How do some leaders show up, almost effortlessly, with a proactive point of view and clear messaging? I’d bet you money that for most, it’s a matter of intention and skill-building, not just natural talent! The ability to balance warmth, confidence, and competence is not just within reach for extroverts, either, according to today’s guest.
Today, Laura Camacho and I talk about what executive presence means (it’s not just how nice your suit fits!), how empathy relates to executive presence, specific challenges for more introverted leaders to increase their empathy, and what the C-suite is looking for to promote someone internally. Laura shares that the true purpose of executive presence is to help others have confidence in YOU as a leader, and she shares some tools on how to be clearer and empathetic in your messaging, as well as tips to mentor others, especially introverts.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- You have to be both a storyteller and a data driver. It is not a hard binary. Even the most analytical people are driven by emotion.
- If you are stressing about saying something badly, say it anyway – it likely won’t be bad and you can always course correct on the off-chance that it is.
- Prepare in advance to speak out in meetings about your domain. Be prepared to speak up early and with structure.
“Connection, competence, and confidence – you need all of those. You cannot have executive presence without empathy.” — Laura Camacho
About Laura Camacho, Executive Presence Coach:
Laura Mixon Camacho, PhD, is an executive presence coach. When leaders communicate with authentic executive presence, it builds a healthy culture with a better bottom line.
From her deep dive research into luxury brand messaging, winning political campaigns, and neuroscience, she takes a bespoke approach to teach highly intelligent high-performers how to connect, engage, and inspire people to improve business outcomes and build culture.
Her articles on influence and culture have been regularly featured in several publications, including Forbes, The Southern C, Lionesses of Africa, and Training Industry.
She is also author of the Cultured Communication Workbook and The Practical Guide to Effective Communication. Her podcast, Speak Up with Laura Camacho, is ranked #2 in the world for communication skills podcasts and is in the top 2.5% of all podcasts in the world.
Connect with Laura:
Mixonian Institute: speakupwithlaura.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/lauramcamacho
Instagram: instagram.com/speakupwithlaura
Executive Presence Mastery System: a 90-day intensive coaching program to prepare mid-level managers for senior leadership: speakupwithlaura.com/executivepresence
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books
Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. How do some leaders show up almost effortlessly with a proactive point of view and clear messaging? I bet you money that for most it’s a matter of intention and skill building not just natural talent. The ability to balance warm confidence and competence is not just within reach for extroverts either. According to today’s guest, Laura Camacho is an executive presence coach, and she believes that when leaders communicate with authentic executive presence and empathy, it builds a healthy culture with a better bottom line. From her deep dive research into luxury brand messaging, winning political campaigns and neuroscience. Laura takes a bespoke approach to teaching highly intelligent high performers how to connect, engage and inspire people to improve business outcomes and build culture. Her articles on influence and culture have been regularly featured in several publications, including Forbes, and she’s the author of the cultured communication workbook and the practical guide to effective communication. Her podcast speak up with Laura Camacho is ranked number two in the world for communication skills podcasts, and her recent clients include the likes of Bosch, Comcast, Medtronic and Nestle. Today, we talk about what executive presence means. It’s not just how nice your suit fits, how empathy relates to executive presence, specific challenges for more introverted leaders to increase their empathy, and what the C suite is looking for to promote someone internally. Laura shares that the true purpose of executive presence is to help others have confidence in you as a leader, and she shares some tools on how to be more clear and empathetic in your messaging, as well as tips to mentor others, especially introverts. This was such a great conversation full of so many insights. Take a listen. Welcome Laura Camacho to the empathy edge podcast to talk about empathy and executive presence and what the C suite is looking for to advance people in their organization. I’m so excited to have this conversation with you.
Laura Camacho 02:53
Oh, thank you so much, Maria for having me. I’m delighted to be here, and I’m so grateful for your reframing for me in a previous conversation on my podcast, what empathy was. It’s not just being nicey nice. No, I think it’s we’re gonna have a great conversation, because so many people think that being clear and being nice are two different things.
