Years ago, I was introduced to a former Marine and FBI counterintelligence officer whose job was to recruit spies to help protect our country. His secret weapon? Empathy. Finding out what is important to someone so that they can then build trust and find shared goals.
Robin Dreeke joins us again today to talk about his latest book, Unbreakable Alliances: A Spy Recruiter’s Authoritative Guide to Cultivating Powerful and Lasting Connections. He shares the four keys to communication and the difference between inspiration, influence, and manipulation. He shares the behaviors of trust required to inspire people to feel safe. We talk about how to engage empathy to inspire people to open up, share their context, and forge those unbreakable alliances. Finally, Robin shares a great definition of active curiosity and what it can do for both your relationships and success.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Every little word and emotion matters.
- You have to balance the dichotomy of vulnerability and confidence.
- Four keys of communication: seeking the thoughts and opinions of others; talking in terms of challenges and priorities that other people are dealing with; non-judgmental active curiosity; and empowering people with choice.
- We need to be asking better questions – focus on what they want to share, not what you want to ask.
“Active curiosity is taking it to the next level – don’t just be curious about what it is you want to know, but be curious about what it is they want to share.” — Robin Dreeke
Episode References:
- The Empathy Edge podcast: Robin Dreeke: Spycraft and the Leadership Code of Trust
About Robin Dreeke, Executive Coach, Speaker, Former FBI, and Author, Unbreakable Alliances
Robin Dreeke is an accomplished Executive Coach, Best-Selling Author, and Professional Speaker with an impressive background. As a Marine Corps Officer and retired FBI Special Agent, he served as Chief of the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, where he honed his skills in Recruiting Spies and Behavioral Assessment. Today, Robin has translated his expertise into his unique Interpersonal Communication Strategies that focus on Recruiting Allies in business. Since 2010, he has been working with Executives, Corporations, Entrepreneurs, the Military, and Law Enforcement to help them Forge Trust, Solve Challenges, and Lead. Robin’s People Formula has helped countless individuals and teams achieve quick, measurable results and maximum success. Whether you’re a newly promoted leader, executive, sales team member, or customer relations specialist, Robin’s proven strategies will help you excel.
Connect with Robin:
Website: robindreeke.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/rdreeke
Facebook: facebook.com/ForgedbyTrust
Instagram: instagram.com/rdreeke
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books
Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
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Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Years ago, I was introduced to a former Marine and FBI counter intelligence officer whose job was to recruit spies to help protect our country. His secret weapon empathy, finding out what is important to someone so that he could then build trust and find shared goals. We’ve been empathy compatriots ever since. Robin Dreeke is an accomplished executive coach, Best Selling Author and professional speaker as a Marine Corps officer and retired FBI special agent. As a Marine Corps officer and retired FBI special agent, he served as chief of the counter intelligence behavioral analysis program where he honed his skills in recruiting spies and behavioral assessment. Today, Robin has translated his expertise into his unique interpersonal communication strategies that focus on recruiting allies to business. Since 2010 he has been working with executives, corporations, entrepreneurs, the military and law enforcement to help them forge trust, solve challenges and lead Robin joins us again today to talk about his latest book, unbreakable alliances, a spy recruiter’s authoritative guide to cultivating powerful and lasting connections. Today, he shares the four keys to communication and building trust, and the difference between inspiration influence and manipulation. He shares the behaviors of trust required to inspire people to feel safe, and why you can’t actually convince someone of anything. We talk about, how to engage empathy, to inspire people to open up, share their context and forge those unbreakable alliances that his new book is all about. Finally, Robin shares a great definition of what active curiosity is and what it can do for both your relationships and success. Our conversation took some interesting twists and turns into parenting and true crime, and you get to hear some cool stories from his spy days. Take a listen. Welcome once again. Robin dreek, to the empathy edge podcast. It is always a pleasure to talk to you.
Robin Dreeke 02:51
You lighten up my day every time we contact each other, and so it’s such an honor to be back Maria.
