We’ve got work to do! Yes, we do. And it will likely not stop. So, WHY should you make time for joy, even in the toughest work environments? Why should you even do it when we have spreadsheets, deadlines, and goals to hit?
The better question is: How can you NOT find the time? It’s the 5th pillar of being both an empathetic AND effective leader. And it’s not a luxury. It’s a vital way to build team culture, engagement, and reduce stress and anxiety when you can.
But HOW do you do it?
Today, I get the joy of talking about joy with Lisa Even. Lisa shares her transformative leadership story and how she infused joy into her own life and at work to build a winning culture, and how she helps leaders do the same. Lisa shares many examples and stories, and we discuss informal power, trying on others’ glasses, and how to check in with your team and start infusing joy in small ways that make a big difference. Lisa shares the 3 ingredients necessary to create a joyful culture: desire, belief, and permission. We talk about how to encourage accountability and impact while creating joy, and Lisa shares a fantastic way to avoid “forced fun” with your most skeptical, cranky employees!
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Listen in for…
- How to sneak joy in before, during, and after everything you do.
- Small steps to inject joy into your life and work.
- The power of taking accountability for crappy to happy.
- Why you should be finding connection through other people’s joy.
“Make a list of the most unglamorous things, the things that just drive you bonkers. It’s your job to find a little happy after the crappy.” — Lisa Even
Keynote Speakers and Conference Trainers: Get your free Talkadot trial and enjoy this game-changer for your speaking business! www.share.talkadot.com/mariaross
About Lisa Event, Keynote Speaker
Lisa Even believes that you happen to the world, not the other way around. Life isn’t about checking boxes—it’s about showing up, creating connections, making an impact (Have Good Ripple Effect), and making joy your job. From serving farmers and truckers at a small café in high school to leading multi-million-dollar budgets—and juggling life—she’s passionate about helping people think beyond their backyards and build meaningful careers and lives.
Now, Lisa brings that same energy to organizations nationwide. The author of Joy Is My Job, host of the Have Good Ripple Effect podcast, and in-demand keynote speaker, she has spoken to hundreds of teams across a wide range of industries.
Stay tuned for her newest book, What’s Your Ripple Effect? And Why It Matters More Than Ever: A Leader’s Guide to Creating Lasting Impact and Influence.
Connect with Lisa:
Lisa Even International: lisaeven.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/lisa-even-have-good-ripple-effect-0778b112
Facebook: facebook.com/lisaeven11
Instagram: instagram.com/lisaeven_
Books: lisaeven.com/books
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books
Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Maria Ross 00:00
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. We’ve got work to do. Yes, we do, and it likely won’t stop. So why should you make time for joy, even in the toughest work environments? Why should you do it when we have spreadsheets and deadlines and goals to hit? The better question is, how can you not find the time? It is, after all, the fifth pillar of being both an empathetic and effective leader, according to my book The Empathy dilemma, and it’s not a luxury. It’s a vital way to build team culture engagement and reduce stress and anxiety when you can. But how do you do it? Today I get the joy of talking about joy with Lisa. Even Lisa is a keynote speaker and author who believes that you happen to the world, not the other way around. Life isn’t about checking boxes, it’s about showing up, creating connections, making an impact, what she calls having good ripple effect and making Joy your job, from serving farmers and truckers at a small cafe in high school to leading multi million dollar budgets and juggling life, she’s passionate about helping people think beyond their backyards and build meaningful careers and lives. Now, Lisa brings that same energy to organizations nationwide. She wrote joy is my job hosts the have good ripple effect podcast, and has spoken to hundreds of teams across a wide range of industries. Her newest book is coming out soon. What’s your ripple effect and why it matters more than ever, a leader’s guide to creating lasting impact and influence. Today, Lisa shares her Transformative Leadership story and how she infused joy into her own life and at work to build a winning culture, and now how she helps leaders do the same. Lisa shares many examples and stories that you will love, and we discuss informal power trying on others’ glasses, and how to check in with your team and start infusing joy in small ways that make a big difference. Lisa shares the three ingredients necessary to create a joyful culture, desire, belief and permission. We talk about how to encourage accountability and impact while creating joy. And Lisa shares a fantastic way to avoid forced fun with your most skeptical, Cranky employees, so many great insights today. Take a listen. Welcome Lisa, even to the empathy edge podcast. I am so excited to talk to you about joy today and why it’s relevant to a high performing culture. So welcome to the show. Thank you, and you are a podcaster as well. You have a podcast called What’s your ripple effect? Yes, yeah. Have good ripple effect. I know, and I love that, because I talk a lot about how we influence our spheres of influence without being a leader with a title. So before we dive into all the goodness on creating joy and a positive team culture and all the results that gives you as a leader, can you tell us a little bit about your story and how you even got into this work of your book, joy is my job? Like, how did you get
Lisa Even 04:02
here? Yeah, I It’s a fun I laugh. Isn’t it fun? Just to I just want to sit and have coffee with you all day and be like, here’s all the things. But the down and dirty of it is, I entered the workforce and was a project manager, so I love deadlines and milestones, and I had a senior leader tap me on the shoulder and say, you really get people to get things done like you are highly productive. And I didn’t have direct reports at that time. You know, I when we talk about informal power, I was kind of this 20 something being like to the C suite exec, like, hi, I need you to do this thing. And when that leader, that senior leader, said, I think you’re a people leader, and she said, I’d love to move you from project management to operations. I was like, Yeah, let’s do it. So I led large teams in healthcare, and it was the most rewarding thing, like, I just want to try on everyone’s glasses and see from their perspective. Of like, you know, my cranky employees, of like, I’m not doing it. I’m like, Okay, can I. Trying your glasses like before I get mad. I just want to see what you see. And so fast forward to today. I do a lot of keynote speaking around creating impact through your ripple effect. And then I always say as a side note, I was a little burnt out along that journey, and my husband and I decided to track our joy like a bank account, so we hung a whiteboard in our bedroom. I love this so much. Yeah, because I thought, well, if we wait for joy to find us, we’re going to wait forever. And if it’s not a metric in our life, right? So that was, that’s it. So that’s the down and dirty version.
Maria Ross 05:34
And how are you doing? How long have you been doing that tracking? And how’s it going?
Lisa Even 05:38
It’s going so well, we’ve done it for about eight years. For a while it was just us, and then we had some friends who we were, you know, we were just telling about the whiteboard, and they’re like, what the whiteboard in your bedroom? And I’m like, Yeah, we wanted to dream about joy before we fall asleep, because sometimes that’s the only time we see each other, and we wanted to dream about joy when we wake up. And so it moved from whiteboard to calendar to now tracking, and I also speak to audiences, additionally, the culture we talk about, how are you sneaking some joy in, before, during and after? Everything that you already do
Maria Ross 06:11
completely okay. So many questions about that. I’m going to take a minor detour. Do you both have a shared definition of joy?
Lisa Even 06:17
Though? Yes, and this is where I say, like, disclaimer, Lisa is not a scientist, and right, our definition of joy is things that light us up, things that make us feel more alive. And so we have, we both have a joy calendar. Our kids have them, and they look very different there. I actually have a joy challenge where I say, get in someone else’s joy. So once a month, I sit down and I watch a football game with my husband and I, because that’s his joy, because that’s his joy, and he tells me all about how many rushing yards for whatever, and it is the most fun thing to know that my only responsibility during that moment is to enjoy him, enjoying his joy, so I don’t feel any pressure, right? Yeah? Like, I don’t like this. I don’t I really, I still don’t like this, yeah? And it’s kind of like my brain saying, Yeah, you don’t have to, yeah, good, yeah. Oh my gosh. I love this
Maria Ross 07:06
so much. And I I’m laughing inside, because I’m like, if I go to my husband right now and be like, we need a joy calendar, he’d be like, Oh my God. Who have you been talking to? But, yeah, I mean, and we’re very different people. That’s why I was asking about that. And I love that idea. I mean, that’s empathy, right? Is you are coming into his space and his world and trying to understand what is important to him, and he’s doing the same for you and your kids. I just I love it so much. So what? So what actually inspired you then to focus on leadership and culture in your work, how did you translate that story and that journey into realizing, Hey, this is actually a catalyst for organizations.
Lisa Even 07:48
It you know, it’s funny that my I always say, like my have good ripple effect and my joy journey were happening almost simultaneously. So much like a lot of us, we inherit whatever we’re given, right, like the team or the teams or the locations, and they all have different history and dynamics and all of those parts and pieces. And I was looking kind of across the landscape, and realized that first off, we needed kind of that vision internally, like we had the organization vision, but we needed kind of that leader vision. And so the tagline really came about because I said to my team guys, it’s our job to have good ripple effect. Like, if we do not keep our waters clean, if we don’t like what, what is it going to look like? And everything you say and do is a ripple happier, crappier choice. And so I really started off in that direction, just probably more out of, like, needing to, because I had some pretty, like, toxic cultures that I inherited, and I was like, We need a phrase that allows us to self hold each other accountable. And so that’s really the first time I walked down the hallway and I heard someone say to someone else, is that really good ripple effect? Like, I was a proud like, oh my gosh, yeah. Just like, yes, they get it. They’re starting to identify what’s good and what’s not, and if it’s in there, we need to get it out. Like cultural dysfunction is a huge part of, you know, productive and empathetic and joyful team.
Maria Ross 09:10
Yeah, okay, I love this because, you know, as I mentioned, I talk a lot to teams that say, Well, what do we do about empathy in our culture? Because our CEO doesn’t buy into it, and you don’t have to wait. You can actually create a micro culture within your team that becomes that bright light within the organization to your point. It has the ripple effect of impacting other people in the organization. And they start wondering, like, and it’s funny, because I use this phrasing, what’s in the water over there? Yeah. Why is that team outperforming? Why is it they their retention rates are higher? Why is it people are actually smiling over there, like, what is it that they’re doing that we can replicate and scale and learn from in other teams? So you don’t have to wait for the corporate mandate to be you know, this is how you should operate. If you don’t like the culture, the larger culture you’re swimming in, you can create a micro culture as a leader. And I’ve worked for organizations where the organizational culture wasn’t great, but our team was this fantastic unit, and it was so fun to work with them. So I want to get into joy, because just to share a little story with you, and I’ve shared this with my listeners before, when I was working on the empathy dilemma, and I was kind of deconstructing the recipe of what makes an empathetic leader, both empathetic and high performing at the same time, like, what was the what was the secret sauce? Yeah, and I spoke to hundreds of leaders, I did lots of research, and I found these pillars that are true of all of these leaders that seem to be doing this effortlessly. And at first there were only four, and I was wondering why, what was missing? I was like, something’s missing in here. And I went back, and I realized it was joy. I realized it was this element of and not that you had to be the funniest leader in the room, but that there was an element of camaraderie and of levity even when the work is hard, right? And I saw this in very stressful environments, right? Healthcare, police, like it didn’t matter what environment the work was, it was how the team had each other’s back and had that camaraderie together, and it was joy, and it was making time for moments of joy. To your point, so tell me a little bit about and maybe give us some examples of what how do you start people on that journey? If they’re like, something’s missing, we’re not feeling really good about what we’re doing, what are some small steps that a leader or team can take to inject joy into their work.
Lisa Even 11:44
Yeah, and I will actually even go a little bit personal and professional, because I think they tie together. The first thing that I always scan when I’m looking at my teams is number one, do they have desire, permission and belief? And what I mean by that is, like I do some joy sessions with organizations. I had a woman raise her hand and say, I have enough joy. Thanks. It was, like the perfect moment. I literally would like let it hang in the air, and I’m like, You’re right. Like, if you have enough, you’re right. If you don’t have enough, you’re right. There really has to be a desire for it. And if you notice that your team isn’t there yet, that’s something to start working on of, how do we think about if we don’t have the desire, what’s getting in the way? And I talk about it in the book, where we’re looking at kind of and I’ll use the word this loosely, but just so listeners understand it’s like the excuses. Well, at least I can’t have joy. I have 1000 emails. Yes, I can’t have joy because I have a report due on Friday, and we really had to start, like, peeling the onion back to say, what if you could be two things at once? Yeah, like, does that? You have to want it a little and then you have to believe that we can have it right, and you have to have a little permission. And so we talked a lot about our team culture of, what if we can be busy and friendly, what if we can be busy and joyful, right, like that would be good ripple effect. And so it’s really a lot of those like I always, I do a lot of culture work around, like attitudes, behaviors and beliefs. So it’s a lot like that. What it’s our attitude, how we feeling? What behaviors do we see going on? The what are we keeping? What are we getting rid of? And do we believe it to be true? If you know, if a new team member says to or an older team member says to a newer one, oh, it never changes around here. You know, it’s like, Ah, that’s a belief, like, I take notice. And I think that ties together of joy, of really saying, like, what’s our attitude, what are the behaviors that we can infuse? And then, do we believe it? Do we really, truly believe it? And some teams are faster and slower at grasping the concept, and that’s okay, like, sometimes it’s just a little like, roll up the sleeves, little bit more work, totally.
Maria Ross 13:49
Well, you’re trying to shatter old belief systems and old paradigms of what work should be, right? And, you know, I’m always talking about both and leadership and in the context of empathy, you can be empathetic and high performing. You can be compassionate and competitive at the same time. And it’s only when we we think it’s an either or equation that we swing so far. The pendulum swings so far, right? You swing between being a dictator and being a pushover. But there’s a happy medium in there, so and I love what you’re saying here about deciding to infuse joy. Now, one of the things I know I’ve worked with, what? So two things here. One is, to your point about the excuses, it’s we don’t have time, right? We’re going we don’t have time for what seems to be a waste of time. So what do you say to leaders? I mean, they’re obviously not hiring you, but what do you say to those leaders who are like, we don’t have time to fool around. Yeah, that’s kind of how they say it. Yeah, they do, don’t they?
Lisa Even 14:47
Yeah. And I will say, if they say that, I’ll say, let me ask you this, how burnt out are you? Well, I’m so burnt out, you know, they go into their like, Mantra, and I let them, I listen and I like, have a little bit of poker face. Sudden, like, Yeah, I’m like, how stressed Are you? They were like, I am so stressed I did not sleep last night. And you’re like, Yeah, right. And you have them tell the story of so it sounds like you’re in not a really great spot. And then I say to them, like, how is that going? Yeah. And I let it hang a little bit in a really thoughtful and curious and, like, empathetic way of like, is that good? Yeah? Like, Well, no. And then I kind of, like, lead them softly into this conversation about,
Lisa Even 15:30
what if you could enjoy it.
Lisa Even 15:34
Like, yeah, Joy word. And then they’re like, Lisa, you know.
Lisa Even 15:38
And I’m not talking about the big, grandiose things, I just say, like, what if we could think about our day differently? And so one of the tactics that I would often use, again, I’m not a scientist, but I would say crappy to happy. So there are unglamorous things that we do in our day, Excel, spreadsheets, reports, phone calls you, although
Maria Ross 15:57
those, I always say, those do bring some people joy. They do. I don’t understand those people, but yeah,
Lisa Even 16:04
let’s I always say, like, make a list of the most unglamorous things, the things that just drive you bonkers. In the construction industry, it’s carrying drywall. In the hospitality industry, it’s like, cleaning up. Like, what are those things, right? Depending on the industry, and they can usually, like, rattle them up. And then I’m like, okay, so if we’ve got things that are really unglamorous, and we know that that we have to do that, like we don’t get to not do them, I say it’s your job to find a little happy after the crappy we’re going to take crappy guys and we’re going to make it happy. And so I will say to them, like, before, during or after, what can we do? And in my world, we I worked in a very large hospital, and I had people at my front desk, and I would walk up to them and I’d say, Hey, how’s it going today? Crappy to happy. What do we got? And they would say to me, before, nowadays, things are automated, right? You get patient phone calls, but back in the day, they were not. We would make hundreds of phone calls per day and leave voicemails of like, Hi so and so, see you on Thursday. And so I would say to them, crappy, the happy. And they would say to me, all right, we got three on a phone call. And I’m like, All right, that’s the crappy. What’s the happy? And it was a lot of them starting to think about, it’s my job, right, to add in a little something happy after. And so they’re like, I think after 300 we’re getting Starbucks. And I’m like, Yeah, or they’re like, we’re taking a lap around the building, but it was their it was their job to take it from I have to do these unglamorous things, but I also can infuse a bit of levity and fun, yes, day. And I would literally High Five them and say absolutely. And you can do that in your personal life too. Like I had a woman after a session, she goes, my mom is aging and is in the nursing home. I said, Yeah, and she goes, and it is awful to visit her, like I just, we just sit there and look at each other and don’t really know what to say. And she goes, crappy to happy. I said, All right, what is it? And she goes, I think I’m going to bring a game next time. Yeah, it just gets your brain thinking about how you take accountability for it and also give yourself permission to do it well.
Maria Ross 18:05
And you made a great point here. It’s also about the language we use and how we talk to ourselves. And I you know this, this has always been for me, I don’t have to work out. I get to work out right, right? And so you can apply it to so many other things, like, I don’t like to vacuum, but it’s really great that I have this awesome house I get to keep clean, right? That’s a little bit of a stretch, but you know what I’m saying? Yeah, absolutely. It’s using the language of just, we were just talking my husband and I were just talking to our son about this the other day in the car, and about how I was talking to him, about saying I flipped how I was talking and I said, I don’t have to do this thing. I get to do this thing. And how it it really just changes your outlook. And it sounds, it sounds really almost juvenile, but like trying to trick yourself. But it’s true, it’s how we talk to ourselves and how we approach the work. And so, you know, no matter what it is, you can try to find joy in it. And if that’s not enough, what’s a way that you can set the environment so that it’s more pleasing, right? Yes, can you Okay, you’ve got to start doing your taxes. Can you make, like, your favorite latte, right? And light a candle and put some great music on and, like, make it a more joyful experience for yourself. But we’re so primed to just be like, get it done. Get it done. Get it done. And that’s the grind, right? It is.
Lisa Even 19:34
And I always say, like, when you go to start thinking about joy and we’re going to put it on your calendar somewhere, I always say, start small, like I have a good friend. And this is a personal example, but I think it relates in the professional world as well. She will call me and she’ll say, What are you doing? And I’ll say, I’m, you know, doing all the life things, right, laundry and dishes and Kid things. And she’ll say, do you have 15 and I say, Yeah, I do. And literally, I she drive. Over to my house, I meet her in the driveway with a sparkling water, sometimes a drink, right? And we stand there for 15 minutes. She like, gets out of her car. We’re standing there in the driveway. 15 minutes, we chit chat, and then we’re like, All right, back to it. Bye, yeah. And it’s actually some of my most fun, the like, moments of the week, because we tell each other a story or something that happens, or it’s just a little bit of a boost. And I think about even in your workspace, when you’re working on a project, or you’ve got, you know, q2 you know, is almost over, I would say, like, save 15 minutes or something other than work, yeah. And though, you know, it’s hard at first, and it feels awkward, but I always say, like, keep going, because before you know it, you’re going to start to look forward to it, yeah? And then it becomes a part of your routine. And there’s so much research on habit development, yeah, that you then are like, Oh, I just do this.
Maria Ross 20:54
Well, I think also that’s what you know. There’s a whole nother conversation about return to work and hybrid work and remote work. And I have lots of opinions about both sides of that, but I think that is the thing for people that are proponents of going back in the office, sometimes they miss those moments. They miss those moments of like, this is too much. I’m going to get up and I’m going to go to the break room, or I’m going to go to the coffee bar or whatever. Do you want to come with me? Yeah, and we’re just going to step away from our desks for a little bit. You know, that’s the whole the whole water essence of the water cooler. I know exactly. It’s those serendipitous moments where you, you take a second to just forget the work and be human for a second casually, like, yeah, you’re casually in existence, for sure. And so let’s talk about what are some common challenges that leaders face in maintaining a healthy culture, and where can some of the things that you talk about and teach help alleviate
Lisa Even 21:49
that? Yeah, and I think about culture in almost like the ripple itself. So the center circle is really you. And we talk a lot about, like, how you doing, how you showing up. And we think about it from the angle of, you know, if I see someone walk down the hall, I
Lisa Even 22:07
prepare for them. I think, oh, not today.
Lisa Even 22:12
People prepare for you. And so as we think about our presence being the present, the gift that we give our team, I often will give teams an opportunity to think about, how are you showing up? I once had an employee turn to me and she, you know, just casually said, Oh, you show up busy. And I was like, horrified, yeah. I’m like, I am so fun and so energetic, right in my mind. I’m like, Yeah, I kind of did, like an awkward haha. And I walked back to my office, but I was like, I do not show up busy. But she was right. I did because I thought that showing up in a way that was like, we got all these things I got this done, was a gift, and what it was actually doing was the gift of busy. And so being able to really think about it from your angle first, and then I always say I do some values exercises, of like, what’s important to you and what’s important to your team, yeah. And then we start to look at like, how are you culturally? I actually have a like, three columns where I’m like, How are we feeling, attitude wise, what are some of the behaviors like, what is it normal to see? One of my favorite examples, I had a new employee start, and I said to her, I go, you’re new here. You have fresh eyes. Like, what’s something interesting or odd that you’ve seen around here, and I was alluding to, like, our culture and the behaviors that we do on a daily basis. She looked me up and down, kind of almost as if to say, like, do I trust you? Yeah. I waited her out. I held and then she goes, Do we take a lunch? I knew what she was talking about. Yeah. There was this really funny behavior in a pocket of our team, where they sat at their desk and they worked through lunch. And I said, Well, HR, would like me to tell you to take a lunch. Legally, yes. And I said, but what do you mean? And I again, I knew what she meant, but she goes, Well, I went to go take a lunch, and one of the other nurses in our office turned to me and says, Where are you going? And I told her, I’m going to take a lunch and I’m going to walk around the building. And she goes, and she goes, we work until the work is done. Oh, I said, what’d you do? She goes, Well, I sat back down and I worked at my desk, and she goes, but I think if they took a lunch, they’d be nicer humans. And I laughed at her, and I said, You are right. You bumped up into what I will call a like ecosystem norm. This is very normal for them. Yeah, don’t even notice it. It’s a behavior they’ve done forever. I said it’s really not official, like it’s not in our handbook. I said my advice to you is to the next time you want to take a lunch and walk around the building. I said it’s going to be hard. It’s going to be so hard, but I want you to say to her, I’m going to work until the work is done right after lunch, I’m gonna take a quick walk, and I’m gonna be even better, and I’m gonna work harder. And then a few weeks later, I saw her in the hall. I’m like, Are you taking a lunch? And she goes sometimes, and I smiled, well, even funnier, like a few months later, the nurse that had mentioned that had an injury where she was supposed to her physical therapist told her to walk. Oh. So she goes, she looked at her. She goes, I’m walking with you at lunch. Nice. And it was just a very like I always say, as a leader, have your finger on what norms are occurring, what behaviors, and start to have those conversations and teach people how to shift them, because it really does take a lot of forethought to be able to think. We’ve always done it that way, but do we like it, right? And you can believe attitudes turn into behaviors, which turn into beliefs, and then before you know it, it’s so ingrained that you’re like, yeah, it’s gonna be harder to change once, once it gets to a belief,
Maria Ross 25:32
right? So, so good. How do you balance that? This is always the perennial question I’m asking, is balancing empathy and all of these things with high performance and ambition. So how do you help leaders encourage accountability and impact while still making time for joy and not letting things go off the rails?
Lisa Even 25:54
Yeah, absolutely. So I always say, like, fair, firm and kind.
Lisa Even 25:58
And so when we think about I always, you know, tee up conversations of, you know, if maybe we’re trying to get something done, or, you know, a project, I’m often saying, like, we can be both things at one, yeah, and I want to make sure both things are on track. Like, your joy is on track, but the project is on track. And so I set it up really, kind of, like expectations of, like, talk to me about the project. Where are we at talk to me, and I’m firm, fair and kind of like, and I ask a lot of questions back, any risks that we need to think about? Are we, you know, like, really, kind of teeing that up? And then I’ll say, Okay, let’s talk about our joy. How are we doing from a scale of our attitudes, and how are we feeling? And if we need to take a small break, or we need to infuse some joy, let’s do it. And so I kind of like, bop back and forth, and my team gets used to this. Like, Lisa’s fairly like, she’s gonna drive us to get our metrics, but she’s also gonna drive us to make sure we’re okay along the way. And then if it’s like, tips into like, somebody not performing. Well, obviously that’s a performance conversation, but most of the time, if you are firm, fair and kind, and you have some really good language around well, what does that look like? Does that get us the desired result? Whether it’s on a technical or reaching a result, or on the joy front? I put it back on them to help paint that picture, and then I’m like, so it looks like we’re not right, right? You know, like, what does that look like? Where do we go from here? And if they can’t figure that out, then I’ll say, Can I make a recommendation? And then I want you to, you know, give me your thoughts back. And I always say, like, well, arm wrestle a little bit along the way,
Maria Ross 27:35
yeah, well, and I think it’s so important, you know, my the third pillar is clarity, because clarity is not just kind, it’s empathetic. And when you’re able to be clear and show that those performance metrics matter to you, you can then, then it’s easier to open up, it’s easier to build the camaraderie, because everybody has the same expectation. And the reason why, you know, for my work, I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this is the reason why Joy is that fifth pillar of being an empathetic leader. Is because when you create that joy, people get to know each other on a personal level, and so then they care about being empathetic with each other. They care about having each other’s backs. They care about checking in with each other, versus if they’re all in their own silos and they’re just coming in and doing their work and leaving robot? Yep, there’s no interaction that fosters the flow of empathy. What do you think about that theory?
Lisa Even 28:33
Yes, I think you’re 1,000% right. And I have a worksheet that I give out to my new employees, and it has a list of values, and I have, I say, like, pick your top three. And I had a team member, a really quick story between Shane and Andrew. So Shane’s kind of my jokester. Andrew is kind of my straight laced guy. And I hand out this worksheet. I do it with. Like, when I first joined, I had, you know, all of our team in a morning huddle. I said, you know, hey, could you circle those three? And then I said, Hey, would somebody be willing to share their top value? No. Shane raises his hand really fast, mostly to be funny. And I said, Shane, like, hi, you were first like, what was your top value? And he says to me, and he’s never serious. He says, Lisa, when you have a crappy childhood, you make joke and you keep making jokes because it lightens people’s day. And I said, Yeah. Now Andrew, who Shane and Andrew kind of bumped heads. They were like, both in my periphery, so I could kind of see him at the same time, and I could see Andrew, like, giving him the side eye, as almost as if to say, like, so you’re not trying to be an idiot every time we turn around, because Andrew really liked to get work done. Yeah. And was a really, like, mover and shaker in that front after the meeting, I went over and I said, Shane, hey, thanks for sharing that. I said, I want to honor that value. Will you tell us a joke at our morning meeting? Like, will you start our meeting off with a joke every day? And he looked at me and he goes, do they have to be work appropriate? And it was like, Yes, sir, they do, yeah. And for months, he brought jokes to our. Morning meeting. Well, then they switched to dad jokes, and I’m like, Are you gonna be a dad? Like, yeah. On the day that his wife went into labor, I sent an email to the team. I said, Hey, at our morning meeting, we need to figure out coverage for Shane. You know, wife’s out. See you in a few minutes. I get to huddle. Andrew raises his hand, and I’m like, Hi, Andrew. He never raises his hand. I was like, what’s up? And he goes, Well, Shane’s gone. And I was like, Yeah, you know, like Shane has gone. And he pulls out a little piece of paper, and he goes, Well, I looked up a joke. Oh, when you think about empathy and your ability to build culture, part of that is being able to recognize what’s important to people and how they got the way that they are. And if you can start to shine a light on you know, what people value like, I always say that people carry their values when they’re mad, like she doesn’t trust me and they’re not very loyal. They give it to you on a platter. They literally, when you are mad, you mentioned the value that that has been like, violated, yeah. Or they do it when they’re talking about their kids at the water cooler or their faith or hobbies. And so as you think about building a team culture and those connections, I often say, like, look for their values, because what they care about is going to drive connection, which is also going to drive joy. And if you realize that your joy doesn’t have to match theirs, like we had some pretty funny engagement events, because somebody really liked a certain thing, right? And I said to everyone else, I was like, How many of you make it up? How many of you like this and they’re like, not me? And I said, All right, so our job over here is to make like their joy our joy, yeah. And it just gave people permission to not feel like they were being told what to do, but they were told, like, be a part of it, like in your own way,
Maria Ross 31:41
yeah, yeah, 100% I mean, so much of that happened during the pandemic and lockdown. I know my husband’s a chief marketing officer for a company, and they were doing all these fun team building exercises over zoom, like they did a wine tasting one time. They did a create a succulent garden. They did some other stuff, but they also did some activities, and I heard this from other leaders too, where it was like, each team member would talk about their hobby or their, you know, here’s how I’m making sourdough bread right now, or here’s what’s going on in my town. And they gave everyone space within a set meeting, whether it was five or 10 minutes. And it was like, you know, Hey, Lisa, it’s your turn talk to us about your favorite hobby. And that was a way for them to not only get to know each other, but I hadn’t thought about it this way before, and I love the language you’re using. It was the ability to bring someone else into your joy, and when that is appreciated and acknowledged, you feel closer to those people, and you’re more willing to perform and deliver for them. Absolutely.
Lisa Even 32:45
And I often will say to, like, keep an eye on people’s Joy levels. Because if someone says, you know that it’s a question that’s on my one on one form, I have a I’ll give it to you for the show notes, but I have a PB and J worksheet where it’s like, I my the way that I structure my one on ones is people better ways and joy. Because I want to know like, how are you doing? I want to know, do you have any ideas to make things better around here? And then I want to know like, How are you, how is your joy? And if I get to that, what part in my one on one where the person’s like, Lisa, I’m not having any, yeah, that’s that for me. That’s like, a really great gift. I’m like, yeah, oh, we thank you. Like, I need to know that, as a leader, to know that personally or professionally, you are not in a good spot with probably joy, and then maybe even other things in your life. And so it’s a written there’s some prompter questions of, like, how do you ask different ways so that it’s not like the same thing every you know, one on one. Let me read off the sheet like it gives you some like ways to do that, but I think that joy is a big indicator of hobbies, and how are they doing?
Maria Ross 33:48
Yeah, absolutely. So what do you tell a leader who is trying to infuse more joy but they’re having trouble accessing their own joy, like they’re feeling a lot of pressure about that. What’s the way that the team and the culture can sort of contribute to it, versus putting it all on the leader, you know, show us what you got. How are you gonna make our team joyful?
Lisa Even 34:12
Right? Yep, well, and even, like, I had five locations, so I was so spread thin to think that I could create joy for all of them. And so I really looked to my informal leaders, like, kind of looked around and looked and said, like, who can I link arms, like, with Shane story. Yes, Shane likes to have joy. Like, where are your Shanes? And then we started, we called it like a social club. And you could call it so I live in Iowa, but was in Wisconsin for a number of years, and it was almost like our supper club, you know, like, give it a cute name. And then they that group of people, there were, like, two or three that raised their hand and said, like, I had help with some joy around here. And they started to create, similar to what you described for your husband, small, bite sized activities. And I the rule was 510, 15 minute things. So we had, you know. Holiday bingo via email. We had putting little plastic eggs around the holiday times. We had non denominational things for the folks that didn’t celebrate holidays. And it really became I didn’t have to have that burden as a leader, right team could help create it and it my kids have a joy list and a joy calendar, and they are way better at joy than me. Like, sometimes I’m like, Guys, mom’s a little tired. What should we do for some joy? My daughter’s like, we should do paint by number. And I’m like, Yes, we should. And yeah, before I know what I’m printing off things off the internet, it’s the same at work. Like, find those like people that can really help it along. Yeah. So this leads me to another question, which I get a lot too, is, how do you how do you do that in a way that it doesn’t feel like forced fun? Yeah, to people. So I actually say there’s a couple of different versions depending on your personality, because what can come out of my mouth might not work for like, what you could say you’re like, I could never say that, right? And so I lay the case for joy. And I say, guys, is it not stressful around here, like we are working hard? Are we not? And I kind of doubt it’s again, going back to, like, getting them to validate the like, it’s hard, it’s wild out here, right in a good, like, productive way. I’m like, it is busy and we are working fast. We deserve joy, do we not? You know? And I kind of like, lay the groundwork for like, we can be busy, we can be joyful. And then I will say, like, I would love to start creating many moments of that around here. And then I leave it for a little bit right? Like, I put that out there in a staff, yeah, or a huddle, and I just start dripping on them, like coffee, like, and then a few weeks later, I’m like, hey, you know what I mentioned the other day that I wanted to bring more joy, and I read an article about, you know, this organization that was doing some joy, and then, you know, a few weeks go by, and then I’m like, hey, if anybody wants to take part in this thing related to some joy, like, let me know. And I start to kind of get a sense of, like, Who’s up for some joy and who’s like, who’s not? Yeah, because then those people who are not, I tell a funny story about a guy on my team who hated our potlucks. His name was Paul.
Maria Ross 37:08
He would, like, my husband’s name is Paul, and he always hates this kind of stuff, usually. So it’s kind of funny,
Lisa Even 37:13
yeah. And I laugh, because, like, every morning I would walk in and I’d say, Good morning Paul, how are you? And he’d say, Good morning Lisa. I am two years and sunny, right? Like, two years in sunny I’m like, What is this? Well, fast forward, I went on vacation, and we took an overnight ferry, like a big boat. I had never been on a cruise, and I laughed, because the woman at the top of the ship, she kind of solved all of my Paul problems, because I had been telling this other leader right before I left. I was like, I got this guy. We do this two years in sunny thing every morning, and he hates engagement. And the guy goes, I don’t know about the engagement stuff, but I think when he says two years in sunny he’s talking about his retirement forecast. And I was like, Oh, you’re so right. Well, you know, I don’t have a chance to talk to Paul because I’m leaving for vacation, right? We get to the top of this ship, and my girlfriend and I, we were there was two couples, my girlfriend and I and our husbands, and the woman at the top of the ship, she welcomes us aboard, and she says, Hey, we got live entertainment casinos. She’s pointing out all these things. And my girlfriend and I look at each other, and we’re like live entertainment, and our husbands are like casinos. We’re like fake bickering. At this point, she pauses, and she goes, Hi, time out. Can I tell you something? And we were kind of like laughing, like, Yeah, sure. And she goes, not everything is for everyone. Not everything is for everyone. We’ve got something for everybody on this ship. So you too live entertainment. Great. You too casinos, great. Welcome aboard. Get on my ship. And I remember looking at her being like, thank you. I went back to Paul Monday morning when I got back and I said, Good morning, Paul, how are you? And he goes, good morning, I’m two years on sunny. And I was like, Hi, are you gonna retire in two year? And he goes, he kind of looked at me. It’s like, maybe. I said, Yeah. I said, Paul, we got to talk about these potluck and he went on and on, like, I hate the potlucks, you know? And I said, I waited. I waited out. I waited him out. And I said, Paul, you are two years in sunny I got people over here, 40 years in cloudy, Paul, 40 years they got left to work. I’m like, these potlucks are not for you. So the next time at potluck, can you not hate, hate the potlucks at the potluck? And he kind of did this like, and I was like, Okay, bye. And a few weeks later, someone comes to my office, and they’re like, You will never believe who brought a dish to potluck. I looked at her. I was like, was it? Paul? Goes, yeah, it was. How’d you know? I said, I don’t know. I just had a hunch. I went up to my potluck, and I said, Paul, you bring a dick? And he looked at me. He goes, Oh, it’s for the kids.
Lisa Even 39:34
If you can start
Lisa Even 39:37
to like, yeah, where you’re gonna have people who are gonna love it and people who are going to hate it. You’re going to have a call or two on your team, right? But as soon as they know it’s not being forced on them, yes, but you’re inviting them to participate. Yeah, sometimes you’re inviting them to participate. He didn’t need the potluck, but he all of a sudden realized that you know Joey, who has 40 more years. Yeah, dude, that that guy better buckle up. He’s got more potlucks than he knows. What’s coming, yeah. So it’s really this kind of, like, how do you start to shift but also drip and also invite, and when you do have a few prankies, like, that’s okay, like, nod and smile and be like, not today.
Maria Ross 40:13
Yeah. I love it. Oh, my God, such a great story. I love it so much. And I find it hilarious that that person’s name was Paul, your husband. So yeah, this has been such a great conversation. Lisa, thank you. We definitely want folks to check out your work and to check out your books. I want to just remind everyone, it’s joy is my job, and then you have a new book coming out soon. What’s your ripple effect and why it matters more than ever, a leader’s guide to creating lasting impact and influence on your team, I guess right influence on everybody within the organization, on everybody. You can kind of use it on everybody. Okay, great. So we’re going to have all your links in the show notes. Thank you so much for all your insights today. For anyone that’s on the go, where’s the best place they can find out more about you and your work?
Lisa Even 40:59
Yeah, so Lisa, even.com would be the best place to go, and I’ve got worksheets. You can see my podcast. It kind of is almost like the funnel to all of the resources and connecting with me and then connect on social. I’d love to
Maria Ross 41:11
hear. I love it. Thank you so much for your time today, absolutely. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do, rate, review and share with a friend or a colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge calm. There. You can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice. Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