Maria Ross 03:14
Yes, exactly. We’re here to help give people a different perspective on that. So before we dive in, I would love to hear a little bit more about your story. So can you quickly share with us how you got into this work?
Laura Camacho 03:26
Absolutely, I’m happy to share the story. So I would, I am a card carrying certified introvert, like I’m sure a lot of your listeners, if not all of them good students, you know, teachers, pet kind of student always turning things in doing good work. And I guess a little variation that was early moving me in the communication space was my fascination with foreign languages, and that would be when I did a study abroad in Spain in college where I saw that it’s not just the words, right, because I was taught, my mom taught me mean what you say, say what you mean. She’s also an introvert, and that’s great, but it’s not enough. It’s not because that’s totally ignoring the emotional message and the inspiration that you need to succeed in business. So anyway, long story short, I lived in Venezuela a long time, lived in Germany, got so got a lot of cross cultural exposure to the way different people communicate. And when I ended up in North Carolina teaching communication at East Carolina University, you know, like that was the first time I really did an academic Deep Dive. And then that led to getting my PhD. And then this was the real kicker, Maria that I, you know, have my PhD, speak these languages, have this experience. And I’m like, communication is so bad in all the companies. Like, what am I going to do with all the money I’m going to make? Yeah, but it turns out that selling communication. Skills training requires really good communication, and I wasn’t at the level at when I in 2009 when I started, but I developed it because what I learned, Maria and what a lot of people listening need to get, it’s not just having the ideas, it’s not just the deliverables, it’s selling the value. And that’s what I had to learn to build my business where I now have, you know, a few part time employees, and I have a, you know, it’s a nice business that supports me, but I wouldn’t have that if I hadn’t learned how to get people excited about, yes, better, and that’s and if you’re in tech, or if you’re in finance insurance, that’s what you have to be able to get people, yeah, buy into your priority. So that’s kind of the story,
Maria Ross 05:45
yeah. And I love that, because you know that as coming from a marketing and a branding background myself, like that, is the key is it’s not enough to have a good idea or a fantastic product or be the most expert person in your field if you can’t communicate that value, and not from a here’s why I’m so great. Here’s why the product’s so great. It’s in a what’s in it for you as the listener, as the client, as the customer. And that is where you know, that’s what led me, that put me on the path right empathy as a strategic advantage was my marketing work. Of it’s not enough to just think you’re the coolest product in a bunch, exactly.
Laura Camacho 06:23
But that’s not intuitive exactly who is, especially if you’re, you know, a little bit bookish. And, like, I know my stuff. I’m an expert. I have a PhD. I did my dissertation. I was like, nobody cares all about what are you how are you going to help me, and then that’s just counterintuitive, and I think especially for young professionals, when they’re coming up in the work world, they’re getting rewarded for those results, which is great, but there’s going to come a day where you just you feel like you’re just the workhorse, and people aren’t seeing you As senior leadership material, despite your stellar performance reviews, and that’s those are the people that I help a lot, because, as you can imagine, is extremely frustrating,
Maria Ross 07:08
I’m sure. So let’s dive in, and let’s talk about how empathy relates to this quality of executive presence. And maybe if we can take a step back and explain to us what you mean by executive presence, and whether you believe you can even have executive presence without empathy. So a couple questions wrapped in there. Let’s start with what, how you define executive presence,
Laura Camacho 07:31
right? Well, it is a is this quality, right? And the way I see it, it’s a balance between competence and confidence and warmth. You know, that connection, you could say, if we could stick to three words, connection and competence and confidence. So you need all of those. And absolutely you cannot have executive presence without empathy. And here are the two traps that people fall into when they’re trying to, you know, access that C suite, or influence them, or just present themselves. In general, it’s either they’re just so warm and friendly and they bring brownies and they’re so nice and so agreeable, and everybody loves them, but they are not seen as senior leadership because they’re doers, like, oh, Laura is great to work with. She has, she has the best cappuccino brownies. Love her senior leadership. Oh no, no, no, no, no. And then there’s the other extreme. Is you’re just like results, especially if you’re introvert, you don’t speak up as much or and so people think that you don’t really have anything to say, or you’re just, you know, again, a doer, a quiet doer. Or maybe you speak up and you’re just so your presentation is so direct and logical and fact driven that it’s either too much information or too cold, and people are just not attracted to that,
