In 2021, Gallup found that unprecedented numbers of young people identify as LGBTQ+. Why should you as a leader or hiring manager care? Basically, Gen Z is the queerest, most gender-diverse generation – and they are under attack on a daily basis which distracts them mentally and emotionally from innovating, delivering, and contributing their vast talents to the team. If you want to fuel your company’s growth, compete, and win, you need to empathize with and understand transgender rights and inclusion.
Today, Leo Caldwell and I talk about how Gen Z views gender identity and corporate culture, the growing mental health epidemic among trans folks, how the current climate of anti-trans hate and legislation could be impacting many of your workers on a daily basis, what your company can do to support trans employees and practical steps you can take to foster inclusion to attract and retain top talent. Leo also shares his own personal experience and busts some myths about transgender life.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- The standards of care for trans and other LGBTQ+ youth and adults has evolved a lot in the last 20 years, but there is still work to be done in society.
- Gen Z is the generation that is going to change the workplace and expectations in the workplace. They expect allyship and flexibility and that your workplace will actually stand up and be vocal on issues.
- There are not necessarily more queer and trans people than there used to be – it only appears so because it is no longer illegal and the fear that stopped many previous generations is not still there for many people. It is also hard to identify if you don’t have the language around that identity.
- You need to have people who are part of the community help solve the problem. You cannot understand the issues minority communities are facing without bringing them in to be part of the solution.
“Gen Z is going to change the workplace and expectations in the workplace…we’re at a spot of gender transformation.You’re either going to be a proactive leader, or you’re going to be reactive if you haven’t done something in the next 2 or 3 years.” — Leo Caldwell
Episode References:
- The Research Institute on Gender Therapeutics
- Their LinkedIn page
- Harvard Business Review article,”Companies are Failing Transgender Employees“”
- 2022 Gallup poll
- Erin Reed, Erin in the Morning blog
- National Center for Transgender Equality
- Current anti-trans legislation tracker
- Human Rights Campaign (HRC)
- Paula Stone Williams, TedX
- Empathy Edge Podcast – Cori Lovejoy: A Trans Woman’s Journey Transforming Self and Organizational Culture
About Leo Caldwell: LGBTQ+ Educator and Speaker
Leo Caldwell is an LGBTQ+ educator and speaker with a focus on the trans community. He has presented to a variety of audiences including Gannett USA TODAY Network, University of Oregon, local fire/police departments, and various non-profits/youth organizations. He is currently a lecturer at Ball State University and Comms Consultant for The Research Institute for Gender Therapeutics. Leo has a bachelor’s in journalism and a master’s in digital storytelling. He combines his storytelling, virtual training expertise and years of lived experience as a trans man to inspire empathy and inclusivity for all genders within organizations.
Connect with Leo Caldwell:
Website: https://leocaldwell.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leocaldwell
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Connect with Maria:
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work, to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Some facts leaders and companies need to know. In 2021, Gallup found that unprecedented numbers of young people identify as LGBTQ plus, in 2022. They found that the percentage of US adults who self identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or something other than heterosexual, has increased to a new high of 7.1%, which is double the percentage from 2012 When Gallup first measured it, and it’s only expected to go up. They also found one in five Gen Z adults identify as LGBTQ. More facts as of this recording in June 2023. Anti trans bills continue to be introduced across the United States. 556 bills and 49 states were 89 have passed 369 are active and 104 have failed. Why should you as a leader or hiring manager care? Basically, Gen Z is the clearest, most gender diverse generation and they’re under attack on a daily basis, which distracts them mentally and emotionally from innovating, delivering and contributing their vast talents to the team. If you want to fuel your company’s growth, compete and win, and I’m sure you do, you need to empathize with and understand transgender rights and inclusion. My guest today Leo Caldwell is an LGBTQ plus educator and speaker with a focus on the trans community. A former journalist, he has presented to companies, universities, local police and fire departments, and various nonprofits and youth organizations. And he’s currently a lecturer at Ball State University. He also is the comms consultant for the Research Institute for Gender therapeutics, and combines his storytelling, virtual training, expertise and years of lived experience as a trans man to inspire empathy and inclusivity for all genders within organizations. Today, we talk about how Gen Z views gender identity and corporate culture, the growing mental health epidemic among trans folks how the current climate of anti trans hate and legislation could be impacting many of your workers on a daily basis, what your company can do to support trans employees, and practical steps you can take to foster inclusion to attract and retain top talent. Leo also shares his own personal experience, and we bust some myths about transgender life. This is such an important episode. Please take a listen.
