Welcome to Courage to Advance, hosted by Kim Bohr and brought to you by SparkEffect, in partnership with The Empathy Edge.
Tune in to our subseries every 3rd Thursday, right here on The Empathy Edge! Or check us out at www.CourageToAdvancePodcast.com.
As AI revolutionizes how we work, what makes human executive coaching irreplaceable? Kim Bohr sits down with Rod Bacon, SparkEffect’s Chief Coaching Officer, to explore why transformative leadership breakthroughs happen through human connection, not algorithms.
Rod reveals what he calls “sacred pressure” in coaching relationships – the ability to create breakthrough moments through presence and challenge blind spots in ways AI cannot replicate. This conversation explores the neuroscience of trust-building, why discomfort drives growth, and how mirror neurons enable coaches to move executives from stress to creative insight.
Whether you’re defending coaching investments or seeking authentic development, discover why trust acts as a “force multiplier” in organizations and how vulnerability-based leadership creates the psychological safety teams need.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Biological synchronization between the coach and the executive creates conditions for transformation
- AI can ask questions, but cannot synchronize nervous systems or create a calming presence
- Growth requires “sacred pressure” – productive tension that human coaches apply with precise timing
- Trust acts as a “force multiplier,” enabling innovation, agility, and resilience
- Without trust, teams make false commitments in meetings but have real conversations elsewhere
- Mirror neurons enable coaches to regulate nervous systems, moving executives from stress to creativity
- The future is leveraging both AI efficiency and irreplaceable human wisdom
“Trust is the new strategic capital…it’s the interstitial connections which holds everything together.” — Rod Bacon
About Rod Bacon: Rod Bacon serves as Chief Coaching Officer at SparkEffect, developing world-class executive coaches and working with C-suite leaders across healthcare, pharmaceutical, and technology industries. His philosophy that “personal growth is professional growth” has guided transformative leadership development worldwide.
About SparkEffect:
SparkEffect partners with organizations to unlock the full potential of their greatest asset: their people. Through their tailored assessments and expert coaching at every level, SparkEffect helps organizations manage change, sustain growth, and chart a path to a brighter future.
Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.
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Website: sparkeffect.com/about/rod-bacon/
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/rodbacon/
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FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Hi. Welcome to another episode of the empathy edge, and especially my partner, episode with Spark effect, courage to advance, hosted by Kim Bohr, and I am excited for today’s episode for you. It’s titled, Why AI can’t call BS, and I couldn’t agree more. Today’s episode, Kim sits down with Rod bacon, who is spark effects, Chief coaching officer, and they talk about the irreplaceable human edge in executive coaching. So whether you’re defending coaching investments or you’re just seeking authentic development, they’re going to talk about why human trust, human to human trust, acts as a force multiplier in organizations, and how AI can’t always call your bluff, right? It can’t always challenge your blind spots. You really need that human to human interaction. They’re going to talk about neuroscience. They’re going to talk about mirror neurons, and they’re going to be talking about moving executives from stress to creative insight in ways that AI can’t. This is such a treasure today. Take a listen.
Kim Bohr 01:52
All right, everyone, let’s talk about leadership disruptors, and the number one that we are all facing right now is AI, yes, it can ask you powerful questions, but it can’t call BS when you are lying to yourself. And while AI can ask these powerful questions, it can’t synchronize a nervous system to re ground you. And while it can help validate your feelings, it can’t call your bluff what you need the most. I’m Kim Bohr, president and COO of Spark effect and host of the courage to advance podcast on this episode, we’re diving into why the most transformative leadership breakthroughs happen not through algorithms, but through the irreplaceable power of the human connection, productive tension and this biological synchronization. And I can’t think of a better guest to have to discuss this with than rod bacon, our chief coaching officer at Spark effect. Rod has held several executive roles prior to spark effect that have informed his work as an executive coach of C level leaders. His philosophy centers around the people and this idea that personal growth is really professional growth. I am so excited for this conversation. So let’s dive in. Rod, welcome to courage to advance podcast. Thank you. Happy to be here. So rod, everyone’s asking, Will AI replace executive coaches? But is that the wrong question? Is the real question, as AI takes over more of our analytical and tactical work, how do we evolve the kind of transformative leaders in our organizations that we will desperately need?
