Can allyship be fun? Or do you envision every inclusion or diversity training as a slog? It doesn’t have to be so heavy-handed!
Today, Jeannie Gainsburg shares why, as a cisgender woman, she became a strong ally. We tackle how to get over the heaviness and blame of allyship and focus on having conversations with an open heart. We discuss pronouns and why sharing your pronouns (even if they seem obvious) is a great ally action. She also offers the best ways to gather pronouns from others without making it awkward. We talked about what being out and authentic at work looks like. Finally, Jeannie shares a few concrete tips and policies for creating a more LGBTQ+ inclusive workplace.
Her encouraging, passionate, and warm-hearted approach will surely jumpstart even the most tentative ally.
To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- There are many causes to fight for – just pick one and start going. Fighting for rights for one, is fighting for rights for all.
- People want to learn, so encouragement, not judgment, is critical.
- We all use pronouns all day, every day. It doesn’t only affect those who are transgender.
“Being an ally is an ongoing journey of messing up. We need to get comfortable with and understand that. Don’t let the fear of messing up or not knowing the right word stop you from having conversations, and know how to apologize. Just have the conversations with an open heart.”
— Jeannie Gainsburg
Episode References:
- Daniel Jahn, The Empathy Edge Podcast: Racial Solidarity and the Psychology of Racism
- Leo Caldwell, The Empathy Edge Podcast: Why Anti-Trans Laws and Homophobia are Anti-Business
- We Can Do Hard Things podcast with Glennon Doyle
Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!
About Jeannie Gainsburg, Founder, Savvy Ally Action
Jeannie Gainsburg is an educational trainer and consultant in the field of LGBTQ+ inclusion and effective allyship. She is the founder of Savvy Ally Action, a small business that offers fun, accessible, and encouraging workshops and videos on how to be an ally to the LGBTQ+ community. Before forming the company, she spent 15 years working for the Out Alliance, the LGBTQ+ center in Rochester, NY.
Her book, The Savvy Ally: A Guide for Becoming a Skilled LGBTQ+ Advocate, was published by Rowman & Littlefield in 2020, with the revised 2nd edition published in March 2023.
Jeannie has a BA in psychology from Brown University and an MA in social work and social research from Bryn Mawr College. She is the recipient of the Empire State Pride Agenda’s Community Champion Award and the Rochester LGBTQ Community Appreciation Award. In 2019, Jeannie also received a citation from the New York State Assembly for Distinguished Educational & Human Rights Services for her work in promoting LGBTQ+ rights and inclusion.
Connect with Jeannie Gainsburg:
Savvy Ally Action: savvyallyaction.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jeannie-gainsburg
Facebook: facebook.com/savvyally
Instagram: instagram.com/jeanniegainsburgauthor
Book: The Savvy Ally: A Guide for Becoming a Skilled LGBTQ+ Advocate (2nd Edition)
Bonus: 100% of royalties from 1st-year sales of the 2nd edition are donated to LGBTQ+ nonprofits working to create a more inclusive world!
