million of that item, by the end of the week, I can’t personalize people and think about their individual situations and stories. I’ve got 50 million parks, I have to get out by the end of the week. And so we’re taught to think in systems, not individuals, in fact, individuals get in the way of a well oiled process. You need standardization in order to get 50 million of anything out by the end of the week. And what I was not aware of was that, that Systems Thinking caused me not to think of consider people as individuals, they did become cogs in wheel. So even though we would all say people are not just cogs and wheels, if Sue is sick that day, I need to be able to put Tom in her spot, and Tom needs to be able to just keep going because I have to get 50 million parts out. And one I was not aware of that. So what I did have had no awareness of it. And to me, like I said earlier, while I am completely open to a spiritual path, many different ways of learning information. I think I understand the difference between kindness and niceness and empathy and all the different types. Most people are just like, hey, can empathy be taught or not? Do you have it or not? Like, what does it look like to practice it or not? Why should I care? How do I hold these people accountable and still be empathetic? That’s what people say. And so I just said, Alright, how can I translate? How can I be a person who translates really important nuance? I think it doesn’t matter that effective empathy doesn’t come from the same part of the brain is cognitive empathy. Absolutely. That matters. And most of my clients don’t care. They just want to know, how am I gonna get my 50 million parts out at the end of the week? And how are people going to feel connected to me? And how do I keep them engaged and want to keep them motivated? And so instead of arguing against that, I thought, how can I translate this in a way that people will receive it? Well,
Maria Ross 09:46
let’s talk about that. Because you wrote sparked the heart and engineering empathy in your organization. So what are some of the ways that you help folks that and I don’t want to I am a little hesitant to use this word but that are Lee worry of embracing empathy because they think it’s going to detract from the system from the goal that they have to accomplish. What is that? That blueprint idea that you’re providing for people? Can you share a little teaser with us? Because we obviously want folks to get the book, but what what is the thinking behind creating that blueprint? And how does it help those people?
Dr. Nicole Price 10:20
I think Leary is the right word. And let me tell you why I think that I have had clients tell me that we can’t even name my session, anything related to empathy, because they don’t believe people will come. So Leary is kind of a nice word.
Maria Ross 10:36
I think that a squared of Yeah.
Dr. Nicole Price 10:40
Yeah. And I, what I did in the book, which I think is masterful, I’m biased, is I shared all the ways, the practical ways that I did not demonstrate empathy as an engineer, and as a leadership, development expert, and also as a leader inside large corporation, was important for me to just describe what it could be what it could look like without putting anybody else on Front Street, but showing how I have dropped the ball on being an empathetic leader, and how we can all be different. So one of the one of the examples that I share is specifically about being in a parking lot at one of my manufacturing clients. And I actually, when I was even telling that story in the book, had to check myself because I wasn’t being empathetic to their situation, they had decided that they were going to do a shift overlap, when there was an overlap. Turns out there weren’t going to be enough parking spots for the people coming to the plant. But I don’t believe everyone knew that. So of course, there’s some people when they get there, there’s nowhere to park. And so they were parking in the visitor thought, well, if you park in the visitor lot, a certain number of times your car’s gonna get towed. So the day I was there, a lady’s car gets towed. And I just happened to be in the room, when they’re talking about, well, why are these people just like, not like parking in the visitor spot? And I asked the question, you know, Curiosity is an important part of being empathetic. Well, are there enough spots? One guy says, of course, and another guy says, well, actually, for about 15 minutes, no. Well, none of the senior leaders knew that. And then I’m a visitor, there’s 25, visitor spots available and open. Long story short, this woman was car getting towed was going to be about $250 to her. And then the next day, you know, there’s an additional fee, and it just keeps. So she left she asked her union leader if she could leave to go get her car. And she did. Well, that stopped the line. Well, stopping the line cost millions of dollars. And so she was going to get fired. And I was there, trying to figure out, okay, what is the best empathy exercise here, and I call it the empathy walk I just made, I just borrow that term. But it comes from the engineering concept of the gimble walk, which means to go and see the real place. And in practical terms, it just basically means if you’re going to cut somebody’s hair, they should probably be in the chair. So you cannot change any process without going to see at first. This was an exercise in understanding poverty for people who actually have jobs. So I just asked, Would anybody in the room be willing to share? What are the kinds