Maria Ross 08:57
or it’s not persuasive, because people don’t see themselves in the story, and that’s why what I what I’m hearing you say and correct me if I’m wrong, there’s also it’s not quite just the niceness versus the results oriented, but also the like the storyteller versus the data driver. And having like, the combination of those two things come together where you’re not just thinking with your head, you’re thinking with your heart as well, so that you can connect with someone even, even if it’s B to B or B to C, it doesn’t really matter. It
Laura Camacho 09:31
does not because you’re dealing with people and it doesn’t matter, and it’s just hard for so many of us. I think in general, we put things into categories and labels, and, you know, we think of things as being binary and and the ratings and all the data, we all were all data driven. But at the end of the day, everybody is overloaded with data, right? And at the end of the day, the decisions, I don’t care you take the most data driven. Uh engineer, uh, technical person. They are still driven by emotion, absolutely that has remarked. They may not admit it. They may not even see it
Maria Ross 10:10
well. I mean, that’s why behavioral economics exists, because we don’t do things for the reasons that we think we do
Laura Camacho 10:16
exactly, exactly. So your executive presence. Let me just go circle back to that definition. The purpose of it is for other people to have confidence in you. It’s not you want to you have to have confidence in yourself. But the purpose of that presence, where you can state your point of view, where you can sell your ideas, is that it’s going to succeed to the degree that you inspire confidence in yourself from this C suite or the stakeholders, or the board of exec the board of directors, whoever the everybody’s got somebody to report to, and they need to have confidence in you, and your executive presence is your tool to inspire that confidence.
Maria Ross 11:00
So that’s a great segue to the third part of that question I started with, which was, can you have executive presence without empathy?
Laura Camacho 11:07
Absolutely not. You will be robotic. You will not connect. You will not care about people. I mean, I mean, you may actually care about them. Let me, let me clarify. There. A lot of times say the mistake I’ve seen, and many of my clients and I can just see it right off the bat. They’re so concise and they’re we introverts tend to economize on words, and so it seems like, Oh, she just answered my email with a two words and didn’t ask how I was doing. So Laura must not really care about me, and we don’t even consciously think that it’s just not it’s not resonating the message that’s just fact driven. And so we make that mistake, without the presence, without the empathy, to know that even though I have a short answer, I also want to say, I hope you’re having a good day, or exactly look forward to seeing you like that personal connection. It is indispensable. You cannot have executive presence without empathy well, and I
Maria Ross 12:07
think that’s about being able to take the pause. We talk a lot on the show about taking the pause, taking the beat, and recognizing that it’s not just about relaying information and then running out of the room. It’s also about making the connection, whether you’re, you’re, it’s a physical room, or it’s, you know, you’re shooting off the email without thinking about how the email is going to be received, and exactly. It’s interesting, because I think there are a lot of people who are very economical in how they speak and how they relay information, and I actually really admire those people, because I tend to ramble. So I really admire people that can just concisely sum up what I’ve said in 15 sentences into one sentence. Like I love that. I love saying economize. I think that’s a good way to put it, but that can be perceived as cold, uncaring, icy, whatever you want to say,
Laura Camacho 13:01
exactly yes and, or even snobby or even elitist. I mean, we fill
Maria Ross 13:08
in the gap, yeah, we think that means I’m really the person’s like, No, you asked me a question. I gave you an answer. Like, there’s, there’s no judgment there, right?
Laura Camacho 13:16
Exactly, see, that’s the whole thing. And that’s the introvert brain is just like, well, I answered the question and I and introverts was, it depends. It’s hard to generalize about every single one of us, but we don’t want to waste people’s time, you know. And so we’re just like, trying to always get it, you know, to the most were the least number of words for the most impact, which, like you said, is a great quality, but you cannot be so concise that people feel that you don’t care about them. Or, you know, you may need to sell your idea a little bit and connect it to the impact and not sometimes we think it’s obvious that, you know, Laura’s great idea is clearly what we should do because of some logic, but that doesn’t right.