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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business and Ally ship be fun. Or do you envision every inclusion or diversity training as a slog? An excuse to just argue blame and shame? Well, it doesn’t have to be so heavy handed. Learning to be empathetic and inclusive is not only not political, but good for business. And yes, it can be an encouraging and enriching experience. My guest today, Jeannie Gainsbourg is an educational trainer and consultant on LGBTQ plus inclusion and effective ally ship. She’s the founder of savvy ally action and wrote a wonderful book, the savvy ally, a guide for becoming a skilled LGBTQ plus advocate. Now in its second edition, Jeannie offers fun, accessible and encouraging workshops and videos on how to be an ally to the LGBTQ plus communities. Prior to starting her own company, she spent 15 years working for the out Alliance, the LGBTQ plus Center in Rochester, New York, and has received numerous awards and citations for her work. Her encouraging passionate and warm hearted approach will surely jumpstart even the most tentative ally. Today, Jeanne shares why As a cisgender woman who knew very little about the LGBTQ plus community, why she became a strong ally. We tackle how to get over the heaviness and blame of ally ship and focus on having conversations with an open heart. We discuss the deal with pronouns and why sharing your pronouns, even if they’re obvious, is a great ally action. Genie offers the best ways to gather pronouns from others without making it awkward. Jeanne responds to the common complaint. Sexual orientation is inappropriate to discuss at work, and why that thinking confuses the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. We talk about what being out and authentic at work actually looks like. Finally, Jeanne shares a few concrete tips and policies for creating a more LGBTQ plus inclusive workplace. Such a great episode, take a listen. Quick offer for you. Listen up all your marketers, business owners, entrepreneurs, all of you trying to connect and engage with an audience to grow your impact and revenue. I’m all about strengthening empathy to achieve radical success. And this all started for me in my wheelhouse of marketing. See, I realized the key to attracting and engaging the right customers is all about understanding them seeing things from their point of view. Empathy is a marketers superpower if it’s wielded responsibly. So after running too successful real time cohorts, I now opening up my brandstory breakthrough course as an on demand offering. Take it when you want how you want for as long as you want five modules of videos and playbooks designed to help you articulate your goals. Understand your customers, define your different and land on your perfect brand story and marketing message. So you stand out and attract that perfect fit audience. Marketing is not about lying to people. It’s about empathy. are elevating the truth of your story. And in this on demand course, you’ll learn the exact steps that my past brand clients have gone through to craft a clear and compelling and consistent brand message that guides everything you do. You’ll walk away with a brand story strategy, ideal customer profiles, and even website and social media profile copy. Plus, with this on demand course you get access to weekly Friday office hours with me. Yep, ask questions, get feedback, share new memes, discover new insights to help your business shine. It’s insanely cost effective and extremely valuable to your business and goals. So check out the details@bit.ly slash VSP course, that’s bi T dot L y slash V S v course, or click the link in the show notes. See you on the other side. Well, welcome Jeanne Gaines burn to the empathy edge Podcast. I’m so glad to have you here to talk about how we can be savvy allies in the workplace. Welcome.
Jeannie Gainsburg 06:05
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. I’m thrilled to be here.
Maria Ross 06:08
So tell us a little bit. You know, we just heard your bio. But tell us a little bit about the story of how you actually came to this work. That’s always the most interesting nugget of how people get to the work and their calling that they do in the world.
Jeannie Gainsburg 06:22
Yeah, so I am a straight cisgender ally to the communities Meaning I’m not transgender, I’m not part of the LGBTQ plus communities, I grew up in a very straight cisgender world, always felt like LGBTQ plus inclusion was kind of a no brainer, but was never an ally was never active, didn’t even know there was a role for me to play as an ally. You know, back when I was a kid, I don’t even think I knew the word ally wasn’t being used the way it is today in social justice circles. And so I did a lot of nothing for a long time. And then at age 40, and 2003, several things came together at once that really launched me into what ended up being a career as an active ally. One was that I had young children who were in school, and I was not happy with what I was hearing. They were the especially the boys were teasing each other over at school, you know, saying some pretty derogatory things about gay kids. And I was like, Really, we’re still there. I don’t know, I somehow expected things were in better than when I was looking at marriage equality was newly in the media. And it was one of the first things that I was able to latch on to and think, oh, there’s something I can help with. Because in my ignorance, I really didn’t even know what there was to, to support. And then finally, my husband gave me a book about the women who had fought in the US for my my right as a woman to vote. And I was doing that thing that I do when I read history. I don’t know if you do this, Maria. But when I read history, I tend to think, you know, how would I have behaved if I live back then what I have salutely no known that this was right or wrong would have been involved. And I had course convinced myself that I would have been marching right alongside all those amazing women who fought for my right to vote. And it suddenly hit me how hypocritical I was being because I’m like, here, I am fantasizing about how I would have behaved 100 years ago, and I am not doing a thing about any of this right now in my lifetime. And there’s, you know, social justice fights going on in my lifetime. So it was something that really struck me that evening, it was still with me in the morning, I looked up the word gay in the phonebook, because I didn’t know what else was out there. And actually, ironically, our agency I’m coming to you from Rochester, New York, our LGBTQ plus agency at the time was called the Gay Alliance. So it was very easy to find. And I picked up the phone and asked if I could volunteer, and that ended up launching me into what ended up being a career as a as an ally, I worked for that agency for 15 years, two years as a volunteer 13 years as staff. My final five years there, I was the education director, which just put a wealth of information in my head about how to be a really effective ally. And, and then following that position. I wrote the book because it was information I wanted to get out into the world. Well,
Maria Ross 09:04
and I’m curious, because I, I relate to so much of what you’re saying. And sometimes I get paralyzed with. There’s so many groups I want to work with or double down on. And so is it. Is it the gay community? Is it women’s rights? Is it you know, racial equity, is it So what specifically made you land on, you know, opening your eyes to the hypocritical nature, which again, I completely relate to, and I see you on that. What made you double down on gay and lesbian and queer rights? An ally ship?