of things that could make you late for work if you didn’t have money, and the people in the room had been working with these folks for sometimes decades. So these are people that they know, but they’ve never thought about the fact that they were born or maybe had lived in, in poverty at some. So there’s a woman talking about what her life was like after divorce, there was a person who had grown up where her parents were working, but they were just, they’re poor. And they shared things like having your lights turned off. And so you don’t, you know, you got to figure out where you’re gonna go take a shower, if you want to take a hot one, things like the babysitter didn’t come our school was ran close, or you went outside, you had a flat or you went outside and somebody had siphoned all your gas out. I mean, they were just sharing story after story. And so then we just walked through, what does that mean, then if you happen to get to work, and it’s the 15 minutes where there’s the overlap, what are you going to do? And so at the end of that, like empathy, walk just in our minds, the plant manager decided to pay to get the woman’s car out and to also, you know, restore her her job. And I think those are kind of the practical ways in which I’m trying to get people to buy into what does it look like to understand what somebody else is thinking, feeling, believing and experiencing? Because before we started, you and I were talking about how people can use empathy for bad reasons. I grew up a car To the street from a pennant, and people are surprised to know that but I regularly tell people that in fact, I did a TED talk on pimps are very empathetic. And people are usually shocked to know this. But how do you get someone to do what a pimp is trying to get them to do without understanding what they think, what they feel? What, what motivates them, who you can pimp it, who you can’t pin, in order to do that, for any length of time, that career requires you to understand people very well. It’s just a more tactical form of cognitive empathy. And I’m just trying to get people who have some shred of compassion, to embrace these ideas and these concepts for good. Yeah, they do. I think it can change the way we work, the way we learn the way we just experienced the world.
Maria Ross 15:49
So I love this because I’ve mentioned this a few times on the show, I did a TEDx talk about how to trick leaders into being more empathetic, I taught I called it how to Trojan horse leaders into being empathetic. And it’s the whole reason I wrote the empathy edge, it was the business case, for the ROI of empathy. And that rubs a lot of sensitive people the wrong way, or people that are naturally empathetic and can tap into their empathy, because they think, oh, that’s manipulative, that’s, you know, we should be empathetic, because it’s the right thing to do. And I agree with that, except it’s not working. Like the mineral imperative doesn’t work for many people. And so if we have to show them, this is the marketing part coming in, if we have to show people what’s in it for them, if they embrace empathy, so be it because there are lots of, you know, tangible, ROI pieces that come out of it. And once they embrace empathy, they’re doing it. It doesn’t matter how they got there, if they’re seeing, you know, if they see my point of view, and they respond in a way that recognizes my point of view, it doesn’t matter why they’re doing it, I was in a hospital that, you know, followed a very empathetic philosophy of care, patient and family centered care, they did it to lower costs and increased profits. But the experience to me as a patient was still amazing. I still felt seen, I felt heard, I felt valued. And so it kind of didn’t matter to me. But more importantly, and I’m sure you’ve seen this in your career, getting people there and getting them in the room to have the conversation or see the other point of view, there’s no way that can’t change them. There’s no way that they can’t walk away from that experience going, Ah, there’s something to this. Let me try it again. Let me have more interactions this way. So do you agree, it sounds like you and I are kindred spirits on the like whatever it takes to get
Dr. Nicole Price 17:41
empathy? He absolutely agree. And I and I was over here nodding. And I know the listeners can’t see this. But it’s just like, think about the fact that pimps are using this preachers are using this politicians are using this people shampoo peddlers are using what we think feel and believe and experience in order to motivate us to do what they want. And I had I had not considered this actually. Because I had a life changing event that caused me to also be more sensitive, that I considered that oh, there are people who use empathy for bad reasons. I was given a keynote. And a gentleman walked up to me at the hand and he said, I’m doing everything that you say, but I’m not doing it. Because I care about people. I’m doing it because I’m trying to make a sale. And that was when I had my epiphany like, Oh, yes, you can absolutely do everything I’m saying and you can use it for good, or it’s like a hammer being used to build or to break. Yeah. And I see leaders struggling all the time, not able to naturally get people to be engaged or use hospital systems, patient outcomes just aren’t what we need them to be. Well, who is not going to be smarter about people, if they can understand people better, right? For me, let’s get them there. And when people understand people better eventually I think sometimes the feeling comes later.
