September Hot Take: It’s Finally HERE!

“For all the bold leaders embracing a more human-centered approach and performing at the highest levels, your choices impact and influence your colleagues, families, and communities, that’s a win for us all.” This is just a small snippet from the dedication of The Empathy Dilemma which is out today! I am so excited to share this book with all of you who have been with me as listeners to this podcast and during this journey. Listen in to find out how you can get your hands on the book, whether one copy or hundreds of copies, and to find out more about how we can all get this book into the hands of a wider audience and spread the hopeful message of empathy to leaders everywhere. I hope you enjoy the book. I hope it is valuable for you and your team. I hope you implement some of the tactics and let me know how it goes! I’d love to hear from you.

To access the episode transcript, please click on the episode title at www.TheEmpathyEdge.com 

Key Takeaways:

  • Once you embrace empathy and see another person’s point of view, you can’t unsee it.
  • If your favorite bookstore does not have The Empathy Dilemma, you can ask them to order it! It is widely available now everywhere books are sold. 
  •  To spark a movement of empathy in the workplace and a new paradigm for culture and work, please rate and review the book on Amazon and give an honest review, whether you thought it was just okay or you thought it was amazing – it will help spread the empathy movement further.

This book is for those leaders who want to embrace the new paradigm of leadership, but are struggling a little bit. I wanted to provide you some context, but also actionable strategies and tactics to shore up your foundation so that you can be empathetic with your teams while still expecting high performance, accountability, and results.

—  Maria Ross

From Our Partner:

Download the 2024 Ninth Annual State of Workplace Empathy study from Businessolver: www.businessolver.com/edge 

Discover more valuable content from Businessolver on The Benefits Pulse vodcast: www.businessolver.com/benefits-pulse 

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red SliceThreads: @redslicemaria

Dr. Yosi Amram: How Spiritual Intelligence Makes You a Better Leader

Today, I have a wonderful conversation with Dr. Yosi Amram, author of Spiritually Intelligent Leaders: How to Inspire by Being Inspired. We talk about what spiritual intelligence is and how it compares to emotional intelligence, how it is not limited to a religious doctrine or even a spiritual belief in God, and how it contributes to effective leadership and high-performing teams. We talk about why command and control leadership can work in battle but not so well elsewhere, the first step to develop and deepen your spiritual intelligence, and its role in an AI-powered world. You will love the insights shared and may look at your own leadership style in a whole new way.

To access the episode transcript, please click on the episode title at TheEmpathyEdge.com

Key Takeaways:

  • While emotional intelligence and spiritual intelligence are complementary, they are two distinct things.
  • Spiritual intelligence transcends specific religions, spiritual experiences, and spiritual beliefs.
  • Empathy is crucial to build teams no matter the type of leader you are. In battle, you need a certain level of command and control, but when you’re not in battle you need that empathy and connection.
  • Our bodies are energy. Because of that, we are connected to the sun. We are connected to life. We are connected to everything.

Spiritual intelligence becomes more important for us as humans, as more and more of the things about our life and jobs could be mechanized or taken over by AI.

—  Dr. Yosi Amram

Episode References:

Atomic Habits by James Clear

How Leaders Inspire: Cracking the Code by Bain & Company: bain.com/insights/how-leaders-inspire-cracking-the-code

The Empathy Edge episodes:

Amer Kaissi: Humbitious Leadership Equals Success

Susan Hunt Stevens: The ROI of Psychological Safety

Michelle Sherman: Why The Most Successful Leaders Combine Resilience With Imagination

Dr. Michelle Zhou: Empathic AI is Real and It’s Here – But We Need Everyone Involved!

From Our Partner:

Download the 2024 Ninth Annual State of Workplace Empathy study from Businessolver: businessolver.com/edge

Discover more valuable content from Businessolver on The Benefits Pulse vodcast: businessolver.com/benefits-pulse

About Yosi Amram, Author, Psychologist, CEO Coach

Yosi Amram, Ph.D., is a distinguished psychologist, an executive coach catering to CEOs, entrepreneurs, and other influential leaders, and a pioneer researcher in the field of spiritual intelligence. Holding an MBA from Harvard University and a Ph.D. from Sofia University in Clinical Transpersonal Psychology, Dr. Amram is committed to enabling individuals to unlock their potential through spiritual intelligence, which is a profound connection to the core of one’s existence that enriches their overall functioning, improves their effectiveness, and enhances their wellbeing.

Dr. Amram is the author of Spiritually Intelligent Leadership: How to Inspire by Being Inspired, which offers a compelling roadmap that equips leaders with the means to connect with the true source of their authentic power and presence deep within themselves. By utilizing Dr. Amram’s modern integrative methods and practical applications, readers will transform their leadership, and build, manage, and inspire high-performing teams.

Connect with Yosi Amram:

Website: YosiAmram.net

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/yosiamram

Facebook: facebook.com/yosi.amram.7

Book: Spiritually Intelligent Leadership: How to Inspire by Being Inspired

amazon.com/Spiritually-Intelligent-Leadership-Inspire-Inspired/dp/1960583697

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

Markus van Alphen: Observational Listening and Being an Excellent Leader

What makes an excellent leader? Today my guest shares why he believes that leaders who develop their empathy and emotional intelligence are not just better leaders – they become excellent leaders. An excellent leader looks after their own wellbeing by looking after the wellbeing of the people they lead. Markus van Alphen is a leadership psychologist, author, teacher, trainer, organizational consultant, counselor and restorative practitioner. 

Today, Markus and I talk about what a leadership psychologist does, what is observational listening, and how it enables leaders to be more empathetic to create psychological safety, reduce burnout, and increase engagement. He shares what makes an excellent leader – and how they never need to motivate anyone! We chat about why leadership is not viewed as a standalone skill, the link between leadership excellence and corporate social responsibility, the impact of toxic leadership on your bottom line, and how to really change a culture by starting with yourself as a role model.

To access the episode transcript, please click on the episode title at www.TheEmpathyEdge.com 

Key Takeaways:

  • Your shareholders are stakeholders, but they are only one of the stakeholders. Make sure you consider all of your stakeholders in your leadership practices. 
  • People often struggle in conversations because they’re too often in their heads and trying to plan the conversation within themselves, not participate in the conversation. 
  • As the leader, you do not always have to have (or give) the answer to every question. Encourage collaboration in your team by demonstrating that with them. This will help to empower them and help your team learn the skills to solve the next challenges going forward.

People are always motivated. I don’t even believe that you, as a leader, need to motivate your people. I believe it’s about finding out what motivates them.

—  Markus van Alphen

Episode References: 

From Our Partner (keep through 1/31/25):

Download the 2024 Ninth Annual State of Workplace Empathy study from Businessolver: www.businessolver.com/edge 

Discover more valuable content from Businessolver on The Benefits Pulse vodcast: www.businessolver.com/benefits-pulse 

About Markus van Alphen, Director, Excellent Leader

Markus is a leadership psychologist, author, teacher, trainer, organizational consultant, counselor and restorative practitioner. He is an authority on empathy, emotional intelligence, and well-being. Markus has a master’s degree in Psychology from the University of Amsterdam and a degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering from the University of Cape Town. As a thought leader, he introduces the term Observational Listening, a theme he has written several books about, including The Excellent Leader and The More Excellent Leader.

Connect with Markus van Alphen:

Bureau the Excellent Organisation: https://Excellent-Leader.com 

X: https://twitter.com/MarkusvanAlphen 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markusvanalphen/ 

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com

PRE-SALE SPECIAL! Pre-order 1 to 99 copies of Maria’s new book, The Empathy Dilemma for your leaders, exec team, (or yourself?!) and GET 30%! https://bit.ly/TEDSpecialPresale Offer ends August 27, 2024!

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red SliceThreads: @redslicemaria

Kristine Scott: How to Resolve Conflict with Angry Customers or Colleagues

According to a CPP global human capital study, 89% of employees let their conflicts with co-workers escalate. My guest today, Kristine Scott, is out to build a future where the energy of conflict gets harnessed to create pro-social change, not division.

Kristine shares how she got into this work of coaching teams on how to resolve conflict and what she learned from young people on the street dealing with conflict effectively. We talk about why most of us prefer to avoid conflict and the false narrative we tell ourselves about our ability to emotionally connect. Kristine offers a 3-step formula for resolving conflict and gives examples of it in action. We also discuss how self-awareness and self-reflection are the keys to effectively handling conflict while also protecting your own mental health.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

  • Most people prefer to avoid conflict because they think they’re bad at it. We are more likely to remember the times we failed at conflict resolution, not the times we handled it successfully.
  • If there’s something that regularly gets under your skin, take a deeper look. Understand whether it is the action that is bothering you, or if it is what that action represents that is a trigger.
  • Supervisors assume the conflict is repaired more often than it is, which can lead to performance issues and tension within the organization.
  • Conflict often arises because people don’t feel heard. You can’t always solve the problem, but you can always listen with empathy and help them understand that they’re heard.

We all have our weak points about the things that really get under our skin, and we lose all objectivity. We can work on that old stuff. We can get support, do a little therapy, and come back to not be so reactive.

—  Kristine Scott

Episode References:

From Our Partner:

Download the 2024 Ninth Annual State of Workplace Empathy study from Businessolver: businessolver.com/edge

Discover more valuable content from Businessolver on The Benefits Pulse vodcast: businessolver.com/benefits-pulse

About Kristine Scott, Chief Trainer, Seattle Conflict Resolution

Kristine Scott is the founder and chief trainer for Seattle Conflict Resolution. She has taken over 20 years of lessons from high-incident social service settings and distilled truths and techniques in non-violent conflict response. What began as training for staff and volunteers became so popular she was sought out by hotels, doctors’ offices, and others. She founded the company in 2018 and is now the go-to trainer for Seattle Space Needle and Seattle Farmers Markets. Her customers return because she helps them use conflict to build loyalty through compassionate boundary setting.

As of 2024, Ms. Scott has trained over 37,000 people. She promotes a future where the energy of conflict gets harnessed to create pro-social change, not division. In addition to being a trainer, Kristine is also a regular podcast guest, and media source (USA Today).

Connect with Kristine:

Seattle Conflict Resolution: seattleconflictresolution.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kristinemariescott

Course for Customer Service professionals; Angry Customers, Happy Resolutions available at seattleconflictresolution.com

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com

PRE-SALE SPECIAL! Pre-order 1 to 99 copies of Maria’s new book, The Empathy Dilemma for your leaders, exec team, (or yourself?!) and GET 30%! bit.ly/TEDSpecialPresale Offer ends August 27, 2024!

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business.

Did you know that according to a CPP global human capital study, 89% of employees let their conflicts with coworkers escalate. Not exactly the optimal performance environment is it? My guest today is how to build a future where the energy of conflict gets harnessed to create pro social change, not division. Christine Scott is the founder and chief trainer for Seattle conflict resolution. She’s taken more than 20 years of lessons from high incident social service settings, and distilled truths and techniques in nonviolent conflict response. What began as training for staff and volunteers became so popular she was sought out by hotels, doctors offices, and other customer service organizations. Christine is now the go to trainer for Seattle Space Needle, and Seattle farmers markets as well as other customer service organizations. Her clients returned because she helps them use conflict to build loyalty through compassionate boundary setting. As of 2024, Christine has trained over 37,000 people and as a regular podcast guest and media source for publications such as USA Today. Today, Christine shares how she got into this work of coaching teams on how to resolve conflict, she shares her encounter with the Seattle fleece that showcases her long commitment to social work and counseling. Christine also shares what she learned from young people on the street for dealing with conflict effectively, we discuss why most of us prefer to avoid conflict and the false narrative we tell ourselves about our ability to emotionally connect. Christine offers a three step formula for resolving conflict, and gives examples of it in action and customer service scenarios. We also talk about how self awareness and self reflection are the keys to effectively handling conflict, while also protecting your own mental health. We talked about what your employees need after a particularly tough customer service conflict so that they can move on to serving other customers effectively. And I bet many of you are not implementing this. So lots of great useful nuggets today. Take a listen. welcome Christine Scott to the empathy edge podcast where we’re going to talk about all things conflict resolution today.

Kristine Scott  03:05

Thank you. I’m excited to be here.

Maria Ross  03:06

So tell us a little bit about your story and the wonderful story that you have to share about your interaction with the Seattle Police. That is so interesting, and instrumental to your history and your expertise and your work. But how did you come to the work of conflict resolution?

Kristine Scott  03:25

Well, there was a stormy night that I got pulled over for speeding, which is kind of a bad habit of mine. And the officer took my license and disappeared for a long time. And you know, when that happens, it’s a long time. That means you’re getting a ticket, right? Yeah. Well, he comes back and he says, You have got to be the unluckiest person I have ever met. I’m like, Yeah, because I got a speeding ticket. And he’s like, No, because you’ve witnessed one arson, and two assaults and three overdoses and domestic violence. And like he starts listing all of these things, that I realized, Oh, you’re talking about times that I’ve call 911. From the shelter that I run, you know, somebody in social services, I didn’t realize that they were keeping track of the 911. Caller, right. That’s what I just explained, like, I run this, you know, the state’s largest shelter for homeless young adults. And so we have a lot of crazy stuff that goes down. So he hands me back my license, and I got no ticket that night. Oh. And I was just like, wow, that was that was really unexpected.

Maria Ross  04:34

And so how did you get into this work of being such a, you know, you’re involved in so much almost like social work? I know. It’s not officially social work, but maybe it is. But this work of helping people in some of their worst moments. It feels like

Kristine Scott  04:47

I think, you know, we’re always drawn to the thing. That is our unresolved thing, right? Like, I grew up in a violent home. And so my unresolved thing was around power and control and how do you handle it when Things get scary, or people are using their power in a way that’s not healthy, healthy. And so I was attracted to social work. And I spent many years running nonprofits, including the shelter and group homes and meal programs. And I was constantly figuring out, like, how do I react, and I would either get way too aggressive or way too passive, and it wasn’t going great. And I started, fortunately watching young people who lived on the streets, and learning from them how they handled conflict. And they were doing much better at it than I was. Wow.

Maria Ross  05:36

Wow, that’s so interesting. We always think about helping them right. And there they are teaching you what, what was it about their ability to deal with it that you learned from?

Kristine Scott  05:48

Well, one thing that they had that I didn’t have is they had better threat assessors, right, like a lot of us, we listen to our bodies, our bodies tell us that there’s a threat to our life, we freak out. And we just assume that it really is a threat to our life, when in fact, it’s just a piece of coworker. And in fact, it’s just a boss who’s having a bad day like, like we, we internalize that alarm bell and think Oh, my God, I’m gonna die, right. And the young people who lived on the streets, their lives really were on the lines. They really had to get better threat assessors. So I watched them handle stuff without breaking a sweat, because it was just a part of their everyday existence. Wow. And

Maria Ross  06:35

so when did you start the Seattle Conflict Resolution Center?

Kristine Scott  06:39

It was after I’d been training people for my shelter, like my shoulder needed to expand, we were turning people away. So I had the tough choice, though. Like, well, I don’t have a staffing budget, but I do have this capital fund. So I’m going to do these construction improvements to my shelter and use a whole bunch of University of Washington student volunteers instead of a staff team, right? Instead of paying a whole bunch of people, I’m going to rely on staff to run the state’s largest slice sleepover for homeless young people. Wow, isn’t that a great idea? I had to learn how to train college students who are the same age as our shelter guests how to conflict, because I had started to figure it out myself by then. So I started like, Well, how do I train these guys, because my staffing budget relies on this volunteer cadre. So basically, I got really good at training other people how to handle conflict, and word spread. And soon other nonprofits started reaching out to me. And soon other corporations are reaching out and said, Hey, like Seattle Space Needle was like my first customer. Can you come and train our elevator operators on how to handle conflict? So so it just grew organically? I didn’t ever set out to become the queen of conflict, because it was, you know, like, 20 years ago, my my very worst thing. Right? Right. Well, so

Maria Ross  08:00

let’s dig into that. Because I think there’s a lot of people that believe that that’s their Achilles heel is conflict resolution, they label themselves as conflict averse, or I’m not very emotionally intelligent. dealing with conflict is really hard for me. So what are those myths that keep us stuck? And actually resolving conflict and being able to move forward together?

Kristine Scott  08:23

That is a great question, Maria. And first off, I want to point out that that’s really common. There was a study done that showed 89% of employees let their conflicts with coworkers escalate, that they would rather let it get worse than handle it because they’re so afraid of conflict going poorly. Wow. Reason why we assume that we’re bad at conflict is the kind of the way our memory works. We only remember the things that don’t go well. Like, you know, if you’ve had that perfect day, do you remember that perfect day? No, you remember that sucky day, right? You remember, things suck. And unresolved conflict feels gross in your body, it you feel that lack of resolution? Hmm. But when you resolve conflict successfully, it barely makes a blip in your memory, it doesn’t get stored in your long term memory the same way that unresolved conflict does. So we walk around like with a story, right? The symbology that, oh, I’m bad at conflict. And I have no emotional awareness at all. Like, no, you’re just remembering, you know, the five times last year that that you didn’t resolve conflict, and there were probably 800 that you did.

Maria Ross  09:35

Exactly, because the ones that didn’t was what kept you up at night. Mm hmm, exactly. And so what is it about? I feel like this persona out there and I grew up in a very loud, boisterous Italian family, and we were very we were not conflict averse. But in a very, like, we’d let it all out and then it would be over and then we’d move on and being married to a British person now. was raised very differently. It stays with him. Right. He, you know, I’ve already forgotten about the thing that happened yesterday, you know, and he’s still processing it. So what is it about certain people, that they’re able seemingly to handle conflict or disagreement or tension with such grace and calm? Like, what is their secret?

Kristine Scott  10:22

Yeah, yeah, I, I’ve kind of broken, broken it down to a formula for folks, they do three things in a certain sequence, usually the conflict will get resolved. And the first thing they need to do is validate the other person, the other person is going to have some big feelings. And when we have big feelings, we feel really isolated. Having somebody else say, Wow, I’d be upset, if that happened to me, just totally takes the air out of the attention just leaves because you validated. And that’s what we all need, we need validation. If you want to validate them, then you state your boundary, I can help you with this. Like, for example, one of my clients right now has this beautiful glass gallery. So the all was hand blown, very fragile, very expensive art. And families come through this gallery with kids that are running and screaming. And you know, the people who put on the gallery displays have chosen not to put big giant signs that say, do not touch the glass out of aesthetic concerns, right? So now all of their staff have to be that person that tells them no patch the glass. And so what I what I’ve trained them to do is like, go up to them and say, oh, yeah, that’s, that’s one of my favorite pieces, I could see why you want to touch that, again, validate them, before you put the next part of the phase, which is boundary, here’s the boundary, like, I’m so sorry that you can’t touch that piece. There are some pieces in our gift shop that you can touch of that. So you’re you’re validating the thing that they want to do the emotion that that needs to like get named, then you’re setting the boundary. And then the last stage is either offer support or offer options, sometimes both, right? So so the gift gift shop is an option, right? There’s this thing you can do if you really need to touch class, you can go do it in our gift shop. Right, right? Or like, Hey, would you like to learn more about about the artist? Because I see that you’re really curious about this piece?

Maria Ross  12:37

That’s such a nice diplomatic way of saying.