Jeannie Gainsburg 09:40
Yeah. So of course, the more I do this work, the more I realized these are all intertwined all of these intersectional identities. So I’m actually fighting for all of the things you just mentioned. And, you know, that was a slow realization for me, but you know, I’m really starting to understand that this is true, but I really think that I’ll be vulnerable here. I think it was a And parents, I really do. I think that what I was hearing from my kids was teasing about, you know, the boys being gay in a derogatory way. I wasn’t hearing negative racial comments coming from my kids. In fact, they seem pretty, pretty comfortable with racial difference. So, again, I think that was totally my, my ignorance. You know, since then I have educated myself a bit more on racial justice. And, you know, so, you know, and disability to wasn’t even on my radar, but disability rights, I mean, all those things, I think are blossoming now, as I’m involved in this work, but I really just think it was ignorance. That’s why I said, when I heard marriage equality in the news, I was like, oh, there’s something I can fight for. You know? Yeah. So yeah, I really think it was that that this population, it wasn’t anything personal. I didn’t have anyone in my family who’s part of the LGBTQ plus communities. So interest zapper an answer.
Maria Ross 10:54
I love that. No, I love it. I love the vulnerability of it, because that’s where, again, and I’m sure people listening too. Sometimes we get paralyzed. And like, I don’t know which battle to fight first. So I’m not going to do anything, right. Yes, it just feels so overwhelming. And I love that you took that feeling of like, I’m not doing anything, and you did something. And as you said, they’re all interrelated. When we’re fighting for rights for one marginalized community, we’re fighting for rights for everybody. Right? So I want to bring up something that I loved that I saw on your website, which is that you say, you offer a fun and encouraging approach to being an active ally to the LGBTQ plus communities. What does that mean? And why is that different than what you see out there?
Jeannie Gainsburg 11:41
Hmm, great question. So this isn’t 100% across the board, what I’m seeing, but I do sometimes see information for allies, which sounds like this, being an ally is a 24/7 job, you don’t get to take a break, here’s a list of things that you have to do in order for you to call yourself an ally. And I see these things. And I think, okay, being LGBTQ plus is not a choice being an ally is people can do absolutely nothing, who is going to sign up for a job that you can’t take a break, it’s 24/7. And you have to check off all these boxes, which by the way, I do this work full time, and I can’t check all those boxes, you know, it’s the daunting list. It is so intimidating. It’s so unforgiving of mistakes, it’s unforgiving of, you know, the ally who’s fairly active, and then all of a sudden, they’re suddenly they’re taking care of an aging parent, and they just don’t have the time that they had before. I’m like, this is not the way to get people on board. With ally ship. I really So my approach is very much well, I’ll see fun for a moment. But my approach is very much encouraging it, I let people know that being an ally is an ongoing journey of messing up. We need to get comfortable with that and understand that. And, you know, don’t let that fear of messing up or not maybe knowing the right word, stop you from having conversations and just know how to apologize and you know, have conversations with an open heart. And most of the folks I talk with who make up the participants in my workshops, for example, are these big hearted people who want to do the right thing. And they’re scared to death to open their mouth, they’re so afraid they’re going to make an error. And so, so I am very encouraging. And then the fun part. I just, you know, I wanted my book and my workshops to be just enjoyable. I didn’t want someone to, I didn’t want it to be like an academic slog that somebody had to read. I’m like, why not make this fun? Why not add humor where it’s appropriate? My book and my workshops are filled with fun pop quizzes, like what do gay people actually do in the bedroom? Choices are, you know, read books, change the sheets, you know, only back and under the bed, have sex all of the above, you know, just goofy things like that to make right giggle about the stereotypes and the myths and the misunderstandings about the community. I add fun facts like you can’t actually tell a lesbian biker shoes. For those who think, you know, you see someone wearing Birkenstocks. Obviously that’s a lesbian. I was the only woman who wore Birkenstocks in our center. So I love I love that, that I busting that myth. But I just think it should be fun. It should be, you know, again, as entertaining as possible. So people want to read the book, and they want to learn and I think that in that encouragement pieces is so critical.