04:18
Welcome Leo Caldwell to the empathy edge podcast. This has been a while in the making. And I’m so excited to finally talk with you after fan girling you on LinkedIn for the longest time. So welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here. I am so interested in your work and more importantly, interested in your life. So tell us a little bit about your story. And you know, from your story, it’ll be pretty clear how you’ve gotten to the work that you’re doing now. But tell us about what it is that you are doing now and give us a little bit of background into who you are.
04:57
ria
Leo Caldwell 05:00
Very Evangelical, very conservative. And I was really all in Pentecostal, I loved it. I loved the religion until we started talking about queerness. And I realized, oh, no, I like women. And at the time, you know, I was a woman, I was assigned female at birth, and then transitioned in my early 20s. But at the time, I didn’t even know what it meant to be trans. So I just knew, Okay, I’m queer. This religion does not align with my values, my belief system as a human. How do I navigate that, and I always say that losing that religion was my first heartbreak, because I was so in it, and so passionate about it up until the point where, yeah, the messaging around being queer was just basically you’re gonna burn in hell, and there wasn’t much you could do about it. And so from that point, I was just looking for a home and a family, because my family is extremely, extremely religious. So in my early 20s, I started going to the gay bar. This is, you know, the early aughts. So 2003 ish, not a lot of information in the media about what it means to be trans really didn’t understand the concept of a trans man. So again, just kind of saw myself as this like butch lesbian. So it wasn’t really sure even what was possible. And that’s something as I do trainings and conversations with people, they keep talking about all these new identities. And I’m like, No, it’s not new identities, people exist, they just don’t know what’s possible. And we’re like, creating language for possibility. And I live that experience of just not knowing what was possible. So yeah, I started meeting trans people in the queer club, and I was like, Okay, this is a thing. And this is actually probably more what aligns with who I am and how I feel. But there were still a lot of obstacles in 2003, to get in care to finding out what even means, what does it look like? I actually, you know, would order books, I think Amazon was around then. But I would order books on the internet, you know, and, and read things. Jameson Greene is one of the first books I read. And now we’re connected on LinkedIn. And I’d also had like that fan girl is what I still call myself moment. But I just consumed as much as I could to find out about what it means to be trans. And then I was in college. And so I had access to care through the campus. But it took me a while actually, through this process dropped out of school, because I was coming out to my parents, and they weren’t accepting and just like going through all this, like really emotional stuff. And so college was not a priority. It was like, let’s get through this, let’s become who I want to become. And from that I worked two jobs worked at PetSmart in blockbuster, which when I say blockbuster, people are like, how old are you? You know, and so I worked those two jobs, and was like, Man, I can’t I can’t do this, I gotta go back to school at some point. So I went back to school. And that’s when I accessed care. The first time around, I did it the second time since 2007. And I actually was the first person on campus, actually, Ball State to access hormone treatments and their clinic. And the director of the clinic was like, hey, you know, you’re going to kind of be an experiment, but I have been going to sessions, and I do have an understanding. Yeah. And so it was very, it was scary. But it was really exciting. And I felt supported. At the time though, I actually just wanted to have top surgery, which is double mastectomy, but I wasn’t able to access that without taking the hormones. So the standards of care have changed quite a bit. And people are more empowered in their own journey. So anyways, get all this care get this kind of support at school, I ended up going into journalism. So I worked in a newsroom, I got my first job when I was still a junior in college. So my last part of my junior year in my senior year is working full time at the local newspaper. Still not out in the workplace, didn’t feel comfortable to be out. Again, this is 2007 to 2009. Ish. I had heard a lot of transphobic jokes in the newsroom. So clearly wasn’t a place that I was going to do this. So I have a question. So you were already going through gender affirming health care. But at work, you were still presenting as a woman? Yeah. So how did that impact you of sort of having to lead those two lives? It was very strange, but also kind of used to it with my family, right? My family kind of had this expectation of me living two lives. And overtime, as I’ve come out to more and more people, one of the things that have really changed is like I’ve had to either hide or lie a lot. And now like even I’m not even into like white lies, right? You know, like, if someone asked me, does this dress look good? I’ll be like, no, because I’ve spent so much of my early life happens to lie about things that lie in