Kristine Scott  12:40

Yeah, but but again, because we have this idea, like, oh, I suck at conflict, I can handle this. Like, no, no, no, we just have to do kind of like what your book talks about Maria around empathy, like, once we have that sense of ourselves, and that compassion for ourselves is so much easier to give it to somebody else. And just like, Okay, I don’t like their behavior. But I know that we all do that. I know, we all do stuff we don’t like, right. And so

Maria Ross  13:07

in that in those interactions, like being a hot headed person myself, my challenge is normally that the the instant escalation that happens in my body, and in my tone and in, like, instead of being able to ground myself and be the voice of calm, I match the person I’m dealing with what is some advice you have for people or leaders who are you know, they’re dealing with a with an upset worker, who’s, you know, I’m so mad about this new return to work policy. And obviously, you know, these three steps are great, but how do you what is the internal work that needs to be done to make sure that you have the cognitive ability, the executive functions firing, so you can do those

Kristine Scott  13:51

three steps? You’re exactly right. It’s just like CPR first aid, you cannot enter the scene. If you are not in that in that green zone and that safe like, okay, I’m okay, I know, I’m safe. I know, I’m not under attack. I know my life is not being threatened right now. Like, and that that takes some self awareness. I really like that. That’s the pillar in your new book that’s coming out that self awareness piece because yes, the first step, your last American, right, like, you know, like, Okay, I’m Maria, I’m feeling I’m feeling something about what’s going on here. I’m probably not the right person to deescalate this other folk, you know, I just have to do it for myself. First, you have to deescalate yourself first. And part of how I train people is like what are the signs of their fight flight freeze system taking over? What are some things that they can do to sidestep it taking over? And, you know, we’ve done we’ve done enough neuroscience now that we have learned that we can actually sidestep a full blown fight flight freeze takeover of our body with something as simple Let’s deep breaths, the nerve endings on the outsides of our lungs. Once they stretch out apart from each other, they actually tell your body Oh, everything’s okay. Crisis averted? And I know that sounds really hokey. Ooh, do you bros knew to do, but I swear by

Maria Ross  15:17

them? Because they does. There’s something it’s what do they call the somatic system? I don’t I’m not using the terminology correctly. But the parasympathetic nervous system, it’s it does, because we’re fighting the evolutionary instinct that’s been bred into us that the Tigers going to eat me. Exactly. When we’re in a situation where the tiger is not going to eat you. It’s just your boss telling you, you have to come into the office three days a week, like, Nobody’s life is being threatened right now. But your body doesn’t know the difference. Your brain doesn’t know the difference. And so it’s almost like we need these. I hate the word hacks. But we need these like shortcuts to, to douse water on our own innate instincts to respond in a certain way. And I think that’s the, that’s I for me, it’s the biggest challenge, I’m sure it’s a lot of the biggest challenge for people who are listening is to, how do you catch yourself in that moment, and I, the awareness does go a long way. Because if you start to feel your blood pressure going up, if you start to feel your heart hammering a little more, for me, it’s if I feel like I instantly want to jump in and correct the person. I know that that’s okay. You’re getting escalated here, like take a breath. But it doesn’t always work.

Kristine Scott  16:37

That’s where I tell people keep track of those things that get under your skin. Because that’s your body’s way of telling you. There might be something from your past that you haven’t healed. No, as a person who was raised in an explosive home. Guess who freaked out every time somebody larger than me was screaming at me. Like, I had to do some work around that.

Maria Ross  16:58

So yeah, I mean, that’s that is the thing is looking back at what, you know, like, this is such a silly example. But my empathy seems to go out the window. Sometimes when I’m in a, when I’m in a line, like a coffee shop line, or a checkout line. And my sense of, of indignation, and righteousness is just triggered when people cut the line, whether they mean to or not. And instead of my first assumption being I don’t know that they meant to do that. It’s this. I just can’t not say anything. But I’ve learned to just be like, you know, much kinder about it and be like, let’s assume the person didn’t know, because I’ve done it to where I did. I didn’t know I didn’t see the line over there. But it’s but I’ve explored that for myself of like, Why? Why do we get so mad when people cut the line? And it’s not even about them cutting the line, it actually stems back to my sense of fairness. And my sense of like, No, I’m following the rules. So other P and all of us are following the rules. Everybody should follow the rules. And so it’s just one example. But it’s looking back at like, it’s not actually the thing that’s triggering me, it’s what the thing represents. And I’m sure other people can think of examples for themselves of like, that moment, or that action that gets under their skin. Is it actually that thing that’s bothering you? Or is it what it represents?

Kristine Scott  18:22

Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely. And you do that very well.

Maria Ross  18:26

Yeah. I mean, and I know, you know, when it comes to leadership, and we’re the work environment, you know, we think, Oh, it’s work, right? It’s not personal. But those triggers abound in the workplace. And one that I know I’ve talked to a few leaders about, especially female leaders, is that they get, they get very triggered by not being understood. Like if their words are twisted, or if their words are just innocently misunderstood. It’s a trigger for them. Because when, as they were growing up, as they were coming up in the ranks, not being understood seriously was it was a sore spot for them. And so it, it could cause them to explode if they’re not careful. So I want to go on, I’m going on and on, because I love what you’re talking about. When we do deal with conflict. And we’re, we’re strong enough when we’re facing it. When we do tackle it, there’s times where it may not get better. So tell us a little bit about what happens to people after difficult conversations, especially if it didn’t go well. And we’re, you know, we’re we’re brushing up on all the tips you’re giving us we’re doing all the self awareness, but it’s not a magic bullet. It doesn’t mean the situation is going to go well or it’s going to get resolved or everybody’s going to be happy. So what do we do for ourselves post

Kristine Scott  19:44

engagement. Now, I really encourage folks that if you do have that fight, flight, freeze takeover, like if you feel all those things going on in your body, that within the next 24 hour period. I want them to do some type of physical activity, at least 10 Minutes of elevated heart rate. Studies have shown that if you don’t do that your body starts to associate the circumstances of that conflict with a threat to your life. And so you know, problems with job performance, stress related injury, and illness, all of those things will happen to you, unless you reset your body. And then all obviously, in the time that is going on, that a lot of the supervisors and managers I work with, I encourage them give people the opportunity to take a 20 minute break, so that they can fully reset. Because once that mechanism is triggered, it takes 20 minutes of no new stimulation for our parasympathetic nervous system to come back on board. Like the breathing works in the beginning, but once it’s fully gone, it won’t save you. And then the other thing I encourage them to do is do kind of an autopsy about the conflict itself. What was it about the situation that didn’t work? We all have our weak points, like we talked about the things that just really get under our skin, and we lose all objectivity around. Okay, I’m going to make a note of that, and I’m gonna work on that, like, what is it about having people not hear or understand me? That is really, really hard. You know, for example, when I was young, I had a speech impediment. So having people say, what, what did you say? Hugely triggering for me? Yeah, we, we can work on that old stuff, week weekend, get a little support, do a little therapy, and come back and kind of not be so reactive. I think that’s such

Maria Ross  21:38

an important point. Because especially with a lot of the consulting you do around helping customer service representatives, organizations, helping them deal with conflict between themselves and a customer, where you know, what’s on the line is more than just the conflict, you could lose a customer, you can lose revenue, you can, you know, get cancelled all of these things. And so, what I love about that is I don’t think that that’s something that a lot of managers or leaders think about is giving them that, that rest moment, after a particularly tense, conflict with a customer, they just want them to sort of like, okay, shake it off, keep going, especially if you’re in like a phone support center, or something like that, where you know, it’s okay, we got just got to take the next call, we got to take the next call. But I think that that’s a really important point. And I just want to underline that. Because if you want your people to be operating at peak performance, and you don’t want that one conflict, to negatively impact the rest of the customers that that person is dealing with for the rest of the day, it’s in your best interest to just take 10 minutes, 20 minutes and give that person a break. And so what about a leader? Let’s like I know, again, a lot of your work is around helping with conflict between customers and workers. But if you’re a leader, and you have a conflict with someone that you manage, and supervise, or vice versa, you have a conflict with your manager or supervisor, what is the best way forward? On, you know, let’s say you do kind of go to your corners and have a timeout, what’s the best way forward to come back and repair, especially when there’s a power dynamic? Right.

Kristine Scott  23:18

One thing to notice about the power dynamic is the data suggests that people who are the supervisor, assume that conflict is repaired more often than it actually is. So, so know that if you are dealing with a conflict with a report to your bias may be working against you. And that person may not feel resolved, and is much more likely to talk badly about you and have other performance issues, but not actually tell you that the conflict is not resolved. So I really encourage folks like if you feel any kind of tension with somebody that reports to you pull in us maybe a second set of eyes, somebody you trust around, hey, what do you notice about so and so and, you know, this is how our last conversation went? Do you think I’m missing something like ombudsman room safe reporting, all those other things that you can add to the situation. And when it’s your own supervisor, I really encourage people to manage up as best as they can. And just keep on being an advocate for like the the language I like to use is our working relationship is gold. We need to really honor and support and treat it well. And I see this as a threat to our working relationship being healthy. This this this you know, this seems like a minor topic, but it really is important to me like I had the last time I was a director, I had somebody who really wanted a stand up desk. And my little brain couldn’t figure out how to fit a stand up desk in in the small office that he was in and I Just after he brought it up the third time I realized, you know, this, me figuring out isn’t isn’t as important as me hearing what he needs and saying, Yes, I will, I will buy it, you figure out how to make it work. Right. Right. Yeah, he

Maria Ross  25:16

just wanted to be heard. I mean, that’s part of it. It’s I feel like there are so many things. I mean, some things are genuine conflicts and points of contention. But a lot of these things happen simply because someone doesn’t feel heard, and then escalates. And it again, as I always say, it doesn’t mean you have to do what the person asks or says, it’s just about being able to listen and help them feel heard. And I know that that’s hard for people because they go, Okay, so I’m, I’m listening, but I’m never gonna give the person what they want. So why bother? And so what would you say to that in terms of like helping it, helping avoid an escalation or avoid a conflict? Now, what if that is the response from an executive, your coaching or a leader your coaching?

Kristine Scott  25:57

What do you say to them? No, can be the the most connective message you have to give to somebody if you do it? Well. Right? You say? So what I’m what I’m hearing you say, and I would feel that way to who? And here’s my experience of when we’ve tried that, and why I don’t want us to go down that path. And I really honor that you trusted me with this. And I really honor that you’re trying to make improvements around here. So if we can’t make this improvement, are you interested in some other projects that are on my long to do list of things that need to change around here? You know, like, there’s, there’s ways to say no, yes, yes, absolutely. And folks feel heard they feel seen they feel validated. Yeah. And

Maria Ross  26:43

I think that’s where empathy comes in. It’s, again, educating people that empathy doesn’t mean that everyone’s going to be happy. Right? So it’s a method of communicating and connecting. And the goal of it is not conversion, if the goal of it is not to roll over and give the other person what they want. But there’s a way that you can communicate that information, even when it’s a no even when it’s a tough decision, even when it’s hard. Because you’re you’re thinking through what that person might need in that moment. And that is actually our job as leaders, you know, a lot of leaders say, Well, that takes so much time I’ve just got so much to do, and we just got to get going after I don’t have time to coddle it’s not coddling if it’s about creating stronger connections, that’s actually the job of leading.

Kristine Scott  27:24

Yeah, you’re exactly right. Love it.

Maria Ross  27:27

Okay. So, you know,

Kristine Scott  27:29

you always talk about the optimistic

Maria Ross  27:31

view of with a bit of skill, this will always get better, right, and you will get better at helping resolve conflict. So can you share a story with us about an executive that you worked with? And tell us about that? That growth?

Kristine Scott  27:46

That happened? Yeah, I think the first time I was pulled in to a union team, the manager there was pretty burned out. And just act really beleaguered like are the Union wants this and don’t want dad and did it? Any? Yeah, kind of deter

Maria Ross  28:08

just right. Tired and bitter. Yeah.

Kristine Scott  28:13

He did not want to be involved in the details of the SOPs that I set up with this particular team. So I started working with the team and I started like crystallizing what their, what the chips were, to the procedures around their workplace. And they had some really great ideas and some really creative thinking. They just needed a fresh venue. And so when I came back to the manager and said, So what they what they’re saying is this, and what I recommend is that, like, I didn’t have any new ideas, I just basically regurgitated what the team had said, all of a sudden, I saw optimism, and I saw this sense of like, oh, oh, and then the next time I worked with the T team, he sat in on the on the meeting. And then the next time there was more of a lean in, and finally I didn’t even need to be in the room to get with them. Because they were both co creating, they can restore this the sense of balance between him as the guy who held the resources, and they as the ones who, you know, had to make all this work. So what do you think, catalyze that, I think in that case, it was just a fresh perspective. Right? said like, wow, what you’re saying is really valid. Oh, yeah. Well, what you’re seeing is really felt like

Maria Ross  29:38

it was a translator, almost. Yeah. Or mediator? Uh huh.

Kristine Scott  29:40

And also, I brought in some perspective around, like what we talked about earlier around our biology and how, when things don’t go well, we assume really bad things about each other. And some of the assumptions that we’re making about management oh, you should have heard that they said about the management when he was not in the room. Like, I let them vent without giving it credibility. Like it’s okay to like bad mouth because I’m just I’m just this outsider right here underneath that is that you’re really invested in this change or this happening. Hmm. So again, like a little bit inflation, a little bit of entry into.

Maria Ross  30:22

Yeah, I mean, I know you know when I worked in corporate those times I’ve actually told bosses of mine that the moment I stop being the squeaky wheel is the moment I’m disengaged, like the only reason I’m bringing these things up and pointing out how things can get better is because I care. Right? And if I stopped doing that, that’s actually when you need to get worried. Mm hmm. You know, granted, I probably could have done it in a better way. But you know, the point was, I think, sometimes we label these things as Oh, they’re disgruntled, or they’re they’re ungrateful. Titled, yeah, all the things we hear, especially about different generations. But there’s motive behind that. And that’s where empathy can really come in of like, are you actually trying to see what is not being said? Or what is the intent or the the context of the person? That’s not actually the words they’re saying, or the idea they’re sharing, it’s something else under the covers? And that that does take time, and it does take effort, but it’s worth

Kristine Scott  31:25

it? It’s definitely worth it. And Bill Gates said, your most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning. 100% Yeah,

Maria Ross  31:36

I look at it as free market research. You know, and I’m gonna put a link in the show notes. I mentioned him in the empathy edge, Jay Baer, who’s a marketing and customer expert, he wrote a fantastic book. This is not quite quite the same thing. But it’s called Hug Your Haters, which is around what do you do with negative reviews with negative feedback from customers? And our instinct is to call them all trolls. Right? They’re not I mean, most of the time, if people are taking the time to complain about something, it’s something pretty important. It’s something that has impacted them, like, we know a troll when we see it, but someone complaining about the service they got at a restaurant. It’s not a troll there. They’re venting there. They feel like they were not appreciated. And so he advises, Pat, first of all, how you respond to that says something about your brand, especially if it’s in a public forum, if it’s on Yelp, or on the internet, but also, there’s gold in in that feedback. And yes, maybe it was an outlying one time that thing happened. But chances are, it

Kristine Scott  32:41

wasn’t. No. Yeah. So okay,

Maria Ross  32:45

so as we wrap up, I just want to hear you again, you work with a lot of customer service organizations, I’m putting you on the spot here for a second, because I know we didn’t necessarily plan on talking about this. But what is one of your biggest aha was for helping a customer service rep. Or a customer success rep or whatever, you know, someone dealing with an angry customer. I know, he gave us the three step method, which is great. But what’s another story or again, the word hack that you love that seems to work magic every time

Kristine Scott  33:15

I help them boil down? Why are they in customer service? Like you chose customer service? Because you really care about people having a good experience is my like, and usually that’s usually that’s, you know, when I’m in the room with people, that’s, you know, that’s what comes up. Yeah. And guess what, you you will stop caring, and you are going to get embittered and an embattled unless you give yourself lots and lots of grace, and really promote your own learning of round how to deal with tricky situations. Because you, your body is just not going to want to be hearing more. No. And then, you know, when I say that, I always ask like, Are there any, like people who’ve been here longer than you that you look at and say, Wow, I don’t ever want to be like so and so? Because they’re just really bitter. Like, yeah, yeah. Don’t let that happen to you. Yeah. Give give yourself permission to go on this journey around how you handle conflict, how you show up with lots of compassion for yourself and for others. And it will transform you, you will become so much better at what you do here and at life.

Maria Ross  34:30

Yeah, getting back to our purpose, right, that Northstar of like, let’s try to remember why we’re here. So, Christine, this has been such a great conversation and I don’t want to leave without telling folks about your wonderful interactive online course. angry customers happy resolutions that’s available on your website. So anyone in customer service anyone who leads a customer service or customer success team will definitely want to check that out. It’s designed for customer service as you have told me Eat, and helps them work on content. They’re weakened based on common conflict scenarios and customer service. So lots of good stuff there. Thank you for your insights today. We will have all your links in the show notes. But where is the one or two best places for folks to connect with you if they’re on the go right now?

Kristine Scott  35:21

Probably LinkedIn and you’re my website. Wonderful.

Maria Ross  35:25

And as I always like to put my little PSA for LinkedIn, if you reach out to Christine on LinkedIn, make sure you send her a note that says that you heard her on the podcast. Christine, thank you and I look forward to more collaborations with you on this topic. Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge. Remember, if you like what you heard, you know what to do, rate review and share it with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, always remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Stay well and be kind.

For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access, show notes and free resources booked me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.


Empathy Under Pressure: 2024 State of Workplace Empathy (Part 1) with Rae Shanahan

Welcome to a special episode brought to you by the great folks at Businessolver! Their annual State of Workplace Empathy Report has been my go-to for years in finding out exactly how everyone from CEOs to employees thinks and feels about empathy in the workplace. The 2024 report offers so much valuable information to help all of us navigate the new world of work.

Today, I’m honored to discuss Part 1 of Businessolver’s 9th annual State of Workplace Empathy study, Empathy Under Pressure, with Businessolver’s chief strategy officer, Rae Shanahan. We focus on laying out the context of the mental health and workplace toxicity findings, what CEOs are currently feeling, and the stigmas and barriers to empathy in the workplace.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

  • 50% of employees cited a mental health issue in the past year, and the report details about 65% of Gen Z cited a mental health issue, nearly twice the amount of Baby Boomers.
  • If we want to achieve our goals as a team, we cannot leave our humanity outside of the office.
  • Hold your ideas lightly. Things change and, when they do and you’re given new data, it’s okay to change your mind.
  • While being nice is great, you can’t “nice” your way to empathy.

Stigmas create a fear-based environment, and people cannot bring their best selves if they’re in an environment of fear.

—  Rae Shanahan

From Our Partner:

Download the 2024 Ninth Annual State of Workplace Empathy study from Businessolver: www.businessolver.com/edge

Discover more valuable content from Businessolver on The Benefits Pulse vodcast: www.businessolver.com/benefits-pulse

About Rae Shanahan, Chief Strategy Officer, Businessolver

Rae Shanahan is an experienced executive with a demonstrated history of working in the information technology and services industry. Known for her strong business development skills in coaching, sales, team building, and healthcare information technology and management, Rae brings a unique blend of strategic insight and empathetic leadership to the table. Her empathetic approach has been instrumental in nurturing the growth of Businessolver from a dozen employees to over 1,700. Rae understands the importance of empathy in fostering a collaborative and innovative work environment, ensuring culture is always first. This perspective has guided her efforts as the current Chief Strategy Officer at Businessolver and her previous role as CEO of Innovation Works, where she supported the incubation of new business strategies and opportunities. Her initiatives, including the launch of Businessolver’s Artificial Intelligence Engine, MyChoice Accounts and the Benefits Innovation Group, are all centered on delivering delight to clients and their employees, ensuring that everyone feels valued and heard.