Maria Ross 14:33
Thank you for saying that because you’re reminding me of a previous guest. We had Daniel John DJ, and he does work with sole focus group and his approach. E is African American, mixed, I believe. And his approach to the work of dei is similar in that he’s like we’re not going to have conversations with people if all we’re doing is judging and shaming them. Like yes, there are things that are wrong with the system. There. things that are wrong with people who hold certain beliefs, we want to change that. But the way to get people onside is to actually this idea of coming together. And unity should be uplifting, it should be encouraging, it should be fun. It shouldn’t be. Here’s all the things you did wrong till I beat you down to a pulp. And then now we’re going to rebuild. Now we’re going to reconstruct everything. So in fact, I love that there’s way more, there’s a lot more experts in ally ship that are out there talking about this. And I don’t say that as a white woman, who is just scared of conflict. I’m not. I’m also Italian American. So I’m not scared of conflict. But this i But this idea that it has to, like you said that it has to be so heavy handed. Because how are we going to reach people, if we don’t have empathy for where they are in the process and be able to get them on side? Because what is the goal? Right? It’s just like, parenting is the goal to punish your child or is the goal to help your child learn and grow? The goal is to help people learn and grow. And so we can do that in a fun and light way. Even when we’re talking about heavy things. I think that’s the other thing you mentioned, I think some people are scared to make light of it or use humor, because they feel it’s disrespectful, or they feel like they’re just exacerbating the problem. So kudos to you for trying to make it accessible to everyone. So given you know, we talk a lot on the show about all facets of empathy and dei be ally ship across all different marginalized groups is such a part of that because it’s about understanding somebody else’s lived experience. So you know, when you do hear comments from people that say, oh, dei is inappropriate to discuss at work, or sexual orientations, specifically, is inappropriate to discuss at work. What does? How should people respond to that? And what does being out and authentic at work look like? I think people have a different idea of what it means to be out at work and the behaviors that will ensue from that. So tell us a little bit about what you say to skeptics who say this doesn’t belong in the workplace?
Jeannie Gainsburg 17:15
Yeah, this is a very common question that I hear often, you know, there’s no sexual orientation, I don’t bring my sexual orientation to work, there’s no play, you know. So there’s a couple of things that I like to do. And I often encourage allies to listen for the confusion over between sexual orientation and sexual behaviors. So sexual orientation comes to work with us, folks, we can’t, we can’t leave it at home. I say it’s kind of like, you know, you’re asking someone to leave their sexual orientation home is kind of like saying, Can you leave the fact that you’re Jewish at home, because that really has nothing to do with work? You know, you can’t leave the fact that you’re Jewish at home, and you can’t leave the fact that you’re a lesbian, or a gay man or bisexual at home. It’s part of who you are, and it comes to work, what isn’t what doesn’t come to work, unless the caveat is, of course, if you’re a sex worker, that’s different, but in the corporate world, what doesn’t come to work is our sexual behaviors. And I think that confusion is what really, really again, it just it just confuses folks. And so what it looks like when you are authentic at work, or you’re bringing your sexual orientation to work, and you’re not hiding that is, you know, you’re able to put a picture of your family on your desk, or you’re able to bring your loved one to the company party, you know, the same way that straight people are doing these things, and probably not even thinking twice about it. And so one of the things that I like to share is that even though your orientation comes to work, and the fact that you’re Jewish comes to work, I’ll use both of these examples. You can’t keep them at home, all you can do is hide them if you feel unsafe with both of those things, right. And that leads to a really ugly situation at work, where people are not being able to be themselves and they’re, they’re having to think about, you know, maybe who they told and who they didn’t, or they’re literally lying there. You know, I like to give an example of like the lesbian at work, who basically switches the pronouns when she talks about her wife, you know, because she’s, she’s not sure if she’s, it’s safe, but work for her to share that she has a wife, she’s still a lesbian at workbooks. That hasn’t changed, right? She’s just having to cover she’s having to hide who she is. Right. And, you know, I think a lot of people can relate to that, whether it’s, I don’t feel safe to sharing that I’m Jewish, I don’t feel safe sharing that I have maybe a disability, right? That isn’t obvious to people. I’m going to hide that because I don’t feel like that’s going to be okay at work. I think a lot of people can relate to those things. And so orientation is the same and being authentic at work. You know, anyone who’s done any research into this knows that it’s actually good for business to be out and authentic at work like people are more likely to have jobs satisfied. Action, they’re more likely to make connections with coworkers, that retention is better. And it’s also been shown that companies that you know, welcome and include LGBTQ plus people, that they have higher company value, they’re more productive, they have higher profits, these things are all being shown. So this is also good for business and not just good for our LGBTQ plus co workers completely.