feels really awful. And so in the workplace. What was interesting is I was already struggling because I was in the Midwest and I was a butch lesbian, and I felt that there wasn’t a lot of camaraderie. I felt like people didn’t know how to interact with me because I didn’t fit into gender boxes are ready. And so I was already cautious and kind of like, I don’t know that these are my people. But what was interesting is I actually worked in for Gwinnett. And so they own several newspapers. And I transitioned, you know, I was physically, literally changing and, and people really weren’t sure what was going on, and I wasn’t coming out. But my boss at the time got moved to a paper in New Jersey. And he was like, hey, we want to hire you to come out here and be an editor, which was a big step up for me. But I was like, Look, I come out there, I just gotta tell you something like, I go by Leo, I want to use male pronouns. And I don’t want anyone to know about who I was before. And he was very supportive. And it was just interesting, because within two weeks, I went from being a woman in the workplace to a man in the workplace. And now incredible, like, in a really incredible in the sense of like, yes, every experience woman says she’s had in the workplace, I validate and I experienced, and when you’re a man, it’s a whole different situation, I felt seen, I felt heard, I got promoted. Within a year, once I was there, it was just before I would sit like a table where we’d make decisions. And I would say something and kind of felt like people might with my word didn’t have wait, you know. And then as a male presenting person in those spaces, it’s like, I would say something, and it was the gospel. So it was just a really big transformation of, and then I lived in the workplace stealth for two years, so no one knew I was trans at that point. And I wasn’t out professionally, and I wasn’t out, personally out on the east coast. So I did this little stealth thing for a while. But it really felt really not authentic to me, and sort of like what I was saying, with my parents, like I was lying still, which some trans people, that’s how they live their life, and they’re happy to do that they are happy to not be, you know, out, and that’s fine. But for me, it just, I really wanted people to know. And I ended up leaving news because journalism and newspapers were struggling, and there were just lots of layoffs. And I was like, Yeah, I don’t, I didn’t want to be in New Jersey anymore. And so I ended up in the instructional design, elearning and corporate training world. And that’s when I really started getting inspired to do something about the workplace and trans inclusive, right. So that being in corporate America, and kind of seeing how it functions, it was like, oh, I need to say something. Well, and so many things about your story. One, the concept of you being able to be male and female in the workplace, genuinely and understand the difference in how you were treated, is so
Maria Ross 12:24
validating as a woman right. And I, I’ve heard a TEDx speaker, I think her name is Paula stone, I’m not 100% Sure, I will fact check that and I will put the correct link in the show notes. But she was a corporate executive for a Christian leaning organization, like a large organization, as a man, and then transitioned and became a woman, not became a woman, she was a woman, I think, the whole time but and talked in her TEDx talk about all the differences that she experienced being at work as a man and as a and then when she became a woman. And she’s like, I felt like all of a sudden, people thought I was dumb. Because I was a woman, right? When I was a man, I knew just as much when I was presenting as a man. But somehow that was invalidated. So that is super interesting that you have that perspective, and what a muscle of empathy that you now have being on both sides of that fence. Like that is amazing. And number two, the fact that you came now to work where you are educating and advocating for the trans community. I think many cisgendered people have this image that every chat transgendered person wants to do that with their profession. And they don’t necessarily they want to be doctors, lawyers, photographers, journalists as well. So was that. Can you talk a little bit more about that decision to make that your work now, versus the work that you had loved before? Yeah, so I loved being a journalist to your point and loved it. I loved being in the newsroom. I felt like though, I had to leave that anyways. And so the space I started working in wasn’t one of passion. And I was already kind of feeling like, Man, I’m not doing something I love. And then there was a trans youth over and Ohio Lila acorn, she threw herself in front of a semi This is 2014 end of the year. And she she passed away. And she left a No, I think it was on Tumblr, it was a little over blogs. And it basically basically it was like I’m doing this thing because the world isn’t ready for us, please fix society. And when I saw that, I was like, yeah, like this, I need to speak up. You know, I was thinking I was like, 3231, I’m an adult. Like, I have privilege. I have an income. I’m white. Like I need to start saying stuff and educating people. And so I reached out to my former editor and I was like, Hey, can I start writing a column for the paper because my thought was the audience for a newspaper is older, primarily white, primarily.