Connect with Businessolver and Rae Shanahan:

Businessolver: businessolver.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/raeshanahan

LinkedIn:  linkedin.com/company/businessolver

Twitter:  @Businessolver

Instagram:  @Businessolver

Facebook:  facebook.com/bsolver

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com

PRE-SALE SPECIAL! Pre-order 1 to 99 copies of Maria’s new book, The Empathy Dilemma for your leaders, exec team, (or yourself?!) and GET 30%! bit.ly/TEDSpecialPresale Offer ends August 27, 2024!

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Maria Ross:

Hi, Rae, welcome to the special bonus episode of the Empathy Edge to feature Businessolver and your wonderful State of Workplace Empathy Report. Welcome to the show once again.

Rae Shanahan:

Well, hello, Maria. I’m glad to be here.

Maria:

So we know each other, we’ve known each other a few years and have never met in person, but I followed your work, obviously cited a lot of Businessolver’s findings in my books, in my new book, The Empathy Dilemma. You’ve been doing this report for quite a few years, and we also know each other through a wonderful group of thought leaders called the Empathy Super Friends, where we’re really trying to help leaders and organizations embrace the power of empathy to make the workplace better for everyone.

But before we kind of get into the meat of this interview, and I should let listeners know this is going to be a two-part bonus episode. So it’s going to be fantastic to really dissect the 2024 State of Workplace Empathy Report. 

But before we dive in, just to level set, can you tell us what Businessolver’s definition of empathy is and how it applies to the workplace?

Rae:

Sure, I think that what we use in the survey is it’s the ability to understand and or experience the feelings or perspectives of another. 

And I would even add on to that part of the way Brene Brown defines empathy is it’s without judgment. So, it’s understanding the perspectives of the other person without judgment so that we can be present and understand. Because don’t we all want to feel heard and understood?

Maria:

100%. And as we talk about on this show a lot, there’s so many benefits that organizations receive when they create an empathetic environment, when leaders and colleagues can be empathetic to each other. And what I love about your report is it really gives the data around what people are thinking and feeling in the workplace, what ways they can do their best work, and to really give leaders a guide. 

So, I want to get into part one of the report, titled, Empathy Under Pressure. And I know the findings were really impactful to me in my work. And I feel like every leader in an organization needs to know about these findings. So how and why is empathy under pressure according to your findings?

Rae:

Well, you know, we do this every year right around January, February of each year. And, you know, if we think back to what was going on earlier this year, you know, we’re dealing with heightened political, social state. There was still pressure for people to be returning to the office, you know, and a side note, I hate it when they say people say ‘return to work’ because that’s meaning that if people work from home, it’s not real work, right? We’ll talk more about that. But.

Maria:

Yeah, right.

Rae:

But I think somewhat like 65% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. it’s hard on businesses and, you know, CEOs have to run a business. And I think sometimes they confuse running a business, but they can still be empathetic and run a business and deliver for their shareholders.

Maria:

Yeah, it’s definitely both and, not either or. And so where do you see that pressure coming from?

Rae:

Yeah, you know, I think it’s the pressure to perform. And if we think about it from a CEO perspective, which I think is where we saw a lot of the numbers this year really, I think that we really want to spend some time on, is if you think about CEOs by who they are, they’re on top because they’ve performed. And they have been able to fix it. They’ve been able to take care of business and they’ve been right. 

So, it’s really, I think sometimes it’s hard for CEOs to take a step back and be a little vulnerable and model some of the empathetic behaviors.

Maria:

Yeah. And you know, there’s a changing workplace culture paradigm. There’s a changing leadership paradigm. And I have a lot of empathy for those leaders who are sort of like, wait, what? Like now the rules are changing on me and all these things that I was told my entire career that would get me to success, you know, I’m being told, no, I should get personal at work, and I should get to know people. And back in the, back in the day, I was told not to do those things. 

So, I have a lot of empathy for them where we’re kind of going, okay, now that you’re at the top, we’re going to change the rules of the game.

And it’s good that we’re changing those rules, but they need to get their footing a little bit there. 

So, speaking of that, on the other end of the spectrum is the younger people entering the workforce and Gen Z. So, let’s talk a little bit about the Gen Z findings of the report. You mentioned 50% of employees cite a mental health issue in the past year. And the report goes into detail about 65% of Gen Z cited a mental health issue, nearly twice the amount of baby boomers, which is huge. And Gen Z is also the most likely to say the workplace is toxic. 

So, what do you make of those findings?

Rae:

Well, having a Gen Z son and hanging out with some of those Gen Zs, what I love about it is they’re just very open and they’re not afraid to say what’s on their mind. They’re not afraid to share. I think that we have a lot of sharing. I’m one year away from being a baby boomer. So, Maria, when you talk about, you know, the difference between baby boomers. Yeah, there was a time where, my gosh, would I ever admit a weakness? Would I ever actually show vulnerability and that I was nervous or concerned or anything like that or share a mental health issue? 

And so, I think it’s just a very distinct line that they grew up being in a very social world where everybody knows everything. I think we felt that and kind of felt that in dealing with Gen Zs, but the results really did back that up.

Maria:

Yeah. I mean, they’ve grown up with transparency and vulnerability, as you said, and I think that’s kind of getting back to the rules have changed. Because I’m Gen X and we were told not to. We were told to pretend we had all the answers and to do things ourselves and to just put our heads down and get the work done. No matter what we were feeling that day, right? People didn’t care about, and not for any bad reason. was just, you don’t bring that into the workplace kind of a situation.

And luckily, we’ve started to realize that actually you can’t just park your humanity at the door when you go to the office. So we have to make room for that and really understand if we want to achieve our goals, if we want to actually get work done and be high performing. it’s not just about coddling, as a lot of people like to say. 

Rae:

Right. Right.

Maria:

So let’s circle back to your CEO findings, which were very alarming. And I love this quote from one of the CEOs you interviewed.

They said, ‘I do have a life outside of work. They only see me in one thing. I would like to be seen as a bigger person. I work really, really long hours and I would like them to know that I’m more than just a CEO. I’m a father, I’m a husband, I’m a fisherman, I’m a shitty golfer.’ 

What do you think is happening with CEOs?

Rae:

Wow. Well, I happen to be married to one, so I have a little perspective I can potentially share. But they’re under just tremendous pressure to keep their orgs running, keep running lean to deliver for their shareholders. And what I think is enlightening is between that quote and then also for the first time we had a, I think more than half of the CEOs have said that they had a mental health issue and that’s up 24 points in over a year. 

So, when I saw it, when I first saw that, was like, Whoa. And then I said, you know what? This is great. What this is telling me is that by that number of people expressing as a CEO that they’ve had a mental health issue, think we’re making progress on seeing some more vulnerability. 

And because, you know, anytime I’m a big believer before you can have behavioral change, you first got to accept something, acknowledge it before you can start to have change. 

So, when I saw that number, I thought, wow, an increase of 24 points means that we’ve either we’ve made some progress on at least accepting that its thing, that its a real thing. And so now hopefully we can start to make some progress. And I think that’s an important step in bringing empathy into the workplace for those CEOs.

Maria:

Well, and know you and I have talked about this, that I don’t know that it’s actually, I mean, it probably has increased given all the issues you named earlier about the current environment we’re in. But I just, like you, I feel like actually it’s more people are admitting it. Like maybe they always were suffering from it, but you weren’t supposed to admit it in the workplace. 

And so to your point, I think it is very encouraging that, you know, the first step in recovering and healing and getting past something is admitting there’s a problem. And I like that we’re, like that Gen Z is pushing us to be more transparent and open about those things, right? 

Rae:

Right? Maybe. Hey, that’s a positive. I like it. I like it. Yes, yes.

Maria:

Yeah, yeah. And so, and it doesn’t mean everything falls apart and we stop producing, we stop being efficient, we stop, you know, all of these things. It just means now we can recognize and admit the elephant in the room, and then we can figure out a way to get beyond it.

I love that. 

Rae:

I like it. Yes, yes.

Maria:

All right. So your study also found a relationship between mental issues and workplace toxicity. And I have a few things to say about workplace toxicity, but can you tell us more about that? What is that link?

Rae:

Well, I mean, it’s kind of logical, right? If a toxic workplace where there’s fear in the workplace, there’s fear of retribution, there’s, you don’t have your, it’s not a safe psychological environment. I would expect that there would be more mental health issues if they cite, right, a toxic workplace. 

Maria:

Mm -hmm.

Rae:

So, I’d love to hear, I know you’ve written books and you’ve done a lot, you know, really about that toxicity. So, I’d love to hear what you have to say, Maria.

Maria:

Yeah, I mean, it’s just they go hand in hand. And I think we underestimate the personal mental health toll that a tough workplace can have on someone. And as someone who has worked under two psychologically abusive managers, and I don’t use that term dramatically, it impacted every aspect of my life. It impacted my health. It impacted my sleep. It impacted my mood and emotions and my desire to engage, my desire to actually do my best work in those environments. 

And what those managers were trying to do, they were trying to get the best work out of me, but they were doing it in a way where it was impossible for a human to deliver their best work in that environment, right? 

And I think that’s what we’re learning more of is that, cognitively, like brain science tells us our brains shut down, our ability, our executive functions, our ability to innovate and create and collaborate and think is impacted when we’re living in fear or we’re living or working in an environment that doesn’t feel safe for us. 

And so that is actually the opposite of what a manager should want. You want your people at their best, at their sharpest, at their most creative so that everyone can get their bonus next year. And so, I think that really calling that out, in which the report does a great job of showing that corollary, is that the ways that we think we’re getting the most out of people are actually hurting our organizations, not helping. 

So, love that. 

Now, do you think that that spike in mental health issues and that naming of the workplace as toxic is also related to the return to office push? Do you think there’s a relationship there?

Rae:

I mean, it certainly could be. If people were functioning well, working remotely, they’re getting their jobs done and delivering, telling them that they weren’t, by saying we need to return to the office means that we can’t trust you as an adult to continue to do your work. 

And I have to say, again, from our organization, we were a absolute ‘be in the office all the time’ company. It took an act of something for our CEO to approve people in a non-sales job to work remotely. 

And I’ll tell you what, you know, one of the things that I think is so important for CEOs, I mean, in all of us in general, but is the concept of holding your ideas lightly. Things can change. When proven data, when given data points, when, you know, it’s okay to say ‘I changed my mind.’

Right? And, you know, five years ago, I didn’t like broccoli, and you know, I like it again, you know, and, and we, we, we can’t be so hard on people for changing their minds. 

So, where I was going with that is, you know, once we, as an organization had, you know, a year or two under our belt of working remotely, the data points showed that our employees were more engaged. We had lower employee turnover. We were able to hire a more diverse workforce. We had a higher, what we call pulse score and delivering to our clients.

You know, our CEO said, you know what? I was wrong before and, and we’re going to stay a completely remote environment. 

And I think that more times that CEOs can be okay with changing direction, admitting that, ‘Hey, this was, this was, I wasn’t thinking about this,’ right. It’s part of showing that vulnerability, which then can help an organization embrace that and really eliminate some of the fear.

Maria:

Yeah, that resilience and that adaptability is huge. And we saw that people were able to innovate and perform when they worked remotely. Maybe not in every single 100% of the circumstances. It depends on your job, right? But then to expect people to immediately go back is like, well, wait a minute. I see that there’s another way to do this. I see that there’s another way for me to deliver for the organization. 

And I think a lot of it is the discomfort of leaders in leading in that environment. When they had to, they had to, because it was a crisis. It was emergency. Everyone was under lockdown. But now that they have a choice, some of them are going back to what they know, which is the status quo. It’s like, I only know how to lead people when I can see them all under one roof. And that’s what I mean about the unlearning, the thing that it’s like, but it was always this way.

And that resilience is really gonna help organizations perform and lead in the market if they can understand that the needs of their people have changed. And it’s not about them demanding something unreasonable. It’s that they’ve seen a way to work. They accomplished it. They did it that way. And it’s like, hey, we know this works now. So, I think that’s so important. I thought it was really interesting about CEOs.

And, I thought it was really interesting about CEOs, 80% of them say that being empathetic, okay, and you know this is like my hot spot, right? Being empathetic means being nice to others all the time versus 55% of employees and 62% of HR. And this quote was great: ‘I thought empathy was sending flowers when someone was sick, doing something along those lines, more sympathy than empathy.’ 

And you know my rant about empathy is not about being nice. So, it kind of begs the question, and I think I know the answer, do you believe that most CEOs understand what empathy is and what it isn’t?

Rae:

I don’t, I don’t. And it really starts with having a common language. An organization needs to have a common language and common definitions of things like empathy, feedback. And I can’t believe that even in this day that there’s that hybrid percentage that talk about being nice. 

I think over the last three years, and you’re one of them, there have been over 300 books published on empathy. I mean, it’s definitely something that’s out there. And I think there’s some CEOs that really grasp it. But it shouldn’t be this hard to be able to pause, listen, and appreciate where someone’s coming from.

Maria:

Right.

And still be able to make tough decisions while you do that. I have often said it’s a mindset. It’s taking the other person’s perspective, seeing things through their perspective, but it doesn’t mean you change your mind. It doesn’t mean you change the business decision. It doesn’t mean that you avoid tough conversations like, you know, difficult performance reviews. 

Rae:

Right.

Maria:

It just means it’s your way of operating with someone and your way of interacting with someone. And it’s not enough to be nice. Because as you’ve always heard me say someone could bake really good cookies and bring them to the office, but it doesn’t mean they see my point of view. And it doesn’t mean they’re with me in, you know, what do I need to be successful? What do I need to feel heard? 

So, while being nice is great, we can’t just like nice our way to empathy, right? And so I feel like there’s also that stigma around, ‘Well, I’m just not overly emotional’ or ‘I’m not touchy feely,’ which again, I’m out there doing workshops and trainings, you’re out there with the report talking about that, that’s not what we’re saying empathy is. 

But given that stigma, or speaking of stigmas I should say, a strong mental health stigma also exists, according to the report. And the study showed that CEOs (81%), HR (72%), and employees (675) all agree that companies view someone with mental health issues as weak or a burden. So what do you think are some of the key things driving those stigmas?

Rae:

That people are perceived as being weak, they’re a burden, they are a pushover. And I think that’s really, really unfortunate. Just because I have a mental health issue doesn’t mean that I can’t still be a very productive employee.

It should not hold people back. The same reason is just because I’m not working in an office and I can’t interact with a senior executive doesn’t mean that I can’t still be a great leader within the organization. So, it’s disappointing to hear that or understand that some people feel that empathy doesn’t have a place in the workplace. hopefully we can both be changing this.

Maria:

Yeah, absolutely. Again, it’s that both and, and really, I think a lot of it is misunderstanding of what mental health issues are, just like it’s about a misunderstanding of what empathy actually is. And I think once people get educated on those actual definitions and what they mean, and as they get exposed to more people that are, whether it’s people with mental health issues that are still performing at amazing levels, or whether it’s leaders that are highly empathetic, but also highly ambitious and highly successful, that will hopefully change those stigmas to say, can be both and.

Rae:

Yeah, we really need to get rid of the, I think that the stigmas create a fear -based environment and people cannot be their best selves if they’re in a fear, an environment of fear.

Maria:

Yeah. And so do you have some tips on what employers can do to break those stigmas?

Rae:

I mean, it’s going to sound so simple, Maria, and I’m sure you can add on to it. 

Maria:

And hard at the same time.

Rae:

But it’s about being authentic. It’s about being real. It’s about how I started this with adding on to our definition of empathy, of things without judgment. So, one of the things in the study employs value in open door policy. An open door policy means that there’s a two-way street, that you can listen as well as provide feedback. And I think the sooner we can grasp that people want to bring their whole selves to work, that they come from different perspectives, is the way that we can break down some of those stigmas.

Maria:

Right, and even your story about Businessolver itself, being resilient and listening to people, goes a long way to creating that interaction and that dialogue and that listening so that we get to know people and understand how they work best.

Rae:

Yeah, yeah. 

I mean, using that concept that I said about holding our ideas lightly, keeping an open mind, being able to appreciate where people are coming from can go a long way toward helping people feel heard in the end. 

Again, employees, clients, you know, people, they want to feel heard and, empathy I think is a key way to be able to do that.

Maria:

Absolutely. And I know in this conversation, we’ve only scratched the surface of the findings of the report, but we’re going to pick up next month with this bonus episode and actually talk about a game plan to put empathy into action. 

So, folks will want to tune into that second bonus episode. We’re going to dive into how organizations can really create more empathy. What are the things they can do?

I just, this is so much great information and I hope people will check out the report for themselves because there’s so much more goodness in there. We’ve run out of time today, but next month, I’m, as I said, I’m hosting you again. 

And I just want to thank people for listening to this bonus episode and encourage you if you are listening to tune into more content from Businessolver and the work they’re doing, how they’re using their technology to create empathetic environments in organizations, and also listen to their vodcast, Benefits Pulse, which can be found at Businesssolver.com/benefits-pulse. So that’s, that will be in the show notes as always. and you can also stay in touch by signing up for email with business solver or following them on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram to get the latest episode information for their vodcast, Benefits Pulse. 

Thank you so much, Rae, for your time today and your insights. And thank you, everyone, for listening to this bonus episode of the Empathy Edge. Remember, if you like what you heard, rate and review it, share it with a friend or colleague. And until next time and next month with Rae, remember that cashflow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.

Rae:

Thank you, Maria.


August Hot Take: Joy as a Performance Catalyst

Only 1 month away from the birthday of The Empathy Dilemma! I am so excited to share with you the last pillar today – joy. What the heck does joy have to do with empathy or high performance? Well, joy is where many leaders get stuck. When we talk about joy at work, it means ensuring people enjoy their work, encouraging work friendships, and creating a thriving culture, even when the work itself is challenging. Today, I break down how joy benefits teams and leaders, ways you can incorporate intentional joy into your organization every day, and give key strategies for finding success in your empathetic joy journey. 

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

  • Joy in the workplace does not mean following your bliss at every moment. It means ensuring people enjoy their work, encouraging work friendships, and creating a thriving culture, even when the work itself is challenging.
  • Learn improv skills to help teams collaborate in virtually any environment. They teach you how to think on your feet, listen well, pass the ball, and even laugh at unexpected outcomes that lead to innovation.
  • Team building, when done properly, can be a source of joy and can transform interpersonal dynamics for the better when your internal culture is already serving the needs of your people.

“The ability to laugh at ourselves and find humor in tough situations is a sure sign of resilience, which is just what healthy teams need – things can and will go wrong. But when we stop taking ourselves so seriously, we can engage our prefrontal cortex to problem solve more effectively.”

—  Maria Ross

Episode References: 

The Empathy Edge podcast: Rebecca Friese: How to Build a “Good” Culture: https://red-slice.com/the-empathy-edge/rebecca-friese-how-to-build-a-good-culture/ 

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com

PRE-SALE SPECIAL! Pre-order 1 to 99 copies of Maria’s new book, The Empathy Dilemma for your leaders, exec team, (or yourself?!) and GET 30%! https://bit.ly/TEDSpecialPresale Offer ends August 27, 2024!