Maria Ross 14:04
You’ve got to come back the dots for people, yeah, for sure. So while we’re on the introverted path, what other What other challenges do you see introverted types having with either building executive presence or even just advancing in the organization?
Laura Camacho 14:18
Well, that’s a great question. And the and there’s two sides to that, and one is that a lot of introverts tend to be internal processors, and that means that you ask me a question that I haven’t been asked before, or I haven’t prepared, and I’m deer in the headlights, but then five minutes later, I have this, you know, brilliant Tiffany’s quality answer for you, but the meeting’s over the moments past, and so that internal processing that’s, you know, that keeps us up at night, and we always think of these great answers, you know, in the shower. So that is a problem in executive meetings, where, if you’re intimidated. Because of your if people that you don’t know very well, they don’t know you very well, they have more power than you do, then you’re already like your brain is not as functioning as well. And then on top of that, if you’re an introvert who tends to economize on how much you say. And then up on top of that, you are internal processor where you need time to think about what’s being said, or you want to analyze it just a little bit. Then in the moment, you’re not going to say anything. And if they ask you a question, you’re going to, you know, maybe blurt out something, but it won’t be it won’t sound as confident, because you’re a hot mess in some Right, right? Whereas a extrovert, external processor may ramble a little bit, but it will eventually land the plane.
Maria Ross 15:45
Hopefully, yeah, hopefully,
Laura Camacho 15:48
hopefully, we’ll land the plane and not take too many take too long to do it. But yeah, they don’t sound like, riddled with doubt, yeah, like they’re, you know, going somewhere with it. Yeah, see it. And then if the person is on top of being an introvert is also highly conscientious perfectionistic, then they’re putting so much more pressure on themselves to to it’s like, well, if I can’t say it super eloquently, then I’m not going to say say it at all, exactly. And I say it’s better to say something badly than to not say it at all, because, first of all, it’s not going to come out badly. And even if it does, you can course correct, but you have got to break your mental box that you’re in like, Oh, when I feel this way, I can’t speak up. And of course, the answer to that, you know, that’s what I help my clients with, yeah, preparation. What are the what are the things that are likely to come up? What’s important to you? But see, we have to prepare for something
Maria Ross 16:45
well. And actually, in my first empathy book, the empathy edge, I talked about, I talked to an expert about how to run an empathetic meeting. And that was part of it, was accommodating different not only different neurodiversity, but different personality types, and being able to give people the agenda and materials to review ahead of time, so that if you do have introverts, you do have people that need to marinate on things for a bit, they can show up fully in the meeting, and you can actually get the benefit of their brain power in the meeting, versus just the loudest people in the meeting. You know, people like me will take up airspace. Meanwhile, these other folks have great ideas that we didn’t even consider because they didn’t get an advance notice of how to contribute to the meeting. And so I always joke that if we actually ran meetings in the effective way that you should run meetings, which is about having a clear goal, having agenda setting, sending things ahead of time, and then, you know, post meeting, sending the follow up, right, recapping the summary. We probably would have less meetings, because that’s actually a lot of work, right? And maybe that’s the key to less meetings, is make them better, prepare them better. Yes, people like you’re talking about, I have kind of an off road question. Yeah, what you were saying? Have you ever worked with an executive team that was over indexed on extrovert or introvert to the point that it was actually impacting their performance, and they didn’t realize why until they worked with you and discovered that,
Laura Camacho 18:21
oh, that is such a good question. Yeah, it happens a lot with leaders. You know, we tend to gravitate towards people like ourselves, right? Because we feel more comfortable and it’s just more natural and it’s just easier. And so yes, more outspoken people will tend to hire people like them, and vice versa. So yeah, the problem is, with a team, performance is like you said, you’re not getting everybody’s ideas your head. And then, not only that, like a person on your team who doesn’t normally speak up, well, it won’t take long where they will never speak up because they just feel like it’s not worth it. Oh, Maria’s there, so she’s gonna take over. I’m just gonna, you know, check out, and it can lead to demoralization, and it can lead to poor performance and
Maria Ross 19:17
and missed opportunities. Yeah. I mean, really, that’s, that’s what we’re talking about here. Is what, what could that person contribute, if we were more inclusive of their their personality type and management style. And I kind of have a follow on question to that, which is, how do you help? How can we, collectively, or even, like extroverted leaders, help mentor or include introverts. What are some some tactics or strategies that you have to help us help those people step into their executive presence? Oh,