Leo Caldwell 15:00
You know, wealthier, like higher middle class. And I was like this is an audience that needs to know this is happening and needs to know about trans people. And so I started writing a blog, or I’m sorry, a column. And it was it got a really great reception actually. And I got a lot of older like 7060 year old readers reaching out and saying, Hey, I’ve never I never knew a trans person, thank you for for your column. And it was really me talking about like, Oh, here’s some of my experience. But here’s what it’s like to be trans. Here’s what it’s like, this is what gender is doing to all of us. Because to your point, like getting the empathy and understanding of what gender does, both to women and men. Now, it’s really eye opening the gender binary can really screw us all up. And so kind of preaching that Gospel of like, hey, this isn’t just about trans people like we are in a system that’s really limiting to both both genders, both binary genders that exist that we talk about. Absolutely. Now, you have talked about the fact that Gen Z is the clearest, most gender diverse generation. Can you talk a little bit about that and what that means for the workplace? Yeah, so I actually teach in higher ed. So I get to interact with a lot of Gen Z years. And in fact, in 2021, Gallup put out a poll that said that one in six Gen Z is indicate being queer or transgender. And as another survey, over half of Gen Z, respondents believe that there there are more than two genders. So if you’re interested, Pew has a lot of data on Gen Z. And so it’s a great resource. But what I’m finding and what I’m seeing amongst my students, what I’m hearing when I talk to organizations, is that there’s this expectation now that folks in the workplace understand that it’s not a binary gender system anymore. It’s not just men and women. And what I think a lot of people don’t understand, too is Gen Z are they’re in their late 20s. Now, so they’re in the workplace like this is a group of people that are like 14 to like, mid 20s, five slap when people talk about millennials, I’m like, you know, millennials are in their 40s. Now, like they’re leading their rise and up. Yeah, like everybody thinks Millennials are still than their 20s. You know, like, Gen Z is the generation that’s entering, they’re the new talent, they’re the people you’re recruiting, you know, and right, your space is not clearly set up in a way that it supports more than two genders. I think this generation, not everyone in the generation, but a big portion has an expectation that it will be so I think, how it changes the landscape, I think one Gen Z is changing in the workplace at a lot of ways, and to have different expectations, how it relates to gender, I think that there’s an expectation that facilities like bathrooms or group settings are less gendered. Right, and so that there’s more gender neutral options. I think that there, there’s an expectation that if you want to transition on the workplace, like what, what are the policies and procedures in place, because that’s the other thing when I was in the workplace, there, I didn’t know what you did to transition. And, you know, I didn’t know how to like do that, like, and so like, they want some sort of structure around that. I think that there’s also this desire to see allyship in the workplace to see that your workplace actually does stand up and is vocal on issues. You know, like, there’s a lot of anti trans legislation right now, to see that your workplace actually will speak up on that, and actually indicate, hey, you know, what we see this is happening. We know, this is also your mental health is affected by this, this is what we’re doing. And a lot of times I think what it is it’s flexibility around work schedule. I think it’s flexibility on time off. But yeah, I think they’re really I think Gen Z is going to do actually I’m really excited, I think gonna do incredible thing, oh, they’re gonna they’re gonna be phenomenal. And I hate putting the burden of like, can you help us fix this on them? You know, I’m a Gen Xer. And I know, you know, even when our generation was called upon, you guys are gonna fix everything, right? And then we didn’t. So you know, I hate putting that pressure on them, especially given all the mental health challenges that that generation is currently facing. But I just find this really interesting. Now, I would love your perspective, because those in the country and in the world who are anti trans, seem to have this belief that just because you’re exposed to gender fluidity, it means you’re automatically going to choose that. Right? That the it’s the exposure that makes you trans, right? Can you rant on that for a little bit? And for me, I mean, can you tell me the reality of like, you either feel that way, or you don’t, right? I mean, it’s just it’s not a question of, I didn’t feel that way before. But now I got exposed to this. And I’m like, I’m gonna try that. It’s not a fad. So can you speak to that a little bit about maybe even your frustration and that way of thinking? Yeah, yeah. And I think you know, when I do say to folks in trainings, Gen Z is the most gender diverse and queer generation. They’re kind of like, well, yeah, probably, you know, like, it’s a trend. It’s a phase or whatever. I’m like, No, the reason there’s a couple of reasons why that people are there, more queer people, more trans people, it used to be illegal. Like, I mean, straight up, that’s, you know, like, you look at 40s and the 50s, and the 60s, and like all the raids on gay bars, you couldn’t dress as the opposite sex, even if you wanted to. And so there wasn’t, there was an opportunity to even express yourself. And so this generation hasn’t grown up at a time really where I don’t even think