Maria Ross 19:11
I agree. I think it transforms them from the outside in because I spoke in the in the first book about being around executives, when I worked at for a cable network, being around executives at a cable affiliate, who were doing a community event at a at a local food bank. They were doing it for PR. They were doing it for press, they were doing it for customers, but there they were stocking shelves in a food bank, and having conversations with the customers with the clients of the food bank to learn what their life was like. And many of them decided to keep volunteering with the food bank after that day. Many of them had gotten exposed to people that they never would have been exposed to before. And so it did transform them. And does it happen all the time? No, there’s definitely going to be people that are like I’m going to use this today. it’d be late everybody. But that doesn’t mean we all give up on it. Right? So I want to get back to the book and this idea of other examples that you have of how you’re bringing, like, what do you think is the unique challenge with engineers? Other than what you’ve talked about? And where do they, you know, barring a traumatic event for them? Where is the epiphany for them, where they start to go, oh, I don’t need to be so leery of these human connections of considering the individual, I can still get my work done well, and balance performance with people. Where do you see that unlocking for engineers? And why do they have a unique challenge in that
Dr. Nicole Price 20:42
the doctors, lawyers and engineers have some of the most difficult training in terms of just the profession? And what does it take to get through the education that’s required to be in those professions? So you’re dealing with people who are incredibly smart, typically not. Now, of course, there are exceptions to this rule. And whether this is on purpose or not, the general population is just not thinking in the same way as doctors, lawyers and engineers. And so when you’re like, hey, I have designed this thing, you, I made this, I was prescribed this medicine, just take it. I have told you what the statute is like, do you want to sue or not? Like the process? Is this follow it or not? And when people don’t do what you’re thinking, subconsciously, you might go? Not smart? And then how do you end up showing up for people who you think are not smart. And I don’t believe any of this is conscious? I don’t think so. But I think you end up thinking that you’re better than talking down to people, not necessarily wanting to be in their circles. My experience in a manufacturing plant was that the engineers set at the tables by them, like differently separate and apart from manufacturing workers are the were our offices where we’re like looking over the manufacturing floor with glass, and it’s beautiful. The manufacturing floor is hot and sweaty, and dusty, and dirty, even just structurally how we were engaging with each other was very, very different. And so I think we shouldn’t just think that people are inherently empathetic or not, how do we create these people who lack empathy is part of the our responsibility, I believe, for us to to own. But when I think about Patrick Lencioni, his work around The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, many leaders automatically go to how do I hold these people accountable. And it was Lencioni, who I first heard, say, you have to go back down the pyramid, the you have to make sure that you have created a trusting environment where people feel like they can be heard and have healthy conflict. And then you can ask people for commitment. And then you can hold people accountable to what they have committed to. But you can’t come in to people who don’t trust you, you don’t hear anything, they have to say if they say something you don’t listen, they’ve never even given you their commitment to buy into your mission or vision or other, but you want to hold them accountable, you’ll always see your results kind of faltering. And typically, I can get engineers to buy into a logical point, a logical idea. And I don’t take the moral compass route, right? In fact, I say, overtly, listen, there are two ways to learn empathy. One is painful, and one is not. And I took the painful route by learning through life experience. I’m here today to help talk about what it looks like to learn it, you know, hearing, right, that’s one method for engineers, doctors and lawyers I use but the second one is, I never hold people accountable to something just because I think it’s the right thing to do. I do think it’s the