Laura Camacho 19:53
I love that question, and it is so beautiful. I’m always so touched when an extrovert leader asks me that, because a lot of times. Times they’re thinking, Oh, Laura’s not speaking up because she doesn’t have anything to say, or she doesn’t care. You know that. So there’s all these judgments that are kind of logical. And so when an extrovert asks me, I just love it. And one of the main things is, well, to recognize that to ask them, if you ask them a question, and if you say, Hey, Laura, we’re going to talk about executive presence in this meeting. And I really want your top thoughts on that. And if you just mentioned that in the email or passing in the bathroom, whatever, like that that helps. Another thing that helps is to like, if, if this is you know more, I don’t know how you would apply this to virtual meetings, but back in the olden days, when you were all in the same
Maria Ross 20:46
room, the before times, yeah, you could
Laura Camacho 20:49
have everybody go to the whiteboard and, you know, just write an idea. Or you could, you could make it so everybody has to contribute one idea or one hole in this is the main thing that you need to do with that person in the one on ones is say, Laura Bob Jamal, like I, I want to hear more from you in meetings. And actually, a leader who sees potential and introvert needs to encourage that and maybe mentor them in how to speak up. But the problem that extroverts have is they don’t know what they’re doing. Like, if I were to ask you, Maria, so we’re going to this event, you know? How can I meet more people? And you would say, oh, Laura, just go talk to them. And I’m like, Oh my gosh. What do I say? Yeah, you know, yeah. And so anyway, it’s all. It all is, you know, the people who want to learn, they they learn how to learn. But if you’re a leader, introverts on your team or extroverts on your team, you just need to, you need to notice that. You need to notice and leverage and work with them so that you’re getting the best that everybody has to offer,
Maria Ross 22:03
right? So in terms of tips, what I hear you saying is ask them, and maybe that means even in the meeting, being able to do more of a round robin and giving everyone a chance to speak in the meeting, or giving them a heads up before the meeting to say, hey, we’re going to talk about this. And I’d love for you to be prepared to share some thoughts exactly, and then being able to call them in the meeting. And then also, it sounds like giving them an opportunity, or maybe, and maybe I read this into what you were saying, sort of giving them prompts Yes, or if you’re asking them to go meet some people, quote, unquote, at an event. Maybe you help them formulate some, some prompts or questions ahead of time that they can ask in that venue. So if you’re sending your direct report to a networking event to help them with their professional development, maybe you don’t just send them. Maybe you’re like, Hey, how are you kind of strategizing how you’re going to approach this event? Maybe, let’s think of some some icebreaker questions. Yeah, you could ask if you go and so maybe, as an extrovert, you can help them do that, rather than just sort of like you said, just go talk to
Laura Camacho 23:09
people, right, exactly. And I bet if we were to drill down, like, what you do at a networking event, you probably have one or two questions like, you know, what brings you to this meeting? Exactly? What are you excited about these days? But you don’t think about it, because this just adds something
Maria Ross 23:30
well, and when I get nervous, I when I get nervous, and extroverts get nervous. Let’s just be honest, they do. It’s very it’s it’s an easy tactic to get the pressure off yourself, which also feeds into empathy, is to your point earlier, ask questions. Yes, people love to talk about themselves. Yes. So if I’m feeling uncomfortable, and I’ve gone to networking events where I’ve known I know no one, so what I do is I kind of step in near a group, and I start asking questions of the other people, and it might be 20 minutes before they ask me about me, right? But that’s okay, because the impression they have of me is that I’m a good listener, and also I am just curious. I’m a naturally curious person. So that is going to create that connection with someone, because they’re like, oh, there’s, there’s something about Laura. She’s a really good listener. Well, it’s because you didn’t ask me anything about me, but, you know, anyway. But I find that that’s a great way. And then you can always be additive to that of like, Hey, Laura, what brings you here? You tell me. And then I can say, Oh, wow, that’s really interesting. I found out about this event. And then you can start talking about yourself exactly. And so, you know, we’re kind of dipping in and out of, like, executive presence and just, you know, social skills with people you know. So I want to kind of get back to executive presence a little bit more and say, what are some different tools to make what you want to say more clear and thus more empathetic. I know, you know. I know that things. I’ve shared in my books and in my work, but from your perspective, working with leaders, on on that executive presence and on that ability to be more clear, be more impactful, and more about what the other person needs. What are some of the different tools in your toolbox?