Rod Bacon 03:27
I like the framing of that question, and a couple things come up. First, I want to say the first part of your question, will AI eliminate executive coaches? I kind of want to say yeah, to the ones who aren’t really bringing those core human skills, where the executive coaches think everything is about asking the right question. That’s going to fall away, because chat bots and AI bots can do that. So we’ll explore what some of those deeper human capabilities are that I think are really critical for creating transformative change. And then the other part about your question about the need for transformative thinking is exactly what I see is going to be coming down the road, because the way I think about it, and I’m totally embracing it, and we at Spark effect are embracing it, is that AI is kind of like outsourcing that analytical thinking capability. So we’re going to get better at that. Everybody’s going to get better at that. Have the tools. The key thing that we need to get better at then is kind of managing, regulating our emotions, creating deeper trust and connecting with people. A good place to start on that, actually maybe, is in this area of kind of that regulation, when an executive coaches, least the ones that we develop and work spark effect. When they’re working with executives, it’s as much about who they are and how they are creating a resonance and a presence with whoever they’re working with than it is. It’s more about that than it is about just. Asking powerful questions.
Kim Bohr 05:01
I think one of the real important differentiators that we’ve been pulling forward as we’ve been rethinking this executive coaching with this AI, is that that biological synchronization, where we literally, when we’re in conversations, there’s nuance through body language, or there’s nuance through subtleties that we help bring forward that we don’t see AI able to do that in the same degree, right? We start off by saying there’s so much of the tactical task based stuff that is absolutely valuable, but not this next level, just isn’t there, and our belief is that it probably won’t be there rod walk us through what’s actually happening. You know, in the brain, when a coaching kind of moment breaks through, that makes this biological synchronization so important to our perspective in the way that we’re talking about
Rod Bacon 05:52
it. Yeah, perfect. Perfect. Because the essence of executive coaching, especially if we’re working with that transformative change, is creating that ability for the human to actually change under stress. What’s happening is that our amygdala is keeping us away from that kind of safety to be able to explore new opportunities, and it’s those mirror neurons that connect between us that create our resonance together. So the way I think about it is, when we meet with an executive, especially if they’re under stress, what’s happening is, if we are calm, if our nervous systems are regulated, it creates a space for the other, for the executive to kind of slow down and synchronize and create a resonance that amygdala, the threat center, starts to soften, and then they can have access to that prefrontal cortex piece where you’re able to look at yourself and think about what’s happening. But if you think about it, when we’re under stress, we don’t have access to that synchronization. So that’s why the element, the essence of the coach has to be self aware. They have to monitor their body, come into the relationship, hold that center, allow that regulation between the two systems to start to happen, and then you can start to access those that again, that prefrontal cortex and explore what you might do differently, access creativity and insight. Absolutely.
Kim Bohr 07:24
Do you have an example to share where that’s been brought forward, and are there some tools you might say these were some of the ways that you came to that place with this executive you were coaching?
Rod Bacon 07:35
Yeah, when I thought about just our conversation overall, there’s lots of examples, but I think sometimes it’s the simple ones that hit home again. Don’t over complicate them. I remember I was working with an executive at a biotech firm, and she was like an always on type A personality. It was a zoom based meeting, because other people will sometimes talk about, well, can we do this single application over zoom? And she was just going off again on the polished answers about what she was doing. Because when she came to coaching, she typically came in, I don’t know if it was a fear or a performance piece, but she was again, an always on person. But this particular time I remember she was just talking about all the different things were happening. And I took a risk. That’s something that executive coaches, I think, have to do, is stretch beyond what feels comfortable sometimes. And I don’t always do this, but with her, I just asked her, I said, Hey, I feel like we’re going really fast. Can we just slow down? Can we actually pause for 30 seconds and just breathe? And it was a bit of a stretch, and I could see her shift a little bit. And then we just paused longer. We hung out for a minute, and a shift seemed to happen. I can tell that she visibly changed a little bit, and she said, wow, that’s what I needed. And because she was able to slow down and start to connect, and from there, I was able to hear a lot is going on and what’s really going on underneath the surface, but it was that simple stopping and connecting, which brought attention to that resonance I was talking about. And from there, the relationship was able to change, and she broke open about how much stress she was under and stuff she was having to
Kim Bohr 09:17
do. Yeah, I love that example, because it really shows she was coming in with, this was another item on her agenda for the day, right? And she was just in that motion of checking the boxes and not really showing up to it sounds like unintentionally, she wasn’t showing up to do the work because she was just moving through the list of whatever was going on. And that sounds heavy too to hear you describe how she came in, I feel a weight in imagining what that was like. And I can also feel what you described as the reset of, Oh, I could feel their energy shift just by how you even paused in what you were sharing with us.