right thing to do. But I asked people to consider the three or five three to five leaders they appreciate they love, they think they’re and they’re amazing leaders. And then I asked them to describe those leader, give me 10 characteristics of those three to five leaders, like, take the time and write down 10 characteristics. And what do you notice? Once you start looking at your list? Are those people just hard nosed and hard drivers? Typically not? They have empathetic competencies, and that’s why I like working for them. That alone Maria has usually causes my entire audience to shift and say, Okay, let me hear what you have to say. Because you’re right. The people I follow are empathetic and their leadership approach, right. So I never walk in and say you need to learn empathy, because you never, right. Right. And
Maria Ross 24:48
it’s also just that understanding of like we kind of referred to what it’s not, you know, it isn’t. It isn’t all holding hands and crying on the floor together. It isn’t it It isn’t even agreeing with people. And I think that gives folks a huge weight. It takes a huge weight off their shoulders, because of all the things they think Empathy means. That’s what they’re fighting against. And when they understand like you, I talk about empathy as a method of information gathering, if I’m going to have a productive conversation, or I’m going to move a project forward, if someone if we, if we have tension or conflict, I need to understand that person’s context to understand why they think the way they do and get information. Yeah. And so again, it’s like when you talk to those hard driving folks, it’s like, don’t look at it as a touchy feely emotion, look at it as a method of information gathering. They’re like, Oh, okay, that makes sense to me. Yeah, that’s something I can do. Right? Now,
Dr. Nicole Price 25:48
if I have a lot of time, I also try to push this idea and I am trying to push it. If I’m just being honest, that just because you have emotions, that does not make you a less logical person. Because as an engineer, I used to think that if I were emoting that I was not being logical. And it was life altering for me to realize that I’m not a more logical being because I haven’t cried since I was eight. That actually, I’m not as smart because I’m not taking in the information from other people. If I can look at you and know that you’re smiling, but you’re not happy. That has been critically important to me just being a smarter human.
Maria Ross 26:34
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s why so much of this requires us to you, the first step is getting present within ourselves. And in the new book that’s coming out in the fall, the empathy dilemma, that’s the first step is self awareness. What am I bringing to the interaction? What am I bringing to the table? What, what is preoccupying my mind, so I can’t make space to notice your facial expressions, or notice the tone of your voice. Or notice those little things that are going to give me cues on the conversation that we’re having and the interaction that we’re having.
Dr. Nicole Price 27:08
If I had one request of most of my HR partners, it would be to stop assuming that some people just can’t do empathy. And I have air quotes over here, because of their profession. Yes, I have not met many people who don’t have spouses or partners who don’t have children who don’t have siblings. And if we can help them build this competency at work, it can help transform their lives outside of work. Yep. And I think I have been shocked at the number of HR professionals who think techies just can’t get it, like they just can’t get this. What I will say is probably more true is that they can’t get doing these kinds of things for moral reasons, that they’re, you
Maria Ross 27:55
know, and, and also, they just approach it differently. I mean, we had a whole I was on a group discussion yesterday with a group of empathy experts. And we were being presented to by a woman who was presenting a systems based model of empathy. And it’s this idea that, yes, empathy is innate to human beings. But that’s also very, that’s also not the whole story. It’s we all tap into empathy in different ways. And your way of tapping into empathy may look different from mine may look different from someone else. And so there’s no sort of one right way to help you have that connection with someone else. And for some people, it is a little bit more analytical and logical for other people, it is more squishy, and emotional, and woowoo, and whatever you want to call it, but it doesn’t mean it’s wrong, right.