they have that knowledge, like my generation, your generation, we did at least have that knowledge. So there was fear. So I think there were a lot of generations and folks that haven’t come out because of one legal reasons back before us, but then the fear of what could happen. And then the what I was saying earlier, the possibility, right, if you don’t know something’s possible, if you don’t know that something exists, you can’t be it. And so back to like, representation, right? In the media. I didn’t see a trans man on TV in the 90s. I didn’t know they existed and even know it was possible. I knew I did not feel like a woman. But I didn’t know what that meant. I didn’t know I didn’t even frame that. And I think that’s the problem is that a lot of people, my generation, and generations before me, we didn’t even have the language to use. I mean, for me, now even I look back, and I’m like, if I would have had the word non binary, would I have done that instead? You know, like, because I have the word genderless actually tattooed on my spine. And so like that word, the non non binary didn’t even exist when I write. And so again, it’s not, we’re not creating new identities, and we’re not creating people are not coming with nowhere, and like trying something and I will say this, maybe young people are trying, maybe they are experimenting, so why that’s great. Like, what’s the harm? And that when we’re young, we all do, you know, figuring out who we are our identity. And now we allow the possibility of, hey, figuring your identity could also include your gender, you know, right. Right. But I also think that the, you know, that the thinking of, because part of the fear that they cite, is if you get exposed to the right terminology, and the end the role models, you will become that. And it doesn’t mean that because if that’s not genuinely who you are, and who you identify as you won’t, but the reason like you said the reason there seem to be so many more transgender folks in the world queer folks, is because they probably were always there. They just could never shine their light. Yeah. They were never allowed to be who they were. And I mean, I know so many people that have tons of friends that are queer, and so many gyms years that have are surrounded by queer kids that are not queer. And I, I don’t think that yeah, trans being trans being queer. It’s not something that transfers to the person. Either you have a part of yourself that has already felt that way. Or maybe it’s a part you didn’t you It took some time to discover to so there are people that do come out later in life that it didn’t know for sure. But again, being around other folks that are like that, it doesn’t transfer to you, but it just reinforces something clicks, right? Yeah. Yeah, I remember. So I interviewed on the show Cory Lovejoy, and I’ll put a link to Corys episode in the shownotes. But she talked about the fact that for the longest time, living her life as a man got married, had kids didn’t come out until recently, but always felt like she was mentally ill. That was the feeling she always had that something wasn’t right about her. Right. And not everybody grows up that way. So I think that that’s an important thing of, we’re talking about people who now have an outlet and a language and a name and a community for what they were already feeling. Just because we didn’t acknowledge it before, or or society didn’t acknowledge it before. It doesn’t mean they weren’t already feeling that. And that’s that’s always what I take away is that we can’t say there are more people because we talk about things more. And there’s more books, and there’s more characters on TV and in movies. That’s not the cord. That’s not the causation of it. Right. So So let’s talk a little bit about, you know, what is going on in our country in our world. You and I were talking about the fact that there’s a site called Trans legislation.com that has an anti trans bills tracker, and I was stunned to see in black and white. Some of the numbers that over 550 bills. Anti trans bills have been introduced this year. In 49 states 83 have passed 104 have failed and 369 are active. We hear about this all the time in the news we hear about everything from receiving health care, to book banning to legal recognition how is that we’re not here to dissect the legislation, the legislation or the, or the the hearts and minds of the people that are trying to get these things passed. What I would love to know, and I think what listeners would love to know is for you, as a transgender man, how does that impact your life on a daily basis? And how does it impact you in the workplace? Yeah, yeah. So just logistically, right. One of the things I’ve been doing lately is what states have what passed, because I’m traveling, I’m traveling for work, I’m traveling to speak at different different seats. And I’m like, Okay, where’s my plane land for a layover. So just the logistics and that mental energy of, I need to know what’s going on in each state that I’m going to visit and be aware. And that’s another again, like, as far as if you think about this as an employee, right? The resource, the mental resource that I’m using an energy I’m using, to now figure this out, is taking away from other things I could be doing right. And so the emotional labor, the mental labor, around just keeping track of what’s happening with over 500 bills, it’s very difficult to keep track of what’s happening in our country, around my identity, and who I am and where I can move freely in the world. So I think just logistically, it’s become really time consuming. And then emotionally, you know, I’ve been tracking why I feel as important to me that affects me, I think all of it affects me emotionally, though. And so that’s why