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the August hot take with me your host Maria Ross, can you believe we are a month away from the birthday of the empathy dilemma how successful leaders balanced performance people and personal boundaries, it hits shelves, September 10, designed to help leaders like you dedicated to people centered practices, get the best performance possible, and balance the demands of the business with the needs of your people. And I am so excited to share it with you. And if you’ve been with me, you know, I’ve been devoting a hot take episode in the months leading up to launch to one of the five core pillars of effective empathetic leaders outlined in the book. Because the reality is that we want a more human centered workplace culture, but we have to actually get work done. And you can do both. You can be empathetic and high performing empathetic and accountable. Both and not either or so today we’re diving into the last pillar, pillar five, joy, probably my most head turning one. What the heck does Joy have to do with empathy or high performance quickly followed by I’m awkward and not that funny. But before we dive into the last pillar, I have one last reminder about my special preorder price discount because it’s ending August 27. Purchase one to 99 copies at porch light my amazing bulk distributor and get 30% off until August 27. Order your copies now submit your receipt to get special presale offers, I’ll put the links in the show notes. And those presale offers include an exclusive invite to a VIP launch event online, I could maybe crash your next meeting for an empathy discussion. Or you can enjoy discounted workshops or talks for a limited time, just go to bit.ly/empathy presale, and I will put that link in the show notes. So as I’ve mentioned before, this book is the direct result of all the feedback I’ve gotten from leaders actually leaders and people at all levels in the organization. From the keynotes that I’ve done from the leadership trainings that I’ve done, from the company ERG talks, and hundreds of energy interviews on this podcast. And they all say many of them say I should say that they’re on board with this. But here is where empathetic leader is leadership is challenging. Here’s where I get stuck. And that’s usually due to the either or thinking I mentioned earlier. So that’s where the five pillars come in. They are common traits and behaviors across the successful empathetic leaders I’ve interviewed spoken to trained, advised studied. It’s how I see them balancing people performance and personal boundaries with such grace and dexterity. So joy is the fifth and final pillar of effective and empathetic leadership. So let’s dig into it. Joy, what is joy? What are we talking about? When we talk about joy at work, it means ensuring people enjoy their work, encouraging work friendships, and creating a thriving culture, even when the work itself is challenging. I’m going to talk about this more later. It doesn’t mean every second of every work day you are doing something you love, you are following your bliss. That’s not what we’re talking about here. Why is joy important? A joyful work culture breeds trust to collaborate, innovate and take risks. It empowers people to have each other’s backs. Multiple studies have shown that when people enjoy their work, it leads to lower rates of turnover, higher productivity and engagement, increased company profits. Ooh, that sounds good, and loyalty to the employer. Now we all know we that we feel lighter and more buoyed by a work environment that we like going back to it’s basic common sense. I’m going to show up if I like being there mentally and physically. And if I enjoy my colleagues and feel safe and motivated in my environment, my work will reflect that. Now again, Joy does not mean every moment of work is joyful. I mean, I don’t particularly find joy in client crisis or invoicing or budget spreadsheets. but actually some of you might, joy or levity or camaraderie, as part of the empathetic culture equation means I can find joy in the work, even when the work itself is not joyful, as it will inevitably be at certain points, or they wouldn’t call it work. So what does Joy have to do with empathy? You may be thinking, well, when we create a joy filled environment, people can relax, be themselves and share themselves as human beings. This leads to better understanding and collaboration. If I get to know you through joy, I can understand where you’re coming from. I can forgive your bad days, and you can forgive mine. We can learn to listen and seek common ground because we have shared positive experiences, all the ingredients of an empathetic culture. So how does Joy benefit leaders? So many ways, Joy reduces stress, we can show up and laugh, smile bring a little levity to what can be hard work. And as many of us know, happy team members are easier to lead and fun environments foster trust and collaboration that breeds innovation and high performance. Now, I have to pause and give a caveat here. We’re not talking about what my good friend Rebecca Frese of Flynn consulting calls, calls fungineer ing. That is when you just pull out the foosball tables and the free beer on Fridays, and expect that to solve all your engagement problems. Those things are fun, they can be fun to some people, not everyone. But we’re not talking about just throwing those perks at people and leaving it as at that. If there’s no levity and joy in the way we interact with each other, if the culture itself doesn’t feel psychologically safe, because there’s no joy than all the foosball tables in the world won’t save you. And something I’ve seen time and time again throughout my long career is that I can do great work within even dismal overall corporate environments. If my immediate team, the people I work with day in and day out, create a joyful atmosphere. I’m also thinking about particular projects I worked on that were hard ruling, but made better and more memorable and more successful. As a result of joy being added to the mix. I share one of these great stories about one of the hardest projects in my career of global multi city roadshow and how to this day we all laugh and smile about it because we made time for intentional Joy along the way. So the million dollar question, how can you incorporate more joy in your team and workplace culture? Well, the first strategy is to find and encourage humor. The ability to laugh at ourselves and find humor in tough situations is a sure sign of resilience, which is just what healthy teams need, things can and will go wrong. But when we stop taking ourselves so seriously, we can engage our prefrontal cortex to problem solve more effectively. No, you don’t have to be a comedian or even for set, but letting people know it’s okay to laugh, share memes or talk about the latest celebrity gossip while getting work done. All of that goes a long way to making work a place we want to be. Some great examples are in the book about how some leaders allow moments to organically arise, and the team turns those into inside jokes or casual rituals. The next strategy is learn improv skills to nurture creativity and trust. Improv best practices can help teams collaborate in virtually any environment, learning how to think on your feet, listen well and pass the ball. And yes even laugh at the outcomes can unleash trust that leads to innovation. The next strategy, encourage workplace friendships. Now, this is my favorite as someone who has met some of my lifelong best friends at work, and also my husband, the old rules about your work self and your personal self. And I’m using air quotes here that you can’t see, have gone out the window. We are who we are, and we bring who we are to work. I’m not saying let it all hang out or act crassly, but it’s okay to get personal, it should even be encouraged. Mountains of research indicate that having friends in the workplace doesn’t only boost job satisfaction and performance. It also improves wellness. It’s linked to a lower risk of burnout, improved mental health, and maybe even a longer lifespan. According to studies conducted across Europe and Israel. As a leader. It’s your role to foster a culture of warmth and connection so your team members know that work friendships are encouraged. The next strategy make meaningful team building a priority. Okay, so one time long ago, I joined a rather soulless tech firm, drab brown cubicles, high walls and its share of quirky personnel. Ladies, and it truly channeled the movie Office Space. If you haven’t seen it, go see it right away. When if you want to lessen and joyless work environments, because in my first week, everyone was dragged to the conference room to sing Happy Birthday to an executive, and it was utterly depressing. No one wanted to be there. And I bet you’re thinking of a required happy hour, or maybe a ropes course, where you felt the same way. Team building has gotten a bad rap over the years as a cheesy forced way to forge bonds. But when it’s done thoughtfully, it can totally transform interpersonal dynamics for the better. Before you pursue team building. Make sure that your internal culture is already serving the needs of your people. Team building should be a source of shared joy, not a bandage slapped onto a festering cultural issue. Find ways to get everyone involved in suggesting activities, doing community service projects, and ensuring that a variety of options are accessible to everyone, regardless of level ability, neurodiversity, whether they have to get home to kids or not. Or maybe they’re recovering alcoholics. When you can tie team building to your company mission. That is the best experience for everyone to forge bonds and get to know each other outside of work. As I wind down on sharing the high level five pillars of effective empathetic leadership. I would also like to make something else crystal clear. These pillars are not the sole responsibility of the leader. It is not all on your shoulders to build up the pillars of self awareness, self care, clarity, decisiveness and joy. These are pillars you can introduce, model, practice, and cultivate the environment. But share the load with your team. Have them make suggestions, take on aspects that may be a challenging blind spot for you, and practice this with each other. I would hate for leaders to think I’m just adding more to their burden. When we talk about the five pillars that ensure effective empathetic leadership. Yes, we’re talking about your own personal pillars. But the team pillars can and should be strengthened and upheld by everyone involved them in the process. Be transparent about what you’re trying to do and work on. Let them play a role so they have ownership and engagement. And when you do that, you’ll nurture an empathetic environment that flows in both directions. Now to better understand these deceptively simple strategies in detail, please check out the empathy dilemma for stories from leaders and actionable tactics. To put each of these strategies into practice. These five pillars will transform how your team engages, performs, innovates delivers for you and your customers. Remember to check out more about the book and the link to the presale bonuses at the empathy dilemma.com Thank you so much for being here with me to review the heartaches of the five pillars. I truly hope you will check out the book, leverage it, use it with your team, enable yourself to take care of yourself while also leading other people. This has been such a pleasure to present these five pillars as a sneak peek for you over the course of the last few months. And again, check out the book and grab your copy today. Until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care, and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Safaa Charafi: Spatial Justice and Building Inclusive Cities

What are inclusive cities? How can we shape our cities to be more inclusive for individuals and organizations? Too often, we take things for granted when designing cities and don’t realize how they actually may not work for many of our citizens. Whether it’s public transport, green spaces, or even how we decide what to plow first after a snowstorm – there are perspectives we don’t consider in our very male-focused, majority group-biased urban planning processes. 

Today, my guest is Safaa Charafi, an architect, urbanist, and founder of Urban Inclusion. With over 10 years of experience in her field, Safaa shares valuable insights on gender-inclusive urban practices. We talk about why empathy is a pillar in building inclusive cities.  Safaa shares how she ended up in this niche field and how our cities fail us – particularly women and marginalized communities. She defines spatial justice and how it is linked to social justice. You’ll also learn about some wonderful concepts you may never heard of, such as feminist cities, the right to the city, and even cities for kids

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

  • Diversity in a decision-making group will bring better solutions to community problems. You can’t know what people need if you don’t talk to a wide group of people. 
  • Diversity is not just a trendy topic. Building a community around diversity requires learning new things and unlearning things we thought we knew.
  • Empathy is not about pleasing everybody, but about factoring their perspective into the decision-making. 

“Cities need to use empathy and rely more on listening to each other,  reflecting the needs and aspirations of their inhabitants. Cities are made for people, but also by people and that’s something we tend to forget.”

—  Safaa Charafi

Episode References: 

About Safaa Charafi: Architect Urbanist, Founder of Urban Inclusion

Safaa Charafi is an architect and urbanist and the founder of Urban Inclusion, a consulting firm at the intersection of gender, diversity, and urban development. With a strong academic background and practical qualifications, she brings over 10 years of experience to her field. Safaa’s expertise lies in social research and urban development, with a special focus on diversity, inclusion, and intersectionality. Currently, she serves as a policy officer for UNOPS, she is also a fellow of Allianz Foundation, Belgium’s 40 under 40, entrepreneur, lecturer, and speaker, sharing valuable insights on gender-inclusive urban practices.

Connect with Safaa Charafi 

Urban Inclusion: https://www.linkedin.com/in/safaa-charafi/ 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/safaa-charafi/

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com

PRE-SALE SPECIAL! Pre-order 1 to 99 copies of Maria’s new book, The Empathy Dilemma for your leaders, exec team, (or yourself?!) and GET 30%! https://bit.ly/TEDSpecialPresale Offer ends August 27, 2024!

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. What are inclusive cities? And how can we shape our cities to be more inclusive for individuals and organizations? Too often, we take things for granted and designing cities and don’t realize how they actually may not work for many of our citizens, whether it’s public transport, or green spaces, or even as you’ll learn today, how we decide what to plow first after a snowstorm. There are perspectives we don’t consider in our very male focused majority group biased urban planning processes. Today, my guest is Safa Chaffee, an architect and urbanist and founder of urban inclusion, a consulting firm at the intersection of gender diversity and urban development. With a strong academic background and practical qualifications. She brings over 10 years of experience to her field. Sophos expertise lies in social research and urban development, with a special focus on diversity, inclusion, and intersectionality. Currently, she serves as a policy officer for you knops she is also a fellow of Alliance Foundation, Belgium’s 40 under 40, entrepreneur, lecture and speaker sharing valuable insights on gender inclusive urban practices. We talk about why empathy is the pillar in building inclusive cities. And we stress that empathy does not mean we come up with solutions that will please every single person 100% of the time, because that’s just not possible. Safa shares how she ended up in this niche field, how our cities fail us, particularly women and marginalized communities, and she defines spatial justice and how it’s linked to social justice. You’ll also learn about some wonderful concepts you may have never heard of such as feminists cities, shout out to Vienna, the right to the city, and even cities for kids. This was such an interesting conversation, take a listen. Welcome Safa to the empathy edge podcast to talk about inclusive cities and the role of empathy and building them. I am so excited to have you on the show after we connected on LinkedIn.

Safaa Charafi  02:49

Thank you so much for having me, Maria. Well, so

Maria Ross  02:51

first of all, tell us about your story and your work. And how did you get to doing this work around being an architect and an urbanist? And what are you most passionate about?

03:04

Well, so

Safaa Charafi  03:06

my name is southpaw. I’m originally from Morocco, I moved to Europe to do my second master’s in urban studies. And I got to live in Vienna, in Copenhagen, in Madrid, and in Brussels for my matters. And so when I lived in Vienna, actually, I don’t know if you know that or not, but like Vienna is known to be the most feminist city in Europe. I did not know that. Yeah, it’s quite intriguing, because I’ve never heard of a feminist city back then. This was a couple of years ago, and I got to interview ever chirinos lebauer, who are at the head of the cloud, and before, which is actually the translated in German it translated to women’s office kinda. And they’re basically the ones who implemented what we call gender mainstreaming in urban development projects, and policymaking in order to make the three more included from a gender perspective. So what gave birth to this concept of femininity? And yeah, sort of like all click, then that’s when it started. I’ve always been very, very feminine, growing up in quite patriarchal society. Back then, in Morocco, I’ve always been very passionate about social justice, about equality, equity, diversity, all of these topics. And then, during my master’s in urban studies, I got to discover what we call racial justice. And I realized that the struggles for justice are actually much more diverse in their focus, and they can empathize or focus on social environmental and racial justice and somehow like overlap and reinforce one another. And the concept of spatial justice, which is Yeah, linking the social aspects or to the space as in place is never or just the container of human activity. It also shapes human life. And said it can be indeed quite exclusive OR quite a reflection of our society, basically, which are Yeah, much, quite often sexist or racist or yeah, not very equal. So yeah, that’s been my reasons for starting this work. It’s my why. Then, yeah, I started open inclusion, which is a consultancy firm working on the concept of social justice and spatial justice, and gender and diversity into the urban settings.

05:39

I,

Maria Ross  05:40

I love that. And I’m just seeing so many overlaps in, in not as grand missions, but just the ability to take space and encourage collaboration and inclusion that I see in workplaces trying to do some innovative things with their actual physical space, for example, making the physical space accommodate neurodiversity, or the different ways that people work together. You know, there’s spaces for collaboration, there’s spaces for solo work. And so I’m imagining that you’re applying that on a larger scale to a city. Yes.

Safaa Charafi  06:16

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I really like to think of it as the concept. I mean, it will do what you work on, and what you talk about all the time, this concept of empathy, whether we think of marginalized community, the people who usually wouldn’t have a seat at the table, or their voices heard. And when it comes to urban development, and when it comes to making the city, it is historically by men for men, and they’re oftentimes able bodied, hetero, educated, rich men. And these are just the facts. So that, for example, our cities are car centric, knowing that the majority of those who use those cars to go to work are men, also says a lot about who’s included or excluded from the conversation around, how do we make a theory? What is the city for what kind of resources do we put in the city, and sort of like having the quality of life and the well being of residents also in the center? So yeah, that’s something that we kind of, like, start doing with the DNI work at the workplace. And it’s more of Yeah, micro level, I would say. And in the city, it’s much more on a macro level. So yeah, for me, the empathy is a fundamental pillar of what I would like to call an inclusive city or an empathic theory, which is a concept as well. So

Maria Ross  07:51

I love that and I want to get to the role of empathy and building inclusive cities. But first, I want to ask, how do you believe that cities are failing us right now? With whether it’s women, whether it’s marginalized communities? Can you give us some examples? I know, you just gave us sort of the car example. But can you give us some other examples of things we may not even realize are non inclusive in the way that we design our cities?

08:14

Mm hmm.

Safaa Charafi  08:16

I mean, I could give a lot of examples. It’s also Yeah, I do give lectures as well on the topic of like sexism and the theory or how urban planning also failed women, how our cities actually fail women. I mean, like I said, theories have been an article predominantly designed by men, for men, men, and then with a very known book called feminist theory claiming space in a man men world, by the author, Leslie Kern, who’s also an urban Canadian. And she talked on about the role of theory in or how like, things have changed as well for her when she became a mom, for example, and how she navigates the city much more in a much different way because he has a stroller or because of her body changing because of how the gaze as well as the male gait in the city. And this failure to include women in the policy planning for urban development, for example, is a way of making their specific demand or the specific need

09:33

invisible,

Maria Ross  09:35

right, but can you give us some actual examples like like you said, earlier, you were talking about the cars? Can you give us some other you know, some things that will ignite people to see something that maybe has been unseen to them before?

Safaa Charafi  09:50

Well, one particular example is and it’s kind of a running gag right now. It was, yeah, a couple of years ago and also Though there was a theory planning meeting, and someone asked like, oh, it’s like was more of a joke. So they said, what if no one was now sectors? Right? Without? Yeah, the consultants were there. And they were like, Oh, what if actually, maybe it is. And they did a study where they realized that the so basically, they were always starting to plow the snow that was on the, on the row of Spruce for the cart. And then second, they would do the pavements and do the sidewalks, and still had a high rate of people break in there. Yeah, like bowling and having to do it at all, at all bites. But also, yeah, older people, etc. And they decided they were just thinking, Okay, but what if we just change the? Like, what if we just start with the sidewalks first? How would that be? And it turns out that the rate of people falling and of course, they’re going to be higher, or the majority were women of a certain age, that rate fell down. And they were much less, I mean, it also cost the city less, because the current didn’t need it as much, first of all, and the majority of those who are using the roads were men, the majority of those using the pavement or the sides were women of a certain age, but also women with strollers, because they have much different mobility, which in our terms we call mobility of care, because they do what we call trip chain. So they have much different way of going from A to B, they do like a B D, like, yeah, either because of care work, or because of attending to like different activities happen to drop kids at school, picking up groceries, you name it. And that’s also something that we see all over. Like in different societies, it’s not that more patriarchal society would have, obviously, much higher rate, that even in Western society, it is still the case that women do more care, work and unpaid labor, which also translate in how they navigate the city and how they use public transport, how they, yeah, whether they will drive cars or less. And also when it comes to power ownership or housing, home ownership, etc. So they’re, like, we talk now about the gender inequality. But there’s also inequality between women entities, the when it comes to those who work in certain areas, or in certain spaces, or the highly educated women, the single moms, the women of color, the I mean, all of these women will all it’s not a monolith. So they will use public paper, they will use the theory in very different ways. So it’s really important to have like in terms of political pace of conversation and discussion, women’s participation, when it comes to including them in the theory has been so far very partial, and yet fails to really create any sort of equality.