Dr. Nicole Price 28:44
And then we’re going to show up with the same amount of diversity as we do with every other competency in the world. It was helpful to me to learn that I already had high levels of somatic empathy that I can’t watch. I can’t watch a, a even a fictional boxing match that I feel it in my butt like I can’t watch that. Because, again, a life of you’re not very empathetic. You make decisions with logic and reason you don’t make it. I mean, even the Myers Briggs test says, Nicole price does not make decisions based on empathy and compassion. That’s what the tests that I made. Yeah. And so you might start thinking that you have some kind of deficit and i That’s why I love assessments that help people see that there are multiple types of empathy and you don’t have to have 100% of any different kind. There are many bridges to get to being able to understand people better. It was helpful to me to also read this book called never split the difference by Chris Voss, he’s the hostage negotiator. He talks about cognitive empathy, and he renamed it as tactical empathy. Because trying to understand a hostage, a terrorist so well, then by then but they have released the hostages, they don’t We don’t have to kill them. There’s a way to do both. And now I’m like a master negotiator, centering empathy, to be able to save lives. Mm hmm. I think we can use empathy to get a couple of parts out by then
Maria Ross 30:21
to solve a budget crisis. Yeah, exactly. I don’t you know, it’s, that’s my whole thing is this idea of everyone looking so binary at it. And it’s like, it’s empathy. I choose empathy or efficiency. I choose empathy or high performance, I choose empathy or sustainability. It’s both and, and, and the funny part. And I don’t know if you found this in your research, but when I was researching the new book that’s coming, the conversations I had with leaders about and pulling out what were the five pillars, the five common threads to what helps you be both and most of them didn’t realize they were doing it. Many of them were like, Yeah, I don’t know that I call myself an empathetic leader. And but then you talk to them about how they interact with their team. And that is the definition of empathy. So sometimes even the most empathetic people don’t label themselves as empathetic. Because it is a little bit more innate for them. Well, like, of course, I’m going to get to know my team because I have to motivate and inspire them to do what I need them to do. Like, they often have to reflect and think, Well, why? Why just that work? Why am I good at that. And that humility, is so important to embracing empathy, because humility blocks empathy, because it says, We have nothing left to learn. If you don’t have humility, we have I have nothing left to learn. I know everything. My perspective is the right perspective. It’s the humility that unlocks the questioning. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole Price 31:51
And thinking that you’re smarter than everyone else, that lack of awareness that there’s many different types of intelligence, too. Yeah. I love what you’re doing, because it did it. You mentioning it made me think of something else that I had to work on. And that was how engineers are taught to listen, we’re taught to listen for accuracy. Because when you’re not accurate, the bomb doesn’t go off when it’s supposed to. There’s a little bit too much of an active ingredient in your, your medicine, I have to be accurate. But when I’m trying to be empathetic, listening for accuracy is not helpful to me. I’m supposed to be listening for understanding. Someone might be inaccurate in how they’re explaining something to me. They might say something happened Thursday instead of Wednesday. It’s not my time to interrogate does it even matter that it was Thursday instead of Wednesday? Engineers struggle with that lawyers and judges, that difference means you’re lying. And now I can’t trust you, you know. And so it took the biggest gap I had to close was shifting from listening for accuracy to listening for understanding, that probably took me almost five years to become good at because my mind goes well, it wasn’t Wednesday.
Maria Ross 33:11
I love that you just brought this up, because I am the world’s most horrible author and researcher in terms of citing the data that I have researched. Because if you ask me what the percentage was on that particular study, I will say something like I think it was like 60%. I don’t have my notes in front of me. But I know that the end result was x. And I would probably drive a room of engineers crazy or lawyers crazy, because, but it’s just so funny that that’s actually something I’ve realized about myself, that I just don’t cite numbers, like my brain just doesn’t grasp it unless I’ve completely completely memorized it. What I grasp is the is the point it’s making non the actual numbers and what you said was so important that for certain groups of people that erodes trust, and
Dr. Nicole Price 34:00
I’ll tell you my employee engagement score scores to the 10th of a percentage from 2005.
Maria Ross 34:07
So I need part of your brain, I need to like, meld that into me.
Dr. Nicole Price 34:12
But it’s not helpful, right? Like when I think about my, my relationship with my son, if he says, Hey, we didn’t spend any time together last week, and I go, What are you talking about? We were just on a plane together, we went to Atlanta, and I’m hurting it our relationship because what he means is he wants to spend more time with me. And my ability to be able to hear what he’s trying to say. One of my first coaches told me I needed to learn how to read the tea leaves. I didn’t even know what he meant, but that’s what he’s talking about. Like what is the message behind the message and I just listened naturally. Listen to what you say. I can repeat back exactly what you say. And then conversation I want to have but that is not empathetic listening.