I’ve kind of stepped back. I mean, I do a lot of education around this. So I do have to be aware. But I do have to step back from it. Because I it’s really discouraging to see adults in positions of power spending so much of their time and energy on a very small portion of the American population that really have just been existing, not doing much, you know, we’re not really like doing anything, you know, beyond transforming who we are. And then we’re getting attacked, you know, and it’s like, why? Well, and I saw this great unfold. It was one of those bittersweet, but ironic and funny memes that was out there that said, you know, I don’t see drag queens going into schools and killing kids by beating them over the head with copies of To Kill a Mockingbird. So what fight are we fighting? Now? Like, we should be fighting against guns and violence, and all of these things? Not this, right. This is not where our biggest problems are? Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, literally, I don’t, I’m in the Midwest, it was the air was not very breathable, from the fires in Canada, like things are going on, like, look at the pictures from things that are happening. Like, that’s, it’s very discouraging. And I think that even if you are an advocate of trans people, you should be pissed off that our legislators are spending the time and energy to take away existing rights that trans people already have, for what you know, instead of using their energy and time towards things that could really help right to solve homelessness, or crime or drug addiction, or all of these other environmental issues, right, all of these other things. So I love what you said, because I don’t want to gloss over that. The fact that you if you want to just look at like dollars and cents and bottom line productivity, the mental energy that you have to expend as an employee, on your safety on these issues on understanding that that is taking away from innovating for the company that is taking away not that you don’t deliver great work, but the point is, do you really want a portion of your workforce, dealing with something that’s going to distract them from the work I hear a lot you know, in the whole debate of return to office and return to work that some leaders are an absurdly concerned with the fact that if you’re you are working from home and I can’t see you, you might be spending your time distracted by playing Minecraft or watching TV, they’re worried about that. But they’re not worried about you being distracted by the fact that your person might be in danger your life might be in danger if you go somewhere you might get attacked, there might be a law against your lifestyle in a place where your company send you on business like that, to me is just crazy. Ya know, as in you know, I used to work as a project manager too. I did a lot of I’ve done a lot of things and so in that mindset, you know, we had this 85% capacity billable, you know, a number so all the employees had a bill 85% of their time. So that’s what I’m thinking like, okay, as an employee that now has like, I couldn’t build 85 Because I would have to do too much research on Okay, now this client is in this place and so just the tie that you’re saying just logistically and the time spent at work, figure stuff out, but then add on the emotional part like it’s so big past in my state like if something like in Florida like now in Florida, I can’t go to the men’s right now. At restroom, I could be asked to leave the men’s restroom looking very masculine. And if I don’t leave, I can be arrested. If that happened in Indiana, if I saw that news, my work that I would be done for the day, you know, I would be done because I would be devastated. And I wouldn’t know. I’m like, Okay, how do I go to a restaurant and you know, go to the restroom. And so I would be the fear to, you know, takes away from your workday as well. Yeah. So it’s definitely something I think leaders should be worried about and talk about, and I think leaders should be proactive. What can we do and understand that the mental health of trans and gender nonconforming employees not doing it’s not great this year? I mean, right. Yeah. Right. What are you in your work as you go into companies and talk and do some trainings? What are some of the things you have seen companies doing to support the transgender community? Can you give us some examples? Yeah, I mean, one of the things I love is what I was saying earlier, they have very clear policies around transitioning. So if you’re at the workplace, this is what you would do if you want to transition. And that’s so important, because trans people have a really high rate of poverty and unemployment. And if there’s the National Center for change, transgender equality has a lot of great surveys around this. But basically, whenever you have to transition, that becomes that becomes a threat to your job, really, your identity is changing, your name is changing. So how do you transition? Like, if you have clients? How does that go? Through gracefully, you know, and so just having the company take that burden off of the employee is amazing to say, Okay, this is what we do. This is how we make it seamless. It’s really, really awesome. The other thing is just being really vocal about their support of their trans employees, I actually had an employer that when Trump put out the trans military ban, I think it was 2017 basically saying that trans people can’t serve in the military anymore. They said, I’m not in the military, but they sent me a card, because they knew that that news just sucks. So they sent me a letter, little card. And they would do that anytime something happened. And that just is that emotional connection that like, like, we’re talking about empathy, that