Rod Bacon 09:57
Yeah, it’s really amazing to me. Kim, how important. Important. And I want to say again, how simple. Because if we think about the biological nature of this, the idea of the mirror and neurons. Oh, by the way, I don’t know if you know of a therapist called resmaa McKenna. He wrote a book called my grandmother’s hands. It’s all about the somatic nature of doing therapeutic work. And one of the things I love what he said. He said clients don’t realize it, but when they come to me, what they’re coming to me for is to regulate their nervous system. That’s important. And the same concept we said before, if your mind is in that busy mode, if you’re under a lot of stress, the fight, flight and freeze mechanism is keeping us from that prefrontal cortex, that amazing thing that evolved in evolution that allows us to have that reflective nature and that creative thinking. So what resmaa says is that the responsibility of the therapist to work with, to breathe and to like, be that deep rudder so that the other can synchronize with them, so that they can do the work. And as you were speaking, I don’t want to go into too many stories, but another one came up to me where a very high powered executive, and she came into tears. I think sometimes it’s just that nature of really feeling like you’re seen. I love AI, and we’re using the heck out of it, but it’s this kind of thing where AI can’t do AI can ask the powerful question, AI synchronize a nervous system,
Kim Bohr 11:27
right? And that’s so important for all of us. And what you described in that work is really powerful to think about how, in some ways it’s very simple too, like the techniques can be very simple to just have that moment, and we talk about having those pauses, I think we use those a lot of time. That terminology is used so lightly and not understanding actually the power of it. What do you feel like you alluded to this around the synchronization when we’re talking about zoom, and how do you coach people when leaders, specifically, when they’re thinking about, hey, they’re teams, and we’re always on Zoom, and we’re moving through these meetings after meetings, and what is happening there, when there’s a need to say, Hey, I think something’s off. Or how do you try to have teams regulate? Or in those kind of settings where it’s not just one on one, well,
Rod Bacon 12:16
exactly. I mean, a lot of times people think in this virtual world of using zoom, again, it’s all around organizing the content or presenting in certain ways. But even over zoom, my belief is that the other humans on your team are looking for and needing that sense of human connection. And what’s fascinating, because when zoom first came out, all of our stuff in this world of COVID, I was on that side of being curious, looking at all the different fields in therapy, etc. Can they create the same kind of results in a virtual in a remote setting? And the answer is yes, because it’s about the pacing. It’s about having people feel seen. And sometimes with Zoom, we want to forget that and we go to content, but it can happen just the same so lots of ways, but really it’s very powerful, very doable, and it’s very important to slow down and do some of the same techniques that you do in a face to face for creating that synchronization over a zoom setting.
Kim Bohr 13:16
That takes us into this other pillar, if you will, we talk about at Spark effect, where we have a really strong belief that tension is really required for transformation to happen. And I know that may sound very controversial to some of the listeners, but if any of us think we often realize our biggest growth comes from the challenges we face, and I think it’s really important that we talk about, why is this discomfort so necessary for growth and thinking about that from the executive coaching perspective, I’d love to share your
Rod Bacon 13:50
thoughts. Well, something we talk about amongst our coaches sometimes is this thing of almost like sacred pressure. It’s like coaching is not just warm empathy, but it’s creating that place of tension where can happen. I mean, for all learning, even when you look at like a child learning to tie their shoes, there’s vulnerability and there’s failure. But as we get older, our identity sometimes forms so much around I’m not going to be vulnerable. Failure is not an option. It doesn’t look good on me. And we create this kind of layered shell of this performative nature of being, and by gosh, it’s the coaches in the world that are hired that they have to do their own work, to stretch, to be able to call BS when they see it, and create that tension. It’s not always easy. It takes training and a certain amount of courage, because coaches also are human, so they want to perform. They want to get to the right outcomes. And sometimes by creating this tension, you’re not exactly sure which way it’s going to go, but it’s critical. Again, the AI can offer insights, but they. Can’t call a bluff.