Maria Ross 35:01
No. It is reflective listening, though. So there is there is some benefit to that of, can you reflect back to someone what they’ve said in a way that’s non judgmental, and and just, you know, so what I hear you saying in the conflict that we’re having, let’s just make sure I understood what you said. You said the sky is purple and frogs are falling out of the sky. Is that Is that accurate? Then at least if you can confirm the accuracy, accuracy for me, you can feel heard like, Oh, she did hear me. And also I’m not saying it dripping with judgment of just like, here’s all the reasons you’re wrong. Before we get to that. Let me just make sure I heard you. Right. So there’s, there’s kind of a time and place in empathy for that. But it can’t end with that is what I hear you saying? Right? I
Dr. Nicole Price 35:47
have to know that whatever it is, you’re trying to tell me about the purple frogs falling from this?
Maria Ross 35:55
You know, what is? What is the point? What is your experience? And what is the point that you’re trying to make on that? I love that. So can you give us what you think? Or can you share with us as we wrap up, I guess I should say, what is one thing that you wish more people understood about empathy, especially if they are under the belief that they can never be an empathetic person? Or, or that it doesn’t have value for them to be an empathetic person?
Dr. Nicole Price 36:23
You know, if there was one thing that I want people to know, is that you? Can I say two things? Maria? Yes,
Maria Ross 36:29
absolutely. It’s there’s that accuracy coming in.
Dr. Nicole Price 36:35
It’s still one is that empathy can be taught, which means it can be learned, that’s one. Two, is it’s almost like anything else you you’re trying to do. That’s difficult. It’s going to take time. And and so when I hear my clients are like, Okay, we’re gonna do this empathy class. And then they expect that
Maria Ross 36:55
they will, I’m sure is going to be transformed. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole Price 36:59
I don’t know if you heard me say it took me almost five years to learn how to listen in this empathetic way. But the person who was working with me on it, I think he knew our relationship was going to be much longer than five years. So why wouldn’t he? And when I think about tenure at it, some organizations, there’s still some organizations that have some pretty lengthy tenure of their employee. And if you’re gonna have people for 10 years, if it takes them three years to learn something, isn’t that beautiful? Last seven, like, like working on this? And what does it look like if I start building your empathy muscle while you work for me, when you go someplace else, you’re in a better position than when you came to me. And I would love for us to embrace that idea that this isn’t, this is not something that you’re going to see a drastic change overnight.
Maria Ross 37:50
Well, I love I had a past guest, Rhonda George Denniston. She’s the Chief Learning Officer at TBWA, worldwide. And she spoke about the fact that which and she started out as an executive assistant at that company. And what she loves about their investment in people is precisely that, like, we know, you’re probably not going to be here for your whole career. But it doesn’t mean we don’t invest in you. It doesn’t mean we don’t contribute to your professional development, because we want you to look back at this job and think this is, this is the best job I ever had. This is where I had the most impact. And they they’re realistic about the fact that they’re not necessarily going to have lifers there. But they’re not expecting instant transformation. And they’re not saying we’re not going to invest in you, because you’re going to leave in three years anyway, for the three years that they’re there. They want them to be at their best. And they want them to produce their best work, which just makes bottom line sense, right? So all these organizations that are in the rush to cut costs are cutting, whether it’s empathy training, or professional development or communication training. They’re doing themselves a longer term disservice. And I understand that difficult choices have to be made. But to think that that’s a nice to have and not a must have. just boggles my mind, because every day, your interactions with people are dictating whether the company makes money or loses money. Absolutely.
Dr. Nicole Price 39:15
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And when you as a marketing person, you know, it’s good for people to have had a good experience when they worked for you. It’s perfect for the brand.
Maria Ross 39:25
Mm hmm, absolutely. Okay, so this is awesome. This has been I could talk to you for another hour, but we’re running out of time. The book is called spark the heart engineering empathy in your organization. So any of my listeners who think they can’t embrace empathy or shouldn’t embrace empathy, I want you to pick up Dr. Nicole Price’s book, we will have all your links in the show notes. And I just want to thank you for your time today and your insights and for being in conversation with me. For folks that are listening while they’re working out. Where’s the one best place they can find out more
Dr. Nicole Price 39:57
about your work, Dr. Nicole price.com
Maria Ross 39:59
I’m easy enough. I love it. Thank you so much.
Dr. Nicole Price 40:02
It’s been a pleasure. I appreciate you. And
Maria Ross 40:04
thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, leave a rating or review and share it with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Stay well and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access, show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