empathetic connection that I was like, wow, that meant a lot to me. And I think that showing up in that way for employees is really awesome. And covering trans related health care, right, so making sure your insurance covers hormones cover surgeries, um, that’s a really, really big one, it takes a lot of burden off the employee. Well, and I love that those go beyond like, we put out a post on social media, you know, during pride month, that says, hey, we support the transgender community. These are the things I always talk about in terms of companies and leaders walking their talk, when it comes to empathy, when it comes to emotional intelligence when it comes to actual support. How are you operationalizing that, I want to just real quickly on your point about, like guidelines for transition or a process for transition. What can a leader do? who’s listening to this and says, I would love to do that in my workplace. And right now, we I, in my network? Don’t know anyone who’s trans and there’s not that I know of anyone in our company who’s trans. Who can they get input from on that? Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of great freelancers, consultants that do this work, I’ve done this work, because I haven’t implemented a transition policy. But I actually did a lot of work previously as a trainer and worked a lot of corporations around like HR policies or sales training. So like I had that previous experience in that lift trans experience. So you’re looking for somebody to come in and consult, right, especially if that’s trends, for sure. That’s number one, and has some sort of experience around creating policies and procedures within a company. And so I LinkedIn is awesome, you know, it’s a great place to find these folks. Like I said, I do the work. I know other consultants that do the work, and we’re out there. And it’s really important to get, like I said, you have to get trans people in the room to have these conversations. Because if you don’t, you’re not going to create policies, you’re not going to create advocacy work, that really means anything if you don’t have those voices in the room.
Maria Ross 34:13
I love that. And also, you know, like you said, you have to have that community that you are trying to support be part of the solution. It’s not about doing things, quote unquote, for people, it’s about doing things with people, and ensuring that again, there’s things we as potentially cisgender or even gay, or, you know, gay people that might not understand the transgender community, just because someone’s gay doesn’t mean they understand what it’s like to be transgender. Right. So I think keeping that in mind that with even with all these different identities, if we’re really trying to support this in the workplace, we want to make sure we’re making folks that are part of that population, part of the process or the policy that we build. Now, that’s great for policy building, but Where can they? What are some strategies they can employ to change mindsets? Because what if there is discomfort and fear in their in their workplace? Let’s say you’ve got a CEO who’s doing this from the top? Who is like, yes, I want to create a workplace, I want to be able to attract Gen Z talent, and I want to create a workplace that’s inclusive and supportive of the transgender community. What if they’re dealing with a lot of
Leo Caldwell 35:30
issues in their ranks in terms of you know, because you can hire people, and you can create policies, but how do you really make the transgender individuals feel included? Ya know, that, like, what are some strategies there? Yeah, I think that there’s a lot of opportunity. One, I think sometimes there’s, there’s like buckets of people, right? There’s folks that are just totally don’t know anything about the community, don’t have any feelings about the community, but just very uneducated, right? And then there’s people that are educated advocates. Awesome. And then there’s really just people that, I don’t know, they just, they don’t they’re not aligned with the truth, they are very anti trans. Right? And I think for whatever reason, right, right. Yeah. And those people to me become an HR issue more than anything and, and more of a like one on one coaching situation, and I don’t think you reach them through strategy or training, or I think that is, like having a racist person in the workplace, right? And how would you deal with that, and right now we’re at a spot of gender transformation, I think that you’re either going to be a proactive leader, or you’re going to be reactive, and you’re going to be reactive to like, in the next, if you haven’t done something in the next few, like two or three years, it’s now reactive. So to be proactive right now is to look at your people that are, you know, you have your group that’s uneducated, and I honestly would suggest some simple training, like I would treat this, like I would one of my previous clients in corporate training of, let’s just give everybody a baseline knowledge of what this even means. And some just basic, basic understanding. And then what it means in our organization, what does that look like? And how do we value this and incorporate it into values? And, you know, a lot of people just roll this under, obviously, their dei values. And it is it’s, you’re creating an inclusive workplace. And so just that messaging, but being really specific about it, and calling out trans people, and not just assuming, because you say gender identity, sexual orientation, you’re like checking that box, right? I think that’s really important in the value messaging that you’re sharing. Yeah, because I’ve worked with people I’ve worked with in a company that had all these inclusive values, but the reality is, they never really