Kim Bohr 15:01
Yeah,
Rod Bacon 15:02
I remember a situation not long ago where one of the key things we run into in coaching a lot is people talking about cascading accountability down through their organization. I was working with one of our clients just recently, and that’s what he was saying. He’s a CEO hospital, and he was talking about accountability through his team, and why they’re not doing this, and etc, etc. And in this particular case, my kind of calling BS, a little bit, is when I asked him and said, So are you modeling the same kind of accountability? And he started to talk, and I just pause, and because I talked to him enough, and he knew what he was working on. And he paused in his story, and he said he not gonna let me off the hook. Are you? I love that exactly. And I said, that’s what you pay me for,
Kim Bohr 15:53
right? And that you don’t get from the AI world. Can’t say I’m calling BS on you at this very moment, because I could tell you’ve got some inconsistencies in what you’ve said in past conversations and what you’re saying now. Can
Rod Bacon 16:08
I share one? Yes, it’s a little bit tangential, but I work with a woman at the largest consumer company in the world, and she is partly responsible for driving insights for that company. She and I have been talking about all this AI stuff. She’s integrating both at work and in her personal life. She shared a story with me where she was in Australia a couple months ago, and she was having a very difficult time in a personal situation, and she was using AI and describing and AI knew all about her because she had uploaded all of her personality profiles, etc. So when she was describing the situation, AI was coming back and saying, you know, I totally can understand, given your profile, why this would be difficult, etc, etc. She told me, in the space of two weeks, three times, her dialog with AI brought her to tears in the way that she felt like, oh my gosh, I’m so fully seen and understood. Wow. But here’s where it gets interesting. Is it in the latter part of that two week period, she realized there was no growth happening. It was just validating. It was seeing her and validating, but she wasn’t getting any tension about what her role was, maintaining this dynamic. So she came back to me, and I’m her coach, and she was with a whole nother level of appreciation, how I would hold that tension if someone was saying, Well, this is what’s happening. This is what’s happening. Not just seeing her. I’m glad she was seen. It helped her. She touched her emotionally, but it wasn’t asking her, what’s your role in this? So that, again, that tension the value of AI and the incredible value of a well trained tension holder.
Kim Bohr 17:56
So what is the difference between this productive tension, like we’re talking about, and maybe what’s more destructive. Let me step back and say, I think it’s not uncommon in our American society that maybe this idea of tension or healthy conflict is very adverse, right? People aren’t often leaning into that, and our belief, as we’ve said, that’s where growth happens. So how do we help people see where this healthy tension opportunity is, versus something that could feel maybe more destructive, and not necessarily destructive because of the executive coach side, but just something where people like they’re so adverse attention they don’t even want to step into it. How do you help people realize where that can go? I guess
Rod Bacon 18:33
that’s a beautiful conversation, and one that takes some practice, because there has to be a little bit of risk in that. So part of how I’m transforming how I’m handling your question is part of my role as chief coaching officer at Spark effect has helped to grow and develop our coaches in this category. The conversation is, how do you know how much of that tension to bring? Yeah, without pushing someone over the line or being asked to walk out of the office, and that takes practice, but it does take some risk. I know I’ve been there a couple times myself where I’ve had that tension and wondered if I was putting my own job on the line. Every time I’ve done that, it’s come out well. So I think the answer to your question is through experience and discernment. In other words, if I’m bringing tension to our conversation, I need to be plugged into the why. Why am I going to say what I’m going to say? Because if I’m somewhat self aware, I can still get into a debate situation tit for tat and in my head and have challenges come from that place, or I can be more connected to what is my job here with the person I’m coaching, bring tension and discernment, yeah, making sure what I’m there and discerning how much, and then taking some risk. But I think we’re asking the coaches to bring con. Consistent self awareness into the dynamic. So they’re not doing tension just for tension sake, for performance, but in service to the growth of the other
Kim Bohr 20:12