Maria Ross  13:04

Yeah, I mean, you can look at it across so many vectors, because, you know, you can look at some lower socio economic neighborhoods, predominantly black or brown communities, at least here in the US. And, you know, they’re their cities where their food deserts, for example, they don’t have access to fresh produce, or fresh groceries, or access to green space. And so I can see how when you’re when you’re having those planning discussions, but also those, those revitalizing and expansion discussions, that is so important that all different voices, this is again, where diversity makes for a better decision, all those different voices are brought to the table, to be able to unearth these issues that people might miss because they are part of the predominant culture or the predominant group, and they don’t even see it. I’m thinking back to when my husband and I spent a few weeks in London for his work. This was when my son was maybe 10 months old. And my husband is from the UK. He’s from Scotland. So we brought the baby with us so he could go visit his grandparents up in Scotland. But we were in London for a while at an apartment. And I loved it because I could get anywhere in the cabs there because they have the platforms so that you can get your stroller into the cab without taking your child out of the stroller. And I just thought I mean, that’s such a small detail, but it’s in terms of accessibility in terms of my ability to get around with my young baby and in a stroller. And by the way, it was also pouring rain the whole week. We were there. So I was using a lot of cabs. And so I just I so appreciated it because it felt like it was such a thoughtful, intentional decision to do that and, and not that hard, and the impact that it has on citizens and Their ability to move through their day move through their life is just, it’s just so much more improved when you bring those voices to the table to say, Have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? So I’m kind of answering my own question here. But what do you feel is the role of empathy and building inclusive cities? Is it that ability to, you know, gather diverse voices, is that that ability to be able to listen, you know, productively to those diverse voices? Like where do you see the role of empathy? And where have you seen it play out to success in building inclusive cities?

Safaa Charafi  15:36

Well, like I said, yeah, for me, it is a fundamental pillar when it comes to building cities that are inclusive, but also listen to these diverse voices. It’s, I mean, it serves as this guiding principle, at least in my, the reasons why I do this work is because there’s this need for an attendant for compassion, for again, considering the diverse needs and experience of all the residents of the city. And I think that when you embrace empathy, as an urban planner, or as a policymaker, we sort of like recognize and acknowledge the lived experiences of the typically marginalized communities, and those who are affected by Yeah, factors like, like we said, socioeconomic status, age, disability, gender, race, migration, status, you name it. And when we actively listen to this, and this is also like the active empathy, right? It’s not just like passive empathy. But we’re not just listening to them, we have to do something with it. So it also but I also encourage, like the parts betray designs, or to really have an active voice in how the city is being made. So that would help with like, really understand their unique challenges and their perspective, to then tailor or address their specific needs, and really make sure that no one is left behind, which is, again, it sounds very cliche, and I think it’s mostly to be thoughtful, and acknowledge, rather than I don’t think we can include everyone, this is also something that we we can only try. And by trying we can fix, what’s the wrongs that the city had been built on, or whatever has been done before. And I think the me empathy also, like drives co creation efforts within communities. Like I said, it’s about having this active dissipation, creating partnerships between residents and different decision makers, different stakeholders, and really like engaging in meaningful dialogue. I mean, I don’t think diversity. For me, it’s also this aspect of diversity, which had been wanted to talk not in a lot of like posters, and we talk about diversity, like it’s just some trendy topic when it’s actually more open to learning and unlearning it’s hard work. So yeah, I think that cities need to use this empathy and really need to rely more on listening to each other. And, like, yeah, reflecting the needs and aspirations of their inhabitants, like cities, are made for people, but also by people. And that’s something we tend to forget. Because urban planners, like just be the experts.

Maria Ross  18:33

Yeah, to be the master architects. But I think that’s such an important point you brought up there and that we can’t possibly create something that’s going to please everyone. And that’s, that’s the often the argument you hear for, you know, diversity or empathy or whatever is, and that’s not the goal. The goal is that we make the best decisions synthesizing as many inputs as we can. And then when we communicate what are you know, this is true for work, this is probably true when they unveil the city plan, when we have the conversation of this is the decision we came to, number one people know that their voices were heard. And number two, you can provide an opportunity to say we know that many of you, you know, there were quite a few people who wanted this. And here’s why we weren’t able to provide it like that’s actually empathetic is to give people a reason why like that. You heard what they said. But here were the constraints. Here were the obstacles to why we were not able to provide that. So maybe come up with some alternatives. But it’s almost like people that are in decision making. Just don’t even want to have the conversation. They just want to be able to go like here’s the decision. Here’s the plan, live with it. Yeah, the empathy comes in not from doing and pleasing everyone who was involved in the process, the empathy comes in in synthesizing all their information allowing them to be heard And then being able to explain how you came to the ultimate decision that you had to come to. And I feel like that’s the missing piece for people, where they say I just don’t even want to have that difficult conversation. So I’m going to just make the decision and proclaim it from on high. And then I don’t want to hear from anybody. Again, right, that’s like the most on empathetic approach to decision making. So I just want to make sure that we strengthen we underscore that point, because this is one of the myths that I feel like stops so many leaders and decision makers from embracing empathy, like, I’m not even going to practice it, because I know I’m not going to please everybody. And empathy is not about pleasing everybody, it’s about at least seeing their point of view, and enabling them to be heard, and factoring that in to your decision. But if that decision can’t accommodate what they’re asking for, you can then have another conversation that says, here’s why we had to make that decision, or here’s what we can do instead. Do you agree with that?

Safaa Charafi  21:02

Absolutely. I think especially when it comes to now we call multicultural city, or the super diversity, or it’s often this resistance mechanism that we will hear like, oh, but we can’t please everyone. Oh, but we can have everyone’s voices heard. It’s not possible in a theory of few Yeah, 100 1000s. To just have a, it’s not possible. And I think in my opinion, it’s not about that we have to take every single resident into account, it’s really about this, more of an democratic way of building the city. There’s also the concept of the right to the city, which is the philosophical concept, but it’s basically the full accessibility to all the resources and opportunities that a city can offer. And these are actually not, I mean, there is a whole set of activists who work on this on this topic to really ensure that everyone has a right to the city, the reading, or that we all have equal access to the resources to, to public spaces, to housing, to dignity in the city to public transport. I mean, it’s really making sure that different needs are taken into account. And that also recognizing that not everyone will use the theory in the same way that not everyone has the same ability or not everyone has the same need. But it’s also Yeah, like just taking this into account. I think it’s something that most urban planners and policymakers would come from, it’s also coming from this lived experience. So we

22:42

would build cities that worked for us, right? Yes, we absolutely did.

Safaa Charafi  22:47

Yeah. What about the elderly? What about the kids? I mean, there’s also this city for kids, or for children content, that something that I absolutely love, because we tend to forget, and maybe we were all kids at some point, but we tend to forget how it is or how it was or like how distances are why stairs not be built at the scale of a kid when it’s much higher for them to client than then read for adults, like all these small things, because we don’t delve in the shoes of other users of the Yeah, right structure.

Maria Ross  23:24

And it’s often the voices that don’t have the power, they are not heard, because they don’t have the power. And so we need to as leaders and as allies, if we are in those positions of power, we need to seek those voices out. We need to make sure intentionally that they’re being heard. And I’m kind of giggling about your city for kids concept, because this is something we’re facing in the beautiful place where we live, our son is nine and it’s really difficult for him to actually go ride his bike safely anywhere around here. There’s huge hills, there’s this horrific four way stop sign down where you know, the main places are, there’s nowhere for kids to go. Other than like a park or two or maybe Starbucks like, so like, this is one of the things we’re looking at in terms of like, do we need to move to a different city that accommodates more of what, like our child wants in his upbringing and in his childhood, right. So, you know, and that’s a very bottom line impact because we could end up leaving the city because of that. And so they lose our tax dollars, they lose our our contribution. And so, you know, if you’re if you think of a city as almost like a workplace, you know, you’re losing talent. That way you’re you’re you’re not attracting talent to your organization, if you will, because you’re making these decisions that are very, you know, myopic in nature. So this is such a such a great thing. And I think you kind of answered this last question I had for you, we think We’ve been dancing around it. But the idea that spatial justice connects to social justice. But is there anything we’ve missed around that?

Safaa Charafi  25:12

I think I mean, yeah, there’s definitely a huge field work from Edward soja. To David Harvey, working on how the impacts of urban planning decisions plays out in society and how justice can sort of like be translated. I think it’s really important to also, something we don’t talk often about is this distribution of public services or resources have like it had, like the redlining, for example. That’s also something that just blows my mind. I don’t know if I need to explain what it

Maria Ross  25:50

let’s just explain the definition for anyone that doesn’t understand what that means. Well,

Safaa Charafi  25:53

yeah, it’s a it’s a discriminatory practice that basically consists of the systematic denial of services like schooling, insurance loans, mortgages, in certain areas based on their race or ethnicity. And it basically it was literally just planted by neighborhoods with a red line. That’s why it’s called Red Line in in places that would be not really good for investment. And it happened to be of course, neighborhoods with a number of racial and ethnic minorities.

Maria Ross  26:25

Well, actually, you know, it’s not to interrupt you, I’m sorry. The other thing that’s like atrocious about redlining is it also, you know, kept different ethnic groups from buying homes in certain areas. And it was like a year or so ago that I heard about a neighborhood in the San Francisco Bay Area that they discovered, the ability to redline was still in the city’s charter, it had never been removed. So just to discover that this law was still in the charter and still in the books, and nobody caught it. In, you know, the 2020s in the 2010s, was absolutely shocking to me. But that’s the remnants of, you know, racial inequity, the remnants of, of slavery, the remnants of racism in our country, and I’m sure it exists in other places, too.

Safaa Charafi  27:15

Yeah. I mean, yeah, just talking about Now you talk about the US another example, that it’s really mind blowing, you probably heard of is the poor door policy. I don’t know if you’ve heard about this one, which is a separate entrance in the like a residency or like a multi unit housing development, there is a policy that would allow the tenants to ask for having a separate door for people who pay. So you would have Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s, it’s visible, a symbol of an unfair housing practice and of discrimination based on basically you can add, yeah, you can just have a separate entrance to the building for condo owners. And another one in the back are the renters, who live in more nice low income housing units, or like more affordable housing units. And this has been like in mixed income development, urban development, or like real estate, which often will translate into race, this grid discrimination because the affordable unit or the cheaper rental are often disproportionately rented by or occupied by people of color, or people with a disability or trans people, while the more higher end units are going to be primarily occupied by non disabled, educated white people. So yeah, a lot of advocacy behind it, or like affordable housing, civil rights and local political leaders to, like, urge New York City to stop these practices. But it’s very telling of the nation’s history as well.

Maria Ross  28:59

Yeah. And so as we wrap up, I just I would love to leave on a hopeful note, like where do you find hope in the work that you’re doing? Are you seeing, are you seeing change? Are you seeing this be? Slowly but surely, more of the adopted model as people plan cities as they think about adapting cities to more of the needs of their citizens? Like, what keeps you motivated in the work right now?

Safaa Charafi  29:25

I mean, there’s definitely more and more talk about the topic of inclusive city, the feminist theories of something that was more theoretical, when, like in the late 80s and 70s. With the feminist geography or human geography, which is the field of human geography, and which created more like, like safety, justice and career geographies and decolonial geography etc. But now in the past couple of years, we really feel like this research Since the topic is not just a theoretical topic, it’s something that a lot of international organizations are taking over a lot of cities are trying to adopt and taking the lead up to Vienna, there is a lot of like pure learning of knowledge sharing. And really, like a lot of cities are adopting this strategy of gender mainstreaming, for example, which is, like we’ve had an initiative of implementing gender aspects in all phases of the project from the the first phase to the implementation to, you know, the constructions and bond, there’s a lot of civil society organizations that are working on the topic in order to bring about more safety for women, like reclaim the streets movement, that kind of thing. And I think it’s also really like becoming more mainstream, I do realize that my work, because rather niche, especially when it comes to decolonizing, urban spaces, and I have a much more intersectional approach, rather than like a, yeah, playing gender. It’s not only about gender for me. So that’s something I think we need to me to work on. But there’s one more need for it. I think a lot of people are now more aware that it’s something that can change, and we can they’ll change our cities like, especially when we talk about inclusive climate adaptation, or then yeah, so I think they are going in the right direction, and the some resistance, but yeah, I do get a lot of projects and calls from the front, like all different theories and different organizations. So let’s hope there.

Maria Ross  31:41

Yeah, that is great. And I’m gonna, I’m gonna link to a past episode I did a few years ago with a gentleman named James Ehrlich, who was working on concepts for the neighborhood of the future. And it was very much about about leveraging technology, and then taking lessons from the environment and creating a more collaborative neighborhood where residents are sharing resources, and they’re, they’re doing things together as part of the design of the neighborhood. So it’s not exactly your work, but it’s sort of that it’s that tangential, you know, how can we reimagine where we live as a way to better our lives and, and what that living space, whether it’s a city, whether it’s a neighborhood, what it looks like, and what it offers, so that we can have richer and more interconnected, more thriving lives. So I’m going to put a link to that in the show notes for folks, if they’re interested in checking that one out. But Safa, I just want to thank you so much for your work, first of all, and for your time today, and the great education and insights that you gave us into this work. And I for one, if I am speaking personally, you know, at least at least we’re at a place where when you say the phrase inclusive cities, there’s probably more people that kind of have an inkling of what that means then maybe 10 or 20 years ago. So slow progress is slow, right? What do they say? It but it bent, the arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice or something like that. But thank you so much. And we’re gonna put your links in the show notes. I know that currently urban inclusion as of this recording doesn’t have a website yet. So folks can connect with you on LinkedIn. And I will have your LinkedIn link in the show notes so people can connect with you and learn more about you and see your see your work and see your writing. So thank you so much for your time today.

Safaa Charafi  33:32

So much Maria. Thanks for having me.

Maria Ross  33:33

And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard, you know what to do, rate review and share with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Jim Wharton: How Fostering Empathy with Animals Encourages Conservation

Let me be clear: Humans ARE animals. Empathy for animals is not about thinking they’re cute. It’s about creating a strong connection where we understand their unique needs and habitats so we can be part of the solution to increase biodiversity, avoid extinction, and promote a healthy planet for ALL of us.

Today, I am delighted to speak to Jim Wharton. We talk about how and why to create stronger connections between humans, animals, and nature at large, why empathy is required to make change, how to make conservation personal, and when and how we can use strategic anthropomorphism (that’s when we attribute human traits to animals!) without actually causing harm to them. And Jim shares the amazing 2024 expansion at the Seattle Aquarium featuring animals and habitats from the Coral Triangle which allows them to tell a more globally connected story of ocean conservation. It sounds amazing!

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

  • The disconnection to nature is artificial and allows people to externalize conservation and not embrace it as something that affects them as fellow animals.
  • The disconnect between humans and nature is an illusion that falsely elevates humans above everything else.
  • Anthropomorphism is not necessarily the problem. The real problems come with anthropocentrism – thinking the human experience is the central defining experience leading to humans harming the animals they are trying to care for.

“Developmentally we all start out being deeply, deeply connected to everything around us. We begin our lives looking at animals as anthropomorphic peers, the same as your brother or sister, there’s no difference to you. And then gradually, over time, we have “difference” educated into us and “connection” educated out of us.”

—  Jim Wharton

Episode References:

About Jim Wharton, VP, Conservation Engagement & Learning, Seattle Aquarium

Dr. Jim Wharton is the Vice President of Conservation Engagement and Learning at the Seattle Aquarium. Jim joined the Aquarium in 2012 from Mote Marine Laboratory where he served as Vice President of Education. He holds a B.S. from the University of Michigan, an M.S. in marine resource management from Oregon State University, and a Ph.D. in educational measurement and evaluation from the University of South Florida. Jim and the team at the Seattle Aquarium have been working with partners to explore how fostering empathy in our audiences can contribute to conservation outcomes. The Aquarium has shared effective practices and strategies for fostering empathy through publications and workshops with over 70 zoos and aquariums with a combined attendance of more than 75 million annually. The Aquarium partnered on a children’s book (and puppet show), Catastrophe by the Sea, that encourages readers to empathize with less traditionally charismatic animals. Jim is also an advocate for diversifying the way we talk about and portray sharks, shark scientists, and shark conservation in popular media.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Let me be clear, humans are animals to empathy for animals is not about thinking they’re cute. It’s about creating a strong connection where we understand their unique needs and habitats. So we can be part of the solution to increase biodiversity, avoid extinction and promote a healthy planet for all of us. As a huge animal lover myself, I was delighted to speak to Jim Wharton, Vice President of conservation, engagement and learning at the Seattle Aquarium. From his childhood fascination with sharks to the work he does now. Jim and the team at the Seattle Aquarium have been working with partners to explore how fostering empathy in our audiences can contribute to conservation outcomes. The aquarium has shared effective practices and strategies for fostering empathy through publications and workshops with over 70 zoos and aquariums, with a combined attendance of more than 75 million annually. The aquarium partnered on a children’s book and puppet show catastrophe by the sea that encourages readers to empathize with less traditionally charismatic animals. Jim is also an advocate for diversifying the way we talk about and portray sharks, Shark scientists and shark conservation in popular media. We talked about how and why to create stronger connections between animals, humans and nature at large, why empathy is required to make change as it’s pointless to create change in an apathetic environment. Thank you, Jim, for that, quote, how to make conservation personal, and when and how we can use strategic anthropomorphism. That’s when we attribute human traits to animals without actually causing harm to them, you’ll be surprised, and Jim shares the amazing 2024 expansion at the Seattle Aquarium featuring animals and habitats from the coral triangle, which allows them to tell a more globally conducted story of ocean conservation. It sounds amazing. PS, you can connect with the Aquarians work from wherever you live through their website, social channels, or by attending virtual events like lightning talks and empathy cafes. It was a great conversation on how the lessons of empathy building for animals apply to our own human to human relationships as well. You’re in for a treat. Welcome Jim Morton, to the empathy edge to talk about empathy with animals and our relationships and connections with animals and what that can teach us about developing empathy for each other. So welcome to the show. Thank you. So before we dive into our conversation around this work, tell us a little bit about how you got to this work in conservation, engagement and learning and how you even got to the aquarium just briefly tell us about that journey. And and what are you most passionate about in that in the work that you do? Yeah,

Jim Wharton  03:36

sure. So I, you know, I grew up like a lot of kids fascinated by the ocean, particularly fascinated by sharks, read a book when I was, I don’t know, seven or eight that made me convinced I was going to be world famous shark researcher. And, you know, as you go on, you have new experiences. i By the time I found my way to grad school, I mean, sharks had become a conservation concern that when I was a kid, that was not a concern, like they were, we were redistributing fisheries effort to sharks, instead of instead of thinking about their conservation, so So I shifted that focus started thinking about things like fisheries management. Once I started to get into sort of internships and experiences, I realized quickly that that was not a path for me, not one, I felt like I could bribe them. And so I actually went to the Oregon Coast Aquarium and volunteered just because I wanted to feel connected to the ocean. Again, I wanted to remind myself why I wanted to do the work and, and sort of stumbled into education as a conservation strategy. I don’t think it occurred to me that, you know, you can create all these regulations that you like, you can create broad systemic changes, but you it’s kind of pointless to create systemic change and an ignorant or apathetic system. Like those things just don’t happen. And so, you know, education is a bit of a long game, but, you know, education grew into thinking about, you know, environmental behavior and social science and of course, empathy folds. into all of that. And so that’s thinking about how we get people more connected to not just nature, but for us, in particular, the ocean, because the ocean is a little out of sight out of mind. For most people, it is not, you know, in their, their closest circle of concern. And so, you know, aquariums are an important window into those habitats a way to connect with those animals. And, you know, I think without that strong connection, it’s much more difficult for people to think about how they might like to change their lives.