Maria Ross 02:56
I know we were just saying how we couldn’t stop doing the pre record chat, because we just kept going and going and going. But yeah, we’re here today to talk about unbreakable alliances, your newest book, and the subtitle a spy recruiter’s authoritative guide to cultivating powerful and lasting connections. And I think creating those unbreakable alliances is really what we’re all after. And as you and I have talked empathy is one of the keys to creating those alliances. So for those who are not familiar with you, tell us a little bit of your background. I’ll also link to our first episode that we did together about spycraft, but tell us a little bit about your background. It’s
Robin Dreeke 03:38
I’m taking my pause because it’s always hard not to say the first thing that always pops in my mind is my background is number one thing in life is I’m a dad. I am such a proud father, and I suffer proud parent syndrome to the nth degree. Everything I’d learned in my professional life gave me a skill set to be the father I am my because again, I’m going to glow first. And my son is a Marine Corps jet pilot, and my daughter is a labor and delivery nurse. Um, I have two adult children that are just rocking it, killing it, and the best part of every single day is them sharing their day with me. I just got off my phone again with my son this morning. After every single flight, he calls me, tells me about the flight, tells me about the cool stuff he does, and I just light up inside. Oh, the thing that gave me the skill set to do that was I’m a, I’d say, Naval Academy graduate. I went to the Marine Corps afterwards, after my stint in the Marine Corps, got out as a captain, I came in the FBI. Was in the FBI, I served as a counter intelligence agent. My job was recruiting spies for my entire career, and I was a member of the behavioral analysis program for counterintelligence. I became the chief of the behavioral analysis program, so I did all the hooky, spooky spy stuff for the FBI as an instructor at Quantico, blah, blah, blah, and there you go. That’s it.
Maria Ross 04:44
I love it well, and that’s actually what you know that’s led you into a life of being an executive coach and a speaker to help leaders just build those connections. And my first question to you, because it was something that really jumped out at me from reading your book. What. Was the difference, because when we talk about, you know, empathy, and we talk about creating connections and building trust through empathy, we all know reality, and we all know that there’s some bad actors in the world that manipulate through empathy, and they try to coerce, to manipulate, to get what they want out of the interaction. So you had a great breakdown of the differences between inspiration, influence and persuasion. Can you share that with our listeners
Robin Dreeke 05:30
today? Yeah, you know, when you work in the world of recruiting spies, where no one has to talk to you, you know, because whether it’s the intelligence officer themselves that you’re trying to recruit, or the people around them in their lives, that you’re trying to glean information from to learn about this individual you want to have a conversation with. No one has committed a crime, and when no one’s committed a crime, and you’re in the FBI making an approach to try to have a relationship and a conversation with someone, no one has to have a conversation with you. And so if you have in your mind what you want to learn, what you want me, me, me, what’s your reaction? Shields up good out of my life. Why do I want to have a conversation with you? And so I have found that every single word you use and you think about just emanates from you, also from your non verbals, your verbals, your energy. And so the more you focus you are on yourself, everyone picks up on that. And so in order to get out of that, we I had to let go. And again, there’s no right or wrong. There’s just choices. I can just guarantee choices of human behavior. If you’re focused on yourself and what you want, people are going to shut down. They’re going to ignore you. They’re going to be polite potentially, but they’re not really going to respond in a way that you hope they will. And so I really felt this nuance was really key and critical. At first, I got away from the word convince anyone, because you cannot convince anyone of anything. And then people like using the word persuade and influence, because they’re softer words and they’re nice words. And you look up the definitions that I put in the dictionary about how to Yeah, they keep coming back the same word, influence someone to do this, or get someone to do this, or shift their mindset. But remember, every one of those things I’m saying, where’s the focus? It’s on what I want. But again, if I’m focusing on what I want, the number one thing I’m not doing, which you talk about so eloquently in both your books, is I’m not understanding what they want empathy doing a deep, active dive. And so I use the word inspiration here. This inspiration forces your mind to shift from what you want and really think about, how do I inspire them to want to because inspiration is literally just doing that deep, active, empathetic dive to unlock from within them their challenges, pain points and friction points in life. So you can understand life through their optic, through their lens, and then start thinking in terms of, what can I do to be a resource for them, allow them and inspire them to feel safe with me, so they might want to align, and thereby you’ll have trust and ultimately, the healthy relationship that they choose to have because they see you as someone in their life that they can move forward with. So that’s the really the key, to me, is getting away from the words that are self centered and focused for your goals and objectives and priorities and thinking in terms of inspiring so you unlock it with them. Now, granted, you know what it is you want. You know what it is your hopes, dreams and desires and goals and objectives are that’s in the back of your mind. You don’t have to actively make that the forefront. You will automatically align it when you discover theirs. That’s all you’re offering. When you’re offering a relationship, when you’re offering solutions to things in your life, you’re automatically aligning what it is that you’re hoping for with what it is you’re unlocking within them.