one of the things I know you are deeply invested in for yourself as an executive coach, as well as what you’re bringing forward to the executive coaches at Spark effect is a level of self awareness training. I think it’s really important to talk about that, because part of what you’re speaking of now and what we’ll talk about in this next segment, is really how it goes into the trust, right? But in order, one of the things I think is beautiful about the level of coaching you do and what we provide at Spark effect is that it’s elevated. It’s meant to bring growth, as we’ve talked about, but it’s also about checking our own biases, and how do we come forward? I think that’s worth us talking about that a bit, because that’s so powerful to this level of work we’re speaking
Rod Bacon 20:57
to. I don’t know if you just what you’re speaking about in general, but what we’ve just been piloting, and what we are going to be rolling out formally at Spark effect is providing what’s called coaching supervision to our coaches, which is not an oversight role about what work they’re doing. It comes out of the therapeutic field. It’s well adopted and required in most coaching organizations in the European nation, but it’s really to grow that self awareness, because if we’re working with one of these executives, we sometimes aren’t aware that we’re bringing in our own biases, and it’s end up being a filter between the work that we’re trying to do with the coaches, and as I said a minute ago, around that discernment, we can go into an argumentative debate of space, but it may not be in service. And that’s a great example, actually. Like, if I have a executive I’m working with, if they’re very analytical, and I feel like I can meet you there, that’s what’s happened, at least that’s what happened for me. Because, yeah, educated, etc. And if I meet someone who’s type A and they come to the field of our coaching with that analytical piece, like, I’m a genius. If I’m not careful, there’s a part of me that can do that too. I’m good enough. Let’s go, yeah. And so the work is to see when that is appropriate and when that is not. If I’m responding in that way because I’m good enough to be able to play in that space. But what I’ve developed over the years, and what I know is that what really is good enough and most effective for me is to have that counterbalance, be able to meet them, not at the level that they want to play, always to a certain degree, and then maybe to gain confidence. But if I’m unaware, I may be in a loop pattern, and I’m not really working and supporting that coach, so there’s just that awareness. Yeah, coaching supervision is a place where we bring our coaches, they start talking. We’re not breaking down in any detail the client they’re working with or the details that’s confidential, but we look at the pattern, and we create a space where they can get the same awareness that we just talked about, all in effort to have cleaner, more effective coaching conversations, more impact for the client organization and the individual, because that’s who we are serving, not ourself. I just felt that come up. I get anger when I see people entering the coaching field, because they like to do people work. It makes them feel good, and you got to grow past that. That’s why I said earlier in our conversation, AI eliminate half the executive coaches. What we’re looking for are people can have this self awareness, not just meet in patterns, but really be discerning and figuring out how to do the work to serve the client,
Kim Bohr 23:46
as you were speaking in an example of situation I had. I was doing a CEO evaluation a few years ago for a CEO in a healthcare space, and we were debriefing the results. It was a challenging evaluation that was done through a 360 process where the board was weighing in the peers were weighing in direct reports, I shouldn’t say peers, but direct reports and some other levels in the organization. And in order to do the debrief, the CEO already had an executive coach that was not a part of the spark effect organization. We invited that coach to join because we thought that would be very good in implementing what came from this evaluation? What was really surprising was that this coach didn’t try to defend the results and the CEO and tried to bring their own biases into and really not providing space for growth. What was interesting is the CEO said, I don’t need you to defend me. And that was a really interesting moment. What came up for me as you were describing the coaching supervision, this extra investment that these coaches do to try to put their own biases in check, is that’s a huge that isn’t necessarily every coach’s way of operating. And it really can be detrimental to the growth of an executive or anybody taking having coaching if you don’t have that level of experience to come in to say, I’m holding the space for you and leaving some of these belief systems of our own behind. So that just popped into my head as you were speaking. And I think it takes us to the other pillar that we have really strong belief in the trust is so important when we think about building trust. How does that show up in the C level leaders you coach when we’re trying to challenge as you describe the egos and the experience are there and trust is so critical.