Laura Camacho 25:19
Maria, that’s such a great question. So the one thing that I think helps everybody with executive presence, because if you are interested in executive presence, I am assuming that you want to be an executive like you, want to first reach as far as influencing above you. And then
Maria Ross 25:36
would you also call that leadership presence, not just executive presence,
Laura Camacho 25:40
okay, it’s similar. I use executive presence because I deal a lot with ICS and then individual contributors. I mean, it’s just seems more gotta know you’re leaving yourself, but you’re right, right? I got you. I got you. So, yes, it’s the same thing, but what people need to see is your point of view, and this, this is the switch from being reactive. You know, you asked me for these deliverables. I delivered on time under budget, versus no, Maria, I think that that that we’re over indexing on x, and what I’ve observed is this and that. And even though you’re my boss, I think we should do, you know, I think you should look into, or let me look into this, like making suggestions and having a point of view about your domain. And that point of view has to do, has to be, what is working well and why, what is driving you crazy, and why? How You Can you make the company more successful? That’s the that’s the rub. That’s where the rubber hits the road. That’s where you start becoming senior leadership. When you have that idea in your head, and it’s not that you’re gonna, like we were talking about earlier, you’re not gonna present this. Well, I’m a, you know, just promoted to director, but I have a whole reorg plan for the company? No, it’s not that, but it’s, it’s, you know, we need to focus on a instead of B, or change with AI with our customers, like those things that are above your actual deliverables level, yes, the company level, or your division or business unit level, what are you seeing? Because the people that talk, they only see what they’re told that they’re not actually interfacing down with the customer like you probably are. So I think with executive press, I would encourage everybody listening, if you want, I would develop three to five things that you wish the president of your company understood about your domain, about your area and and not that you’re going to go knock on the door and tell her that maybe you would, but, but you have that kind of tea dub, and that’s going to serve as the raw material for Your intervention in meetings and speaking up in meetings, and I’m going to give a couple of tips about speaking up in these meetings and preparing for meetings where you’re the more junior person, and one is to speak up earlier, rather than later. Every meeting tends to generate momentum, and if you’re Junior and you don’t speak up in the first 10 or 15 minutes, it’s going to be super hard. Speak up later. However, one way to speak up at the very end, if you’ve just, like, haven’t pulled it together until the very end of the meeting, you could say, oh, I just want to clarify. What I’m taking away is blah, blah, blah, blah, like recapping the main points, because you’re probably a really good listener, and you’ve probably taken notes that would be a way to add value, because I’m talking about speaking up in a meeting to add value, not just to hear the sound of your voice, which is an anathema to introvert. So preparing what? How do you think you can add value to this meeting from your current place in the organization? Because, trust me, they will not ask you to come to any meeting, unless they see that you can add value. So you have to figure that part out. And and you want to, you know, keep it to the one thing you need that I see is this, or this thing is important, because, all right, these three trends, like one thing or three things, number them, keep it, you know, very nicely organized, and that will sound very executive. Presidency. Yeah. I love that, yeah. So preparing, speaking up early, speaking up in structure, with structure.