Maria Ross 08:40
So where do influence and persuasion fall into that? Is it all the same? I put
Robin Dreeke 08:45
influence and persuasion on the same line. I really do to me. They’re the same words, because, again, they’re about what I want. They’re about what I’m trying to get you to think, what I’m trying to get you to do. And again, I’m not talking about intentions here. Intentions can be altruistic. Intentions would be good. But when you’re I use my little non verbal here. You know, when you’re dealing with little micros, or, as James clear talks about atomic habits, when you’re talking about one atomic particle, when you’re trying to put all the possibilities of success that you can on your side. Every little word matters to me. Every little emotion matters, every little everything matters. And so if I can just get rid of all the agenda that I have and focus on their agenda. It’s just it makes a difference. It might not be the only difference, but when you cascade that with other behaviors, you’re setting yourself up and them up for greater
Maria Ross 09:32
success together. And you talk in the book about, you know, the whole linchpin to creating these unbreakable alliances is a focus on trust. And what I always get is the question, how do I build trust? And, you know, they’ve got their pad of paper out. They’re ready to take notes on what I’m gonna say, in a way, you know, that’s not really my expertise is psychological safety or trust. So I’m like, I don’t know, how do we build trust? So in your experience, how can you build trust? Especially when. There could be a perception of contention. I mean, you’re like you said, you’re dealing with people who are very wary of you and very protective of themselves. Think, you know, expand that to a work situation where you have a very contentious relationship with a colleague, or you have direct reports who don’t believe a word you say, let’s say that’s the situation. How do you build trust in a genuine way? What are some ways that leaders need to put in what are some things they need to put in place, and what are some mindset shifts they need to have in order to build that trust with people? There’s
Robin Dreeke 10:36
a few things I’m going to try to it is very simple to say, challenging to do, because our ego and our vanity, our own insecurities and trauma responses we have to others flare up to keep us from doing these behaviors. But the first thing I’m going to do is kind of share very simply what the behaviors of trust are as I define them. Yes, it’s really simple, open, honest communication, transparency and vulnerability. That’s it, because when you are being open, honest with the information that you’re looking for, the information that you’re sharing that inspires someone to feel safe. Because first, let’s go to the baseline of all human beings as a species, each of us are extremely predictable, because we were all seeking safety, security and prosperity from the other person’s point of view, empathy, as long as you know what that is doing a deep dive of what they think safety, security and prosperity looks like from their point of view. You’re on the road to trust, and the bedrock of all it is people just want to feel safe. They want to feel safe physically, they want to feel safe emotionally. Want to feel safe spiritually. So if you’re the person and you exhibit behaviors that inspires them, not makes them, inspires them to feel safe. That’s trust. And so what are the key behaviors that I can do? Because I can’t control what they think. I can’t control the perception. All I can do is control me. The behaviors that I can control for myself is that open, honest communication, the next is transparency. I get asked this a lot, so, Robin, you’re using, you know, all these tools, techniques and strategies to build rapport, build trust, and blah, blah, blah, blah, are you doing it to me now? What ensuring that I’m making it all value absolutely I’m doing the best I can, because naturally, I’m self centered. You know, I’m overcoming my own trauma responses from my childhood and growing up to move on, from solving my problems to moving on to solving your problems. So that requires a little bit of effort of my time. At this point my life. I got life reps and so, you know, it’s more of a habit for me now than a thoughtful process. But yes, I am doing it because I want to make it about you. And so what was I just doing? Being transparent. So when in doubt, how do you make sure and ensure that someone knows that you’re not manipulating or influencing persuaded in any way? Just be transparent with what you’re doing, what your goals, your agendas, everything. Now this takes courage, because people get afraid to share what their goals and objectives, because it takes courage. But you know what? No one’s expecting perfection. They’re expecting effort. They hope forever. Because the other thing that we’re all guaranteed as human beings also is no one’s perfect, not even close. And so if you try to present an air of perfection in all that you do, you erode trust, because you’re not being transparent. And the final key here is the really brave one, being vulnerable and being vulnerable just just means that you are self aware enough, like Tasha York talks about in her book, insight, is that you just have enough self awareness and self confidence and assurance that you can share. Hey, here’s what I’m working on. Here’s not what I’m so good at, but at the same time, here’s the skills, tools and techniques, or the other relationships I have to offset that in me and my team. Same time, here’s what I’m good at, and so here’s what I’m going to bring to bear, really naturally for you, and then just own it. So those are the behaviors of trust. Yeah, I’m going to keep going. Or you can ask a question, no, lots of words in here. I’m so
Maria Ross 13:39
sorry. No, I love it well, and that’s why you know, with the second book I talked about, the first pillar of empathetic and effective leadership is self awareness. It’s also the first step in strengthening your empathy. But you know, if we don’t know what we’re dealing with, if we don’t know we don’t have our own house in order, as I always like to say, we really can’t take on another person’s perspective without fear or defensiveness, right? Because we’re too stuck in our own stuff and and, you know, I’m always beating the drum on this when I’m out doing talks. Is vulnerable does not mean you fall apart. That’s the perception people have, right? No, I’ve got to keep it together. Vulnerable. You can be confidently vulnerable. I don’t know the plan for that yet, Robin, but let’s find out together. That’s a vulnerable position to say, I don’t know, but you don’t, it doesn’t have to put you in a position of weakness.
Robin Dreeke 14:27
You just said it though, right there, you know, you just actually said something very vulnerable that you’re, I’ve got to put on these errors to try to, you know, present that I got it all together, but I don’t that was a very vulnerable statement, right? Because you’re and you’re and you’re being transparent about what it is you’re trying to do, because you’re trying to present these great things at the same time you you have the self awareness understand, you don’t have it all together, right? And when you share that and you couple it with competence, because a really important thing here, where that people want to partner with you is that you can con that you can balance the dichotomy, the vulnerability, with confidence. Competence, because all you’re ever doing is saying, I’m vulnerable, I’m not good at this. Exactly. Why would I want to work with you? You’re right rags that can’t do anything, or you’re so insecure, or you’re fishing for compliments, you’re fishing for this, you know. So that’s what you don’t want. So you want to balance that dichotomy, as late Babban and Jocko will link, talk about in dichotomy of leadership and Extreme Ownership is that you want to everything is a balance. You got to balance this dichotomy, the dichotomy between being vulnerable and confident, because that’s what people are hoping to see absolutely and so few people do this. All you have to do is be the one person that can do it, or at least make the effort of doing it, and who wouldn’t want to partner with you,
Maria Ross 15:40
right? Well, and that’s, and I was kind of paraphrasing a leader saying that, like, look, I, you know, there’s a crisis within a company. I don’t have all the answers right now, you can say that, and you can say that with confidence, rather than, I don’t have all the answers, I’m falling apart. Like, that’s the vulnerability. A lot of leaders think art is expected of them, and that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about being able to admit when you know something, when you don’t know something, be open, put your ego aside enough to say someone else might have a better answer, someone else might have a different point of view, and also that growth mindset of I’m not a perfectly formed version of myself, no matter if I’m the CEO or the chairman of the board or chairperson of the board, it’s just that we have to always know that there’s more we can learn, more ways we can grow. And that’s what we mean by vulnerability, is being honest about that journey and saying I’m we’re all still learning. We’re all still works in progress, and that’s okay. I can still have confidence, I can still be grace under pressure, I can still make a strong decision, but I can also be vulnerable and authentic while doing that. And I think that’s the balance that some leaders have a challenge doing, because they’ve only learned to be a leader and in their minds, build trust through I have all the answers. I’ve got it all covered. I am perfect. I am flawless, right? And so how do we how can we inspire to use your words them to shift their mindset, that it’s okay to let that guard down, that maybe that was a model of leadership you were exposed to for most of your career, but that’s not the model of leadership that’s going to help you find success today.
Robin Dreeke 17:24
I think the challenge in that is, anytime someone has a belief system to move someone beyond their own personal belief system, we tend to only consume information that validates our own belief system. Robert Greene talks about in laws of human nature, you know, as a species, again, we consume information and validates their own self opinion. That’s why the two leading news networks are CNN and Fox News. Why are those two dilute? That’s why they both have large audiences that you cannot shift from one side to the other, because people consume the information they want to consume. And so same thing with a belief system. The only thing that can start shifting a belief system is to demonstrate, you know, and so I would say, as a CEO, if you’re trying to inspire them to adopt, or at least consider, I won’t say, adopt, at least consider a new mindset on how to approach is that you’re going to have to demonstrate the cause and effect, and do, basically do a simple science experiment for them, show them a stats, show them the data. But the same time, it’s going to have to be real life. It’s going to have to be demonstrated with a control and an experiment. And that’s what science experiments are, and that’s what human beings are. You know, every time something goes sideways with one of my children or even a client, the first thing I always say is, all right, what’s next? Who do we need to have a conversation with? What relationship do we need? And let’s not change 50 million things at once. Just Just pick one, watch cause and effect and move forward. All these things do require courage and require a lot of patience sometimes, which, if we’re bottom line and we have a high tempo, we can’t do but same mind. You know, here’s a guarantee, though, the easiest way to inspire some of the change is ask them, Are you satisfied with what’s going on now? Then what would it cost you to actually try something different, right? Again? What’s the definition of crazy? Do the same different results every time as I literally. So I was telling before we started, I do a lot of true crime, on commentary, on the news and on different podcasts. And we’re looking at this one case that this individual was saying, actually it’s it’s the Karen Reed case up in Boston as as of this recording. Anyway, it’s going through his second trial right now. It’s about to start, and one of the references the defendant was saying was that she was doing what she was doing to try to out the corruption in the police department, because she’s very human, you humanitarian, and she’s altruistic, and she’s trying to out corruption in the police department, and that’s part of her defense. And the only thing I said was, if you can’t prove the positive, let’s look at the reverse angle. All right, if that’s what you say, show me all your data points and experiences before that, all these great public services and anti corruption things you’ve done, because this should not be a one off. In other words, if you’re saying this. Is who you’re about, then this will not be a one time event. This is gonna be a life arc of being altruistic, of being about anti this, and being about, you know, you know, societal influencer. So same thing here. So I’m just looking for patterns behavior. If you have a pattern of behavior and that you’re trying to wire a CEO to change, all you have to do is pinpoint when the behaviors they’ve had up until that point the results is generating, and if they want a different result, change your pattern behavior.
20:30
That’s what I would do. I
Maria Ross 20:31
love it. I love it. Okay, in the book in unbreakable alliances, you talk about the keys to communications, and you they’re not just pretty bullet points. You’ve got some really powerful you have four powerful nuggets here. Can you share with us what those keys are? And maybe just a quick synopsis of
Robin Dreeke 20:49
each one? Yeah, I get my little Jesus going here. I know he’s got it.
Maria Ross 20:52
He’s doing his happy dance, folks
Robin Dreeke 20:55
right now that i i was so desperately missing in my life. Um, so just a quick narrative preamble, I apologize, um, as the origin of this and why I needed these so desperately, and why a lot of people do so I’m what’s called, actually, I think I got this from you first generation professional, right?
Maria Ross 21:13
Yes, I got that from a guest of mine. Yeah, yep. I absolutely loved it when
Robin Dreeke 21:17
I read it in your book. I use it all the time, Maria, because I am a first generation professional, meaning, I am the first person in my family that has ever owned a home, first one that went in, that went to college, you know, first one for everything. So I had no mentors, guides or teachers in front of me, paving the way like I’m doing, and I love doing for my children. Part of that challenge was that I was very, very adept at problem solving for myself. I was very, very good at building my own alliances and trust and relationships. I need to solve those problems, which is a great skill set to have, but I was doing it for myself. In other words, I had life reps until around 23 to 24 years old. That was me, me, me, me, me, because I didn’t have I needed to feel safe, secure and prosperous that we all did, and I need to do it for myself. And so what happened was I started fumbling in leadership in the Marine Corps, and I was told you need to shift the focus from yourself to others. And I had no idea what that meant. I had no idea the language behind it. And so, you know, my my this is
Maria Ross 22:17
why we want our son to go to the Marine Corps. It’s not even about
Robin Dreeke 22:21
the military. It’s about it’s about learning about people. Yeah. And so what, the what the Marine Corps major couldn’t articulate all he said was, just, do it be better, right? How do you shift the focus from yourself to others? Because we all know this intuitively, right? Make it about everyone else. So here’s the four keys of communication that I was missing. Okay, so the first point is seeking the thoughts and opinions of others, instead of rambling on and on and on about what I think as a master of telling you what I thought, especially being an extrovert from New York, oh my god, forget I hear you. I could not shut up like now.
Maria Ross 22:59
Second you’re allowed to do that on this podcast. That’s why you’re here. Yeah,
Robin Dreeke 23:02
I’m very aware of it at least. Second one is, is talking in terms of the challenges, priorities, pain points, and even the friction that other people are dealing with. Instead of focusing on what I was complaining about, what’s going on in my life, who cares? I was focused on that. The third one, and this is the golden key for everything, if you remember nothing, and you can take one atomic nugget and make it part of your life. This is it, non judgmental, active curiosity and validation. And I’m going to dive a little bit deeper on this one, please. I call it active curiosity and and
Maria Ross 23:39
this is where our work intersects all the time.
Robin Dreeke 23:41
And actually, know where I got this from was actually Neil deGrasse Tyson. I interviewed him for my show about a year or two ago, and I remember I had asked him a question, and he rephrased the question and then answered it. And I was like, That’s interesting, because he didn’t like the way I asked the question, right? And so that was really interesting. And so what I thought, what I really came to realize through him and then other writings I had read, was that it’s not just enough to be curious about what it is I want to know. Let go of your agenda entirely, which allows you to be present and be curious about what it is that they want to share. That’s what active curiosity is. Say that again, so active curiosity is is taking it to the next level. Don’t just be curious about what it is you want to know, but be curious about what it is they want to share. In order it is, in order to do that, we have to let go. And this is the greatest challenge. People always say, So Robin, how do I be present? Everyone says, just need to be present. This is easy. Let go of an agenda. Yeah, that’s it. Engage another human being excited to hear what comes out of their mouth. Yeah, you start off with a beautiful, open ended question of what, and I’ve done to you on my show, was that spark and inspiration that it inspired you to be who you are today, right? They’re going to take you on a journey, and then all you have to do. Is fill out nooks and crannies, be curious about what it is they’re saying without an agenda, except the only agenda I’ve ever had, I’m going to find your greatness. I’m going I have a I have I’m going to give myself a positive confirmation bias, and I’m going to find your greatness, because it’s in there. And I’m going to find it hopefully. I’m going to, I’m going to ask a question inspires you to think about yourself in a way that you never thought about, and you’re going to say, Oh, my God, I never thought about that before. Yeah, what a great moment that is. And how did that happen? Active curiosity. And finally,
Maria Ross 25:29
before you go to the fourth one, I just want to point out this whole thing that has been a common thread through all the work that I’ve been doing over the years, it’s that we need to ask better questions. That is the key to empathy, that’s the key to prioritization, that’s the key to that’s the key to inspiring people. We’re we’re focused so much on finding the quick answers we need to be asking better questions. So I love that this. This fits right in with one of your keys to communications
Robin Dreeke 25:57
here. So here’s the greatest challenge. You know, what a better question is? A question that you don’t want to learn, a question it is they want to share. Because if I’m focusing on what it is I want to ask, I’m not hearing what it is they’re saying. Now, if we do all the great pre work and hard work we need to do and research and due diligence ahead of time, you don’t have to think about it actively. It’s all it’s all in the back of your brain. Because now what’s happened is, when you don’t have the questions that you’re thinking of in your brain, because remember, when you’re thinking you can’t do two things at once again, are, are? I know you love Tasha Europe as well, because I’ve read it in your books too. You cite her, and she’s got a new one coming out. But in Insight, you know, and also Simon Sinek says the same thing, we cannot, no matter what any other generation says, We can’t multitask. It’s impossible for us one thing at a time. And if you’re thinking about what it is you want to say or what it is you want to ask, you’re not focusing on what it is they are actually saying what it is they actually want to share. And that’s what being present is. That’s what active curiosity is. And so that’s what a great question is. A great question is following up with something that they shared. Now, granted, you have it in the back of your mind where you’re hoping to go together, the question you ask is going to be threading what they said to the destination that you both want to get to. That’s what a great question is. I love it, okay. And the fourth key simple, empower people with choice. In other words, use the word if, more than anything else, if, like, when the FBI I was recruiting competent human sources or spies or whatever a the way I would empower people with choice, I’d give them my little song, my little dance. I’d offer an opportunity to do something patriotic, if that, if that’s something you’re comfortable with, if not, let me know what it is, and I’ll do my best to accommodate you. That’s it. Offer a choice.
Maria Ross 27:44
How can leaders do that when there is no choice? This is the question I’m getting a lot of I’m trying to be as empathetic as possible, but the new policy is the policy, and I can’t change that. So how do I have a conversation where I want to listen and I want to hear what they’re saying, and I want to build that trust and build that rapport, but at the end of the day, we can’t actually give them the choice of what they want. How would you answer that question?
Robin Dreeke 28:14
I do the same thing. I’d say. So here’s what we got to do, and here’s a new policy that’s coming down the line, if that’s something you’re comfortable with, and please raise your hand. Let me please raise your hand let me know who’s not comfortable with this, and we’re going to work it
Maria Ross 28:26
through, because this is what we need to do. Love it. Love it. Because, yeah,
Robin Dreeke 28:30
people don’t expect all the time that you’re going to do what they say. They just want to feel like they’re hurt. And
Maria Ross 28:36
100% this empathy is not about caving in. It’s about helping people, support people through and listening to them and okay, I get that this is hard for you. How can we it’s going to happen anyway. So how can I best support you through this?
Robin Dreeke 28:51
I just love asking if that’s something you’re comfortable with, because then you’re saying that, hey, I understand and recognize and validate that you might be uncut, that someone might be uncomfortable with this. Let me know what is making you uncomfortable, and we’ll work through that until you are comfortable, and then we’re doing it. In other words, I am here to problem solve to Yes. That’s exactly what we’re doing. My number one thing is life. How do we move towards Yes? I did this on the phone with people I’m dealing with, with warranty people. I was literally doing this all the time. I’m battling on a warranty on my I have a motor home. I’m bat battling a warranty company right now in my motor home. And all I when the first time I got on the phone with warranty people said, All right, let me know how we can move towards Yes. I We i just need to know what you need to do to feel safe and comfortable saying yes, what we need to have done.
Maria Ross 29:36
How do we move towards Yes? Love it.
Robin Dreeke 29:39
Yeah. Begin. How do you say no to that?
Maria Ross 29:41
Right? And also, I just want to have a former FBI agent negotiating everything in my life on my behalf. I think that’s awesome. The last question I want to share, because, I mean, there’s so much in the book, and I really want folks to take some time to listen to it or read it, because what I love about the book is. For each key, you give actionable ideas for people, or you give actions they can take to improve that area of communication. But I want to kind of wrap up with this idea of context, because we were talking even in the pre call, the importance of the importance of understanding someone’s context. And that’s, you know, really my definition of empathy is that it’s a fact finding mission to understand someone’s context so that you can figure out the next right step to take together. Because if I make all these assumptions about why you feel the way you feel, or why you believe what you believe, that’s not accurate. I need to hear it from you. I need to understand how you got there, even if I don’t agree with you. So talk to me a little bit about context and the role that you think it plays in building unbreakable alliances.
Robin Dreeke 30:47
I got my goosebumps as soon as you mentioned it. Context is key, and it’s my word for empathy that I use is my word for inclusion, diversity. Whatever anyone wants to say, I don’t care what it is. It’s literally what Brene Brown talks about in her books, and that is, it’s not just enough to walk in someone else’s shoes. You have to take yours off first. And this is deep con. And how did I learn this? And so let’s bring it back to the spy world. Yeah, every time I had to or had an operation where I was going to pitch and try to recruit a Russian military intelligence officer, which is my main job in New York, my supervisor, I’d come up with my plan and come up with my operation of what it is I wanted to say, and all the stuff and the logistics and all that. And I bring it into him for approval to move forward, to move it up to headquarter State Department, all the things I had to do. And the first thing you say was to me, it was like, All right, say it. I go, what you go, say, actually, say exactly what it is you think you’re going to say, go now. And it’s like, and he goes, and then he’d follow up with so why should I want to be recruited by you? I said, Because. I said, No, no, no, why should i i am Sergey Ivanov, why would I want to be recruited by you? What’s going on in my life, with my family, with my retirement or lack of retirement, my pay, the challenges, priorities and pain points in my life that I should even want to have a conversation to listen to you, and then he’d say to me, if you can’t answer that question, don’t even speak to me. Yet he forced me to have deep, active empathy and context. Every time a behavioral team would go in and offer suggestions of points consider, as we call them, for a recruitment operation, every single time we told the case agent before you open up your mouth and give what you think is going to be this masterful one liner, you must know your individual and I don’t call the word subject or target of an investigation, because that dehumanizes a human being. You’re about to have a conversation with a beautiful human being that you’re hoping to solid challenge or part of your pain point in their life and offer them resources for it, in reciprocity, that they will help protect the national security United States and our NATO allies. I literally that is what I did. Allies. I literally that is what I did. I said you need to do a deep dive of what their day to day life is. What time do they get up, what time do they go to work, what kind of things they do at work, what what their day to day life is with their family, the challenges they have, how many soccer practices are going to I want you to do such a deep dive. And then after you do enough of a deep dive, I want you to actually live that schedule to the best of your ability for two weeks, and then I want you to take that line that you think is so massive, give it to one of your squad members and walk up to you on the street, just like you plan on do them and have them deliver that line to you and see how it feels. Wow. And if it feels too creepy, don’t open your mouth. That is how I learned context.
Maria Ross 33:21
Wow. Mic drop. I mean, this is the thing that gets me over and over again. First of all, thank you for sharing that story. Secondly, this I I’m just going to call it a complaint that, well, this all takes too long. I’ve got work to do, to which my response is the most important use of your time is inspiring and motivating and leading your people. So if you don’t have time to get to know them and what’s going on for them and what motivates them and what speaks to them and what inspires them, you need to look at where you’re spending your time. And I think a lot of leaders you know, who are just basically, they’re not leaders. They’re glorified managers. They come into these roles with knowing how to do the work, and then they step into a leadership position and still hide behind the work and don’t actually dig into getting to know their people, getting to understand how to optimize, if we’re being really cold, right? Optimize their most precious assets, which are their people. That’s actually the difference between leadership and management, is that a manager manages tasks, a leader leads people, and so to those leaders. And I just want to also acknowledge I know it’s hard. I know that. You know, that’s why I wrote the second book. That’s why I wrote the empathy. Dilemma is they’re caught between managing the needs of the organization and the needs of their people, while also trying to protect their own boundaries and mental health. So I’m not saying it’s easy, but the challenge I have is, if you don’t think you have time to engage, you know, maybe not to that degree, but I mean, you know, really engage in having a conversation. What’s going on? For you, how’s your family? How what did you do on your last vacation? You know, having those conversations where you’re actually getting to know someone as a person, so that you can better lead them, you can better inspire them. I really feel like that’s not necessarily a skill gap. I mean, it could be, but it’s also a prioritization issue. Where are you actually spending your time that you don’t have time to do that,
35:23
right?
Robin Dreeke 35:24
So here’s an interesting, fun stat for you. So I was in the FBI for 22 plus years before I retired, there was not one instance in 22 plus years of me working counterintelligence that taking a shortcut and not doing that ever worked. Not once taken, yeah, we call them, you know, cold pitches, you know, where you didn’t take time to understand individually, you didn’t understand the context, and just walk up to them on the street and try to make a cold pitch, like a cold sale, like a cold call, like a cold call, never worked once in my experience, in 22 plus years. Well,
Maria Ross 35:56
and that’s, you know, what’s so funny, so much of what you’re talking about is what I have learned and taught around marketing and branding and effectively connecting and engaging with a customer, and that is when you don’t take that time to understand what’s important to them. When you don’t have take that time to ensure your message speaks to what’s in it for them and what they care about, it will always fail. No one cares about your widgets and your functions and your features unless you help someone understand how it benefits them. And so to your point, those interactions were the cold pitch that didn’t work. And
Robin Dreeke 36:27
here’s the beauty, where we can put it all together with these other things about transparency and vulnerability and open, honest communication. So say that you are in a high pressure situation, you have promulgation on high that you got to make this cold pitch, and you got to do all things and blow all the things we just said, you can’t, you don’t have time for context. You don’t have time do all this, and you got the high pressure, then you can counter that by doing this. I’ve done this all the time too. When I walk into a business as a counterintelligence agent in the FBI and try to inspire some company and a president to share all the information with me to help protect the national security of their company, you know, I said, whatever it is, and said, Listen, I have no idea why you’d want to have a conversation with me. I did the best I could, to do I could to learn your company ahead of time, to learn what your goals, priorities and objectives are. I think I made a little bit of a guess here, but I’m probably off on that. I would love it if you had time to let me know what some of those things are. Here’s the resources I have that I’d love to offer you, if that’s in line with what’s good and important to you. But if not, let me know, and I’ll completely leave you alone. I made a cold call. You know how many times I was told Get away from me, to never talk to me again? Zero. And that’s not me. And I didn’t know the context. So here’s the context. I did know who’s this guy coming in to talk to me? Out of the blue, right? The only and the only counter I could do to it was being open, honest communication, transparency and vulnerability. And I empowered them with choice about saying, if you want me to leave you alone, I’ll completely
Maria Ross 37:40
do it right. And copying to the fact that I bet you’re wondering what I’m doing
Robin Dreeke 37:46
here, it always works. Because I’m being again, you’re being real, genuine, organic present, making it all about
37:53
them. Yeah,
Maria Ross 37:54
I love it. Well, I want everyone to pick up the book, unbreakable alliances. Pick it up. Listen to it all the things a spy recruiter’s authoritative guide to cultivating powerful and lasting connections. I you know, and really just beyond the leadership realm, beyond the business realm, I think we need this advice more than ever in our world right now, because our world feels so fractured and so polarized. And if we can start to forge these alliances, my big word for this year is community and collaboration, and I’m really leaning into that, because no one’s going to survive this alone. So we need these unbreakable alliances right now, and how we create them is exactly what you spell out in your book. And I feel like this book could be applied to work, to leadership, but also to life as well. So really appreciate your time today, Robin, always good to talk to you, and we’ll have all your links in the show notes, as you know. But for folks on the go, someone’s exercising right now, where can they learn more about you and your work?
Robin Dreeke 38:54
Really, really simple. Robindreich.com, R, O, B, I, N, D, R, E, K, e.com, I have tons of videos. Got my podcast on there as well, on on YouTube that Maria’s on twice, and so everything’s right on there. Reach out. I’m here as a resource for you and your life.
Maria Ross 39:10
I love it. And if you get the opportunity, bring Robin in to speak to your teams. He’s great speaker. Thank you so much, Robin. Great to talk to you, and a pleasure, as always, Maria. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do, rate, review and share with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slicemaria and. Never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place. You.