Rod Bacon 25:39
I think trust is the new strategic capital. Trust is the interstitial connections which holds everything together and what is so difficult, I think for a lot of again, type a individuals to play in that space of what are the behaviors that actually start to build trust? And for me, one of those, oftentimes, is a level of vulnerability, because when I’m working with a team and you can show where you are concerned about your own capabilities, you’re not perfect, you’ve had some failures. It creates the space where other people can start to actually ask for help on things that’s important, what’s horrible, what’s most damaging in an organization is when it’s like the Wizard of Oz. Don’t look behind the curtain. Everybody in that same kind of modality, if you have a team together, and everybody is like, Hey, how’s it going in your section? Rod, I know you had the big project you’re working on, and my only response is, I got it. And someone else will say, Well, I’ve got some resources if you needed it. Want to ask questions and I want to deflect, because I don’t want to be seen as not being fully capable. And it’s such a strange inverse piece, that when you can start to share that you’re also human, you’re fallible, you don’t have it all together. You need resources. When you can start to actually resource yourself and be more effective. And the ripple effect is it creates that level of trust on another category in that right now, I’m working with another executive, and it’s interesting. He’s on the other side of the spectrum. He’s very even keeled calm. Everybody loves this person. He’s relatively new into his role about a year and a half as a CEO, but he doesn’t show much emotion. I don’t know if it’s not his natural place to be, right? Yeah, but in our conversation, what the 360 people were saying the organization is too soft. When the CEO said, We need to get certain things done, the resulting experience of it was, how does that differ from what was said two weeks ago or a month ago? In other words, what he is needing to work on is more dynamic range. Yeah, and how he communicates to our conversation about trust, if I get upset about something, I’m not advocating. We in anger, but we get frustrated. We have things where suddenly something is more urgent than another, and if our communication is always even keeled, people don’t know what you really need or what you really mean. And if they don’t know you, they don’t fully trust it. The connection is when I see and feel your emotions, whether it’s sadness, frustration, joy, et cetera. I trust you more.
Kim Bohr 28:26
That makes sense. People will
Rod Bacon 28:27
often think, well, that calm, even demeanor, is good, but actually it’s not as trustworthy. You don’t know where the person stands when they need something.
Kim Bohr 28:36
Let me ask you something that it just prompted as well. When you talk about that example in the work I’ve done, sometimes, what I have come across in what you’re describing is that there’s this fallacy that we as leaders can fall into that is something of the effect of, hey, I hired this person at the senior level to do this work. They should know what they need to get done and do it. Why am I having to deal with it? There’s this fallacy of like, since I hired you for this, I shouldn’t have to lead you. And I think what comes to mind when you say that is, sometimes there’s this missed expectation setting around. What’s at stake if we miss this mark? Where have we come from? Where are we at today? Where’s the deadlines that have to happen? And if we miss them, what’s going to happen? So to what you were describing, I often see that as some components too, of that range of sometimes we think like, Hey, we’re all in this together. And really, people still need to be led. Even at the most senior levels, they need direction and motivation and inspiration and correction as well. Would you agree? Oh,
Rod Bacon 29:41
yeah, absolutely. And to our connecting that back to the trust piece, okay, him, tying it all back what you described partly, when we say, well, I’m hiring expertise, so I shouldn’t need to lead them, that sounds like I’m hiring an AI bot.
Kim Bohr 29:55
That’s a great point, and that’s something we fall into, isn’t it? As humans. Yes, because we’ve done all the work. Yeah, you said you have the qualifications. Have at it. Yes,
Rod Bacon 30:06
what we’re talking about is that nobody is that way, right? We’re complex systems. We’re humans, and because of our need for identity and acceptance and performance, sometimes we are presenting ourselves as being a little bit more capable, or having everything buttoned down that it is. And so that leader leads in part by creating trust and doing that in part by showing some of their own vulnerability. And when they, for instance, in that scenario, that leader might say, you look very capable, et cetera, I’m not sure how I could best lead you. Where is it that I could add value? Because now engaging in the conversation, yes, and they’re calling out the fact that I know you’re not as perfect as you seem. So help me understand how I can lead you. And if they can use an example in their own style, maybe I come off this way. And here’s what I come off as versus what I mean, they start to create that openness for the human to human trust. Trust is a force multiplier.