Maria Ross 20:23
And I did an interview, I’ll put the link in the show notes to another interview I did with Leo Caldwell, who’s an LGBTQ plus consultant and teacher and workshop leader. And he talked about the fact that we titled that episode, why transphobic laws are anti business, because it is this idea of if your employees and if we want to be really cold hearted about it, your assets are too preoccupied trying to and I use this in all aspects of empathy, trying to protect themselves and survive and save their own skin. And they’re worried about you. They’re watching their backs every second. Are they innovating for you? Are they performing for you? Are they are they creating? Are they coming up with with creative solutions that actually move your business forward and contribute to the bottom line? No, they’re preoccupied. And who wants preoccupied employees? Right. That’s not good for the business. Yeah. And so it just reminded me of that, when you were bringing up that point, that what we’re talking about here is people that have to watch every move, they have to watch what they say, they can’t be who they are, that is detracting from them doing the work you hired them to do. And so it’s not good for your business. Like, I don’t know why that’s not super clear to people. But, you know, we talked about so many other distractions, right, like, oh, you know, this person’s not gonna be able to do this job because they’re, you know, they have a new puppy and they can’t do it, we’re able to talk about all these other things. Oh, sense. Yeah, that makes sense, right. But, but when we talk about this, it’s just crazy to me. But anyway, what? Let’s, let’s get specific. Let’s talk about the issue of pronouns, because you get a lot of eye rolls when you talk to certain people about why pronouns are important. And why is sharing your pronouns, a great ally action, even if you’re cisgender? Yep. So there’s a couple things
Jeannie Gainsburg 22:29
I want to say first of all, pronouns, I know that pronouns are getting such a bad reputation, and I’m just so confused by it. So I just want to say that pronouns are not something that only transgender folks use Dragoman our hour without using a pronoun like pronouns are important for all of us, they’re as important as our names are, it’s just that most of us, many of us, I should say, you move through the world, and the correct pronoun is chosen for us. And so we don’t realize the impact of having the wrong pronoun used for us and how hurtful that is, and how difficult that is. It’s not pronouns have not been invented by transgender people. I also want to let you know that there are plenty of transgender people who move through the world and the correct pronoun is used for them. And there are also cisgender people who move through the world and the wrong pronoun is used for them. So this is not just, you know, over misgendering those transgender folks, yes, I think more often, it affects our transgender and non binary friends, but there are plenty of cisgender folks who have just because of their gender expression, maybe women who have very short hair or broad shoulders, they get misgendered I, I listened to a podcast called we can do hard things, and Abby Wambach was sharing that she gets misgendered constantly. She’s in the women’s restroom, and people are like, Oh, sir, I think you’re in the wrong room. And you know, he’s, he’s used for her. So this isn’t just something that affects our transgender friends. And I like to make sure people understand that, but it’s a great question. Like, why would someone share their pronouns if even if they’re obvious, so I’m someone who I moved to the world I’ve never once had someone use the wrong pronoun for me. And here I am on Zoom. I know folks probably can’t see this, but I have my name. And I have my pronouns right listed right after my Name, which I think is a great practice. I’m going to share a story to talk about how critical this is. So I had a person in my my one of my workshops recently, I’m gonna call them Arey their pronouns are they them and they started a new job. And they walked onto this job and there were no systems in place for this person to comfortably share their pronouns and by systems I mean, you know, when they applied for the job pronouns, were not an optional section for them to fill out when they went to the first meeting to meet the other the other staff members there was not when they did the go around, hey, let’s all say our name and our titles. No one said and if you feel comfortable share your pronouns. So there is no system to share your pronouns. So people looked at airy and based on their gender expression decided that their pronouns must be she her and they just immediately started using she her so Every candidate New Job was being misgendered wrong pronoun use didn’t know if they were safe to share that their pronouns were actually they them, and went for a couple of weeks like this not knowing what to do. And finally, what they did was they noticed that a few of their co workers had shared their pronouns in their email signatures. And airy went to these coworkers and basically shared their problem and said, This is what’s going on. And those co workers group together, started using their correct pronoun for Arey helped others get their pronoun correct. And started implementing systems in the workplace, to, you know, make it at just an optional thing for anyone who wants to share. So now, this system is in place for people to do that. So others coming in now? No, it’s safe to do that. Now, the reason I like sharing the story, I mean, several reasons. It’s a very cool story. But anyone who thinks like, oh, I don’t want to share my pronouns, people think I’m just doing it because it’s woke, you know, I’m gonna get teased for being you know, ultra woke like this. This is actually not like, like virtue signaling. I mean, this is Ally signaling, it’s a great way to let people know that you are on board with, you know, anyone under the sun, regardless of their gender expression, or their pronouns, or anything like that. So I think it’s a lovely thing to do. The only other thing I’ll share about why I share my pronouns is it’s a great way to normalize the behavior. So if you think about, like, how awkward a world it would be if the only people, for example, walking around at a conference with pronouns on their shirts, were the ones whose pronouns weren’t the hobbyists, I mean, talk about othering, right? Like, Oh, those are those weirdos over there with pronouns on their shirt. Like, every time an ally, puts a pronoun on their shirt, you know, whether their pronouns are obvious or not, they are helping to create this culture, where this becomes the norm. And it makes it so much easier for those other people to share their pronouns because they have to, for people to get it, right. I
Maria Ross 26:54
love that, because it’s like you said, it’s a signal that it’s okay. And still, if a transgender individual chooses not to share their pronouns, that’s okay, too. But it always be optional. It’s this idea of saying, I understand, and I see you and I’m not a threat. And it’s making me think of a story a friend told me about the fact that they were one of the only houses in their neighborhood several years ago that had a Black Lives Matter sign in their window, and they were like, Oh, it doesn’t matter. That’s just such a surface thing. It’s like, you know, whatever. And they had a black tradesmen come to the house to do some work, who actually said, thank you for putting the sign up, because at least I knew I would be safe here. Yeah. And she said, literally, it’s the least I can do, like, stick a sign on that window. But I’m glad it’s appreciated. Because, you know, so this is sort of the least we can do.
Jeannie Gainsburg 27:49
Yeah, it’s a great ally accent it. The other thing I want to say just because there’s so much confusion around pronouns is when we ask people, and it should always be optional. So when we give people the opportunity to share pronouns, we are not asking anyone, how they identify people, I think confused this, we are not saying Are you trans? Are you lesbian? All we’re saying is how may I respectfully refer to you it’s much more similar to asking for someone’s title. You know, you look at me, you have no idea whether I’m a Mrs or a miss, or a ms or a mix, which is a gender neutral title, or a doctor or even a Mr. For that matter, unless you ask me, right? And so pronouns are the same. And if we think about it, like just respectfully asking people what their title is, I think people will, it’ll help people understand what it is that we’re asking, well,
Maria Ross 28:37
on many forms, there’s a suffix required, where I have to put Mrs. or Ms. Or I have to put something right. So why not have that be an actually you’re you’re sparking me because I have been meaning to add pronoun to my guest form from my website. So I need to do that. Usually, usually it comes through in their bio, but I need to actually ask them that. Yo, thank you for talking us through that. Because I think that’s a really confusing point for people, even if they want to be an ally, they’re like, but I don’t understand like someone should just if they want to tell me their evey or this or that they can just tell me but they don’t know. And it’s a great signal to just say that I do want to bring up one last thing before we leave the topic of pronouns that I’ve noticed. I’m a Jeopardy junkie, I DVR it and watch it over lunch hour and binge it when I’ve been on vacation. I’m a dork. They have had several contestants, where they have been I have noticed they have referred to them as they. The host has referred to them as they and I thought that is amazing that we have one of the oldest game shows on TV, a very, you know, conservative, if you will kind of game show and even they are honoring people by calling them the pronoun they prefer to be called. And so I noticed that for a few people, obviously for their transgender contestants, they were calling them the appropriate pronoun that that person wanted But there were a few people that didn’t, quote unquote, seem transgender, and may not have been, but they preferred to be referred to as they. So I was I was loving it that they wounds are changed.