Maria Ross 29:37
And I think your point, we need to stress, your point about where the empathy comes in is that it’s not all about you. It’s about what is going to benefit the business, and that is about understanding what someone else cares about. So when you’re speaking to senior leaders and you’re speaking to or people you’re trying to influence, how can you speak in a language that’s not a do. About I want this thing because I want it right, versus if we do this thing our, you know, we said our goal was to increase revenue or increase customer retention or increase, you know, our satisfaction scores. And I believe that if we do this thing, here’s that, how that is going to be
Laura Camacho 30:17
impacted, exactly, and another, another research, because introverts love to do research. We love to analyze things is and but everybody should be doing this. If you are going to be in a meeting with people you don’t know, research them like what’s important to them. Find you know. Read their bio on LinkedIn, on the company intranet. They have an executive assistant. Maybe you talk to them. Maybe you ask your boss, hey, what do you know about Maria Ross? I hear that’s what
Maria Ross 30:46
good that’s what good salespeople do all the time, is they learn who’s going to be in the room, and they learn as much about those people as they possibly can before they go in the room. And I’ve always been in awe of sales people, because I’m a great marketer, but I have worked with sales people who we’ve been privy to the same conversation, and then we leave and I’m like, This is what I heard. And they’re like, Oh no, there was it. Was this and this and this, and they’re scared of this, and that person actually reports to someone else. They’re not the decision maker. And I’m like, how did you get all that from that meeting? So it’s definitely a skill when you have a good salesperson that understands, understands subtext, and understands how to read the room. But my point being is that this is why empathy is actually one. Empathy, combined with ambition, is the single largest success trait for successful salespeople. Oh, wow. And you wouldn’t think like salespeople empathy, but actually empathy is their greatest asset, because they come in what is important to you as I frame my talk or my pitch or my conversation, and I’m going to ask questions to find out what’s important to you, and I’m going to adapt on the fly based on what I’m getting back from you. That is a big skill. So we kind of went off on a
Laura Camacho 32:00
little Yes, but Maria, that’s so good, because that’s exactly what you’re going to do if you have executive presence. I mean, maybe you’re not going to go out on the
Maria Ross 32:07
street. And so you’re selling you’re selling yourself
Laura Camacho 32:11
Yes, and your ideas, and your ideas, exactly. I love it. That was so on point. I love it.
Maria Ross 32:18
So the last question I want to ask is, when the C suite is looking to promote someone internally, what qualities do they see that indicate strong empathy from the leaders and the executives that you’ve worked with? What are those indicators for them? I know what they are for me as like an empathy advocate and researcher, but from their viewpoint, how do they gage empathy. How do they gage that executive presence?
Laura Camacho 32:43
Okay, so one of the things they would look at is, you know, have there been any complaints about you? Because you know, if you’re you can have a problem with one person on your team or another stakeholder, and it can not be your fault, and it can, you know, there can be damage there that you need to take care of. So that would be kind of the baseline, like, make sure that nobody’s complaining about you, because the senior leaders they are, they have filtered information about you. They don’t have direct information. So do Pete, like, do people even know who you are? Do the peers of your boss know who you are. Have they heard your name? Because that that’s also going to be an indicator of your empathy. And if they’ve heard you know just what the vibe is, or what people are going to sum up your whole body of work in a couple of sentences. But in that’s going to include some reference, either overtly or in or implicitly, or are you easy to work with? And I think that would be kind of an executive filter for empathy is, do people like working with you? Because they certainly don’t want to bring trouble. You know that kind you can be super good at what you do, but if people don’t like working with you or writing complaints, or nobody knows you, yeah, those are gonna all be red flags.
Maria Ross 34:09
There’s that quote from Daniel Goleman, and I’m totally gonna butcher it here, but it’s something around if you don’t have empathy and emotional regulation, no matter how smart you are, you’re never gonna get very far
Maria Ross 34:20
correct. So I’m totally butchering the quote, the paraphrase, the paraphrase, yes,
Laura Camacho 34:25
is on point, exactly. And the thing is, you can be like inside of yourself, like, wish everybody the best and love everybody, but if they don’t feel it, then it doesn’t matter. So it’s not just feeling that you care about people, they have to feel that you care about them and that, yeah, you know that takes a little bit more effort investigation, just more work.
Maria Ross 34:51
I did see a study. It’s probably a little bit outdated now, but it was when I was researching the first empathy book that talked about your your. Managers will perceive you as a higher performer. If your team sees you as empathetic, does that make sense? It’s kind of like skipping a level, like they actually look at how your team talks about you, and if they if your team thinks you’re a very empathetic leader, you are actually rated as a higher performer by the people that rate your performance. That’s which I find so interesting.
Laura Camacho 35:26
Yeah, that is interesting, yeah, because they’re and because they’re looking at it, well, the team likes, likes you, likes to work with you, and that’s maybe, right, we maybe there’s also studies that when the your team like your leader, perform better, I would think that,
Maria Ross 35:40
yeah. I mean, I’m sure it’s all linked together, but yeah, exactly because they’re probably more engaged, they’re more motivated, they they have higher productivity, less absenteeism, all the things, right? So
Laura Camacho 35:50
yes, but that’s an interesting play on perception there. Yeah, right, yeah, down,
Maria Ross 35:54
yeah. Well, and I think because there are some leaders, and I’ve worked for them, who think that they can hide what they’re doing to their team, yes, from their superiors, right? And they can treat their team like crap, but as long as they look like the shining golden, golden child to the person they report to, that they’re going to be seen as amazing and that the data doesn’t bear that out.
Laura Camacho 36:17
Well, yes, but I have, I have coached situation where, individually, here and there, I work short term, for sure, short term, yes. So if you’re in that situation, and you’re listening, and you’re like, Maria, Laura, no, you don’t know. You don’t
Maria Ross 36:32
know my boss, yeah, yeah. Now
Laura Camacho 36:35
if you’re seeing that, yeah, I would say your boss is not going anywhere.
Maria Ross 36:39
I think it catches, yeah. I mean, having been through personal experience of this, it ultimately catches up to that person, exactly, right? So, and then the emperor has no clothes, and, yeah, exactly. Take heart. Take heart. Take heart. So I really love this conversation, because we’ve touched on a few things. We’ve touched on just executive presence and the role of empathy in showcasing your executive presence. But then specifically, I love this deep dive that we’ve done around if you’re introverted, all is not lost, right? You can still be a leader. You can still be you can still have executive presence. And you know, there are so many strengths in introverts that make them such good leaders, and especially that ability to listen,
Laura Camacho 37:22
yes, to listen and to think, to reflect, to take a pause, yeah, off the handle, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think they can be extremely good leaders. And I think Tech has is the domain where introvert leadership has just flourished. But of course, we don’t all work in tech, but definitely, you know, Susan Kane’s book about the power of quiet definitely legitimize being an introvert and help popularize the understanding of that our brains just work a little bit differently, and we’re not It’s not that we don’t like People get exhausted by so much chat, right? So, yeah, yeah,
Maria Ross 38:03
I think, you know, it’s great. Part of what I try to do that with this show is not only help, you know, share about empathy and how it can, you can leverage it in the workplace, but also provide empathy by talking to different people and explaining you know what their experience is like. So if you are managing or your colleagues with someone that fits that description, you can better understand them. So I think this is a great episode for those of us that work with introverts and want to better understand them, and what we can do to support them in being their, you know, be trite. You know, their best selves at work. So flourish. Yeah, to flourish Exactly. So Laura, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you for your insights. We will have all your links in the show notes, but for anyone on the go, where’s the best place they can learn about you and about your wonderful books.
Laura Camacho 38:52
Oh, thank you so much. Well, my website, speak up with Laura long but not
Maria Ross 38:58
we got it. We’ll have the link in the website, in the show notes. Yeah, sure.
Laura Camacho 39:03
You’ll see you know all kinds of Laura Camacho, executive presence content
Maria Ross 39:09
there. Great, great. Well, thank you so much for joining us today.
Laura Camacho 39:12
My pleasure has been an honor, and I loved your questions. Thank you so much. And thank
Maria Ross 39:17
you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do, rate, review and share with a friend or a colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slicemia. Never forget, empathy is your superpower. You. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