Kim Bohr 31:08
Yes, I love that. It’s so powerful. Just to hear you say that it absolutely is, when we think about relationship building this way and the dynamic of trust, sometimes people think, Well, what’s in it? For me, what’s the ROI of it? And I think we know that there’s ways of measuring it through 360s and interviews and conversations, but what’s the case you make to executives you coach around, why this will have a return for them. That little
Rod Bacon 31:36
quip, trust is a force multiplier is great, but the other piece is innovation, agility, resilience, all of those pieces won’t stick without that human trust in it, and if you don’t have trust, then you’re not going to be able to challenge each other, right? Lack of trust, especially vulnerability based trust, means that don’t call me on my stuff. I won’t call you on yours, if we flip that around where we have the trust and I can call you on your stuff. You can call me and my stuff when we start to have that necessary conflict in organizations to work out that one of the biggest issues that I see in organizations is when teams say that people are not bringing everything to the table. They’re not having these difficult conversations in the meetings or in their one on one. They’re having them at the water cooler. They’re having them other places, which means you get together and you say, we need to get this done. I’m sure you experienced it. We have an agenda. We need to get this stuff done two, three weeks out later, people aren’t getting stuff done. Well, what’s the gap here? Everybody said, we all committed to it, but if they committed to it, but they didn’t have the trust where they could actually debate each other and say, I don’t think then it’s a false commitment. Yeah, very much. So it’s one of the worst things in an organization, because you spend all of this energy and time kind of aligning project plans and getting the commitment you think, and then there’s the lack of follow through. And everybody has good reasons. The result of that, I mean, that stems from this lack of trust, which means you can’t have the right level of kind of conflict and working out the details, the ROI of trust is just in medicine. It’s
Kim Bohr 33:16
huge. As we start to wrap up our conversation, you think about our listeners, if you were to put on your C level hat outside of our spark effect world, what’s your one takeaway defending the human coaching investment when the AI is everywhere and so easily accessible,
Rod Bacon 33:34
I’d say that what we have to watch out for. We’ve touched on some of it in this conversation is we all know the power and the importance of the brain, of the analytical piece, and with AI, it’s just going to give us more access to more stuff like that. And what is harder to see, because we spend our whole life going through colleges and getting experience and with over rotating on making sure we have the market information and how we handle things. And this other piece that we’re talking about, the power of the system synchronizations, the ability to discern and have the right level of tension. Because love means tension. I mean growth, the idea of having this level of trust that’s this force multiplier, all of those human capabilities, what I’m hoping and what I think is our path to salvation is that, yes, let’s outsource more of the brain. But for the CHROs, the CEOs, the VPs, understand that it’s, I’m sorry, there’s no shortcut. Is the human to human trust, synchronization, creativity, tension, that will allow us to actually create the cultures and get things done that we need to get done. So do both, yeah, trust in AI, learn how to use it and trust yourself. That would be maybe the closing statement. Is it trust for the CHROs out there, your instincts are right. Yeah. You got into the HR division overall, as opposed to finance, because you had human centric capabilities. Don’t let those get washed away with all of the AI stuff that human element. Trust your instincts. We are biological systems, and we need to work together and understand those dynamics and layer on top of that, this new outsourced brain that we’re having called AI
Kim Bohr 35:27
fabulous rod. Thank you so much for this conversation. I think we’ve got more coming. As we continue to do our work, I’m sure we’ll be having more conversations together with our audience, for our listeners, we have free resources that are very relevant to our conversation today that you can download by visiting courage to advance podcast.com and it will take you to our spark effect podcast page. And again, Rod, thank you so much for this very insightful and dynamic conversation. I want to also thank our empathy edge podcast for hosting us, our partners there in the sub series, and to our listeners for tuning into this episode of courage to advance where Transformative Leadership isn’t about having all the answers, it’s about having the courage to find them.
Rod Bacon 36:11
Love it. Love it. Well, I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much. See you next time. Thank you
Maria Ross 36:18
for more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