Maria Ross  05:30

Yeah, I love this, because what you said was so powerful about, it’s pointless to create change in an apathetic setting, I’m paraphrasing there. But it’s true, because if there’s not a desire to care, or desire to change, or quite frankly, a connection to the group that you’re trying to impact, it’s a lot harder, and it’s forced, it’s optics, it’s all these other things. And so it’s really not just about sort of collecting money for conservation, but getting people really invested in caring about wildlife and caring about the oceans Exactly. Like you said, I live right on the cliffs of the Pacific Ocean. So every time I leave my house, the ocean is ever present for me. But I didn’t always live in an environment like that. So I get that the oceans can seem like this big, vast thing over there. And when we hear about, for example, pollution in the oceans, or different biodiversity, different ecosystems going extinct, it doesn’t really impact our daily lives. And so I’m sure like, you agree, having aquariums as a way to get up close and personal is so important. But it’s, it’s only a first step. And so talk to us a little bit about before actually, before we go into what the aquarium specifically is doing. Can you talk about or give us your take on how you create or leverage empathy for animals? Because I just want to share something very personal. Many years ago, I kind of had this existential crisis that I was actually more empathetic with animals than I was with human beings. Because it was, it was yeah, it was like the stories of abuse to animals or animals dying out that actually brought me to tears. And I thought, oh, what’s, what’s wrong with me, but then other people, I’m a dog lover, I’m a dog owner. And other people are like, I just don’t get having a pet. Like, they just can’t even fathom why that’s a thing. So what’s your particular take on the connection that humans have with animals? And is it always about as strong as empathy? Or, you know, where do you where do you see that?

Jim Wharton  07:35

Yeah, it’s an interesting question. Because developmentally, you know, we all start out, being deeply, deeply connected to everything around us, like everything around us. And so animals begin, we begin our lives, looking at animals as anthropomorphic peers, you know, the same as your brother or your sister, no difference to you. And then gradually, over time, we have difference educated into us, and connection educated out of us. And so we’re increasingly taught that humans are different from animals. Whereas, you know, that’s nothing could be further from the truth. Humans are animals. So not only are we separated from animals, but often we’re placed above and to the point where making a comparison to an animal can be an insult, right? You’re blind as a bat, or you’re, you know, breeding as a pig, or however you want to use those those kinds of comparisons. But we’re taught that we are different than and better than, and, you know, as we become as a society, more, more sort of digital and more metropolitan, we’ve become increasingly disconnected, not just from animals, but from nature. You can answer a question you can reach anyone in the world with a couple of clicks. But most of us don’t work food comes from, we don’t know where our waste goes. And we create this incredibly artificial disconnection from nature. And that allows us to externalize what’s happening to nature and to externalize conservation as a responsibility, right? So it’s like, I’m going to send my money to Conservation International, I’m going to send my money to the aquarium, they’re going to take care of conservation, as opposed to making it part of my personal identity, my personal, you know, mission as a as a person. So the way we think empathy plays into that is that empathy is a really strong skill set for developing and reinforcing connections. So the more you utilize your empathy skill set, and that’s one of my favorite things about empathy is it’s not a characteristic, right? It’s a thing that we do, we become better at. And so if you practice empathy, you become more empathetic. If you practice empathy, specifically with animals, you become more empathetic from animals. And then the sneaky thing about empathy is that the neural pathways for having empathy for animals and for people are the exact same pathways. So as you become more empathetic for animals, you kind of sneakily become more empathetic for people as well. But really, it’s about practice, right? If you’re if you’re not exposed Who’s to you didn’t grow up with Pat, you didn’t grow up with four h you didn’t grow up in a setting with animals, then you just haven’t practice that skill set. Right.

Maria Ross  10:08

And I’m frantically looking up as you’re talking because you’ve sparked some things I want to mention while we’re talking about this, but I loved what you said about we, we get sort of D educated about versus we get educated about difference, and we get d educated about connection. That’s not exactly the way that you said it. But I just thought that was super powerful, because that is true. That’s true across anything, in terms of difference across racism, across sexism across LGBTQ or homophobia, those things are not innate. Those things are are educated into us. And so is sort of the apathy for wildlife and nature and just animals in general, that can be educated into us. And I think that’s a really important point, just like empathy is innate to us as human beings. Science has shown us that. But as I always talk about the muscle can atrophy if it’s not modeled if it’s not celebrated, if it’s not rewarded, and I would imagine the same is true about our connection or our view of animals and nature.

Jim Wharton  11:20

The more you know, and you know, in in the olden days, you know, zoos and aquariums in science in general, my only contributed to that because we treated animals as objects, objects have fascination, but still objects, right. And so, zoos and aquariums used to be really uptight about naming animals. Because you didn’t want people to think of the animals that are in our care as pets, or you’d want them to think of them. You wanted to think of the sort of example of species because we were institutions of learning. But you don’t need to be an institution of learning anymore, because we’ve got, you know, you can answer just about any question you need on your phone, whether you get good information or not another question, but But yes, you still learn at zoos and aquariums, but that can’t be our purpose anymore. Purpose has to be about meaning making a connection, and helping people feel and see those connections. Because this idea that there is huge, there are humans and there is nature is is not it’s not accurate in the slightest, like humans did become unnatural. When we started breeding technology and building things. It’s just just this illusion we’ve created for ourselves, and in many ways, sort of selfishly elevating ourselves in that process.

Maria Ross  12:32

So as I mentioned, as you were talking earlier, two things came to mind. One, this idea of believing that conservation is done by other people or other organizations, that’s sort of a good first step. But there’s a fantastic book that I’m still working my way through called citizens. And I highly recommend it, I’ll put a link to it in the show notes. It’s called why the key to fixing everything is all of us. And it’s written by an author who has a consultancy called the new citizenship project. And they help both nonprofits and for profit companies engage their stakeholders in a way where they’re not solving the problems for them, but they’re making them part of the solution. And they have great case studies in the book about things they’ve done for the British trust. And for the BBC, where they’ve made people feel a sense of ownership. Rather than just give us your money and don’t worry, we’ll you don’t need to know any more, we’ll take care of it, getting people involved, getting them educated, getting them to feel bought in to being part of the solution. And so that’s exactly the the the sentiment you’re talking about. So highly recommend that book. And then there’s another organization that was started by someone, I went to college with a friend of mine from college, it’s called the Internet of elephants. And his work is applying technology to help people have more of a personal connection to endangered wildlife. And everything from super unique projects, like creating apps where people can exercise alongside, you know, a an endangered animal in Africa, or something like that. Just very unique ways to pull people back into nature and being back a part of it, so that they want to do more. And what I love about what you’re saying is I you know, we could probably have a whole nother conversation. There’s very mixed emotions about zoos and aquariums these days, right. And some of them have abused animals and some have not. But what I love is this is what I’m seeing is the organizations like the Seattle Aquarium, who are focused on education and and conservation. And obviously, treating animals with respect and treating animals with dignity. And as a way to, again, engage people into the process. And your your observation you made earlier about zoos in the past being more about looking at animals as objects of fascination. I mean, they are very awesome in the actual meaning of awesome but not just looking at them as an other, but sort of like how do we live together in this ecosystem? You is really powerful? Yeah, I

Jim Wharton  15:02

think we keep thinking like, how do we like what’s the highest and best use of the time that we have with people when they’re with us? Right? It’s not to help them understand that some whales have to blowholes some whales at one level, like the the facts of the matter if they interest you, and they get you excited, and that what brings you to the aquarium then great, but let’s talk about let’s talk about whale society, let’s talk about the the ways that these animals enrich the systems enrich our lives, because in the end, you know, conservation is not really an animal or a habitat problem. It’s a people problem. So I mean, people are both the problem, the solution, and consequently, the beneficiaries. So healthy ecosystems are in our best interests. Unquestionably,

Maria Ross  15:45

yeah. And it’s just, it’s similar to helping people strengthen their empathy for, for other people, in that, if you just think of this vast amorphous group, it seems very removed from you, right? But when you actually go to the aquarium and meet the whale, and meet the, you know, the other, the other organism, the other animal, you’re learning their story, right? And that actually engenders empathy and us we start to feel more connected when we learn about an individual, versus like, oh, 1000s of fish in this particular ecosystem are dying, right, for better or worse, that just sort of glances off us. But if we have an experience at the aquarium, or at the zoo, where we’re meeting that animal, and we’re learning that animal story as a representation, we are way more connected. So I’m assuming that’s part of the goal as well. Yeah,

Jim Wharton  16:35

no question. I mean, what’s that old expression, like a single death as a strategy and a million hours this, right, so that’s sort of that same idea that by showing an animal as a subjective other, you create a different kinds of respect for and connection to that animal, it’s easy to bring animals into your circle of concern, and think of them in a less utilitarian way.

Maria Ross  16:57

I’m gonna throw you a curveball here, because this question just occurred to me, you know, it’s so interesting, the way movies and documentaries humanize animals to the point that sometimes I can’t watch the nature documentaries, because I’m too invested in the baby seal, and I don’t want to see them getting attacked. What’s your take on that? Like, can that can that humanization of the animal go too far?

Jim Wharton  17:19

So that’s a great question, and zoos and aquariums, this is something that that we constantly struggle with this idea of anthropomorphism right can’t are we, I can’t

Maria Ross  17:26

say that word. That’s why I didn’t say it. So

Jim Wharton  17:30

we’re making animals too much like humans. And I think that I think that we sometimes misunderstand what anthropomorphism is. And what it is, it’s a metaphor, right? It’s a way that a person tries to understand something that is different than their own experience. And so, I mean, this is just education at its basic. So you see something that’s different than than what you’ve experienced the past that you’re trying to hang it on a hook somewhere in your brain that’s similar to something that you’re doing. So in some cases, that’s super helpful, like you can see behaviors that animals, you know, undergo, and they’re very similar to ours, and it helps us understand them better. And then there are other cases where we assume that something that’s happening with an animal is exactly the same thing that would happen with us. And that becomes problematic. And so we talk a lot about strategic or enlightened anthropomorphism. If you understand an animal’s natural history, then you are less likely to project yourself into that animals experience because the real problems that anthropomorphism is anthropocentrism. It’s, it’s thinking that the human experience is the central defining experience of life. And that leads to things like, like feeding grizzly bears, because you think that they’re hungry, saving seals off the beach that don’t need saving, it would lead to us doing things that are not helpful to animals and making assumptions about what’s happening, that similarly not helpful to animals. So I think the other thing we often talk about is that there are some animals that benefit from that kind of humanization. And there are some that it’s just not necessary. Like we have sea otters in our care. You know, they’re, they look wonderful and cuddly adorable. Yeah, they are. But the, you don’t need to anthropomorphize a car, right, people already feel deeply connected to them, because they have a lot of the characteristics that just naturally engender empathy thing, you know, they have really strong agents. See, they show a lot of activity, they look like an animal, so it’s easy to recognize them, like people just this they instantly drawn to a sea otter, but something like a barnacle or a CNM. And you see him and he doesn’t even look like an animal, it looks like a flower. And so anthropomorphism for these animals can be incredibly helpful because it allows you to start to understand that this is an animal like me, it has some of the same needs, it has some of the same challenges. And so it creates a connection. And it’s in you’re not in you’re not in any danger of, you know, over anthropomorphizing the CNMV

Maria Ross  19:52

oh my gosh, I love that so much because that’s, that’s I’ve often wondered that of if that’s actually a good thing or a Sometimes it goes too far, and you’ve just given us some great examples of when it can go too far to the point where someone, this is true of humans too. You think you’re being empathetic, because you’re making assumptions, when actually, you’re thinking of it like how I would want to be treated. And I wrote in the empathy edge, that it’s not about the empathy is not about the golden rule. It’s about the platinum rule, which is Do unto others as they would have done unto them. And so this, this calls to mind, that concept of, we want it we want to be curious, we want to get to know someone else’s, or an animal’s context and story, and then be able to be empathetic by giving them the things that they need, not the things that we think they need.

Jim Wharton  20:43

Right? And we talk about that a lot. We talk about the difference between what’s it like to you know, walk in another person’s shoes or swimming in another animal spins, it’s not about what it’s like, you it’s like, what what is it like for them? Right? Right. And that’s an that can be that’s an incredibly powerful nuance that a lot of people haven’t processed.

Maria Ross  21:03

No, and it’s and it’s good. And I feel like it’s good intentions. But it goes as it goes, right. Like don’t feed the grizzly. Don’t feed the pigeons like they’re fine. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about the what the aquarium is doing. And the big expansion that’s happening this summer.

Jim Wharton  21:27

Yeah, so we’re opening a new building here at the Aquarium of the buildings, called the ocean pavilion focuses on the coral triangle, which is a incredibly marine bio diverse habitat on the other side of the world. So around Indonesia, Philippines, those that sort of area. And the reason we chose to focus on that space is that we really, you know, we’ve been a regional aquarium for our entire existence representing the Salish Sea in the Puget Sound, we will always be a regional aquarium. But simple fact of the matter is what happens in Puget Sound doesn’t say in Puget Sound. And so, you know, in order to understand the global context of ocean issues, we wanted to be able to provide another sense of place to allow people to make comparisons and to understand that the challenges facing the coral triangle are suspiciously similar to the challenges that are facing the Salish Sea. And so working together is the best way to face those challenges. And in that process, you know, in building the new exhibit, we don’t we didn’t want to just build them in their brain. So like there’s there’s empathy as part of the of what’s interwoven in the way that we understand our approach. So some exhibits, it’s we’re really hoping to encourage people to think about what is what does that animals experience like in the ocean, as opposed to what’s in this tank? What’s in that one? And, you know, so even to the point where the, the exhibit titles aren’t titled their questions, we want to really encourage people to, to think about their place in these systems, how they improve the systems, how systems influence them. It’s really about meaning making. It’s not about information sharing. But it’s exciting, and we can’t wait to see it happening. It’s gonna open this summer, this summer, summer 24. Great.

Maria Ross  23:05

Well, I am definitely going to check that out next time. I’m in Seattle. But I’m so excited for that. And I’m so excited with, with what I’m seeing from organizations like the Seattle Aquarium, from other you know, I live in near San Francisco, the San Francisco Zoo, the efforts that are being done to not just work on conservation and education, but to involve everyone. And again, it goes back to that book citizens, which I highly recommend, which is about, it’s not the consumer story where things are being done. For us. It’s the citizen story where we’re part of the solution. So love the work you’re doing. I have great memories of the Seattle Aquarium when I lived in Seattle before I had kids, so we have to take our son up there at some point. But so I’m gonna have all your links in the show notes, where people can also find out more about the aquarium. But real quickly for anyone who’s on a peloton right now or something? Where can they connect with you? Where can they find out more information about the exhibit? Sure,

Jim Wharton  24:02

yeah, please do connect with me on LinkedIn, easy to find there. You could follow me on Twitter at at Jim Morton, please do come to the Seattle Aquarium website, which is simple Seattle aquarium.org. You could search for empathy or or take a browse around and see some of the other programs that were invested in. We’re doing work all over the world now and super proud of, of not just the work we’re doing, but the community we’re building around conservation.

Maria Ross  24:24

I love it. Thank you, Jim, for your time and your insights today. Thank you, it was a pleasure. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard you know what to do. Please rate review and share it with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. booked me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Tim Leon: The Return on Empathy for Brands and Marketers

Empathetic marketing is having a moment. But really, this trend has been a long time coming. Buyers today are savvy, everything is available online, and they have no patience for brands that don’t understand them or their needs. My guest today, Tim Leon, coined the term Return on Empathy and talks about all that companies gain when they engage in more empathetic marketing tactics.

We discuss what empathy marketing means, why marketers should embrace it, and how it applies equality to B2B as well as B2C brands. We share data that shows why buyers are choosing empathetic brands, and why this is not just a trend, but a transformative moment in how we market and sell. And finally, we share actionable strategies to inject more empathy into your marketing – not least of which is understanding where marketing’s limitations end and your culture, leadership, and policies need to also become part of the effort.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

  • Ask customers what challenges they’re facing, not just what they think about your product or service. You’ve got to go deeper to better understand and empathize with them. 
  • Now more than ever, the companies that portray ads that promote well-being and comfort are the companies that people want to do business with. They don’t want a hard sell, they want to feel good about the brands they’re working with. 
  • You have to sell to people, whether you’re working B2B or B2C. People want authenticity and empathy from the organizations they work with, no matter what industry they’re in. 

“Return on Empathy means if you’re delivering empathy authentically and honestly, you’re building customer loyalty and protected market share.”

—  Tim Leon

Episode References:

About Tim Leon, President, Geile Leon Marketing Communications

Tim Leon is the President of Geile Leon Marketing Communications. The firm was founded in 1989 and has served clients locally, regionally, and nationally. The firm is celebrating its 34th year in business and is located in The Hill Neighborhood of St. Louis, Missouri, Tim’s role at the agency includes brand strategy/planning for clients, new business development, and a host of other duties that come with owning a small business!

Connect with Tim Leon:

Geile Leon Marketing Communications: geileon.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timleon

Facebook: facebook.com/GeileLeonMarketingCommunications

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Empathetic marketing is having a moment. But really this trend has been a long time coming. Buyers today are savvy, everything is available online, and they have no patience for spending money on brands that don’t understand them, or their needs and goals. My guest today, Tim Lyon coined the term return on empathy, and talks about all that companies gain when they engage in more empathetic marketing tactics. The president of Guile Lian marketing communications, a firm founded in 1989, that serves clients locally, regionally and nationally. His firm recently released the return on empathy white paper, and the link will be in the show notes for you. Today we discuss what empathy marketing means, why marketers should embrace it, and how it applies equally to b2b as well as b2c brands. We share data that shows why buyers are choosing empathetic brands, and why this is not just a trend, but a transformative moment in how we market and sell. And finally we share actionable strategies to inject more empathy into your marketing, not least of which is understanding where marketing’s limitations are, and where your culture, leadership and policies need to also become part of the overall effort. Take a listen. Welcome, Tim Leon to the empathy edge podcast, I am super excited to have this conversation with a fellow marketer, and brand strategist about the importance of empathy in marketing, and what it actually means and how to leverage it in a healthy way, and all the things. So welcome to the show.

Tim Leon  02:27

Thanks a lot, Maria. I’m really excited to be here today.

Maria Ross  02:31

So tell us a little bit, Tim, about how you got into this world of marketing. And specifically, what was the epiphany moment where you realized, like many of us marketers do that empathy is actually a superpower when it comes to connecting and engaging with your ideal clients.