Jeannie Gainsburg 30:11
And I share my cool thing that I did was silly. I was watching the movie Juno, Elliott page, and I noticed that when you watch on Amazon Prime, and you pause it, it’s got the like trivia, you know, like information about the movie, they went back and changed all of the, all of the places where it talked about Elliott and his pronouns to the current Elliott, and he didn’t know at the time that he had made the movie, he was not using that name, or those pronouns. I thought that was incredibly classy. Yeah, so they couldn’t change, you know, in like the credits that’s embedded in a movie, they can’t change that. But to go back and change all of the name and pronoun to reflect his current name and pronouns, like, that’s amazing. That’s it. I love that. Okay,
Maria Ross 30:55
so I know we’ve sort of beat pronouns to death here. But let’s talk a little bit about let’s get into the meat of it and talk a little bit about your favorite ally tips for creating more LGBTQ plus inclusive workplaces, what are things, leaders, and even just colleagues, individual contributors can actually do that, or low hanging fruit to help someone feel welcome and included?
Jeannie Gainsburg 31:17
Wonderful. So I’ll share, I’ll share two of my favorite tips. And I’m going to share them because I think as we move through the world, we should be using them both sort of in a circle. And I’ll tell you what I mean by that. So the first thing we should do is if we don’t know anything about someone, we should engender our language and our expectations. So, you know, I give the example of, you know, oh, you have a new coworker, and you see, she’s wearing a wedding ring, and you’re like, Oh, that’s a gorgeous ring, what is your husband do, which is like a really common thing that occurs, people make assumptions about, you know, who’s someone’s loved one is, so I have a husband, that’s not going to cause me any anxiety. But if I have a wife, you have boxed me into a corner, literally, like you’re forcing me into a situation where I have to come out or not make a decision, or was it come out or not. And that’s awful that we do that to LGBTQ plus people, I always say anyone who thinks that coming out, it’s like this fabulous day with music playing and glitter flying, which it totally should be. It’s not, it’s like an ongoing process, partly because of our gender to, you know, some ocean. So let’s not make those assumptions, let’s use on gender terms, let’s use spouse, that’s his partner, let’s use children, all of these things. And then the next your next tip is that we should mirror the terms that people are using for themselves in their loved ones. So if we then hear someone, say, my wife, now with this person has given us valuable information about how to be respectful to them, and we should use the term wife. So I know a lot of people when it comes to LGBTQ plus, folks, they latch on to that word partner, and they’re like, I gotta use partner, but they hold on so tight that that becomes offensive, right? So I know, like lesbian couples who are like, I keep introducing my wife. And they keep saying this is Ann’s partner and like, I didn’t introduce my partner introducing my whip. So as we move through the world, we’re on gendering if we have no idea, and then we’re listening to how people refer to themselves and their loved ones. And we’re using those words. So words like husband and girlfriend are not naughty words that we should never use, right? They’re words that are perfectly good words if they apply to people. And so that’s, that’s just those two things. And gender language mirror terms are just we should just be using that as we move through the world constantly to have respectful and inclusive conversations. And believe me, LGBTQ plus folks are listening for that they’re listening for the partner instead of the wife or the husband. Yeah,
Maria Ross 33:45
right. What what are some things in terms of policy or education that workplaces can be doing to make things more inclusive? So those are quick hit individuals that’s up to you as you as you navigate those relationships. But what can actually be done? What are one or two highlights? I’m sure there’s many What are one or two highlights that that leaders can incorporate into their processes and systems? Well, we
Jeannie Gainsburg 34:10