wanted to talk about queerness or LGBTQ plus. And so I brought that out. And I called it out in a dei meeting. And I was told that they didn’t want to make people uncomfortable. And so that made me very uncomfortable. Right, like, okay, then I don’t want to work here. Why? Because you’re saying I don’t exist. Yeah, yeah. And so I worked with them for a few months and tried to change that. But it just kept that there was a message back to me and I left. And when I left, I got hired by another place. They’re like, you’re a unicorn. And I’m like, Yeah, I know. I’m great. Like, I’m awesome. I know a lot of things. Like, you know, but they the other place just was unwilling to have those specific words come out of their mouth, which was very, very obvious, like a red flag to me that you won’t say LGBTQ plus, you won’t stay trans. But you’ll talk about being inclusive, that’s not inclusive to not say those words. No, absolutely not. Where are some good resources for? Let’s say, there’s individuals. And, you know, I count myself in this in this group of continuing to try to educate ourselves on the different terminology on different issues important to the trans community. Are there any websites or publications that you recommend people can go to educate themselves? Yeah. So one book that I love is by Judith Butler called breaking the bowl, and maybe bowls, but just she does a great job of just breaking gender down in general. So it’s not even just really specific about transits. But it does talk about that, just and it’s, I mean, it’s older, it’s like 1520 years older, but it’s really, really good. And then as far as the web, you know, there’s Aaron Reed is a trans journalist, and she’s doing really comprehensive coverage of what’s happening in our nation. And her blog is Erin in the morning. She has a spreadsheet called Li Li alerts. And I think it’s linked from her website, and it literally breaks every legislation down by state. So it’s amazing. As far as workplace stuff, I mean, honestly, Harvard Business Review has been doing a lot of stuff, HR sees all these really great see what’s going on, they just actually put out a message two days ago that they’ve declared a state of emergency for LGBTQ plus folks in America, and they produced a guidebook about what that means and how to navigate and if you are traveling, and so it’s really good. Yeah. What was that again? HRC Oh, yeah, human rights, human rights campaign, and they put out a guide Book and National Center for Transgender Equality. They do the big survey that they did a survey in 2015, the largest survey of trans people, they’re issuing their 2023, or their 2022 Survey, which is their updated survey here in 2023. And it’s got so much data about workplace. So it’s really good to see how we’re doing in the workplace. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And we’ll put those links in the show notes as well. So my last question is sort of a bigger one. But what do you wish most people knew about being transgender? What is sort of either the biggest myth or the biggest misconception? I think one thing that people in the workplace I will say, I think we’re kind of like superheroes. Like, because we actually won we’ve had we have a very unique perspective. And I don’t know a single trans person, is it extremely talented, emotionally intelligent, like we’ve had to do so much inner work, that it’s given us a really strong awareness of who we are, but also how we interact with other people. And I know it can’t speak for every trans person, but most trans people I’ve met, I think, that are just incredible people as far as their work ethic, but also just their emotional intelligence. And I think in general, we’re most of us are really boring. Like, we’re just like everybody else. Like, I just think that there’s this sensationalized Yes, version of who we are. I mean, we, I mean, all like most, most of my trans friends have kids, they have a mortgage. You know, they have a 401k they’re paying taxes do like getting yeah, we’re just doing we’re just living, we’ve just live in. Like, this is the thing I always get upset about when people are homophobic. They just assume gay people are having sex all the time. Like every moment of the day, right. That’s what they’re doing. And I’m like, no, they’re going to work. They’re cleaning the bathroom. They’re making dinner like they’re living their lives. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Getting into gardening, mowing, you know, like, I’m like, it’s very, it’s just not. I think that there, especially now with all this legislation. There is this messaging that we’re out one recruiting people, which Ross right, and we’re just and you’re just leading depraved lives? Yeah. All over the place. Yeah. Yeah. Not true. Not true. Okay. But I do like how you describe that of like, many of us are kind of boring. Yeah.
Maria Ross 42:27
Well, Leo, this has been so wonderful to connect with you. And you’ve shared so much great insight and resources, I will link to everything you’ve shared in the show notes. You’ll and you will have your contact information and your website in the show notes as well. But for folks listening on the go, where’s the best place they can find out more about you or get in touch with you? Yeah, I’m on LinkedIn. If you search Leo Caldwell, I think I come up pretty quickly. So find me there and connect. They’re awesome. And your posts are great on LinkedIn. So I second the following you on LinkedIn. Thank you again for your time, and I love that we’ve connected. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a colleague or a friend. Until next time, please remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources booked me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