Tim Leon  02:49

Sure, it really started in 2018, I did a workshop, I was a participant on finding your why your personal why. And I did a lot of soul searching and what I really came to the conclusion, what really drives my mission in life is to serve people with empathy, so that they can feel their true value. I try to do that, as a leader, I tried to do that in my personal life, some times more successful than others. But empathy, to me is a gift that I feel I have, but it’s really opened a lot of doors because I feel like I can connect to people in a way that really is productive for myself and for the person I’m interacting with. And when the pandemic kids, I sat back and looked at what was going on in the world. And as you can well appreciate Maria, empathy became more and more talked about, not just in every part of society. But in marketing and branding, I started the city. This, what I call pattern, right marketers, really, that were sensitive to it, figuring out, I’ve got to get on board and figure out how to infuse authentic empathy. And you saw examples of folks that didn’t do it, that really kind of didn’t really take into account what was going on in the world, tried to just keep the Evergreen marketing going and plow through a pandemic. That didn’t work so well. And I think the pandemic did this as marketers, it was the first time we could talk to our consumers, kind of under this theme of we’re all in this together. Because Wait, we’re experienced the same things they were. And to me, the companies that got it right where the people that realize that it changed how they did business, to be a little more sensitive to the plight of what people were going through. So that’s kind of how I abroad into our business. And how, you know, it led to this white paper that we wrote called Return on empathy, which is that whole premise of authentic empathy, infused and delivered and branding and marketing has benefits way beyond, you know, you’re doing the right thing, but it has benefits to the bottom line. I mean, it can help build your brand. Yeah, it was the, that was the salutely.

Maria Ross  05:27

That was the Epiphany, I love it. And it’s true, it’s, you know, our work has followed a similar pattern in that, working with the clients. And I would love to hear the kinds of clients you work with, because I’ve worked with tech clients, mostly, but also solopreneurs, consultants, coaches. And it was only in my later years of my marketing career did I realize that what I was doing as a marketer was trying to be empathetic, trying to see things from the customers or the clients point of view, and being able to connect with them where they were, and you look back and you go, I don’t know that I called it that as a marketer, when I was building campaigns, or writing, copy or doing all the things, but that really is the superpower of marketing. And I have worked with and maybe you have two very senior marketing executives who almost have a disdain for their customers. And I think to myself, you’re never going to be effective at reaching them, if you don’t respect them. So what kinds of clients do you work with? And have you seen that that play out as well?

Tim Leon  06:35

Absolutely. And you know, it’s really across, I work in the b2b sector, quite a bit Heil industrial clients. I also work in higher ed, which, to me has seen a transformation in terms of higher ed all of a sudden, focused on being close to the customer, understanding the mindset of today’s students, because it’s changed, right? I mean, what students today, they’re looking to stay closer to home, which is a new phenomenon. When they’re looking on campus, they want to understand what kind of mental health resources you can offer. There are things that are happening today in higher ed, that totally were probably precipitated by the pandemic, but they changed the behaviors. And that’s the thing I would say, as marketers, we’re all trying to figure out which of these behavior shifts that’s happened over the last two or three years, I get a stick, you know, we keep thinking that a consumer is going to come back to the way they used to purchase products, I tend to believe across all industries, changes have occurred, that are the new norm and the new reality.

Maria Ross  07:45

Absolutely, absolutely. So let’s talk about empathy and marketing. Because I, you know, I work on that aspect. I talk about that. Other marketers I’ve had on the show, talk about it. In your definition. What does empathetic marketing mean? What does it look like? And how do you define it as a concept?

Tim Leon  08:07

I think, traditionally, we’ve all we’ve all said to ourselves, as long as we put ourselves in the customers shoes, we could be effective at marketing. That’s not, to me, the total story, we have to put ourselves in the minds of the customer, which is a lot deeper, and a lot more, you have to do a little more soul searching to get there. So for me, we’ve always done voice of the customer research Brady campaign we’ve done but the types of questions I’m asking now are much more probing, I want to know, not just what the customer thinks about our industry or category or product, I want to understand what the customer challenges are, personally, professionally. That to me is what change is we have to understand the plight of the customer on a completely deeper level, to really deliver empathy. And to me, there’s no empathy. There’s a million million definitions. The one I like is from a guy named Alfred Adler. He was an Austrian psychiatrist, but he said, empathy is seeing with the eyes of another, listening with the ears of another and feeling with the heart of another. And that to me, is, you know, how do I get there? How do I understand customers at that level, that when I can do it, I can see we’re connecting on a deeper level because I see engagement, right social media, I see people commenting on some of the posts we do I know that we’re hitting a nerve. When I start to see that dialogue, customers aren’t as passive. They’re actually commenting on our posts and what I see what their cabinet got to me. I know we’ve struck that nerve. So that’s it. Be is what bringing empathy, marketing and how it resonates. You know, I want the campaign to be successful, successful. But more importantly, I want customers to be excited about what we’re talking about and engaged with it just as important. I want employees to be excited that say, now we’re talking about something meaningful in our lesson, that to be, again is true empathy when your employees can get behind what you’re doing, right,

Maria Ross  10:31

right. Well, you know, as I’ve always said, culture and brand are two sides of the same coin, and it’s got a, it’s got to live internally and start from the inside out in order to be genuine on the outside. So now, your agency coined the phrase return on empathy, which I love it because I’m all about proving to the skeptics the ROI of empathy, and there have been so many reports out there. One recently that I started citing in my talks, is that nine out of 10, customers state that empathy is the most important factor in customer loyalty. So talk to us about what you define as return on empathy. What does that mean for marketers? And why should they embrace it? And then let’s get into a few of the highlights of the report on empathy that you have available for folks on your website?

Tim Leon  11:20

Sure. So let’s start with a couple of facts that I think build the case for what return on empathy is about 2020. PepsiCo did a study with I think it was Ipsos that Yep. Okay, a couple of things that that was with us consumers, but similar to what you just said, 94% of the respondents said, empathy is necessary for society to thrive. I mean, to me, 94% of the people believed empathy KISSmetrics there for society, they went on to say the half of them said, companies that portray the ads that promote wellbeing, comfort, our companies that we will do business with and take about 2020 well being and comfort, that’s what people needed, they didn’t need to hard sell, they wanted to feel really good about the brands they were working with. And so, to me, I started thinking to myself empathy. You know, empathy is bigger than just, like, feel good, or be companies are experiencing greater customer loyalty. And the final statistic, Maria, that really resonated for me, that was a 2020 Morning consult study that stated, I think it was 85% of respondents said, the companies that display authentic empathy, are companies I’m more apt to buy from, and they are the companies I will stay loyal to, no matter what, I take that and translate it into return on Empathy means if you’re delivering empathy, authentically, and honestly, you’re building customer loyalty protected market share.

Maria Ross  13:15

Yeah, and I think that’s where it comes into play, because that can’t all be marketing’s job, right? That has to be how the company behaves as a whole, because that’s what people are looking for. And, you know, coming from marketing on both the client and agency side, we can do a lot in marketing, we can’t be miracle workers. We can’t wave away bad behavior from our companies. And so marketing and HR, marketing and culture need to be in lockstep to be ensuring that empathy lives from the inside out. So what are our policies? What are our customer service processes? What is our buying process? Like? How do we resolve customer complaints? How do we address negative feedback in the public domain, but all of these things go beyond marketing’s role. And that’s why, you know, again, you can’t just use marketing to erase bad behavior. It’s got to be a system wide, holistic view of how the company operates inside and out.

Tim Leon  14:18

Well, and you bring up a great point, consumers are much more highly sensitive to how companies treat employees, there’s tons of research to say, companies that don’t treat their employees well will suffer in the marketplace because consumers won’t put up with it. They’re highly sensitive to that. So I think you’re right and culture, and how you’re treating employees and what you do about kind of that front end of the business is probably the more important today than well,

Maria Ross  14:48

and it’s more important to Gen Z in terms of being consumers and buyers because at the beginning of the pandemic, many studies were done around brands that were not treating their employees or their communities Well, during the beginning months of the pandemic, and several studies were done by an organization called do something.org. And they found that, you know, we’re talking about 16 and 17 year olds, who were saying, I’m not going to buy from that store because of the way that they treated their employees. So the transparency now is there, and consumers, shoppers buyers, in, you know, younger generations. But you know, we have to remember Millennials are in their 40s. Now, so these are business buyers, these are buyers of cars and houses, they’re looking at the holistic behavior of companies. So let’s get back to marketing, specifically, when, when you did the report, what were those? Were those really the findings? Or was the report also looking for what some companies were doing where they were getting a good return on empathy, so to speak?

Tim Leon  15:54

I’d say yes, we looked at companies, one that comes to mind for me is Rei, who for the last few years, as you well know, closes their business on Black Friday, and the campaign is all about getting out getting away from consumers opt

Maria Ross  16:11

outside.

Tim Leon  16:11

If you look at all the receipts or all of the marketing articles, it was it’s it was brilliant, because it aligns with the values of that brand. But it was also brilliant, because it really, really made a strong statement on what they care about for their employees. And that campaigns being repeated again this year. I’m no economist, but my guess is, they do not suffer because they’re closed on Black Friday.

Maria Ross  16:39

No, actually, I wrote a whole section in the book about that case study, I spoke with their chief customer officer. And they’ve been doing this since I think 2015, I can’t remember how long they’ve been doing it. It came about because of an employee meeting, not a boardroom decision on how to look better in the marketplace. And they, they have reaped nothing but benefits from this campaign and this philosophy. And what was interesting about what the chief customer officer had to say was, it wasn’t actually it sounded crazy. But it wasn’t actually a hard sell when they looked at it against their corporate mission. And they thought and this is what our customers are expecting from us, we’re Co Op, our customers, you know, are part of our company. And if this is truly our mission to help people develop a love of the outdoors, we need to get them outside. So the it has reaped benefits in terms of press, it has reaped benefits in terms of paying members going up, revenue, all the things. So I want to shift gears for a second and talk about, you know, you’ve been talking a lot about since the pandemic but this has actually been a trend that was happening before then because of what I was saying about the buying behaviors of some of the younger generations. So right now, this is a very top of mind topic for marketers of yes, we want to figure out how to inject more empathy into our marketing. And we’re going to talk about some concrete strategies and ideas that you have to offer in a minute. But do you think this is just a fad? Or do you truly believe this is a transformative moment in how we market and sell,

Tim Leon  18:14

I would say, the pandemic precipitated it. But this is a transformative moment. I can pick other societal issues, climate change, sustainability, the economic climate today, racial equity, you can look what’s changed as consumers being highly sensitive to how brands are reacting to what’s going on in the world. That’s transformative moment. Consumers are highly sensitive, and brands that can align like REI, their mission to taking, taking a stand, support it putting their money where their mouth is, I think are going to succeed. Those that don’t will get called out.

Maria Ross  19:02

Right, exactly, I 100% agree. So let’s hear some concrete strategies and ideas on how marketers can effectively use empathy in their marketing and branding efforts. I always share a few I have I have a course available called brandstory breakthrough that talks about how you can use some different techniques to understand and align with your customers. But what are some concrete strategies and ideas that you’ve seen and you talk about with your clients?

Tim Leon  19:32

Sure. The number one strategy we always talk about because it’s something we’ve done is helping organizations find their why. Obviously, Simon Sinek made that very, very popular years ago was start with why but understanding your purpose and mission as an organization. Because to me, that’s again, people don’t buy what you do they buy why you do it. That to me shows empathy. If you can’t express your mission in a way that consumers can feel part of it and feel like they can support really what you’re all about. So finding your why. And that’s something I mean, read the book, watch the video, but I think finding your why to be a step toward truly delivering empathy.

Maria Ross  20:22

Absolutely. And I’m gonna put a link in the show notes to one or two episodes that we’ve done around purpose driven organizations and how they succeed in the market. So thank you for bringing that up.

Tim Leon  20:32

Yeah, please do. The second one is, and this is building community around your back brand. Think about Harley Davidson, Harley Davidson, Davidson owner group. These are passionate fans. They have their own, you know, social media page, think about customer loyalty programs, but finding the people that love your brand, and giving them a channel, a venue, a place to talk about it. Those are the people that are going to write the reviews. But I think, as you know, consumers want to hear from people that understand your brand that are on the same side of the fence as their consumers that love your brand. And finding that community and building it, I think is something every company needs to do in a lot of companies are don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think that can be, that’s not an option. For people. We always say number three is EPA emphasizing the human side of your business. We’re seeing a lot more creative campaigns, we do a lot of video content, customer testimonials that never been probably resonated more than they resonate today. But also employee testimonials. I think of a campaign you’re probably familiar with lush, lush National Art, I’m sorry, lush, natural beauty products that Alex made video series, or it’s their employees showing how these beauty products are made. All natural ingredients, really rarely. But when you watch the spots, what you really come out of is look at how passionate these people are about making this product for me. So I think emphasizing the human side of your business. That could be also getting some your C level people out in front customers PR events, but people want to do business with people they like so I don’t think that can be underestimated. anymore. You talked about something earlier, this isn’t just marketing, but focusing on the entire customer journey, your customer experience, every touchpoint evaluating it for Am I making it more convenient? Am I making it more easy? You mentioned customer service, inbound marketing, all of those things, your processes? What are you doing to make the experience even better, and to me, that’s empathy. That’s really understanding what your customer wants. Number five, the person map people, personalized marketing, we see it, everybody’s got a CRM system, what I would say is not everybody’s probably using it to the potential that it has to really deliver one on one messages that resonate. And I’m not talking about the emails that say, Hey, Tim, I have an opportunity for you. Right, I’m talking about something that can get to a specific need of an audience. On a one on one basis. Yeah, it’s very labor intensive. But that to me, again, is what true empathy is all about in the marketing space.

Maria Ross  23:43

Absolutely. You know, I’ve talked to my clients in the past about just getting out there and talking to their customers and their clients, and like you said, not about their experience only with your product or service. But what are the challenges? What are their goals? What are their fears? What are their values, and understanding where what you offer can augment that can fit into that. And it’s not about finding out what they believe so you can manipulate them, it’s about finding out if this is truly a good product market fit, offering market fit. And then you can echo their words back in your marketing and sales. I talked, I mentioned I work with a lot of tech clients. And I’m sure you’ve faced this as well, where they get so caught up in the jargon and also what their competitors are saying. And yet when you go talk to their customer, how do you describe the product? How do you describe the value you’re getting out of the product, use that wording and be able to be the voice inside their head when other prospects see that? Because if you talk how they are talking to themselves, you have a much better chance of connecting and engaging with them. than if you try to force terminology and jargon down their throats, because that’s what the analysts want to see, or that’s what the press wants to see. It doesn’t matter if you actually want to make sales

Tim Leon  25:11

couldn’t agree more, or you could not. That, to me is that authenticity. You’re looking in there, the bachelor, right? The industry expects you, right? And that really, man that can really resonate and attack at b2b sectors where, oh,

Maria Ross  25:32

well, I mean, and that’s where, you know, that was where my first frustration to ultimately build my own consulting practice came from as being in tech marketing. For a long time, I was so tired of the robotic way we were talking to customers. And it didn’t, it doesn’t matter if it’s b2b or b2c, you’re still selling to humans at the end of the day. And so what is going to resonate for them we buy based on logic and emotion. And it doesn’t matter if you’re a cynical, it developer, there’s still an emotion, there’s still an impact that you want to have. And how can a company tap into that story? I love what you said about being more human in your marketing, because I think, you know, we look at, we look at these amazing, small businesses, for example, that advertise on Instagram or on Facebook. The reason they’re successful is because they’re just people telling their story, and sharing their passion. And that’s why they’re selling millions of skews is because that’s what people want to see. That’s what we mean by authenticity. That’s

Tim Leon  26:34

right. And people want products that are manufactured with passion. They want the people they want to visualize that these are boys that are trying to make the best product. That to me is very, very powerful. Absolutely.

Maria Ross  26:48

Well, thank you so much for this conversation today. And your insights, we’re gonna have all the links in the show notes to your website, Guile Lian marketing communications, where people can also find the return on empathy white paper and download it for themselves. Where you know, for people on the go, we’re gonna have all your links, but where’s the best place they can get in touch with you? Is it the website,

Tim Leon  27:12

website, contact us or please visit my LinkedIn page. Tim Lyon Guylian, marketing communications. I am on LinkedIn all the time. So

Maria Ross  27:26

I will I will respond. And I want to spell the website out for folks. It’s g e i l e o n. Guy, leone.com. And so again, that’s where folks can find the return on empathy report. And also find out more about you and your work. Thank you so much for your time today, Tim, it was a delight to connect with you. And we’ll catch you next time.

Tim Leon  27:49

Right, Maria? Thanks for having me. And I’m gonna look forward to that book coming out in 2020 for the empathy dilemma.

Maria Ross  27:57

Awesome. I love it. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review or share with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Barbara Huelat: Empathy for Dementia Caregivers and Effective Interventions

According to the NIH, an estimated 6.7M Americans 65+ are living with Alzheimer’s dementia. This number could grow to 13.8 million by 2060 barring the development of medical breakthroughs. Today, you’ll learn why dementia is not a disease, but a symptom, and what caregivers go through, experience, and need – especially from their managers and workplace colleagues.

I talk with Barbara J. Huelat about what dementia is, how emotional interventions are more effective than cognitive ones, and how to create more healing environments in hospitals and workspaces. You’ll gain empathy for your colleagues who are dementia caregivers, as Barbara shares her personal experience caring for her mother and husband, and she talks about what workplaces can do to better support caregivers in the office to help them continue to perform and do their best work.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

  • Emotional memories are those with our senses – these memories can reach a person with dementia where language or cognitive memories cannot.
  • It is critical to prepare your helpers and part-time caregivers if you are away to give everyone the best chance for success, much like having a disaster plan.
  • Be flexible, don’t try to change reality, and give information rather than asking questions. You can go far with that, even when there are mistakes and challenges.

Be understanding of what they’re going through. There’s a very large emotional drain on the person. The caregiver is often considered the second patient as their health risks skyrocket while taking care because it’s long-term chronic stress that doesn’t go away like acute stress.

—  Barbara Huelat

About Barbara J. Hiuelat

Barbara J. Huelat is a prominent Human Centric Healthcare Designer, author, and speaker. She has created healing environments and solved health challenges for more than 300 healthcare organizations and serves as a healing environment consultant to healthcare facilities, product manufacturers, academia, institutions, and the architectural design community. By placing humanity at the core, her pioneering mindset proves that human-centric designs impact healing, improve the human experience, affect health outcomes, and are cost-effective.

Ms. Huelat’s latest work, Taming the Chaos of Dementia: A Caregiver’s Guide to Interventions that Make a Difference, provides a compassionate and insightful guide to those facing the tumultuous journey of dementia, offering solace, support, and practical strategies to navigate this challenging path. Currently, she shares human-centric designs globally via lecturers at international conferences, universities, and organizations and through research collaborations with government agencies and universities, contributing to white papers and research articles. Always fascinated with the beauty of science and the science of design, she believes human-centric design experiences can mitigate human misery.