talked about pronouns and I don’t want to beat it to death, but I think it is, it is a really easy thing for a leader to do, which is to share their own pronouns and to create systems where everyone has the opportunity to share if they want to, and that’s the language that I use, and you have the opportunity to share if you want to, it should always be optional, but that is again with your low hanging fruit for a leader that’s something that’s pretty easy to implement. And so that that’s a good one um, engendered facilities are so important, you know, making sure that you have restrooms for example, that are single stall and unrendered. So if you have restrooms now that are single stall and gendered, there’s really no reason for them to be so in a very easy fix is to just change that sign to all gender and avoid if you would avoid the half and half person because no one actually looks like that. and really dislike that just all gender, or restroom, or a toilet image, like all those things are great. But yeah, avoid the half and half. And listen, that’s bad. And to tell you,
Maria Ross 35:12
I have to tell you, there’s such a funny sign. I’ve seen it. I’ve seen a few places now, at restaurants that have all inclusive restrooms, and it’s a picture, it’s that you know, the stick figure of the male, the stick figure, the female, they do have the stick figure of the half skirt, whatever. And then they have the stick figure of for disability, and the stick figure for pregnant person. And then they have an alien. And the design just says, whatever, just wash your hands.
Jeannie Gainsburg 35:39
I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it. And I giggled hard that I I’m snapping pictures, and I’m sending it to people. I actually talked about that in my book. So this is
Maria Ross 35:50
your point about let’s have fun with it. Let’s be a little bit light hearted if we can, right. Yeah,
Jeannie Gainsburg 35:55
yeah. So I talked about the different like options for for signs. Yeah, so all gender restrooms, and I think that when you get to renovating buildings, that’s when we really need to look at like, what ideally should this look like. So that’s, that’s more long term. But that’s how that’s helpful for and respectful, not just for, like our non binary friends or our trans friends who are transitioning, but like people who have disabilities, people who need a little more room, people who need a caregiver to come into the restroom with them, people who have small children, I mean, you know, there’s so many people that are helped by having a single stall all gender restroom. So that that’s, again, something to look at. One more policy thing that I would just say is that a lot of people have, you know, when they look at their non discrimination policies, there’s actually three things they should have there. Not everyone is aware of this sexual orientation, most people have that, as in we do not discriminate, you know, with regards to sexual orientation, gender identity, is the other one. And the third one is gender expression. So the gender expression protects everyone really from someone saying, Oh, you need to dress a little more feminine in the workplace. So that’s that, you know, that’s an important piece as well. But those three are important to make sure that you have those included in your non discrimination policies. Not so good. So good. Well,
Maria Ross 37:18
thank you so much for your time and your insights today, Jeanne, we really appreciate it. We hope everyone will check out the book, the savvy ally, a guide for becoming a skilled LGBTQ plus advocate now in its second edition, and I do want to mention that you’re doing something really exciting with the second edition, you’re donating 100% of royalties from the first year of sales for the second edition to LGBTQ plus nonprofits working to create a more inclusive world. So thank you for that. So, folks, not only can you glean all these great insights from the book, but you can do a little good in the world as well. So please, go ahead and purchase a copy of the book for yourself and or one of your colleagues. Jeanne, we’re gonna have all your links in the show notes, but where for folks on the go or exercising or whatever, where’s a good place that they can find out more about you and your work? Yeah,
Jeannie Gainsburg 38:10
the best place is my website, which is savvy ally action.com. There, you can purchase my book, you can message me directly. If you have questions. I love getting questions from the community, it actually helps me become a savvier ally. You can see the workshops that I offer. I’ve also got a lot of free goodies on there, some free handouts and free videos and things like that.
Maria Ross 38:29
Awesome. Awesome. And like I said, we’ll have all your links in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time today.
Jeannie Gainsburg 38:34
Thank you. This was fun. I appreciate being on your show. And thank
Maria Ross 38:37
you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, rate, review and share with a friend or colleague. And until next time, please remember that kashflow creativity and compassion and inclusivity are not mutually exclusive. Take care of the kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