Connect with Barbara Huelat

Website: barbarahuelat.com

X: x.com/huelat92456

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/barbara-huelat-fasid-aahid-edac-89061213

Facebook: facebook.com/barbarajhuelat

Instagram: instagram.com/bhuelat

Book: Taming the Chaos of Dementia: A Caregiver’s Guide to 9 Interventions that Make a Difference

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. According to the National Institutes of Health, an estimated 6.7 million Americans aged 65 and older are living with Alzheimer’s dementia today, the number could grow to 13 point 8 million by 2060 barring the development of medical breakthroughs, and that’s just Alzheimer’s related dementia. There are other dementias related to conditions such as Parkinson’s, stroke, and more. Today, you will learn why dementia is not a disease, but a symptom of what can be a number of conditions and what caregivers go through experience and need, especially from their managers and workplace colleagues. Barbara J. Hewlett is a prominent human centric healthcare designer, author and speaker and has created healing environments and solve health challenges for more than 300 health care organizations, and serves as a healing environment consultant to health care facilities, product manufacturers, academia, institutions and the architectural design community by placing humanity at the core for pioneering mindset proves that human centric designs impact healing, improve the human experience, affect health outcomes, and are cost effective. Barbara has written three books including her latest work taming the chaos of dementia, a caregivers guide to interventions that make a difference, which provides a compassionate and insightful guide to those facing the tumultuous journey of dementia, offering solace, support and practical strategies to navigate this challenging path. Currently, she shares human centric designs globally via lectures at international conferences, universities and organizations and through research collaborations with government agencies and universities, contributing to white papers and research articles. Barbara believes that human centric design experiences can mitigate human misery. Today we talk about what dementia is how emotional interventions are more effective than cognitive ones, how to create more healing environments, both in hospitals, workspaces, and how your current workplace environment may be the reason your people don’t want to return to the office, you’ll gain empathy for your colleagues who are Dementia Caregivers, as Barbara shares her personal experience caring for her mother and husband, and what workplaces can do to better support caregivers in the office to help them continue to perform and do their best work. This is an important conversation, take a listen. Welcome Barbara Hewlett to the empathy edge podcast to give us a little bit of insight into dementia care, and the needs of caregivers who are caring for loved ones with dementia. Welcome to the up at the edge podcast. Thank

Barbara Huelat  03:28

you so much. And thank you for inviting me for this afternoon, and I look forward to it.

Maria Ross  03:34

So tell us a little bit about your story. We just heard your bio, how did you even get into this work? And how did you get into the work of being a healing environment consultant and an expert on dementia and caregiving?

Barbara Huelat  03:48

Okay, well, my career has been in architectural design for health care facilities. So for the past 40 Some years I’ve designed health care facilities for hospitals, clinics, and nursing homes and senior living facilities. But then it’s been the relationship of my personal experiences as a caregiver first with my grandmother with vascular dementia, my mom with dementia from Parkinson’s and my late husband who had Alzheimer’s. So with those, I learned a whole different side of caregiving and the environment or feeling space spaces from a very personal side.

Maria Ross  04:34

Wow. And I can’t imagine there are many people who have not been touched by dementia in their families or their circle. I know I had a maternal grandmother that lived with us in her last years. And I actually didn’t know her without dementia as a child. And so, and I didn’t understand it, and I think that’s probably true of a lot of people who are not sure what they’re dealing with? are they dealing with just someone getting older and forgetting things? Or they’re dealing with someone who’s had a brain injury, that I had a brain injury? It impacted short term memory? Or are they dealing with dementia? So can you please share with us? What is the definition of dementia? And how is it different from things like Alzheimer’s?

Barbara Huelat  05:18

Yes. Well, dementia is an overall term for all types of diseases with cognitive impairment. And so yes, it can be from from a stroke and brain injury from diseases like Parkinson’s, and but the biggest cause of dementia is Alzheimer’s disease. That’s what we’re dealing with today. That is the largest cause. But dementia is actually a symptom. It’s not a disease. But it’s a symptom of all of these diseases that they and the symptoms are quite common, regardless of which disease you have. There’s very little bit of differences. Some are actually treatable, but the majority are not correctable.

Maria Ross  06:08

And I don’t think that’s well known that that’s a symptom, not a disease. I know, for example, when I had my brain aneurysm rupture, I thought that a brain aneurysm was an event. But a brain aneurysm is a thing. And only if it ruptures, does it usually cause major issues? So it sounds like dementia is very similar? Where we we use it in terminology as if it is its own diagnoses? Yes, its own disease.

Barbara Huelat  06:35

It’s very common people asked the difference. Well, what’s the difference between dementia and ultimates? Is it the same thing? And no, it’s it is it is part of the disease, but it is not the same thing. And you really can’t, it’s used interchangeably, but it doesn’t work that way. And so when

Maria Ross  06:57

you talk about your new book that not so new now, but it came out last November, taming the chaos of Dementia Caregivers guide to interventions that make a difference, what are caregiver interventions? And why are they necessary? Well,

Barbara Huelat  07:12

it could that’s a great question, thank you. Be intervention is something that a caregiver can do. It’s a positive, actionable item, that something that you can do. We think of most interventions like pharmaceutical or surgical or PT, these are interventions to change outcomes. But there are so many interventions that caregivers can do that don’t fall in those categories. And that’s because dementia is not a disease, like we talked about earlier, it’s a symptom. And the things that are hard to deal with are the symptoms. That’s what makes the diseases so difficult, because they are disruptive behaviors, they are hard to manage, you can’t give them a pill to stop it. And understanding really how dementia works. And how it impacts the memory is really crucial. And it’s one of the first things that we need to do to understand dementia. When we talk about cognitive impairment that we said is the primary symptom of dementia, we’re talking about memory, cognitive brain is our our data, the things we learn through life, you know, the math, the spelling, the language skills, but they’re also the filters that we have, we’ve learned that this is correct. And this is an incorrect way of working or being. So dementia impacts those cognitive impairments. But on a positive side, there is also the emotional memory in our brains. And dementia doesn’t affect this as much, really not until the end. And so the emotional part of the memory is that pivotal portal that caregivers can have to reach those with dementia. So

Maria Ross  09:19

give us an example of that. What would it What do you mean by emotional memory? And what are some of those interventions that caregivers especially caregivers, listening who are taking care of someone in their life in dementia,

Barbara Huelat  09:30

those emotional memories or those with the senses, our sight, what we see what we smell what we hear an example a great example where there’s a great deal of research is that on music, how music can reach a person with dementia, where language in that language is a cognitive skill. Music is an emotional attribute. So when we use music and art and color and tact Little things, fuzzy blankets of funny puppies, various emotional things that trigger the emotion, you can get a response, even when cognitive leveling is really not available to us.

Maria Ross  10:15

That’s fascinating. And I know, I know, I’ve seen research around music and the power of music and not just even with dementia patients, but with autism with other with other. I don’t want to say diseases because autism isn’t really disease, but other afflictions that occur where sometimes there’s parts of our brains that we can’t access, again, in sort of a logical way, in effect based way. And so being able to access that emotional portion makes a lot of sense. And so were were you aware of that when you were in the caretaking phase, as you mentioned? Or was this did this come later?

Barbara Huelat  10:54

Yes, and no, I think I first became aware of that, in designing facilities, and health care design. When I talk about in my early work, early books, healing environments, it’s about the emotional connection to Being Well, staying well. And it’s about how, how healthcare institutions often don’t make us feel, well, they’re very intimidating, they’re scary. They’re terrifying. So how do you transform a medical environment to help the person heal, and to be able to move beyond their illness or surgery or wherever they’re in the hospital. And so I learned that there’s a connection there early, but I didn’t really realize how profound it was until I was a one on one with my mom was trying to climb a fence out of the nursing home, or leading a coup to get the other residents to leave with her, or my husband, who was throwing sticks over the fence at a neighbor. how important the emotional aspect was to connect with and connect with really what they were trying to express that did not have the cognitive abilities to deal with it. So what what are some

Maria Ross  12:17

of those? What are some of those tips around creating a healing environment? What were some of the things that you did in your design,

Barbara Huelat  12:24

in the design will use color as intuitive Wayfinding, for example, help people get through a hospital system, using art and music, from the lobby through the procedures, using aromatherapy, for example, in MRIs to help the body to be able to deal with the noise and the terror of going through some of these procedures. So I use elements of this throughout my practice. And when it when it came to dealing with them personally, I was able to modify them to be very personal to impact the person. So my husband was a great photographer and an architect. And when he had dementia, what harmed him was giving him a box of photographs to sort through, and it couldn’t tell you who they were in the pictures. But it gave him a lot of satisfaction going through his own photos. So by combining some of the elements that I knew and personally adapted to, yeah, he had more reward and pleasure from from those last days. Well,

Maria Ross  13:42

I wonder if there’s a lesson to be learned here. We often have talked about the redesign of office space, especially pre pandemic, a lot of workplaces. were redesigning workplaces to be more collaborative and innovative and inspiring and reconfiguring. Using space and using furniture and using layout as a way to create more innovation create more productivity, do you still think there’s space for that in the workplaces that people are going back to but also in the workplaces? They surround themselves in at home? What do you think are some mistakes that offices or people with home offices might be making that they don’t even realize are detrimental to their mental state?

Barbara Huelat  14:30

though? That’s a great question. Yes, I know in my work in office design, but the some of the healing factors in that was getting as much of nature in as possible. Access to Windows, everybody wants to be in an office with a window, why not just for status, it feels better, they can see the light of day if it impacts their circadian rhythm that’s going to impact their productivity. Now Nature is essential for us feeling good, being able to be more productive, more engaging, and for all those creative acts that we need in part of our workplace. And, and yet, there are still many windowless offices people work in. And that is, that really impacts their productivity.

Maria Ross  15:21

So I always, I always feel for the people, especially during lockdown that, you know, like, if I had had the studio apartment that I had, in my early 20s, I would have gone stir crazy because I had a window, but it was facing a wall of the building right next to us, there was no room to separate work and life, not a lot of natural light. And you know, people have had to work in that environment for a long time. But then on the other hand, there’s people that have really outfitted their home offices as an example, to be an oasis for them to be a place where they are, where they are their most productive, when they where they feel inspired, where they feel invigorated and where they can separate their home life from their personal life a little bit by separating their work area in their home.

Barbara Huelat  16:09

And, and also, I think, the reluctance of piece people going back to work, though, there’s, I mean, there’s empty offices all over, especially in the big cities, people don’t want to give up on windows for their pets, or their cat can sit on their desktop. And there’s elements in that, so much of it comes down to the nature and the biophilic need that we have to be one with nature, it just makes us feel good. And we’re going to be more productive when we feel good,

Maria Ross  16:45

right. And there’s so there are a lot of companies investing a lot of time and thought into reimagining their workplaces. Companies like box companies like Salesforce like Google, where they’re trying to make it a very attractive and nurturing and innovative environment, to encourage people to come back into the office and collaborate together. So I love that this is something that people are paying attention to, and leaders are paying attention to. I want to shift gears because I’d love to talk about, you know, your work is so much with supporting caregivers. And first of all, can you give us an insight into what caregivers are facing caregivers for dementia patients? What are they facing? What are they dealing with on a daily basis? Because what I want to segue into is how we can better support our employees or our colleagues that work who we know or might not know, are caring for a dementia patient. So can you give us a little behind the scenes of what their worlds are like and what are they dealing with in addition to having to work or lead teams or

Barbara Huelat  17:51

produce? Aha, that’s another great question. Caregivers have a lot on their plate, especially the primary caregiver. They’re the one that’s responsible. It’s like being a parent, and you have the child at home and you have to deal with daycare. I know when I was working and and my husband had dementia and was at home. I had to find caregivers to stay with them each day. One day a caregiver showed up drunk, what was I going to do? And you know, do you call in sick? Or do you bring him into the office like people do with children? And I think there has to be that understanding because caregivers are going to increase and everybody’s going to be a caregiver here and there. If not a primary caregiver, they’re going to be asked by a neighbor, hey, I’ve got to go into the office. Can you stay with Joe this afternoon, I really are I have an important meeting, I have to do this. And I need some help. So your caregivers, you might think of them as like parents of small children, they cannot be left alone. Once the the person with dementia enters into the phase where they can no longer do the activities of daily living on their own. They have to have a caregiver. And so that is that’s a piece that I think offices and corporations need to understand that there’s going to be an increase of caregivers out there. They have to provide meals, transportation, they have to get them to the doctor, they have to provide entertainment for them to do while you’re gone. They have to have help dressing they need up taking their meds, they need help keeping them in the house and just all of these activities together, in addition to taking care of their finances. So they could no longer do those on their own. So it’s I think the best way to think of it as taking care of a small child right and what that means needs to do while working

Maria Ross  20:01

well. And it’s extra complexity because you are dealing with an adult. And like you said, the issue of finances, things like that. And, and the issues of the blowback of that, especially if someone doesn’t, can’t properly assess their own cognitive state, you’re dealing with that. But also, I think there’s a assumption that if you are, if you’re caring for an adult, there might be a small window of opportunity that you could leave them by themselves. And that’s just not the case. You can’t you know, it’s, it’s, it’s not even like with a kid that you could give an iPad, there’s, it’s more complexity, and what you’re describing is a whole other full time job. And I think that that’s what we need to remember, not to mention, the emotional toll of watching who might have been appear to you or apparent to you previously, is now someone that you have to take care of you, we expect that as parents that we’re gonna have to take care of our child. What happens when the person that used to take care of us is now the person that we have to take care of that role reversal? Takes a big emotional toll, I’m sure. And so, on to my second question, what do you think workplaces and leaders could be doing to better support caregivers who are working for them? So that, you know, we talked before we started recording that? Yes, I mean, time off is great. But they also need support while they’re working. So what are some things you suggest, one of

Barbara Huelat  21:31

the big things that actually jazz was was most helpful for me was to allow me to bring my loved one to the office occasionally, not all the time, but when an emergency happened, to be respectful of when you need to work at home, then not I mean, I think you don’t want to always work at home and the caregiver needs to get out it’s Well, I was always grateful to have an office to go to to help clear my mind. Also, things that could help clear the mind times of respite. Just being understanding of what you’re going through, it is a there’s a very large emotional drain on the person. Person also has trouble sleeping at night. Usually, counseling therapy is really, really helpful. Because the caregiver is often considered the second patient, their health risk skyrocket while taking care of because it’s a long term chronic stress, it doesn’t go away like like an acute stress. So in understanding being able to have access to therapy and counseling, depression, anxiety is really important. And just having access to knowing who is a caregiver, just like snowing, you have a child that’s coming home from school at three o’clock, and the parent needs to check on that make sure that they got to their destination or their after school activity or whatever. There are times that the person though the the worker will need to check in at home and with their loved one, and be on the phone when there is seemingly a crisis. And it may not be this. But I remember one time I got a call and says Mom won’t come in the house. She doesn’t think it’s her house. How do you deal with this? Right? Right? You have to take the call and talking on through it and and calling my brother to help him talk her through it. How do you deal with that? Continued? issue? So I think being understanding, being open being creative, not you don’t even know what you can and is a possibility. And that’s what some of these interventions that I talked about in the book, and how we get a person through that particular disruptive behavior or mill? Or what

Maria Ross  24:09

is some of your best advice around someone who is caretaking for someone with dementia and they’re at the office? And they get that kind of call? Is there any advice you can give to anyone listening now that might find themselves in that situation? What might be the best way that they can approach it and sort of coach themselves through that situation? Let’s say they’re in a meeting and they’re in the middle of presenting and they get a call? What do you what’s, what are some suggestions you have?

Barbara Huelat  24:38

Okay, the probably the biggest suggestion that anybody can do, and it’s important that they have these conversations with the time caregiver, before they go into the office is what are the effective interventions for this, your particular loved one because it’ll be different with your mom or your spouse or My grandmother, whoever it is, but going through and the most effective intervention is a positive distraction. And a positive distraction works in all dementia is because the person with dementia has their short term memory is gone. So is if you can move them away from the awful event that is happening momentarily. In a few minutes, they’ll be okay. Like for my mom that wouldn’t come in the house is nice, I just did take her for a walk around the block and talk about everything that she sees. And you get to her house, and this is her front door. And this is her swing that she used with dad and talk about them. And by the time she gets to the door, walk right in and aborted because she forgot that she thought that wasn’t her house. And so by distracting the person using that intervention of short term memory, and relying on it, it almost always works or at times, nothing works. Right, right.

Maria Ross  26:14

But that communication with your caregiver or with your part time caregiver, or your part time support is so important that it almost sounds like I might be dumbing this down a little bit. But it almost sounds like having a disaster plan. Like if this should happen. While I’m presenting my big meeting today. Here’s what you might want to go through, you know, almost having that that sort of disaster recovery plan in place so that they can maybe do all the interventions they can do before it’s time that you’ve got to leave and you’ve got to come. Right,

Barbara Huelat  26:47

those conversations are so imperative. I remember, I went on a retreat, much needed retreat while I was caregiving. And the first time I did this, I didn’t leave those instructions with the my support team. And they call several times during the retreat, and the retreat was absolutely almost worthless, because I was so interrupted on the retreat. I did it again. Am I prep the caregiver, do not call me if this happens. Paul, my daughter, Paul, my brother, and I gave her a whole list of things to do. And that important meeting coming up a caregiver, do not call me between two and four o’clock in the afternoon today. Major happens, this is what you need

Maria Ross  27:44

to do the take these steps try these interventions. Yeah.

Barbara Huelat  27:47

And whenever I used a notebook and put those everything in the notebook and whoever was caregiving that day, and often it was not the same person, right? Get it from an agency, somebody’s sick, or something else, there were alternatives when they needed to have the same information. But your disaster plan? Perfect. That is? Well,

Maria Ross  28:13

and I think that that’s another challenge to point out is that unlike childcare, which is normally a little bit more predictable, you have the same nanny or the same daycare agency or the provider, that can be very different and stressful. If you have a worker who is the caregiver for someone with dementia, if they are relying on agencies that staff differently, they’re relying on part time support, if they’re not necessarily relying on a consistent, relative or friend. To do that. That’s just another layer of stress and complexity that these caregivers are dealing with. Yes. So what is your as we kind of wrap up here? What is your what are some final gems you want to share with us about how to make life and work easier for caregivers of dementia patients? Okay,

Barbara Huelat  29:04

but I think the best advice is to go with the flow. And that sounds overly simple. But you’re not going to you’re not going to cure the dementia, no matter how badly you want it and needed and to work with the way the person with dementia feels things and their reality, not yours. Not to question because the person with dementia, that cognitive side isn’t working. They don’t know how to respond to a question. And often questions as well meaning as they are can lead to really disruptive behaviors. Simple things like what do you want to eat? They get overwhelmed. Yeah, it’s too big of a question. And putting something in front of them that Oh, this smells good. I heard you love the cinnamon on the oatmeal. And it’s delicious today and giving them information about it is so much better than asking questions. So don’t ask questions. Don’t try to change the reality. And use emotions, especially the senses and nature are real positive lengths, as well as positive distractions. And you can you can go really far with that, and there will be mistakes, we all right, there will be meltdowns and challenges, but you don’t, if you realize you’re really not going to change it, and you can make it better, then that’s the way you want to go the path of least resistance.

Maria Ross  30:51

Exactly. I love that go with the flow. Well, thank you so much. We’re gonna have all your links in the show notes, and especially a link to your book, taming the chaos of Dementia Caregivers guide to interventions that make a difference. Barbara, thank you so much for coming on today. As I mentioned, we’re gonna have all your links in the show notes. But for folks on the go, where’s one place, they can find out more about you and your work? Probably

Barbara Huelat  31:14

my website. And there’s also a lot of helpful resources on my website, books that are important organizations, focus groups, a lot of resources for a for those caregivers at my website is very simple. It’s www and my name Barbara hewlett.com. And

Maria Ross  31:37

that’s Hu E, la,

Barbara Huelat  31:39

la T.

Maria Ross  31:41

Wonderful. And again, we’ll have those links in the show notes. But thank you so much for your time today and your insights.

Barbara Huelat  31:46

Thank you Maria with such a pleasure. And thank

Maria Ross  31:50

you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, rate and review and share it with a friend or colleague and until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind