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A beloved economy. Doesn’t that just sound like an economic ecosystem you want to be part of? Well, it can be. There are organizations out there who have innovated HOW they do work and broken out of business as usual – to stellar results. And the great news is that everyone can contribute to practicing a beloved economy – reorienting how we work to share power and unlocking well-being, meaning, and connection.

Joanna Cea and Jess Rimington are co-authors of Beloved Economies: Transforming How We Work. They spent seven years researching the common traits of successful beloved economies across diverse teams and enterprises. Today Joanna  shares what is a beloved economy and how to transform business as usual in a “loveless” economy. We discuss the role of “bad actors” in breakout innovation, and Joanna digs into two of the seven practices – seeking difference and trusting there is time – and explains why they work and how they can be applied.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• The way we work together matters – and it is a potent force for change, not just making the work environment a warm and fuzzy place.
• We need leaders to step up and take ownership of doing something different than what has been done before. People want to be doing things in a different way but are often too afraid to speak up.
• The rules are created by society. If we don’t like them, we can work together to change them.

“The economy is something we all make and remake every single day. Yes, there are big structural forces at play, but there’s also the accumulation of 1000 little decisions and actions that we each make every day.” —  Joanna L. Cea

About Joanna Levitt Cea, Co-Author, Beloved Economies

Joanna Cea is dedicated to reimagining investment and funding practices to lift up the well-being of all. She has worked in community-driven efforts to stop destructive investments that threaten local livelihoods and ecosystems, and she has also helped launch solutions that enable communities to determine our own economic futures. Joanna led the human rights organization International Accountability Project for eight years, and served as founding director of the Buen Vivir Fund with Thousand Currents.

About Jess Rimington, Co-Author, Beloved Economies

Jess Rimington is a next economy strategist focused on the design and ethics of emerging post-capitalisms. Her practice and research is grounded in historical analysis, accessible truth-telling, and present-day experimentation. Jess’s work is informed by over a decade of experience leading two global organizations–as both an Executive Director and Managing Director–building cross-cultural staff teams with innovative work cultures rooted in power-sharing.

Connect with Joanna L. Cea and Jess Rimington:

Beloved Economies Website: https://www.belovedeconomies.org/

Book: Beloved Economies: https://www.belovedeconomies.org/book

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Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. A beloved economy, doesn’t that just sound like an economic ecosystem you want to be a part of? Fact is it can be. There are organizations out there who have innovated how they do work, and broken out of business as usual, to stellar results. And the great news is that everyone can contribute to practicing a beloved economy. reorienting, how we work to share power, and unlocking well being meaning and connection. Joanna, Cea and Jess Remington are co authors of the book, beloved economies transforming how we work, they spent seven years researching the common traits of successful beloved economies across diverse teams and enterprises. Jess and Joanna both served as a visiting scholar with Stanford University’s Global Project Center, where they co facilitated research with more than 200 collaborators to identify co creative practices that awaken next economies. Their research led to identifying seven common practices as a framework to cultivate economic imagination, contributing to and building on visions of collaborators. These practices can help you reimagine work. Today, Joanna is here to share what is a beloved economy and how to transform business as usual in a loveless economy. Joanna is dedicated to reimagining investment and funding practices to lift up the well being of all, she’s worked in community driven efforts to stop destructive investments that threaten local livelihoods and ecosystems. And she’s also helped launch solutions that enable communities to determine their own economic futures. Joana led the human rights organization international Accountability Project for eight years and served as founding director of theBuen Vivir fund with Thousand Currents. Her co author Jess Remington, is a next economy strategist focused on the design and ethics of emerging post capitalism’s her practice and research is grounded in historical analysis, accessible truth telling, and present day experimentation. Today, Joanna and I discussed the role of bad actors in breakout innovation. And she digs into two of the seven practices highlighted in their book, seeking difference and trusting there is time and explains why they work and how they can be applied. Mostly, this discussion will inspire you to stop waiting and start transforming the way your organization gets work done. Take a listen. Welcome Joanna Cea, co author of the book Beloved Economies: Transforming How We Work, which you co authored with Jess Remington, welcome to the empathy edge today to talk about beloved economies.

04:26

Thank you so much, Maria, for having me here.

Maria Ross  04:29

And I love this topic, obviously, which is why it’s such a great fit for the podcast because I truly believe we need to change the way that we work, especially given that we spend the bulk of our time at work. So let’s get right to it. And let’s talk about what you mean by the term beloved economies.

Joanna L. Cea  04:46

Hmm. It’s a very good question. And it’s one that doesn’t have a quick one liner answer. And I think it’s hard to explain what we mean without also contrasting it. With the dominant economy that we’re in today, which we ended up describing in the book as the loveless economy. And because this is the water we’re all swimming in and have been swimming in for so long, it’s hard to realize that anything else could be possible. But the way we kind of break things down in the book is looking at business as usual, which we operate in right now. And the way that it, the whole structure of our current manifestation of capitalism in the US is rooted in maximizing the accumulation of profit for a few in a way that actually ends up feeling pretty loveless for everyone involved. And the what we explore with beloved economies, and I’ll say in a moment who shared that framing with us, is the possibilities to still be successful and thriving. In metrics measured by business as usual, you know, when it comes to financial success and resilience, and exceptionally high quality products and high retention on your team, and also be achieving things that do make life feel more beloved, the teams and groups that we followed in the research, all we’re achieving kinds of success that people involved, not just the staff, but stakeholders, community, members, clients, whoever, many people involved were describing as bringing more purpose and sense of connection, and even joy. And the question that Jess and I really started with that began this journey many years ago was, if something else is possible, why are we so often trapped in very draining harmful modes of work, and what is possible when we innovate out of them. And so we ended up looking for examples of kind of bright spots of entities that were really departing from mainstream ways of work in their field in a significant way, and who are achieving kinds of success that felt very beloved to those involved, and that journey, and what we found and what we ended up kind of surfacing together with all those groups is what became the book that is now beloved economies.

Maria Ross  07:24

So when you were doing your research, did you find that people were using that term of Beloved, were they talking about love when they were describing where they worked? Or what they enjoyed? Or what motivated them? How did you come up with that term?

Joanna L. Cea  07:37

So we thank you for that question, Maria, because very importantly, as we lag in the book, we did not come up with that term. We were several years into the research, when we learned about the work of Dr. Virgil a Wood, who is an economic activist, and theologian and educator in his 90s, who has been working on these issues since his involvement in the civil rights movement in the 1960s. In the US, and Dr. Wood upon hearing about our work and finding said, it sounds to me, like what you’re describing is a beloved economy. And we were both just instantly haunted and compelled by that frame. Because, you know, it of course, links to Beloved Community, which Dr. Martin Luther King and so many others spoke to. And it also it’s such a provocative kind of dissonance, you know, like how could beloved and economy go together. And something that Dr. would emphasize, which was also something we were coming to in our work is a beloved economy is not like a top down prescription that is exactly, you know, this mechanism and model, it’s more something that emerges from the bottom up, and is deeply informed by the way we work together. And by new possibilities for care and shared ownership, and different models of ways that wealth and the benefits of working together can be distributed, that make the economy feel more like an ecosystem and less like something We’re surviving every day.

Maria Ross  09:20

I love that idea of making it an ecosystem and not just something to be survived because that is the tragedy to me is that we talked about this before we started recording this idea of this is where we’re spending the bulk of our time exactly. Shouldn’t it be a place that’s nourishing us and where we’re able to bring our full selves and where we’re able to thrive and collaborate and I often talk about, you know, the workplace being a playground for developing the skill of empathy because it’s an auto immunity for us to practice. When we’re in an environment where there is so much give and take. There is you know, there are so many diverse individuals with different needs and different goals and different desires. And so I love the idea of let us it would be so great to stop looking at work as this drudgery that we survive until we go home at the end of the day, or the end of the shift. And I know that’s a luxury for some people. But if we could adopt this idea that this, what I call the both and, and I talked about it in my book, like we can be compassionate and competitive, we can have cashflow, and compassionate and we can have ambition meshed with kindness. Why do you think and in your research? What did you find to be the reason why even with all the research, even with all the data, you know, I had a guest previously that talked about all the data points around how well purpose driven organizations do versus ones that don’t have a clear purpose? I feel like all the data and research is there. And yet, we’re still operating in this, you know, kind of what you talked about this loveless model? What do you think is the hesitancy? Is it just fear? Is it they don’t know what to do? Is it just this is the way it’s always been done?

Joanna L. Cea  11:08

Her? It’s a very important question. And it’s one we did look at a lot. And one of the chapters in the book explores that in particular one called they may try to stop you. Because we found there’s a lot of fear and resistance to reimagining how we work, both before you start. And then most baffling sometimes in the cases that we were following groups were starting to be incredibly successful, based on big departures, going more toward purpose and empathy and care, as you’re saying, and then, you know, someone would shut it down, or a few people would freak out. And even if it This success was in their best interest. And so really looking at where this comes from, you know, there’s no definitive answer. But depending on who we are in our identities, and know many of us in our lineage, or communities lineage, have histories of economic alternative efforts being very violently shut down. And we also are all operating in a system where, you know, we emphasize that the economy is something we all make, and remake and reify every single day. So yes, there’s big structural forces at play. But there’s also the accumulation of 1000 little decisions and actions that we each make every day. But that’s not a message we get often we tend to be a formally taught event that the economy is this, you know, monolithic thing and structure external to us that we need to operate in its rules, or we won’t survive, you know, and the most exciting kind of big picture takeaway of our research, because many of these groups we followed for as long as seven years through the course of a pandemic, everything that the last few years have held. And we can see and quantify that when teams successfully reimagine and overhaul how they work in ways that center shared power and purpose and well being, it’s actually a very important force for economic transformation, we saw a ripple effect happening, like for many of these groups, their success, then embodying that something else is indeed possible, ended up sparking shifts in norms in their sector, it ended up like reinforcing labor, organizing efforts, even changing what can be on the table for policy. And so the kind of overall call to action, if you will, from our research and book is, hey, the way we work together matters. It’s not just a warm fuzzy for SNR teams, it’s actually a really potent force for change. And yes, we all have different kinds of latitude and different constraints, you know, facing how easily we’re able to question the rules. But generally, we all have a lot more latitude than we think we do. And this the last thing I’ll say on that is, especially right now, well, it’s very fresh, having come out of the pandemic, you know, we all just witnessed, we can rewrite the rules of business as usual, overnight on mass. And so what if we really lean into that on our teams, but rewrite them in a way that enables us to step into being examples of economies that do feel more like love?

Maria Ross  14:27

Right, right. And that’s, you know, so much loss, it’s hard to talk about the silver lining the pandemic, but it’s amazing what we’re all the things we say we can’t do until we’re forced to do them. And wouldn’t it be great if we, as humans can learn our lessons time after time after time and say, maybe if we can be proactive about this transformation? If we didn’t have to have some horrible catalyst that made us transform that forced us to budge? It would be so great and I feel like we come out of crises And we say that that’s how we’re going to operate. And then we get complacent again, as human beings, right. And I know that’s just, that’s the way our brains work, our brains don’t like change, and just the way it is of the human condition, but I know the kinds of changes you’re talking about, can lead to great transformation. When you talk about the approach you take, and you talk about the most seven practices in the book, in order to break out of business as usual, that can be really scary to someone who is like, yeah, I want to do it. But oh, my gosh, where do I start? And what if I’m the only person, you know, I’m just one person within this giant organization or giant company. So you know, like, I talk a lot about spheres of influence, and that you can become a model, you can almost create a micro culture within your team or your sphere of influence. What do you say in terms of someone listening to this going, I want to create a culture like that and an environment like that. But how do I even start? Is there a way you can give us a little bit of a summation, or maybe one or two of the principles because we want folks to pick up the book? But where are some starting points and access points for people within those seven practices?

Joanna L. Cea  16:12

Sure. Great question. And I will share that No. And I’ll also say we because we get this question. So often, we included a mini kind of bonus chapter at the end of the book called Getting Started, because that’s the hardest thing is getting started. And you mentioned the seven practices that we found in our research. And we did not expect to find those we weren’t going out trying to find you know, a list of best practices or a code or something. We were just exploring what happens when groups, you know, really boldly breakout a business as usual and are successful what’s happening there. But over time, we ended up realizing that even though the group’s in our we called it our CO learning community, so the cases we followed became part of the active participatory research group, everyone was doing very different things in their day to day work, we have everything from health care providers in the cardiology department, to a youth led social movement organization, to a tech startup, to educational groups to disaster recovery planning. I mean, it’s all over the map. So the language everyone’s talking about of their day to day activities is very different. But we started to realize there was a deeper underlying pattern in how they were working. That was very similar. And we were actually able to do a first in person gathering of folks in the color and community way back in 2016, and then keep the conversation going. And that’s how we together kind of did a sense making process to surface what are these deeper patterns, underlying list access of these groups, and you know, how they’re working. So we like to emphasize, you know, this isn’t a kind of abstract framework that Jess and I just cooked up, it’s actually kind of a backward sensemaking thing collectively surfaced by all these interesting organizations. And finding those seven practices and how strongly all these groups felt about them. That’s what compelled us to write the book. Because it felt like wow, there actually is a framework for how we all can get started and work together and have a greater chance of coming to the kinds of outcomes and ways of work that these groups are that feel really repetitive and replenishing in the context of our current economy. So I’ll just list the practices here. And then I’ll talk about one or two, but in no particular order, they are shared decision making power, prioritize relationships, reckon with history, seek difference, source from multiple ways of knowing, prototype early and often. And trust there is time. And maybe for your question of getting started, I’ll pick two I’ll do seek difference and trust there’s time. So I think one we often kind of don’t underestimate the power of seeking difference and seeking difference in the way that we call the groups in our cool learning community breakout actors that these folks do. So this isn’t just you know, check the box dei work is very important. And we also know some people do it in a problematically check the box kind of way, but we really saw breakout actors be courageous and who they’re bringing to the table together and in the way they’re making that table feel and operate so that everyone really can bring their brilliance and insights and opinions to the table. Whether those are factory managers and factory floor workers or suppose it beneficiaries of a disaster recovery process being brought in as designers are often when we feel stuck like well, I don’t know where the answer is the simple act of bringing together a group that broadly reflects the kinds of lived experience and roles and people who are impacted by our work or the question at hand. That, in of itself unlocks all kinds of wisdom.

Maria Ross  20:16

And it’s also getting a different perspective on the problem. If I’m in a room with people that just see things the way I do, there’s so much I missed, there’s so many other facets of the challenge, or the idea that because of my own experience, or our own experience, we’re missing out on we’re missing out on that innovation and creativity. And, you know, I’ve interviewed several people on the on the show that have talked about this idea of, you know, smart leaders, you know, hire people that say no to them, smart leaders hire people that say, Well, why don’t we do it this way, or, you know, they ban the words like we’ve always done it this way, their vocabulary, because they know that they come up with better solutions. And it might take a little longer to get there. But they waste less time, you know, on the long run. So I love that that’s actually a trait within these amazing breakout teams. And I love the term breakout actors, as a way to identify people who might have often been told in their work environment, they’re too much. They’re a squeaky wheel, right? Not that I’ve ever heard that. But you know, it’s a nice framing of like, the people that are going to challenge you and challenge the decisions. It’s actually good to tight those things with fire to test ideas to test processes. And because in the end, you come up with a better forged product, you come up with a better forged process. So I love that that’s actually a key. I like in what you’re saying to finding what like the common recipe was across all these teams, like what was the what were the you know, it was like, a dash of paprika. Everybody had it? You know what I mean? And so I love that that is actually one that very clearly came through in your research was this idea of like, once again, proving differences good if we embrace it in the right way. And that’s really where I see empathy playing a role is empathy is the fuel that helps difference work. Otherwise, you’re just a bunch of people disagreeing with each other and, and not thinking your point of view is valid over mine, or what have you. Empathy makes it all run. So sorry to interrupt you, I was just so excited by that being one little is what are your main practices? So? So what does that look like in action, like that particular practice? And then I do want to talk about the trust there as time because I think that’s an important one. But we’re what are some ways, you know, someone’s listening, they are a leader, they’re in a company. And they know, you know, from like, you were saying they need to work on D IB initiatives. But what are some ways they can start to seek difference within the teams they have now and start to put foundations for the future in place to start creating that beloved, economy within their organization?

Joanna L. Cea  23:00

You know, no formula for this. But one of the kind of simple practices we saw across breakout actors was, rather than just having one person who’s in charge of ensuring the EI or you know, that it’s really about whatever the key question or issue is at hand, asking multiple people who else needs to be here, who isn’t here right now? Who is impacted by this question, we’re asking by this work that we’re doing. And in kind of a meta way, you seek difference even in seeking difference, right? Like you ask a variety of people in a variety of positions in the organization, what kind of lived experience, job experience, training, whatever, you know, they think needs to be there. And sometimes that in itself, really opens up some new ideas. And then I think just that a number of the groups too, we saw kind of take these steps in widening circles. So you’d, you know, bring an initial group together and then think, collectively, both who else needs to be there? And also, how do we need to be inviting people in during this process so that it is really set up for each person to feel safe and be able to give their full meaningful contribution? Because I’m sure we’ve all seen that mistake done a lot of times to where good effort at recruitment, but not enough effort at process for it to be functional. But then hearing that I know can kind of feel paralyzing like, Oh, what if I do it wrong? What and again, it’s like if we kind of share that and we bring together even if it’s a small group, but with diverse perspectives to help think through that together. We’ve seen that be an effective baseline. So I love this

Maria Ross  24:47

concept of the other principle about trust. There is time because I mean, time is such an enemy of time crunch is such an enemy of innovation of creativity of rethinking the way that we do Do things, because we’re constantly feeling and I think part of it is a narrative, we tell ourselves that we’re short on time. And it was good talk to us a little bit about that principle and how it manifested in the research and in the CO learning groups.

Joanna L. Cea  25:13

Sure. This was actually the last practice that came into view, if you will. And then once we saw it, it was like, oh, yeah, yeah.

Maria Ross  25:23

For everyone, we need to that needs to be a seventh one. Yeah,

Joanna L. Cea  25:26

yes. And it’s the most challenging. I mean, for me, for all, it’s so wrong for exactly the reasons you said. And, you know, we open the that chapter in the book about that practice, saying, you know, this sounds so hard in the context in which so many of us literally feel starved for enough time, I mean, people working multiple jobs, deadlines, having very real consequences, if you miss them, so it’s, this principle isn’t about a idealized like, oh, just live a more spacious life, you know, take time, it’s more about kind of alluding to what you said earlier, Maria, like the go slow to go fast, it can feel hard to even carve out time for a conversation about how we might want to change a process or make it work better for effectively seeking difference or whatever. But when you create that time, and focus on kind of the fundamentals of how we work together in a way that are very transaction Do do do achieve achieved, achieved culture doesn’t usually let us do the results that come out, make it very worthwhile. So it’s this kind of paradox of you let go of a quick means to an end, we have operating to actually then get to an even more meaningful end. And what a lot of breakout actors talk about with this practice. It’s not just about, you know, pushing back to create time for this thinking about how we work for, you know, the time it takes to define what each of these practices will mean for us, and how we are going to activate them in our groups. But it’s also about when you do that, and attune to these things, people tend to kind of drop into a different quality of presence. So it’s both about that, you know, yes, the number of minutes we set aside, but it’s also kind of creating space for profound things that enable us to attune in a different way and even tap into different parts of our insight and innovation. And, yeah, that deeply fuel our work and help kind of reinforce people realizing Wait, it is possible, and in fact, imperative to create time together like this.

Maria Ross  27:44

Yeah, and I think that’s such an important aspect. When we talk about social and emotional intelligence, when we talk about building meaningful relationships at work. When we talk about forming friendships at work, we often see those things as distracting from the work that needs to be done, when those are the very things that enable the work to be done. And no matter how many times we try to tell people, it just seems like you said in the midst of deadlines in the midst of like, order clothes in the midst of Oh, our sales numbers are flagging, what are we going to do to you know, bandaid things, right now, we don’t have time for team meetings, we don’t have time for you know, mentoring, we don’t have time for all these things. But those are the very things that enable you to get through the tough times. And especially if you can be proactive to build those foundations first. And I love what you’re saying, because it’s almost like setting the tone as a leader, have that mindset of like, No, we have enough time. This was the meeting we were going to have but clearly this has come up. We’re going to address this now. And you know, we’re going to talk about different things that we might be, you know, especially right now with like, for example, so many companies doing layoffs, it’s like what is important to shore up and keep those relationships and that community intact, so that it can continue to function. And what I’m seeing is the smart leaders are making time for that in the midst of chaos, finding a way to make time for that. And I know that, you know from my own personal experience, maybe you can relate to this is as someone who’s very type A and very just like go go go. I did always appreciate those people in the meeting who sort of didn’t say anything for a while. And then would speak in a very, you know, even just speak in a very measured way. Like they would just take the temperature of the whole room down so that we can actually take a breath and think clearly. So I was really appreciated them and in the end, right? You’re like, Oh, someone like, you know, gave us the proverbial slap in the face to calm down. Right, actually, you know, someone I had on the show in the past talked about the fact that we actually need to spend more time asking the right Question than trying to come up with the solution. We should actually be spending the time on that and going, Is this really the problem we’re trying to solve? Is this really the issue in front of us? Or is it something else? And you can’t do that when you don’t think you have enough time?

Joanna L. Cea  30:15

Exactly. Yeah. And it’s interesting, because, you know, as we, in the process of writing the book, and each practice has its own chapter, there’s a little vignette in front of it. But it’s very hard to separate the practices from one another, because they all are, you know, very intertwined. And like you’re saying, you know, that operating in that kind of grounded way is very linked to also prioritizing relationship and tapping into other ways of knowing and, but what you’re sharing is making me think of one of the people in our cool learning community. Antoinette de Carroll is the founder of creative reaction Lab, which is a group that has really shaken things up in the design world, in internet helped pioneer at field of design called equity center and community design. And the way they work brings in very diverse stakeholders, if you will, as fellow designers and really gets to asking the right questions, and does processes differently so that you hear those really innovative ideas. And we ultimately decided to feature creative reaction lab in the vignette before trust, there is time. They had so many great stories have like their first session with any clients. It’s like, okay, we’re going to spend, you know, X number of hours today talking about power dynamics, and doing some deep look, history and power dynamics and stuff in our field and our organization. And they almost invariably get an initial big pushback and discomfort of like, wait a minute, I stepped away from my to do list to come do this thing. And you’re telling me we’re not going to get from point A to point Z by the end of the today. And we’re asking these big nebulous questions and, and then by the end of the day, people, or even the end of the session, people are incredibly present. No one’s looking at the clock. They’ve had breakthrough conversations. They saw things they never did before. The questions around history have sparked empathy that they didn’t have before for one another. And they’re like, this is incredible. We can’t wait and incident jianxin She and her team are like, do you remember you didn’t want us to do them so

Maria Ross  32:29

convenient? And not for nothing, but we told you so? No, I love that

32:36

hard to feel like we have permission to do

Maria Ross  32:38

that. Yes. And then you know, it’s a perpetuating cycle. Because in a culture where we think we’re going to be punished for trying to create that flow and create that time, then we don’t do it. And really, it’s what everyone is craving. But no one wants to speak up unless you get a really bold, brave leader that says we’re going to do this differently. Yeah, it gives everyone else permission to say Thank God, we’re gonna do it differently. Because this was not working. Yes. And so it’s almost like we’re in, you know, we’re in dysfunctional relationships. So often in work environments where I think individually, people know the way they want to work. But they’re stuck in this groupthink and this environment where they’re not psychologically safe to say, I want to try to do something differently. And it’s just sad, because everyone, there’s so many people that have the same idea of what they want. And then they go into this office environment together and they’re miserable together. It just erase me sad.

Joanna L. Cea  33:38

No, and we, along that research with the book, so many people, we ask the question like, okay, the phrase, beloved economy, you don’t know anything about what it means or where it came from. But what does it mean to you? Like, what would it feel like if you woke up one morning and stepped out your front door into oblivion economy? The things that people want and dream about are so similar? Yeah. It’s so and then it’s that, like, we are all wanting something very different. So why are we all document what we’re stuck in right now. And our hope is that this book can help us wake up to the power we have, especially with our teams and groups, to choose to imagine and build outside of it. You have to support one another to be living examples that other ways are indeed possible.

Maria Ross  34:29

I love that. I think we’ll just leave it there. Because this is such an important conversation. And I hope listeners will check out the book, beloved economies transforming how we work. Thank you so much, Joanna, for your time and your insights today and for the book that you and Jess have written because I think it’s important that we all embrace. We talk so much about innovating products and services. We don’t talk enough about innovating the way we work. Yes, you know what I mean? And so that’s, you know, what I hope to highlight In this podcast, I’ve highlighted a few other guests. One in particular is coming to mind. Rebecca Freese, who runs a culture of workplace innovation and culture firm called Flynn consulting. And she wrote a book called The good culture. And in the subtitle, it’s something about like creating a workplace that doesn’t suck isn’t the metal. That’s really where we’re not innovating there. We might be innovating with apps and technology, and, you know, ride sharing services and all this kind of stuff. But the organizational structure or the culture structure is still so outdated, and in desperate need of being revamped

Joanna L. Cea  35:38

the culture structure and the ownership and decision making and return structure and that we call that out too.

Maria Ross  35:45

Yep, absolutely. And the beautiful part of this, as I often talk about with rules of leadership, and the way we engage with each other is those are all rules we created, not laws of physics, and so we can change them at Linden if we don’t like them. So let’s do that. So let’s start with your book, beloved economies. Joanna, thank you so much. All your links already have the opportunity to be here. Yes. And all the links will be in the show notes. But for anyone on the go right now. Where’s the best place they can learn more about you and justice work?

Joanna L. Cea  36:16

Sure. You can learn more about us the book and the whole campaign around it at beloved economies.org.

Maria Ross  36:22

Wonderful, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Maria. Take care. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please share it with a friend or colleague. And don’t forget to rate and review if you have an opportunity. Until next time and our next insightful guest. Please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Want to save the world – & build a healthy profitable business? You can. My guest today, Lindsay LaShell, and I talked about everything purpose & profit! What is a marketing activist, how impact organizations can better leverage marketing to achieve goals, where folks go wrong when leveraging social media, & the marketing lies that detract all of us, for-profit & nonprofit – from achieving our goals. Lindsay explains her buyer’s journey framework & how it operationalizes empathy into your business model & marketing. We talk about B Corps & how any business that wants to make a difference can become one –  she has stellar advice for anyone longing to marry purpose & profit or paycheck. You will leave today’s conversation motivated to do more good with your work, no matter how large your organization is.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• Marketing is not about lying to people, it is about telling your story truthfully to do good in the world. Marketing is a communication tool to serve & lift. 
• Every sale you make is human-to-human. B2B or C2C don’t matter because everyone is human with their own thoughts, fears, wants, stresses, & human needs.
• Have a business purpose for everything you do in marketing. You do not need to do everything that everyone else does. You do not need to do something, especially on social media, just because you feel like you “should” do it.

“Mediocre marketing costs a lot of money because you don’t know who you’re talking to, & you don’t know what you’re offering. We don’t have time & money to waste. We need our s*#t to be more efficient, we need better. That’s where empathy focuses your range.”

—  Lindsay LaShell

MARIA’S COURSE

Learn more about Maria’s new Brand Story Breakthrough course, starting September 8. Spots are limited so grab yours before it’s gone to start attracting more of your ideal customers & boosting revenue & growth: https://bit.ly/BSBcourse

Resources Mentioned:

Heather Hiscox, The Empathy Edge: The Surprising Empathy Gap in Social Impact That Hinders ChangeElisa Camahort Page, The Empathy Edge: The Art of Empathy in Politics, Activism & Media BSIan Bentley, The Empathy Edge: Conscious Consumerism for the WinGay Hendricks, The Genius ZoneSPECIAL OFFER: Want to ditch the social media channels that don’t serve you without sacrificing opportunities? Use coupon code “EMPATHY” to get FREE access to Lndsay’s Social Media Solution course in Kajabi. Lindsay’s course: The Power of Delegation for Entrepreneurs: https://courses.open-lines.co/offers/78wKLz3E/checkoutAbout Lindsay LaShell, Marketing Activist & Founder, Open Lines Marketing:

Lindsay Dayton LaShell is a Marketing Activist & the creator of the Open Lines Marketing Framework. Her work is to advance justice, equity, & sustainability through access to excellent marketing strategies for women, indigenous, queer, or POC founders, B Corps, & nonprofits. Through workshops, speaking gigs, & consulting, she’s helped thousands of organizations reevaluate & realign their marketing strategies to be more empathetic, efficient, & effective. To see what she’s up to, follow her on LinkedIn or subscribe to her newsletter at open-lines.co.

Connect with Lindsay LaShell:

Open Lines Marketing: https://www.open-lines.co/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsaylashell/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/Open_Lines

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/openlinesmarketing/

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work, to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Want to save the world and build a healthy, profitable business? You can you can have impact No matter your work. My guest today, Lindsey le shell founder of open lines marketing, talks about her evolution into becoming a marketing activist and devoting her marketing skills to help women queer or bipoc entrepreneurs, nonprofits, B corpse and other purpose driven organizations increase their opportunity through marketing strategy. We talked about everything purpose and profit. So you’re in for a treat. What a marketing activist is how impact organizations can better leverage marketing to achieve their goals, where folks go wrong when it comes to leveraging social media, and the marketing lies that detract all of us for profit and nonprofit from achieving our goals. Lindsay explains her buyers journey framework, and how it operationalizes empathy into your business model and marketing. We talk about B corpse and how any business that wants to make a difference can become one, and she has stellar advice for anyone longing to marry their purpose, profit or paycheck. You’ll leave today’s conversation inspired and activated to do more good with your work. No matter how large your organization or your skill set. Take a listen. A big hello to you, Lindsay. Today joining us on the empathy edge Podcast. I’m so glad we’re reconnecting and having this conversation. Thanks, Ray. I’m so excited to be here. So you and I met years ago at a wonderful Women’s Conference in Northern California, I believe it was called world changer women, women, world changing women and you are a world changing woman. And I’m so glad we got the chance to meet there and stay in touch. Talk to us a little bit about your work and specifically what marketing activism is.

Lindsay Lashell  03:12

Yeah, do you know it was like such a glorious day was the day that I realized that my experience and my skills could be aligned with the purposeful path that I was looking for. It was just it was just magical, because I had been. I mean, I’ll be honest, I say this all the time. Like I don’t actually care about marketing at all. Like that is not my thing. My thing is helping people get what they need from their organizations. And marketing happens to be the skill set that I’ve got. So the activism to me is that I focus on making businesses stronger for women, bipoc Queer entrepreneurs, for nonprofits and be corpse and purpose driven organizations. It’s like, if by my by my values, if your success makes the world a better place, then I want to help you. That’s my activism. So you know, if you are an I have a handful of clients that are straight white men, but they either run nonprofits or social enterprises or something else, right. On the other side, if you’re a black woman, and one of the things I say all the time is like as long as you’re not selling guns or drilling for oil, I don’t care how you make yourself Rich and I want to help. And so that’s how I That’s how my activism,

Maria Ross  04:37

I love it. Well, I’ve always said throughout my whole career in marketing and branding, that if we could only use marketing for good rather than evil, how world changing that would be. Absolutely. You know, you and I are so aligned in that we look at marketing, not as this schlocky, you know, I always tell people marketing is not about lying to people. It’s about elevating the truth of your story. So the Need what you’ve got can find you. And you can actually create a sustainable business where you can do more good in the world. Yes. And so again, those are the those are the clients, I think both of us have that kinship of those are the clients were drawn to. And I will say, even when I work with my high tech clients, if they have a deeper mission and a deeper purpose, to leverage their technology to make the world better, I want to work with them. Right? Absolutely. So I love this so much. And I love that you, you know, I don’t know if you coined the term, but it’s the first place I ever heard it was being a marketing activist, because I think it really gets to that idea of leveraging marketing as a communication tool. Yeah.

Lindsay Lashell  05:41

Yeah, it is. I mean, it’s super intentional. I made it up as far as I know, I don’t I have never met another marketing teams. But for me, yeah. But for me, it really is, you know, it’s funny, because I still do have clients, especially when I work with like an accelerator, where the businesses, the entrepreneurs I’m working with, didn’t necessarily opt to work with me, right, because I’m like writing them or a curriculum or whatever. Like, I definitely have to do a little bit of a karmic balancing soul cleansing exercise, first to get everybody on board with the idea that marketing in and of itself is not bad. That that is that you know, anything can be used for good or bad, exactly getting and if your business is good. And your marketing deserves to be good, and you shouldn’t get too caught up in the garbage that we’ve all experienced, and the exploitation and you know, ways

Maria Ross  06:32

I mean, this is why this is why people are sick of advertising and marketing is because there’s so much bad stuff out there and right, because it’s they’re spraying the wall, hoping to hit the right people. And I do love like you I love working with nonprofits and social impact organizations to Leverage Marketing to amplify their message, because they often they have such good intentions, but they don’t have that skill set all the time. So, so let’s talk a little bit about the framework you use, because your company open lines, has a unique method for operationalizing empathy in marketing. And I know again, you and I are very aligned on the fact that marketing begins with empathy for your, for your customer, for your prospect for the person you’re trying to serve, right? Not the person you’re trying to get money from. So talk about how the framework helps your clients operationalize empathy.

Lindsay Lashell  07:27

Yeah, it’s the man, when I figured out this thing, I got so excited. Like, in so many different marketing jobs I had had, the Mo was like, Yeah, you do some persona work fine, then you put together the campaign, and you like, take the client’s money, and you’re like, Oh, I hope the phone rings have a good time. And when I started my own marketing agency, that was just not good enough for me, like I needed to know that the work we were doing was really well informed, and that it was gonna be held accountable for being effective. Like, those were the two things I was like, if we can’t get the results, we promise you should take your money somewhere else, right? Like, I don’t want it. And so. So that was where the framework started, where I started to develop this framework. And I mean, the basically, the premise of it is, if we look at the buyers journey, I break it down into five distinct phases, right? Part one is what we call the problem stage. And that’s like pre action, right? There’s like something in the back of my head says, I’m going to need a solution for some problem someday, but I’m not taking action on it yet. Right? Then you have like a triggering event that puts you into the research stage, which is when you are really starting to gather all your options, right? The way I talk about research stages, like you are walking through the store, picking up things off the rack that you are then going to try on, right? If you and the trying them on, that’s the planning stage, that’s when you’re like going through each thing and saying like, what’s at stake? Is this appropriate? Can I afford it? Do I like the way it fits? Like whatever, right? Those are really the questions in the planning stage. And then you get to a decision which gets you to solution, right? And I am as a marketer, anybody who says that is not marketing, communications is missing opportunities, right? Like how you talk to your clients and your customers is a marketing opportunity and how you leverage them in Phase Five, which is the recommendation stage can be everything for how effective your message is, for how well your your product is received, right, whatever it is. And so so the thing that’s amazing about this is when you look at the really like the user experience through those steps, it turns out that there’s like specific marketing channels that correlate with those experiences. So nobody, right it’s like the solution stage is almost never on Your social media. So whatever people care about at the solution stage doesn’t have to show up in your social media at all. And so now we can start to get what questions? Are they asking when they’re on your social media? And just focus on answering those, you don’t have to answer every question everywhere, know where they are when they are like, so it’s an emotional journey. But then it’s also like a digital or physical journey. And so once you, once you map those two things together, it tells you pretty clearly what you need to say, and where you need to say it. And that simplifies things quite a lot.

Maria Ross  10:31

And it’s different for every company, because I know when I worked in enterprise sales, that, you know, we would always try to talk to the sales teams about that, like you can’t propose on the first date. Right, you’re not going to ask for the sale at that first meeting. Now there’s, there’s things you have to do. And also you’re not going to necessarily offer a demo, or reveal references, until they get to a certain phase of the journey, where that’s applicable. So there’s even like marketing assets that go within each phase of the journey. And it’s sort of like, you know, are you are you introducing them to mom and dad on the first date? Yeah, exactly. They will run it’s too much, right? In a b2b context,

Lindsay Lashell  11:12

it’s even more interesting, because lots of times the conversion point is telling your boss about the opportunity. Yes,

Maria Ross  11:20

it’s not even you, you’re just the researcher.

Lindsay Lashell  11:23

Right. And so you understand that journey when you like, dig in, and really empathize with that person, what makes them tick in their job, like, I am that person. I know. It’s so cheesy, and I don’t care, but like b2b, b2c, individual humans,

Maria Ross  11:39

yeah. And we’re selling to humans

Lindsay Lashell  11:42

are patient. And so we don’t care. Like when my clients want to tell me that their customers are the name of a company or a job title or something like that, like we have a lot of work to do. It is a human person with their own fears, and wants, and hobbies, and stresses, and we got to meet them there. And so that’s like that journey map is what I call it is like going through and in their own words, describing their experience of like where you’re at at each. Absolutely. I

Maria Ross  12:12

love that you said that, because that’s actually in a workshop I’ve been offering around how to create an empathetic brand, is learning how to ask an echo back. Because we have the way we fall in love with describing our product or service. And it might there might be a place for that. Because we might be creating a new category, we need to introduce new language. But are you talking to your customers and finding out how they describe what you do to their peers? Yeah, that’s the language we should be using. So that’s when you get that marketing and advertising where people read it and go, Oh, my gosh, they’re inside my head. Yes, that’s right. I love it. Okay, so how, you know, given all of that, talk to, you know, help us make that business case of how does leveraging empathy in that process, make your marketing more efficient?

Lindsay Lashell  13:01

Do you know what it’s exactly what you said about people who are like spreading the walls trying to collect it? Right? Really, mediocre marketing costs a lot of money, because you’re like, you don’t know who you’re talking to, and you don’t know what you’re offering. And so you got to iterate on 1000 1000 different offers and taglines and like all this kind of stuff. And it’s just wasteful. It’s easy when you have a big budget to like, get results, like that’s 100% of the time, if you have enough money, you can get your customers and you can have a completely garbage product, right? Like, brilliant examples of that in the world. Unfortunately, I’m sorry to say yeah, but let’s be honest about it, like the people that I’m trying to help. We don’t have time and money to waste. That’s opposite of what’s happening. We need our shit to be more efficient, we need better. And so that’s where that empathy focuses your range. And it’s, you know, and it’s so funny, because it’s an experience that so many of my clients have, where they’re like, Well, I have this persona, and I have this persona. And I have this persona, and I start to talk about, like, what is your offer for them? Why are they accepting it? And it’s like, well, they would accept it, except for there’s this one objection, or it’s not a good fit because of this. And it’s like, not your people, not your people. And so we just like start to narrow it down and narrow it down until we have such a clear picture. And this is the thing that I do that really ends up happening a lot too is that like, I can help my clients confidently, no, who is not their client, who is not their customer who they don’t even have to try to sell to, I can give them permission to be like you’re not for them. Just don’t even try don’t worry about it. It’s a waste of time and money, like so. And so that’s really the that’s really where it gets efficient because when you’re only talking to the right people, right? Use language that really resonates really deeply. You can use channels and really clever ways and when you’re doing winging it right? Then it cuts out all the noise. You just don’t have to do all kinds of other garbage.

Maria Ross  15:06

Well, speaking of figuring out which channels to use, I know you have very strong opinions about social media. And they are very aligned with my opinions. So I would like you to talk a little bit about the, the myth we’ve all bought into. Because we forget there was a world of commerce before social media existed. And companies were built and made money and served customers. Talk to us about the mistakes you see, especially like you’re saying, These people where the resources are precious, like whether it’s a woman entrepreneur, or small business or a nonprofit, every dollar every hour counts. That’s right. So where are they you know, where are they going wrong with trying to leverage social media to amplify their message?

Lindsay Lashell  15:51

Yeah, do you know? So my, there’s a couple of different ways that this plays out, right? For me, there’s like Rule number one is, why are you doing this thing? Like what is the specific action that you are trying to generate? What is the specific business case for why this has to happen? And that could be social media, it could be a newsletter, whatever. But what is this supposed to accomplish? And is it doing that? Yeah, it’s not doing that stop, like, or change tack or something, right? We again, we don’t have time to waste. And so that so it’s like, let’s be honest about the fact that I like Sorry, but like I this message, often, I have to direct specifically to a nonprofit Ed, because there’s a lot of shoulds. There’s a lot of shoulds. I feel like we have to so we should we’re going to the board, no

Maria Ross  16:49

one else is doing it.

Lindsay Lashell  16:50

All this Yeah, wise, those are all lies. That’s all fiction, we don’t have to believe it. And so so let’s take a step back and really think very deeply about where are our people interested in hearing from us? And what do what are they interested in specifically, what is the offer that we are making to them, that they care about? And if those things are not connecting, be honest about it, and GTFO. And so, social media especially, is, I think it’s really difficult because it used to be good. It used to be a cost effective way to expand your audience. Because you had your people and your people would engage with your stuff, your people would see your stuff, and they would engage with your stuff. And then there are people would see your stuff, and they would engage with it. And you could very organically and efficiently grow your audience? Well, guess what? Step one in that chain is broken. Now Facebook has like a five in 10,000 Organic view rate, right? Twitter is half of that, and Instagram is even less. So it’s like, how many? How many followers do you have to have in order to get even 100 people to see your stuff? And of the 100? who see it? How compelling does it have to be to get them to engage with it? Like it’s just, it’s a losing battle, right? Because Facebook and Google specifically, like, These guys make money 500 bucks a time at from small businesses all over the world. And they just do that. So it’s like to you or me, or like the pizza guy around the corner, like 500 bucks a month feels like an amount that I should be spending on my advertising and that it’s a reasonable you know what I mean? Like it’s a reasonable, because it’s expensive, so you don’t think that much about it. And so that’s what they’re doing. They’re basically saying, you can’t have this for free anymore, because we’d rather have your 500 bucks a month. And if people are doing that, that, you know, they now can do whatever they want. Right? So yeah, it just to me, we just need to stop shitting on ourselves, we just need to like, go back and say for real? What’s it for? And is it? Is this a reasonable like investment? Is it a good use of our time to try to get that,

Maria Ross  19:10

and I always try to think about it too, in terms of, you know, if you are honest with yourself, and you’re using social media to just raise awareness and have a presence and be part of the conversation, you’re cool, but know that and invest accordingly. And, you know, like as someone who is going to be investing in some social media advertising campaigns, my goal is to get those people on my email list. And then I don’t have to rely on social media anymore, then they’re actually part of my community. And I’m not renting the space, I’m owning the space, right for as long as I am lucky enough to have them as I continue to offer value. That’s right, but so it’s just having your eyes open. When you make those investments. And you have a class for folks, the social media solution how to walk away from channels you don’t like without sacrificing opportunity, and I think that’s talking about asking and echoing back, that’s always what I hear is like, well, I don’t want to sacrifice the opportunity, I don’t want FOMO I don’t want to miss out,

Lindsay Lashell  20:10

you know, like, I have to be there. I feel like I have to be there. And the worst part of it is is like, especially as a like solo or small business, right, you’ve got limited resources. So your options are invest those resources in a channel, that is not going to pay you back. Yeah. Don’t invest in that channel, and then feel like crap about it. Right? Because either because you’re not showing up as the genius that you are, or because because it’s, you know, like, for, it’s just not representing you? Well, because you as, especially for a woman business owner, like feel like you should, and you’re not, you put this extra pressure. And so it’s like it’s lose lose. So for me, once I realized, sort of the way that social media can be, frankly, more of a landing page than a Yes, way billboard. Right. Yeah. And that I mean, spoiler alert, that’s what the course is about, right? It’s like, like, how to think through the process of like, what is your Instagram need to be? If all it’s doing is validating people who are coming, they’re looking for you. If you go to open, if you go to open lines, marketing, Instagram, literally the most recent posts says Find us on LinkedIn.

Maria Ross  21:29

Yeah, that’s that’s your, that’s your place. That’s where you engage. And I want to add to because in case folks don’t listen all the way through you are, we are going to, in the show notes, have a special coupon code for listeners who want to check out that course of yours for free. So this isn’t about trying to sell people on this, you are really just trying to get this message out there to help entrepreneurs, small businesses, social impact organizations, nonprofits, stop wasting their precious resources and be more successful. So we will have that coupon code in the show notes for folks that are interested in checking out that short and juicy class that you are offering. So I want to just ask, you know, with your own experience, as a woman entrepreneur, I believe you had a B Corp before or other agency a B Corp as well. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, that landscape of being a woman entrepreneur and trying to have social impact as a B Corp? And, you know, trying to make money while serving your purpose? What are some of the lessons learned that you have to share with people about that?

Lindsay Lashell  22:39

Yeah, it’s got, you know, I, I guess the the first and like, overarching, like idea that I would want to get across is just that, like, you absolutely do not have to choose between purpose and profit, like, Absolutely do not. The B Corp movement is, it’s really special to me, I have a great community of other women entrepreneurs there. And, you know, when we got so I started my eight, my marketing agency, it was the first business I started in this in this industry. And that was in 2015. And we got our first B Corp certification in late 2019 2018 2018. And it was such a great exercise, because it was really just like, ticking boxes of like, proving that we are who we say we are, right, we were already I was already in a place where I was like, we want to work with purpose driven businesses, we want to work with nonprofits and and that’s all you know, that’s all great. And then when I transitioned from the from the agency into more of a teaching coaching, advising role as I am with the framework, then the it just got even easier, because the lot the downstream impact, right? It’s just it’s a simpler, it’s a simpler model. And the way that the community and the assessments work is it’s very, it adjusts to your business model. Everybody’s evaluated based on whether or not they have a supply chain, whether or not they have physical space, like all these sorts of things. But the bottom line is that, you know, B Corp is working really hard to make sure that it’s available to everybody that this was like this is not an exclusive, it’s not elite it is like should be thinking about the, you know, carbon footprints of our businesses, right, you know, like, whatever that is. And so we should be forced to think through the impact of our work on our local community and on our global community and all the things so I think, yeah, I mean, like I said, like, the very first thing I said was like, the day that I realized that like, the things I wanted to do at work and the things that were impactful could be the same thing was just amazing. And so I Think. And so that’s the thing is like, even if you’re just, you know, selling office supplies, sell renewables and sell them to purpose driven businesses. And now you’re you know what I mean? Like, there’s nothing hard about taking a regular business model and making a purpose driven business business model. And I think this is one of the things that I’m really excited for him the next steps of this evolution is watching the nonprofit as like nonprofits are starting to be more revenue minded. And my sincerest hope is that that leads them towards more efficient business practices, and, frankly, more ethical business practices. Because I think that’s the philanthropy has a lot of legacy stuff that they need to outgrow right, to evolve out of, and I think the B Corp movement is a good a good model for how to do that.

Maria Ross  25:55

And we probably should have said this earlier in case there is anyone unfamiliar with the B Corp classification. Can you just give us a quick? Yeah, Intro to that?

Lindsay Lashell  26:04

Yeah, I think the talking line is like B corpse meet the highest standards of sustainability, inclusion and equity. Something else, it’s a series of business assessments that you take, and you get points there, it’s shift. There’s some movement there and exactly how it’s going to be evaluated. But basically, you know, you got to look out for your environmental community impact. And, you know, one of the things I love this, like, one of the requirements is your, if you have a healthcare, you know, benefits for your team, it has to include trans health care. It has to include mental health care, it has to include, right, and so there’s just all these kinds of things. It’s just like, really thoughtfully, making sure that everybody is on the right side of history, you know, well,

Maria Ross  26:50

and I love and I think it was probably around the time that I met you, when I realized that for profit businesses can be B corpse. So not everybody. There’s always been this binary thing of either I’m helping the world or I’m making a ton of money. And the whole point of the empathy edge, you know, as I’ll say, in my sign off, is that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. It doesn’t mean we’re trying to exploit compassion to make money, it just means that you can do both. They’re both achievable. And you don’t have to choose one or the other. And so you know, through you, I’ve met, you know, website developers, developing agencies who have who are B corpse. I’ve met other companies, like you said, you can’t be an office supply company and be a B Corp. On my show, I’ll put a link in the show notes, I interviewed an Ian Bentley, who is the CEO and founder of Parker clay, which sells luxury leather goods that are made in Ethiopia, and helps keep women from being human trafficked. And going into lives of prostitution. And that is a B Corp. So we need to change our mindset about what we think philanthropy looks like what we think social impact looks like. And what I love about what you’re doing is you’re saying, Yeah, even marketing, consulting, even even, that can be something that benefits the world because of the way that you do business. And as you were talking about all, you know, some of the requirements of a B Corp, I couldn’t help but think, wouldn’t it be great if one day in our world those are the requirements for starting a company? Right, not a specific kind of company? Yeah, at any company.

Lindsay Lashell  28:35

This is what’s required to think it through on your on your incorporation docks. Yeah, I mean, I’ll tell you like, quick plug, anybody else who wants to get involved I think be corpse in general, the next step really is to get to have it be a consideration and government contracting. That feels like right like right now you can have like minority ownership or women ownership is a consideration I think be corpse should also be a consideration. Like that’ll be a huge boost to our to that the movement when that happens. But I want to I just wanted this isn’t like a strictly answer to a question. But I want to name this other thing. Yes, please. Because it’s, you know, we’re talking about profit and purpose and all this kind of stuff. And then at the same time, I’m over here talking about how my clients are all really underrepresented, underestimated individuals, whether they are founders of a nonprofit, or you know, queer, bipoc, whatever. And I am going to make a lot of money by helping them in an equitable way. And so I really, I want everyone who does who offer services, but even some goods can do this, to start to think about what sliding scale pricing would look like in their business model. That is how that is how we control for opportunity, right? To me, the thing that I always say is that access to resources should never determine access to resources. Otherwise, we are just going to continue to perpetuate the, you know, investment models and really exploitative capital that has been making business run in this country since it was started. And so for me, it’s it is, I am so passionate about my work, and it is priced in a very intentional way, where I know I know what it’s worth. And I understand that a lot. And I’m making it available in a bunch of different ways, right? Like I’m working on like, I’m working on my book right now. So you’ll actually have access to like, a workbook where you’ll get everything you need for like, 25 bucks, cool, go do that, you know, and then there’s like, self serve online courses. And then I have like, small like cohort like entrepreneur cohorts that I work with. And so there’s all and then of course, there’s like, the big ticket is the is the like, one on one consulting, right. But it’s like, that huge range means that the work, the value of it can be available to anybody, because I don’t want, I just don’t want to continue to perpetuate the privilege that comes with this kind of business intelligence, really, you know,

Maria Ross  31:16

well, and I love it. Because you’re building the sliding scale, you know that I think the thing that makes a lot of entrepreneurs pause when they hear sliding scale is, but what if I end up doing all this work? For no money? Right? And I love how you’re flipping that on its head, it’s about having maybe different offerings at different price points. Yes, with that, you know, with your book, you write it once it’s available, it can actually scale, right? Versus your one on one bespoke engagements. That might not be something you’re going to offer on a sliding scale. Or maybe you will make that choice, right? And you get to decide what’s in scope of that threat. Someone can go, Okay, well, maybe I’m not gonna get 100% of the benefit of it. But I’m gonna get 80% And you’re not going to feel resentful offering it? That’s right. I think that’s the mistake is some entrepreneurs get so gung ho about that, that they start offering everything on a sliding scale, and then people are paying them like, you know, $100 for 40 hours of their time. And that’s not promoting equity and opportunity either for you. Right, that’s

Lindsay Lashell  32:18

including ourselves, which is something that a lot of women consultants will do, right. So yeah, no, I do. I think it’s interesting, because one thing I’m toying with, I’ll just like, mention it. I’m i This heard it here first, that Yeah, exactly. The entrepreneur cohort, that it’s six, it’s a maximum of six, required found, like they have to be founders because it’s like skin in the game. Right, right. And so and I’m actually thinking about offering this as a little bit like pay what you can model, like, there’s the price, there’s the equity discount, and then there’s the I have the privilege and opportunity to help cover the equity discount. And so I think that’s the the, you know, there’s the retail, the retail plus and the retail minus sort of pricing structure that I’m going to that I’m going to introduce this year. So I’m excited to see how that goes. Yeah,

Maria Ross  33:14

definitely. You’ll have to report back. Yeah. Well, any other final thoughts to folks listening, whether they’re working for themselves, or they’re working within a larger organization and really struggling with trying to and I know, I struggled with this early in my career of like, how do I take my business skills and still do good in the world? Right? What’s your advice to people as they try to look at aligning their purpose with their paycheck or their purpose with their profit?

Lindsay Lashell  33:42

That’s a good question. I think, I think it’s really kind of, it feels so cheesy, but I really do believe this. I think it’s just like, being empathetic with yourself. Like, understand, listen to yourself, when you that little voice tells you what you actually want to be doing. And it’s it’s not what you are doing. Because I think, you know, is it Gay Hendricks that writes about the zone of genius. Right? Like, that’s like, the most powerful thing is when you know you are doing what you are great at. And so I think as entrepreneurs, especially, it’s really easy to get sort of blown around by what clients or prospects are asking us for and stuff like that. And I when you get to a place where you know what you are for this is one of the reasons why I am so grateful like this. I had a wonderful conversation with a client slash friend slash coach. And it was about knowing what you’re for, and what you’re not for. And, you know, to use some like relevant examples like roe gets overturned. That’s upsetting to me. But I am not the best person to fight that battle. I can help the people who are here to fight that battle. But that is not the best use of me, right? Something like the school shootings is another thing that’s like really upsetting when it happens. And I am comforted by knowing that like, I know what my battle is. It’s not gun control. It’s not abortion access. My battle is entrepreneurship opportunity and equity. And that’s what I’m here to do. And I think if you figure out what it is that you are here for, there’s a business model there. There’s a business model that that part is not the hard part.

Maria Ross  35:34

I love what you’re saying because it reminds me of a past guest, Elisa camel, hoard Paige who co wrote the book, roadmap for Revolutionaries, she often talks about the fact of a term called triaging your it’s not your passions, triaging your causes. Yeah, and making this a community effort because one person can’t fight on every front. Exactly. So if you can get yourself into a collective or in a group where, okay, these are all the issues that that are important to me. And Lindsay, I know you’re on this and this and you know, Jane, over here you’re doing, you’re focused on this, and this, and I’m going to focus my genius on this in this and as a group, we’re going to tackle these problems. But I love that she’s got an in her book roadmap for Revolutionaries. Like I said, she co wrote that with two other female authors, they talk about how to become an activist. And without burning yourself out without thinking you’ve got you have to be the one to solve all the problems, right. And so it’s kind of goes to also towards purpose. And I think many of us, at least speaking for me struggled with that in our 20s. And you know, there was just so much and it and it paralyzed you to actually do nothing at the time. And so when we

Lindsay Lashell  36:47

Sorry, I was gonna say like, I was an elementary school teacher in my 20s. Because that’s, that was the path that I could see to how I can contribute. Right? Yeah, turned out that I mean, I love teaching and I learned a ton, I wouldn’t be great at my job today, if I hadn’t done that, then right. Also, student loan debt, and, you know, trying to pay rent by myself and all these things, like I burned out in five years, as many public school teachers do. Because it’s just, it’s a, again, it’s an exploitative job, taking advantage of the purpose of purpose driven individuals that want to do it. Yeah. So yeah, so that’s I we’re, like, wandering around trying to figure out how to, where does the purpose get applied? And I think, just figuring out which is the which is the thing that that is, you know, from you first, and then whatever marketing activist accounting activists like they like, right, like anybody

Maria Ross  37:44

activist Yeah.

Lindsay Lashell  37:48

thing, because if you’re, if you’re purposeful, and thoughtful, and really care, you know, like, yeah, you know, know what you’re doing like this,

Maria Ross  37:55

find a way to apply those skills. I remember when I was getting ready to go to college. And I was a little bit for Lauren, about the fact that I really loved marketing. And I knew I wanted to major in like marketing or advertising. And I remember having a conversation with my mom in the car, and saying, but it’s not really noble. And she was like, well, Maria, society still needs to function. Not everybody can actually do a noble profession, but you can be noble within your profession. And that was, I think what I was always trying to seek out was like, of the thing I loved to do, and that I was good at. How could I apply it to better the world to better other people to help other organizations or other individuals? And maybe they’re the ones on the frontlines? Yeah. And I’m not I’m just helping to market and amplify their work. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I love this so much. Such a great conversation. It’s so inspirational. Lindsey, I

Lindsay Lashell  38:48

know I love talking to you can I just throw out like one more idea that popped in my head, I just want to, because we’re talking about really purposefully, like reaching out trying to help whatever. And I just want to like raise a flag on white savior complex, and just like name, that if you are like me, white, and also very committed to making the world a better place, you need to educate yourself on white savior ism, because it’s really easy to have great intentions and be an asshole.

Maria Ross  39:20

But it can backfire. Really, really.

Lindsay Lashell  39:24

And so if you are transitioning into more purpose driven work, please educate yourself about how to avoid being the white savior. And, you know, think a lot more about collaborating with and partnering with, rather than, you know, gifting

Maria Ross  39:41

or doing for this is a great segue into an episode I did with Heather Hiscox, who was yeah, she’s amazing. She’s, she talks a lot about about where social impact organizations and advocates go wrong. With the best of intentions, the to try to solve problems for people versus solving problems with people, and I’ll put a link to her episode because it opened my eyes to so much and especially for those of you listening who want to have impact and want to do good, there’s a an effective and an ineffective way to go about that. And so please, if you get a chance, after you hop off this, take a listen to Heather’s episode that I’ll put in the show notes. But, Lindsey, thank you so much for your time, we’ll have all your links in the show notes and your generous offer to take your social media course free. Again, it’s called the Social Media solution, how to walk away from channels you don’t like without sacrificing opportunity. And there’ll be a coupon code for empathy edge listeners to get that $50 course for free, open access. And again, all your links will be there. But for folks on the go are working out right now as they’re listening to this where’s the best place they can find out more about you and your work?

Lindsay Lashell  40:53

Yeah, so my website is open dash lines.co. There’s all kinds of information you can like download a chapter of the book or sign up for a course or whatever. And then if you want, like more my very strong opinions, just search for me on LinkedIn. Right?

Maria Ross  41:10

Yes, thank you. You’re very strong opinions are very insightful, so keep them coming. Thank you so much for your time. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. As always, if you liked what you heard, please share it with a friend or a colleague. Don’t forget to rate and review as well. And until next time, always remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

In this special episode, I deconstruct Ted Lasso’s cultural impact and golden lessons on leadership and empathy with one of my favorite people, Elisa Camahort Page.You may recall her from a past episode – she is a leadership and business expert, as well as a devoted empathy and pop culture fan, like myself – and we both enjoy finding lessons to apply to leadership and life in our favorite stories and characters. 

We discuss why the Apple TV+ show hit such a nerve with viewers (and us, as fan girls) and created a cultural phenomenon. We explore the leadership and teamwork lessons the show gracefully imparted, as well as how it expertly tackled themes of female friendships, toxic masculinity, mentorship, fatherhood, and mental health. We also dive into the brilliant storytelling construction and character arcs that kept viewers wanting more – and what we think might be next for the Lasso universe.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• Good ideas can come from anywhere. Stay curious, keep listening, and give others an opportunity to fill in where your skills don’t cover. 
• The little moments matter. They are what lead you to and away from the big moments and are equally as important. 
• There is freedom in allowing yourself to feel vulnerable and embrace the challenges that come your way. 

”On the surface, there was the super warm fuzzy and so much to love, but underneath, they were tackling the complexity of human nature, how nothing is what it seems, and we don’t know what’s behind everybody’s behavior.” —  Elisa Camahort Page

MARIA’S COURSE

Learn more about Maria’s new Brand Story Breakthrough course, starting September 8. Spots are limited so grab yours before it’s gone to start attracting more of your ideal customers and boosting revenue and growth: https://bit.ly/BSBcourse

Episode References: 

• The Empathy Edge podcast: Elisa Camahort Page: The Art of Empathy in Politics, Activism, and Media BS
• Ted Lasso
• Scrubs

About Elisa Camahort Page: Elisa Camahort Page is a fractional executive and strategic consultant who works with organizations to launch and scale authentic community and/or user-based initiatives, harnessing the power of people — community members, employees, and partners. Elisa was at the vanguard of the social web as co-founder and COO of BlogHer, Inc. In that role, she represented the face of the company to the user community and drove the transformation of a movement into a market. Elisa had oversight of the practices, policies, and procedures that modeled how organizations can build community, grow a business, support inclusion in words and action, and defend transparency and civility. Since BlogHer was acquired, and after instilling BlogHer’s community ethos into the acquiring company’s practices, Elisa has consulted with organizations that want to create compelling products and content, foster passionate community, and bring constituencies together in alignment with their brand values. A frequent public speaker and freelance writer, Elisa is also the host of The Op-Ed Page podcast and the This Week-ish newsletter, as well as the co-author of Road Map for Revolutionaries: Resistance, Activism, and Advocacy for All.

Connect with Elisa Camahort Page:  

Website: elisacp.com

Find all Elisa’s Links at https://bio.site/elisacp

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why kashflow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Let’s get connected. If you’re loving this content, don’t forget to go to the empathy edge.com and sign up for the email list to get free resources and more empathy infused success tips, and find out how you can book me as a speaker. I want to hear how empathy is helping you be more successful. So please sign up now at the empathy edge.com. Oh, and follow me on Instagram where I’m always posting all the things for you at Red slice Maria. Hi, Maria here with a quick announcement for all you business owners, entrepreneurs and marketers out there. Does it feel like no one knows who you are or the value of what you do? Or worse the wrong people are showing up at your door prospects who won’t pay you what you’re worth can’t make the most of your offerings or suck your energy dry. My problem you say is I know I could get the right customers if I could nail how to talk about this thing. You may know what you do well, but figuring out how to talk about it and market it can be overwhelming. If you’re here you know empathy is the key to a thriving culture and perfect brand story that attracts all the right people. Join me to build the brand story that will attract more of your ideal clients and boost your business success. The authentic genuine story that is unique to you and your business and that helps you stand out brand story breakthrough. Five weeks, playbooks videos, live weekly coaching and even my eyes on your work. In the end, you’ll have your elevator pitch brandstory, website, copy, and everything you need to start moving your business forward and getting attention for your amazing work. Next cohort starts September 8. Get more details and sign up at Bitly slash BSB course that’s bi T dot L y slash b SB course right now before the spots are all gone. I hope to see you there. So welcome to a very special episode of the empathy edge podcast. I am joined by my lovely friend Alisa camel Hort, Paige. And Elisa, tell folks a little bit about you. You’ve been on the podcast once or twice, but remind us of who you are. And all you do and what you’re passionate about. Because today, we are going to be dissecting Ted lasso.

Elisa Camahort Page  03:55

Yes. Am I passionate about Ted last? Yes, that’s because I’m quite passionate about a lot of things, including pop culture in general. And one of my latest topics I’ve really been digging in on is what are the lessons we pull from and learn from pop culture good, bad and ugly? And since we consume so much of it, how can we sort of sit with ourselves in our choices and be more conscious about those lessons? But I, I’ve been in tech for more than 20 years and about, whoa, 18 years ago? No, oh, my gosh, I co founded a company called Blog Her with two other women. And I ran that company with them for nine years before we were acquired. And over the last six years, I wrote a book about activism and advocacy. And I think that’s the topic I came on. Yes. Asked and talked about Paulo jab for Revolutionaries. roadmap for Revolutionaries. That’s right resistance activism and advocacy for all. I also wrote that with two other women, and I am fractional C level for early stage startups and organizations. So I’m really all about out helping people scale and stabilize their models, their plans, their resources, I can help them get to the next level without breaking the bank for them. And while I have all this bandwidth available to pursue my many interests, including pop culture, and its lessons,

Maria Ross  05:17

yes, and we should mention your amazing podcast, the Op Ed page, which I love, because you do span all these categories, you go deep on everything from politics, to tech to pop culture. And I love how so often you tie those things together somehow, yeah, you find

Elisa Camahort Page  05:34

that the Op Ed page podcast, and then I also have a substack. That I mean, you know, that’s the thing now this week ish. And I don’t even want to derail this and start talking about social media and everything that’s going on there. Because now that’s a whole nother advertisement for that. But I’m either at least to see, or in most places. Now. I’m at least a CP and Elisa camelhair page, and you can find me and most places,

Maria Ross  05:55

right, and we, and we will put all your links in the show notes, of course. But you and I were personal friends. And we both were so impacted by Ted lasso, which for anyone living under a rock was a show that was on Apple. For three seasons, they did have the show or 433. And it just recently ended. I’m putting that in air quotes, because who knows what will happen next. But it’s from the creator of Scrubs if people are familiar with that sitcom, which was very smart, and very pointed and did make a lot of commentary about things going on in the world. But really just like lasso married poignancy with humor. And you and I got this idea to talk about this because we were talking about all the things and just the cultural phenomenon. That was Ted lasso. And I just want to get your thoughts about why you think it struck such a nerve?

Elisa Camahort Page  06:54

Well, if we can take our minds back three years ago, we were in lockdown. When season one was available, we were in lockdown globally. And you know, you have to really remember that, that global lockdown was the most impactful global, everyone experiencing some of the same thing. At the same time. That certainly has happened in my lifetime. I can’t think of other really momentous days or occasions. But the way it was experienced across the globe would have been very, very different. But that lockdown pretty much got us all in some way. And, and there was a lot of stress and anxiety and fear. And there was starting to be this divisiveness and conflict. So it was just a maelstrom of emotions. And when Ted Lassa came out, and I didn’t go with you, there was started to be a lot of hype about it. And I didn’t start watching it right away. And so by the time I started, I don’t remember if most or all of season one was available, but I binged it, you know, I saw I was able to watch a lot of it. And there was something so kind. So warm, empathetic, but not saccharin, not sugary, and it. And I think also the character of TED is transplanting to this British culture and having that cross cultural exchange and having that the complex that we’re had were cross generational across culture. I think it helped us process a little bit of going through this global pandemic and locked down together and feel like it just almost felt like you were putting on a warm, comforting blanket,

Maria Ross  08:36

I experienced the same thing. Because after every episode, especially when I had been consuming too much news and too much negativity and too much vitriol in social media or other places. This was my respite. It was sort of like the Great British baking show for me to be like, Oh, it’s making me believe in humanity again. And like you we were late to the party. Actually, last year was what got us on Apple. We after every episode, I would just always tell my husband like, I just feel warm inside. Like, I just feel like I’ve been comforted. And I don’t know if that was magnified because of what was going on at the time. But it just, it’s a TV show, but it just gave me hope that like, the world was not lost that humanity was not lost

Elisa Camahort Page  09:22

on because at every level, every character was really about defying expectations and being more on the inside than they appeared on the outside. I’m sure one of two of the reasons I probably didn’t start watching it right away is I don’t care about football slash soccer. Like I follow other sports, that’s not what I follow. And so I’m like, I really gonna watch a whole show about soccer. And to if I’m just admitting my own internal bias like Jason Sudeikis his character with that really broad southern accent and that gosh, shucks kind of you know, that’s like not like I’m a I’m one of those coastal elite guys. I’ve lived in New York and I’ve lived at Cal Warren Yeah. And I’m like, you know that I was like, How much am I going to relate to this? This right? Southern guy? Coaching Soccer, like, how am I going to relate to any of that? Right? Yeah. And the show was so beautiful about letting you be curious, which is a key point that comes up in a critical scene in TED, last of the dark throwing scene, with Anthony Stuart head as Giles, who are as Rupert, who I love back as exiles from Buffy, you know, of course you do. Yeah. My favorite actors. And we’re TED talks about oh, you know, people don’t have curiosity. They look at me, and they make assumptions. And they just, they don’t wonder, hey, Ted, did you ever play darts when you were young? And oh, yeah, I played every week with my dad, you know, they don’t have curiosity. And their that was a very pointed way, explicitly articulating what the show was nudging us to do throughout, we just have curiosity about these characters, and how what they are on the outside is only part of who they are. And there are layers, that we all have layers, and that they’re worth exploring.

Maria Ross  11:04

Right. And we’ve talked about the fact that the storytelling structure of the show was so brilliant in terms of that was how I would describe it to people that hadn’t seen it as you’ve got to see it. But don’t make assumptions from the first or second or third episode. Because the arcs these characters go on are just brilliant, and thoughtful and intentional. And they are not the same people that they were at the beginning of the season to the end of the season. They’re not even the same people. They were from the beginning of the show, to the current end of the show, right? And just that no one stayed static. And I think that that’s what kept for me. That’s what kept bringing me back episode after episode was seeing the tiny incremental changes in the characters without it being this like, shocking moment, every time or this cheesy, you know, sit kami moment. It was like it was like, huh, that was an interesting facial expression. That was an interesting gesture. That was an interesting thing for that character to say, what are they going to do next. And it was such a masterclass in writing and character development of how these characters grew, and how we grew with them over the course of the show, which is why I thought

Elisa Camahort Page  12:16

it was an interesting choice for Apple TV plus to make to release it week by week, even though the show itself had many arcs. And it really was a throwback to me. I felt like there was something very 90s about the show, because if you look at the great cult, epic, my favorites and pop culture, pop culture from the 90s, Buffy The X Files, lots of other shows, they have an overarching mythology that gets, you know, ticked away at Little by little, and then they have some standalone episodes, and they have some, but those are the longer seasons TV shows back then had 2030 Season 30 episodes, and to Lhasa had like 10 or 12. And but it had that feel to me. So it was interesting that it was written for the binge, but it was released in a kind of time release manner week by week. And I could see people getting impatient, they remembered the satisfaction of watching on season one or watching all of season two, but they forgot that that satisfaction was doled out in small doses until it all came together. And I thought that was an interesting choice on the part of the producing company to do it that way. I do think it’s a show best benched because you can really see that arc and get all the easter eggs and remember all your bring all your feelings forward. And it’s a very satisfying binge. And we’re not used to anymore. I mean, I think part of that is that culturally, we are not used to anymore consuming things on a week by week basis. We’re used to being able to really get this an epic saga going and watch five, six hours in a row.

Maria Ross  13:56

I mean, it was addictive. That feeling I would get from that show was addictive like a drug to me. I like I just I really needed it during the time period that you talked about. And I would have this such a feeling of anticipation, especially once we caught up and now we were like week by week of like, Sunday night or whatever night it was, I can’t remember now but like, oh, there’s a new tub so out and then how defeated I felt at the end. Because I’m like, I gotta wait another week to like, revisit these people that I love. And they’re fictional characters. Right? So and you and I talked a lot about, like, so many different themes that this show tackled. And you and I both being in the in the business space, leadership, development, empathy. So many of those obvious themes came out for us in terms of leadership and teamwork and how the the unique way that Ted ran the team, but there were also all these other themes, these cultural themes that were touched on. So maybe we just go through them one by one. And let’s talk a little bit about what the show He taught us about leadership and teamwork, because that again was a masterclass in, in how you lead and motivate versus command and control which, you know, Rupert was the antithesis to that. Rebecca was very much about command and control. And by the way, we also need to touch on all the very intentional Star Wars references throughout the season as but yeah, yeah, good, the good and evil, the colors used all the things, but what, what do you feel were some of the takeaways around the the lasso way, so to speak.

Elisa Camahort Page  15:35

So one of the things I have always said for years and years about what makes for good co founding teams, is having complementary skills with an E complementary and that if you just have overlapping skills, you’re going to basically knock heads, and it’s going to be competitive more than collaborative, when you really want people to fill in gaps. And so for example, Ted comes in he doesn’t know anything about football. And if he hadn’t had beard, who it was the walk, I mean, beard was the walk. And if beard hadn’t been there to first of all, put Ted on the right path. Sometimes when he said things that were true, but also educate Ted, the F beer, Ted hadn’t had beard, I think he would have been insufferable. Like he would have just been a Rube who didn’t know what he was talking about.

Maria Ross  16:19

Right. The shutdown wouldn’t have gotten him very far with Yeah. Meanwhile,

Elisa Camahort Page  16:23

Nate obviously had strategic vision. And really, he knew the game as well. But he also just had this kind of almost prodigy strategic vision, but he had no idea how to motivate people. He was a classic example of hurt people hurt people, because the beginning of Titleist so Season One, he is being treated abominably. While fast forward to the beginning of season three, and he is treating people abominably, in fact, that even started in season two, he is just passing on what he learned from people who were not very evolved themselves. So he had no idea how to motivate people, he had no idea how to be an empathetic leader. So but you put them together, and then you have Roy, the guy who’s been there, who’s done that, who people look up to, who people want to emulate. And now you have this team, that all together, fill in all the blanks and are like a superhero. cogen. And at the heart of it, though, is Ted, who cares about not just making them better players, but better men. And they needed that they were young, I think a point was made frequently that these were young guys, that a lot of things could go to their head being a professional athlete. And, and there were obviously some probably there were some wonderful father figures doesn’t Sam Sam’s father, they had a wonderful relationship, but but distant, geographically distant, right, Jamie? And there were some difficult father, relationships, mate, Jamie, and so Ted rod, kind of turtle, warm hearted, empathetic, you know, education to these guys that they weren’t getting in other places. And so I kind of feel like that was one of the key things that was brought up was this, you know, find people to fill in your gaps and appreciate and respect the people who do and give them give them authority? Right? Well, and that’s that their

Maria Ross  18:14

magic he he gave people agency he gave people he trusted in people to perform beyond their title or beyond their level, giving Nate the opportunity to, to lead to be to have a say to be a strategist and then eventually be part of the coaching staff. He was not threatened by where ideas came from. And that was such a clear, right? It’s what endear him to me. But also, it was such a again, a great example of leadership, where when you’re not threatened the way Nate was threatened when he got into a leadership position, and then other people wanted to have ideas and he sort of tamped them down. He didn’t really learn from Ted’s lesson. This idea that good ideas can come from anywhere and also seeing the potential in people you know, Roy was a player, he retired, totally cantankerous, some would say difficult to work with, and he saw that he was exactly what the team needed. And, and gave him an opportunity that he didn’t, that Roy didn’t even necessarily think to ask for. And so that idea of seeing the potential in people and not being afraid to harness it not being afraid to just let someone take something and run with it, and see where it went. I thought was such a powerful lesson for leaders everywhere.

Elisa Camahort Page  19:33

The other thing I will say is that it really it pushed back on the notion of caring the most about the big stars, the big moments the big. A lot of people got aggravated that there are key scenes in TED last so that you find out about afterwards you don’t see you don’t see it think it’s season two, you don’t see the winning shot. You don’t see Rowan Keeley breakup. You don’t see how Nate, you know the whole How did he quit? How did he quit? It route but Rupert’s team, there’s a lot of big moments, you only see that they’ve happened. And then you’re dealing with the little fallouts afterwards. So that was I think there’s lessons in there about, we tend to over focus, but it’s really those little moments that are leading you to and leading you away from the big moments. And they are important. And the other thing is that every time they kind of thought they would rely on the senior year, the lawyer, big star and big that’s going to deliver those big moments from a competitive point of view. zawacki insufficient. Yeah, Baba. But it was also Jamie and David Young, one, you know, and it’s insufficient, it’s insufficient for their needs. It isn’t even when they when there’s there’s loss there, you know, and, and so I feel like the show was really about honoring everybody’s contribution, and honoring that every small moment is what leads up to and comes out of those big moments. And if you gave them the attention, if you focused on them, you would actually be it’s transformative.

Maria Ross  21:03

Yeah. Okay, let’s shift gears a little bit. Because again, something related to our work and your own experiences running a company with other women is the the models of female friendship are presented in lasso. And you’ve heard me probably in the past, go on my rant about reality TV, not competition, reality TV, but like Real Housewives, all of these depictions of women being horrible to each other. Yeah, it drives me up a tree, because those are not things I want my nine year old boy to see. Because no women I know, act that way. Right? And so this idea of Rebecca and Keeley and their friendship and sort of these two, what seemed like polar opposites in the first season, until they both evolved a little bit, how they became friends, and also how Rebecca became Kelly’s mentor. Yeah, and mentor in a way that even at that point, I think it was season two, when she basically told Keeley to go to leave the job and go start her own company. That was, it was so moving, and so wonderful. And those are the friendships that I feel like many professional women have in real life. They’re just not depicted on screen.

Elisa Camahort Page  22:16

It was what are your thoughts on that? It was maybe my favorite part of season one was their relationship because it was born out of conflict, right. Keeley finds out that Rebecca was behind those pictures of her and Ted and she comes and instead of sitting on it and stewing on it, and then doing a bunch of passive aggressive stuff. And instead of it being a soap opera, where it just takes weeks for the truth to come out, she goes to her office to confront her, and then Rebecca, instead of reacting defensively aggressively, she apologizes. And they make up, they resolve their differences. And they build a friendship from there. And I thought that was just a beautiful depiction of for any gender, you know, the value of having the tough conversations, ringing them up early and often so that you’re not taken by surprise, moaning, you know, resisting the urge to resist owning what you’ve done. And that the I always say like, apologize if you have something to apologize for. Sometimes women get told, we say we’re sorry, too much. I’m like, okay, yes, maybe we say we’re sorry, too much. But sometimes you need to, yes, sometimes you need to sometimes if you’re sorry, I did a tic toc video about this earlier this year. If you’re sorry, it’s okay to say you’re sorry. Just make sure you’re actually sorry for something ran twice in season one, Rebecca, and Keeley. And then at the end, Rebecca and Ted, she has to apologize. She has to just own it, give a real apology, that shows she knows what she’s done and what she’s going to do to make it better. And in both cases, she has to take action to make it better, to make sure she’s not in that position again. So there’s this this amazing model of that and then their friendship was super fun, but also, like you said super much more relatable to me to the kind of friendship I have with women lately, and and so, so much about this is you know, people talk about women supporting women and, of course, you know, people often bring up like, if they’ve had one bad woman boss, then all of a sudden it’s like that’s working for women. And I’m like, No, you know, individual women can be jerks. Like no dial.

Maria Ross  24:25

It’s even an asshole is not gender specific. Right. Right.

Elisa Camahort Page  24:30

But but I really liked that you bring up assholes. I really feel like Ted Lascaux did a great job of saying why you don’t want to accommodate asshole geniuses. Why it’s never a really the thing that’s gonna make you succeed.

Maria Ross  24:41

Right? Well, and also just follow that thread a little bit. Why they didn’t give up on Jamie, who could have been written off as the asshole genius. And they worked on him, I guess in a way the mentorship what they realized he was missing was the mentorship and the support, so they took the time to actually see him and not just make a blanket assumption about, he’s just an asshole athlete,

Elisa Camahort Page  25:09

right? Even though he’s a star. And they they deflated his balloon a little bit, because that’s what he needed. You know, his ego needed to be taken down a few pegs, but they could have just written him off. And they die. He his character had a beautiful arc. Amazing. Roy’s arc was I think, less extreme. Like he just had to, like chip away a little bit like at the end when he wants to join the Diamond Dogs that’s like, oh, that’s the big vulnerable moment. But yeah, delta delta between ROI in the beginning and ROI at the end, is really not that wide, and just had to chip away a little bit open up a little bit. Yeah, Jamie had this transformation where he was really a deck in the beginning. And then he was kind of a hero of the third season. And I just thought that was beautifully done. And something you also don’t see all the time. Just like with the female friendship, you don’t always see well, how do you? How do you move beyond toxic masculinity? How do people like leave that behind to become better men? And I think we sort of swing behind this between this people saying everything is the fault of toxic masculinity without necessarily having solutions for it. More people who are like, that doesn’t exist in men are, you know, who are still mired really in patriarchal perspectives on gender? And like, what’s in between, like, how do you actually move someone forward?

Maria Ross  26:33

And how do many men actually relate to each other? You know, it isn’t it isn’t those polar opposites. And that’s why, you know, for folks listening that might not know exactly what we’re talking about. The Diamond Dogs were the group of men that led by Ted and beard and Leslie, Leslie Higgins. And it was their sort of support group, they could call a meeting of the Diamond Dogs, if one of the guys needed to talk about something like talk about a breakup or talk about a difficult decision they made. And it was hilarious. It was you know, them all going to like Ryan VI in the group of the Diamond Dogs, but and how, you know, Roy represented the looking at that from the outside in and going this is weird and uncomfortable. And I don’t know what the heck you guys are doing, and then ultimately, realizing the benefit of it. Yeah, and getting involved himself, even if it was a little tentative, and a little, like, I’m not really sure how this works, but I’m gonna I’m gonna go with it. And one of the most poignant things for me, was when Nate went to work for Rupert, and tried to recreate the Diamond Dogs with the males on the staff there, and it just didn’t fly, because they were all working in such a toxic environment. Yeah, they were they were too busy trying to save their own skin. Yeah. And present themselves in a certain way. And there was no, there was no room for vulnerability there. And you could tell it was just so poignant. You could tell that’s what Nate needed. And that’s what he missed. And he finally realized, sort of the secret sauce of what Ted had provided over at Richmond. And I just, I thought that was so I really felt for him, even though I was so mad at that character for so long. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, Oh, okay. He’s, he’s suffering from the decisions he’s made.

Elisa Camahort Page  28:11

I think they were also really great at not, everything wasn’t so wrapped up in a little bow. You know, at the end, Jamie and Roy, despite all the evolution they’ve had, they end up in a bar fighting over Kili. And acting like she’s a piece of property, they can fight over and go to her house and say, Well, you have to choose what I loved is that she was like, You both need to leave now. Right? I’d already to choose.

Maria Ross  28:35

I do love that her first response was like, oh, oh, I get to choose who I’m with, like this very sarcastic, like, Oh, that’s amazing that you’re giving me that opportunity. And then the next one is me the door. Yeah.

Elisa Camahort Page  28:47

You know, and also with Ted, I think the whole season three. So here’s now we could talk a little bit about the future. I think they’re going to do is show like the Richmond way or something. And it’s going to carry on with these characters. And I think they were teasing. They were kind of preparing you. So I always think about that song and Hamilton of the George Washington sings teach them how to say goodbye. Thanks. Season three was all about teaching us how to say goodbye to Ted the character and care about the the ripple effects of the last away becoming the Richmond way being as he really wasn’t in it as much in season three, and there wasn’t as much magical Ted and fixing people it was much more about them fixing each other Roy helping Jamie T. Lee and Rebecca like there was much more of that. And at the end, you know, they don’t they don’t give you a necessarily all tied up in a bow ending for Ted, but he has gone home. And I think a lot of people were expecting either he and Rebecca would get together which I never saw. I also liked the fact that there were male female friendships in this yes, that weren’t 100 NEXT LEVEL attraction or romance? Yeah. Or they thought I thought they were I thought they were teasing to him getting back together with his wife. If, but there that may still occur. Well,

Maria Ross  30:04

I have a question for you on that last scene when he’s he’s meeting his son, he goes home, he’s meeting his son at the door. Was he going home to his wife there and son? Or was he just was going to their son?

Elisa Camahort Page  30:18

Yeah, they’re home. I don’t know if it was his,

Maria Ross  30:20

there were so many little moments when the wife and her new boyfriend, their old marriage counselor, were in London. Totally unethical. They’re in London, and you can still see the spark. She’s still laughing at his jokes. She’s still like, enjoying his company and the other boyfriends not necessarily shown in a very complimentary light and a few of those situations. That’s where I started thinking like, Oh, yes,

Elisa Camahort Page  30:42

I did to understand his honor. It was it was extremely subtle work about what was different about Ted, that the wife could maybe that you could envision that the wife would want to be with him again. And I think it’s about him finding his vulnerability, him not having to plaster, a smile and a joke on everything. Him being the way he confronted his mother, who by the way, I did summer stock theater with Becky and Baker who played his mother back in 1985. So I just got nominated for an Emmy for this. And I Oh, my gosh, oh, so I feel connected even more to that. The way he confronted his mother the way he was able to not always have be ready with a joke and an old saying, you know, that there was a real human under there who was actually more authentic. And yet still funny. Still, you know, still all the things you love that Yeah, but but but a more well rounded, authentic character. Well, that was brought us along.

Maria Ross  31:42

That was the whole other theme, as is really confronting mental health as a whole was at the second season when he was seeing the psychologist.

Elisa Camahort Page  31:51

Yeah, he started he had panic attacks and the first season right, the second season, they brought in Sarah Niles as the sports psychologist. Yes.

Maria Ross  31:58

And that was a whole exploration of it’s okay to get help. It’s okay to not be okay. As a man in professional sports, and the fact that that was the team, psychologist, and other members of the team, were leveraging that resource and going to her. And there was actually a brief moment. I don’t know if that happened for you, where I thought maybe he was going to end up with a therapist, again, totally unethical, but there was sort of a chemistry between them. Yeah, I didn’t know what was gonna happen there. She was a hard nut to crack.

Elisa Camahort Page  32:30

I think that we’re trained to look for the romantic outcome. We’re just trained. So yeah, I did feel that at one point to maybe that will maybe when he got her up, she got the concussion. And yes, he had to take care of her. Yeah, take care, you know. So I don’t think it’s unusual that we end up having all of these kinds of shipping, as they call it in the, in the pop culture with all these characters, you know, so I’m shipping Colin and Trent from training grim, you know, because I’m just trained to ship people. Right. Seemed like Colin had a very nice boyfriend. And so, yeah, the thing about it also is, I think it’s, it’s great to show this resistance, because a lot of people are resistance to therapy, and a lot of men a lot of everybody. And I think that was a pretty realistic portrayal of why it’s so uncomfortable and why people are super resistant and, and yet that it can help and make a difference than just change your perspective.

Maria Ross  33:26

Well, and going under the surface on that, too, what was revealed through that was Ted’s, you know, Ted being this great guy with this big heart, treating his team, almost like a father figure, being a mentor to all these people, and then to find out his painful story, with his father passing away and leaving, and it was just, it was very eye opening. Again, it’s one of those things, you know, we say it over and over again. You never know what’s going on for people. Yeah.

Elisa Camahort Page  33:53

But it’s a fascinating thing that he came overseas away from his own son, yes, was probably afraid of damaging in some way in order to be a father figure to two dozen strangers. Yep. And that was a really interesting when you thought about it, you’re like, what? Wow. And that’s what his mother kind of came over to be like, hey, snap out of it. You know, your son needs you, right? You’re delving all these dies? But what about your own kid who was getting in trouble, and was having his own kind of acting out? And I thought that there were so many layers of nuance to what they did, which is why I admired it as a show. You’re on the surface, there was the super warm fuzzy on the surface, there was so much to love, but underneath they were really tackling the complexity of human nature, and how a thing is as what it seems, and we don’t know what’s behind everybody’s, you know, behavior and that grace and curiosity and all of those things will serve us and really, that all comes back to empathy right now, and and I think it just did that in such it. It did it Such a great way it taught us but in a really unprepared he

Maria Ross  35:04

yes that, uh, when funny, light hearted way. Let’s talk a little bit about Nate and his arc because I know you have you have thoughts on that. And I have to say one of the things, yes, it was very clear he was damaged and insecure. And even when given the opportunity, even when being mentored, even when being encouraged and supported, he betrayed Ted and the team. And I’m wondering, I’ve had this conversation with my husband a while, like, why, like when he was finally getting treated, I didn’t understand they were listening to his ideas, they were putting his plays into action. What’s your theory on what, what made that break for him, we understand it,

Elisa Camahort Page  35:50

I read a whole thing. I read something from the actor. And then I read a someone who pulled all the moments, the actor referenced a bunch of moments that he used in his process, and then some somewhere kind of pulled together a kind of sequence. And then I watched Season Two again. And for me, I was like, That is insufficient to explain your behavior, young man. But I could, what they tried to do was say that, hey, he has this totally withholding father. And all of a sudden, he finds the person who is going to be the loving Father who encourages him and supports him, but he has to share him with two dozen other guys and the staff. He has to share him with everybody. And so let’s see, he constantly notice the lack, not the abundance. He was scarcity mindset, like, oh, you you said this to me. But then you didn’t notice when I did this, or you didn’t comment on this, you didn’t give me praise for that. And you’re giving this praise to Jamie and that praise to Roy and this phrase to, you know, whoever, so he was always noticing the scarcity, not abundance. So he crafted a story in his head that, that the guy he thought was going to be his dad, you know, was really just like his dad, and didn’t care that much about him didn’t prioritize him didn’t put Him first. Like he didn’t see the picture of himself that he had them together that he’d given Ted. He never knew Ted had it at his home next to a picture of his son. And so not only did he have a mindset of scarcity, he felt constrained to ask for what he wanted to ask questions about what he wondered about, he just bottled it all up. So the opposite of Qilian, Rebecca, having things out and dealing with things in a healthy way, meat just bottles it up and holds on to it and just he writes us like Brene Brown would say he tells us himself the story about what’s happening. And and he sees opportunity and he has manipulated it. He’s looking for his next father figure manipulates him and he falls for the manipulate right. And so I still think that they took that they took him back without really hashing that out was crazy to me. And I’m like, and they didn’t show us that scene either. And but

Maria Ross  38:00

but we did learn more about the relationship between beard and lasso frown variants,

Elisa Camahort Page  38:07

which was like a shocker of you that was a highly impactful scene, right where

Maria Ross  38:12

Ted, you know, Ted reminds beard that hey, I gave you a second chance. Yeah, you need to give Nate a second chance. And that’s what that’s what we do. Right. But getting back to the Star Wars references, which I didn’t catch right away, but my husband was all over.

Elisa Camahort Page  38:26

You’re gonna educate me here because I’m not all I mean, I know that Darth Vader like Rupert is Darth Vader. Rupert is Darth Vader. He’s

Maria Ross  38:33

got the black robes. He’s walking like Darth Vader. But in the scene where it’s revealed, I think it was was it the end of season two that Nate left for Rupert’s team or was it the end of season one?

Elisa Camahort Page  38:43

The end of season two?

Maria Ross  38:44

The end of season two when the the camera closes in on their team practicing on Rupert’s team practicing. Yeah, all the players are in white. Like Stormtroopers. Oh, we don’t know. It’s Nate. But he’s standing there with his arms behind him and his hair. Did you notice his hair was getting gray. And that was happening? offseason? It was but I think that was a nod. I’m gonna get this wrong and someone’s gonna fact check me on this but I think it was Anakin Skywalkers hair started turning Great. Somebody started turning gray when they started turning evil. The Star Wars universe. And like, every time something like that happened, Paul would be all over it. He’d be like up. There’s another one up. There’s another one. But there was a whole thing where I was like, this is very dramatic. He’s like, it’s supposed to be there. The stormtroopers he’s like, learning from the Emperor like he’s the young Darth Vader you take out on his Anakin? Yeah, he’s Anakin Skywalker. And yeah, that was that and that was very intentional on the part of Bill Lawrence, the career Oh, so

Elisa Camahort Page  39:44

lots of musical theater references a child loved. Oh, yeah, of course. We love that. And lots of easter eggs. These are three was full of callbacks, season one and two. Yeah, the callbacks, and that’s what builds cult following some pop culture in my opinion is winter sand service. Things you We’ll catch because you’re a loyal fan and it makes you feel appreciated. You’re in the know. Yeah. Like I’m in the know I recognize that guy with a C from episode one season one, write your report in the airplane. Like I recognize his back and that means I’m a fan and now they’re recognizing I’m a fan.

Maria Ross  40:17

Okay, before we wrap up I real quick want to talk about beard because I loved that the show had latitude to take some of these tangents and some of the episodes and other

Elisa Camahort Page  40:26

time loved his episode when he wore the psychedelic pants. And yeah, when he

Maria Ross  40:30

was this whole was his what is it? Was it his day out in Amsterdam, or his night out in Amsterdam? I can’t remember what

Elisa Camahort Page  40:36

city they wrote. I mean, there. There wasn’t another episode in Season Two. That was a different one. Yeah, yes. But also, yes, he did.

Maria Ross  40:42

But there’s been a few shows that we have watched on the various streaming networks where you can tell it’s like they have just trust the network has just trusted the creators so much. Yeah, they’re gonna let them go off on this tangent. And I felt like the beard episode was that Yeah, so what do you think was the significance of the beard episode other than character development? How did you explain it briefly, for people that might not recall what we’re talking about?

Elisa Camahort Page  41:07

Well, there was an episode where he was trying to connect with his girlfriend, they were in a fight. And he ends up it’s like, if you ever saw the movie after hours, where it just, you know, he just runs into obstacle after obstacle before finally finding her and at the end, he’s dressed in this weird outfit. He’s in this weird club, but he starts dancing and you’ve never seen beard, let go physically, let alone emotionally and he starts dancing. And it’s just this incredible catharsis, really. And I, first of all, I think it was just reinforcing there’s more to people than you ever know. And that, you know, and that if you stick with something, let yourself be vulnerable encounter, try to work your way through the challenges. There’s freedom in allowing yourself to do that. He seems so free. Yeah, I have whole a whole thing about like, his girlfriend’s seemed really controlling and weird. And like that, that being part of the happy ending that he marries the weird controlling girlfriend. I’m not so sure.

Maria Ross  42:05

I know. I wasn’t loving that. Yeah. Kind of went with

Elisa Camahort Page  42:09

the whole Jamie and Roy regressing in the last, you know, couple episodes. You know, like, everything isn’t always just forward, right forward. There’s sometimes there’s a backlash. So

Maria Ross  42:19

yeah, yeah. And so you predict that they’re going to maybe do some sort of a spin off of the regimen. heritors, the Richmond array

Elisa Camahort Page  42:26

rang book titled actually,

Maria Ross  42:29

I think we didn’t even go into Trent Graham and his whole arc, but that was amazing as well. So I got four minutes. Yeah, no, no worries. So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and digging into this with me, this was so fun.

Elisa Camahort Page  42:44

I was super excited to do it. I could talk about it all day. And

Maria Ross  42:49

thank you everyone for listening to this very special episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard, please rate and review and follow me on your podcast player of choice. And until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access, show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget. Empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Leading with your heart might be a scary phrase to some old-school leaders out there. But my guest today knows a thing or two about leading a fast-paced, successful company – without sacrificing human connection.

Claude Silver believes showing up with heart and humanity is the key to unlocking greatness in people. Today, she shares her incredible personal story, what a Chief Heart Officer does, how it differs from HR, how empathy has fueled Vayner Media’s growth, and their value of kind candor, as opposed to radical candor. We debunk myths and fears many leaders have about empathy at work, and she shares so many examples of how Vayner Media walks its talk in being a people-first organization while still holding everyone accountable and achieving success.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• The old models of command and control leadership are not going to take you into the future, they will not attract top talent, and the companies will be gone in less than 20 years if they aren’t willing to evolve.
• Empathy doesn’t just roll downhill from leaders to staff, it needs to roll up hill to so that we’re partnering, no matter what our level, but also we’re accountable, no matter what our level.
• You are a giant. Create your mission statement, your northstar statement, that will help you to understand what your purpose is every single day, not only when you have time to do it.
• You were hired for a reason – amplify your skills and your strengths. You are not anyone else around you, you have your own light to shine and your own greatness to bring to your organization at whatever level you are at right now.

“People are not assets, people are your company. Heart is the central operating system of any human being and human beings right now, and probably tomorrow, are the central operating system of your company and culture.” —  Claude Silver

About Claude Silver: Chief Heart Officer, Vayner Media

Claude Silver believes showing up with heart and humanity is the key to unlocking greatness in people. As the world’s first Chief Heart Officer at Vayner Media, she sees it as her job to infuse empathy into every aspect of the organization. As a speaker, podcaster, and LinkedIn influencer, she’s now inspiring other leaders to do the same.

At a young age, Claude was repeatedly told she thinks too much with her heart — something she has now learned is her superpower. As a non-traditional learner, she left college after two years and had an epiphany while on a 93-Day Outward Bound trek: it was up to her to change the narrative of her life, and in order to do so, she had to change her thinking. This power has evolved into what Claude calls “Emotional Optimism”: a concept that is key to her Heart-First leadership style.

With Claude as Chief Heart Officer, Vayner has grown from a team of 400 to a Global team of 2000. She has proven that empathy plays a role in fueling growth and does everything she can to make each and every human feel safe, seen, valued, and included. This involves taking a hard look at how leadership is showing up, identifying cynicism and toxicity, and taking the crucial steps to flush it out.

Claude’s success coaching and leading people and guiding client relationships come from a mantra that she teaches to everyone she crosses paths with: “Be someone people want in the room”.

Connect with Claude Silver:

Website: http://www.claudesilver.com

VaynerMedia: http://www.VaynerMedia.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/casilver/

Instagram: https://instagram.com/claudesilver

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Lead leading with your heart might be a scary phrase to some old school learners out there, but my guest today knows a thing or two about leading a fast paced, successful company without sacrificing human connection. Claude silver believes showing up with heart and humanity is the key to unlocking greatness and people as the world’s first Chief Heart Officer at VaynerMedia. Working alongside influencer marketer and best selling author Gary Vaynerchuk. She coaches inspires and empowers everyone to uphold the culture of connection and empathy that Gary has built as a speaker podcaster and LinkedIn influencer, she’s now inspiring other leaders to do the same. With Claude as Chief Heart Officer Vayner has grown from a team of 400 to a global team of 2000. She’s proven that empathy plays a role in fueling growth, and does everything she can to make each and every human feels safe seen, valued and included. This involves taking a hard look at how leadership is showing up identifying cynicism and toxicity and taking the crucial steps to flush it out. At a young age Claude was repeatedly told she thinks too much with her heart, something she’s now learned is her superpower. As a non traditional learner. She left college after two years and had an epiphany while on a 93 day Outward Bound track, it was up to her to change the narrative of her life. And in order to do so she had to change her thinking this power has evolved into what Claude calls emotional optimism a concept that is key to our heart first leadership style. Today Claude shares her incredible personal story what a Chief Heart Officer does, how it differs from HR how empathy has fueled VaynerMedia is growth and their value of kind candor as opposed to radical candor, we debunk myths and fears many leaders have about empathy at work, and she shares so many examples of how VaynerMedia walks its talk and being a people first organization while still holding everyone accountable and achieving success. This was such an enlightening conversation. Take a listen.

Claude Silver  03:40

Hello, Claude silver Chief Heart Officer of VaynerMedia I am so happy we are finally having this conversation. Thank you so much for your patience. I’m delighted and honored to be here. We are speaking to each other from opposite coasts, which I always love. Let’s hear a little bit about you know, we heard your bio prior to us queuing up this interview. But tell us a little bit about your story and your epiphanies in your career just briefly, and then let’s get to what the heck a Chief Heart Officer actually does, because I think your story is important talking to how you got to that role. So tell us how it all came to be. Okay, great. Well, what I will say is I was a very poor student and because I was a very poor student, that’s probably the first time the first topic I guess, where I didn’t feel like I belonged. I was a great athlete, friend. My parents have degrees up the wazoo. My brother has my brother’s younger than me, but he now has degrees up the up the wazoo. And I was wildly dyslexic. My mom at the time was a elementary school teacher. So she figured that out it all those tests, whatnot. Now she’s a family therapist, social worker, but I’ve really struggled in school to just fit the pieces together. The things I could remember song lyrics, the things I could remember or poetry, the things I could remember were things that really spoke to me, right. But at the end of the day algebra didn’t speak to me. So taking that three times on time, taking the SATs three times on time does well, and I just had this I just felt like I had this missing chap, all throughout Junior High in high school, even though I was the captain of the tennis team, or the president of the student, class Council, whatever, I just didn’t feel whole, quite frankly. And I spent some of my adolescence and early 20s trying to fill up those holes in the ways that we do it with substances with relationships, and so forth and so on. Until I took myself out of college. When I was at my sophomore year, I was going nowhere fast I was making bad decisions with with bad boys and bad drugs. And I told my parents that I needed to find the longest wilderness course I possibly could, because I needed to get my ass kicked, quote, unquote, and be careful what you wish for I found a 93 day wilderness Outward Bound course, that took place in start in the Colorado Rockies, then went into the canyon lands and Grand Canyon and Joshua Tree. And off I went and I was the only young woman with nine young men, we were all 1819 20 years old, carrying 80 pounds on our back. And the first day, I literally just wanted to break my leg, I was breaking my ankle would break we were it was snowing, we were climbing traversing up these mountains, you know, 13,001 mountains. And I was so unprepared. And I was at the bottom. And the story is actually very significant for me. I was at the bottom of the trail all the guys were in front of me. And I was crying and it was snowing. And it just stank, right? Even though I asked for this, this was day one. And the instructor came all the way down, down. I had a female instructor for this time. And she said to me, what is going on in your head. And I said to her, Well, I’m singing Nine Inch Nails had like a whole black is your soul, I’d rather die than give you control. And she says to me, you better get another song in your head. And that was the first time ever it clicked that I can change the story up here. I can change the narrative. I don’t have to be the dumb dyslexic. I don’t have to, you know, I don’t have to be that person. I don’t have to be that person that’s into drugs. I don’t have to tell myself the stories or sing those songs. And so that I will say 93 days later, I came out a very different person. That was when I first learned the term servant leadership. And I wanted to be a servant leader. That’s what I knew I no longer use the word serve and use the word empathetic or heart based. That’s what I came out knowing I came out really like getting in touch with who I am my strengths, my superpowers and the fact like I’m a feeler, that’s who I am. And that’s okay, more than okay, so what I’ll say is I eventually went back to school, studied a lot of psychology and human development and everything I could possibly get my hands on in terms of spirituality and growth and development, and clarify buoyancy and all of that stuff. And then I was in San Francisco, right place, right time. 1990 eight.com. Boom, the first one. And there I went, I found my first internet, internet. I was here then too. So I’m assuming I see where this is going. Yeah. So off I went. And the rest is really history. When I say I’ve only worked in digital companies. I’ve only worked at advertising companies, you knowing San Francisco at that time that was ripe for innovation and creativity in the wild, wild west. And I was part of that, which was incredible, especially someone who didn’t know what they wanted to do. It didn’t have options necessarily. I just kept on going to where the job was. So one thing led to another. I had an incredible career as a strategist. I moved from San Francisco to London, I was moved for a role right before I turned 40. And my whole world kind of opened up in a new place, learning new things about myself. It didn’t have people to hang on to I didn’t have kind of old stories and beliefs and and I and I had a wonderful time in London and had a really, really successful career. And I met Gary Vaynerchuk and I met him in August of 2013. We hit it off. We had a three minute conversation on the phone. I came to New York in September of 2013. And we had a great meeting of the heart over a coffee and a grapefruit at a coffee shop on 70 up in Lexington. And the rest was history. I left that meeting, saying to my best friend, I know I need to work with this guy. And I have a feeling he needs to work with me. And so I joined VaynerMedia nine years ago, which is my longest relationship and certainly my longest job and

10:00

I started, let’s see, I was it was May of 2014, I was one of the three or four oldest people, a woman in a fairly kind of machismo boys club at that time, it was amazing. Off I went, and I was his first senior vice president that he hired. And I’m almost gonna get to the point where we got Chief Heart Officer, but I’m gonna stop in a second, I ran our largest account. And while I was running that large account, I kind of had a team of 60 people, and really just was, we were teaching each other liberal arts, I would have them read poetry, I would have them bring in Jim Morrison poetry. And we would digest that rather than going through kind of like the campaign we just launched. And Gary started to have me go to the other offices. And I said to him, hey, super cool, love to go to San Francisco. I’m happy to go to London. But you know, my work is over here in New Jersey. And he said, just go to that thing that you do, the thing that you do. And that was it. Bingo. He saw, he saw me not for the strategy or the client schmoozing. And all that stuff. He saw the superpower of being able to change narratives, being empathetic, having a big heart caring, having a group of 60 people, and literally just having a good time making them feel good. And one thing led to another and I actually decided to quit, because I didn’t want to do advertising anymore. All I wanted to do was be with people. So I went to him. Thank you so much. This is the best place ever love it here. You’re the best. I no longer want to do advertising. I just don’t care. And he said, What do you want to do? And I said, I only care about the people here. I only care about the heartbeat. And that’s where I’ll stop. Because then we created the role. Chief Heart. Yeah, oh my God, that’s like, long, that was much longer than you wanted me to go on, but meandered about meandered. I don’t have a linear Yeah, career journey at all. So there’s so much in there to unpack for a second, because first of all, I’m sending my nine year old an outward bound when he is old enough to go because that sounds amazing. And he I think he needs it. But also the fact that you finally embraced a model of leadership that was heart LED. And I think we’re in a time where these discussions are starting to happen. I do keynotes, I do leadership trainings, and I’m being brought in to talk about empathy. And like you, my background is marketing and brand strategy, I came to this empathy, work through connecting and engaging through marketing with people as human seeing their humanity, and having that be effective. And then building that out now into researching my first book, and now on my second book, which is about how to be an empathetic leader without losing yourself in the process, because that’s the struggle now, now that there’s enough converts out there to what you got converted to, and really not converted to you actually just uncovered and unearthed what was already inside of you. And understood that that was a superpower for business success for leadership success and for unleashing potential in people. And that’s where all of us, I call all of us empathy warriors, we’ve got to keep banging the drum for the skeptics to say, Hey, this is a bottom line benefit to your business to operate in this way. And the old models are dying, the old models of command and control and Work is work. And it’s nothing personal and all this crap, we’ve been fed our whole careers, it’s not going to take you into future success. And I even with the book that I wrote, one of the generational experts I spoke to went so far as to say the companies that have those cultures are going to be dead in 10 to 20 years, they’re not going to be able to attract top talent. So I love that you found this place and you carved out this role. And tell us a little bit more about what you do in that role as Chief Heart Officer and what how that differs from I assume you have a head of HR, maybe you don’t, I don’t know. But how does that differ from a classical HR role? Yeah, first, just to echo what you said. I mean, those leaders in those corporations are going to be our care very, very soon. And Gen Z is here. And they’re proud. And they’re feelers, and we’re all going to be working for them very soon, which is a great thing. So when Gary said, you’re going to be Chief Heart Officer, cool. I knew what that was. It made sense to me in my soul. And I said a couple of things. One, I’ve already been at this company for 16 months, what are we doing? What are we building? And he said, we’re building the single greatest human organization in the history of time, wonderfully aspirational. And that is our vision still today. That’s great. Okay, I need to know that too. What is success look like for me? How do we know if I’m successful? I’ve never done HR, I never wanted to do HR. He said you will touch an impact every single employee and fill the agency with empathy. So we were 310 people then or 2000 across the globe. Many many companies under

Claude Silver  15:00

Have the umbrella of Vayner x. And so the first thing I did first things I did one, I could not step into an HR role, because I never did HR that would be out of integrity, and I don’t believe in HR. So I changed the department name to people and experience to, I changed the way we hired from culture fit, which we had been doing, which is how we grew very quickly to skill set fit and culture edition. And that allowed us to start to look in different places for people. And that allowed us to diversify the floor, which was very important for me walking, three, I removed the need for college education. These are all things I did within the first month that was like, boom, boom, boom, why? Because it’s college isn’t for everyone. And you’re looking at someone who struggled through my first rendition with college, I mean, so, which is fantastic. And we now have an incredible residency program where we bring people in at 17 a team. And that’s fantastic. And then I really had to work on scale. So to touch every single human being means high touch means I need to be available and accessible consistently. And so I have what I call 15 minute meetings, and I’m able to get a lot out in 15 minutes, people come to me i proactively go to them, we do now have someone that oversees the people and experience department, it’s not me, my job is literally to, to mirror Gary, in those rooms. And wherever I go is to really help someone feel safe and seen and that they matter. And then north really helped them get out of their own way so they can thrive so they can soar. Right. And you know, I’m sitting here in my office here, I don’t have an any desk in the office, I never wanted a separation. You know, I wanted to be a psychotherapist when I grew up. And then I figured there were other ways to be of service. And I found a wonderful way where I can be here in the great thing is that I have all that business acumen I’ve worked for 20 years on the floor. I know what a p&l is. I know when we work with p&g, one of the things they’re going to talk about is efficacy and peace of mind. You know, I know these things I can help people out. So my job is really to put their hearts in the center of my heart, and to hold space to create and hold space with them. Learning and Development, recruiting, retention, scaling, whatever it is, we’ll build it, and it will dot line to me, right? So I love that you had discrete things, concrete things that you wanted to accomplish when you first came into this role. You mentioned earlier that Gary especially has a value of empathy. I’ve heard him speak about that. How does that show up? How does that value of empathy or being able to strengthen your empathy? Can you give us some examples of how that shows up in the business? One or two just notes in terms of how meetings are run, or how you work with clients or dealing with folks that are having difficult circumstances? Give us some examples about how that value shows up in practicality, because especially in my work, what we’re talking about, we want to be an empathetic organization or brand. Great. What does that actually mean? How are you walking your talk? And so I always want to get to what are the actions and the behaviors that happen at VaynerMedia. So you all know you’re going in the right direction, and you’re continuing to maintain that value that’s so important to Gary and the entire executive team of empathy. I mean, it’s who we are, we call our culture the Honey Empire. It’s not the empire of honey is 51%, honey 49% Empire. 51% is how we treat people, how we show up in rooms, how we make people feel, this is what it’s all about. This is it. This is the Alpha and the Omega, removing fear and cynicism and confronting that with a kind in a kind way. We are rooted in kindness and compassion. Empathy is an emotion, the way that comes out is the kindness and compassion. Which Yeah, yeah, we learn when we’re two years old, three years old, basically, right? It just gets there we go. We forget about it. And we stop being you know, are these imaginative mystical beings that we are as children and start to live this very linear, I have to follow the rules. And there are no rules we trust first, how does that show up? Every single person that comes in here, every single one, you can be a CFO, you could be a copywriter, we all have you in one orientation, which we run every two weeks. And in that orientation, they are sitting down with subject matter experts, three days, subject matter experts, they’re sitting down with me, they’re going through our culture, why we think the way we do, how we think the way we do, why, how this organization was built, it’s, you know, we’re built from an entrepreneurial mindset. We’re built from a disrupter mindset. We’re not built from an agency guy. We’ve just so wonderful. We put ourselves first our consumers Second, our clients third, how does that show up? We really do our best to hold people account trouble for themselves, their team, and then the work to be done the job to be done, which is reaching those consumers with videos, which is what we do. Removing fear is not hard, if you know where to look and you know how to do it. Providing psychological safety is not hard if you know how to do that to yourself. And so we teach a lot of these, what is called soft skills can stem that word, universal skills, human skill, a long human skills, we have vast trainings on how to give feedback, how to get feedback in a very kind and clear, specific actionable way. We have manager training up the wazoo one on 1102103. And you learn how to walk in this world how to walk in this agency, and I truly believe that has an incredible knock on effect to how you are in the world, I really believe we are teaching hard and universal human skills here. And this is so interesting. And this is what I knew would happen is we’re going to go into all these topics because I couldn’t wait to get my hands on you. With the book I’m working on right now I’m talking about the pillars of being an effective empathetic leader, as I mentioned, while still expecting excellence, while still setting boundaries, and while still avoiding burnout. And one of the pillars is this idea of self awareness. And across all of this, though, is this idea of accountability that you can have empathy and accountability can coexist. So what does that look like for folks listening that are like, how do I tie those things together? In my culture? Is there a specific way that you tie that together? Is it through rewards and recognition? Is it through performance evaluations? Is it through peer nominated recognition? How do you actually tie the empathy and the accountability together? Or the compassion, heart led leadership and the accountability together in your organization? Can you give us some examples? First and foremost, it’s everything that you said. And it’s well being concentrating on that it’s making sure that we’re providing people in a very holistic way. With wellness programs, it’s making sure that we are leaning in on creating an inclusive place inclusive, yes, religion and race and ethnicity and seen and unseen disabilities, we have the CR G’s learning resource groups, which are for people that identify as LGBTQIA plus, or allies as Latina, X and allies as African American or black and allies. And these are wonderful, wonderful groups that people join, because they want to be even closer to those that they identify with, which is really, really cool. And that is all over the place. That is one way that empathy and compassion come out, because we have places for people to go, that really, really want to feel like they belong, because that’s it. That’s the ball game pair. You give people psychological safety, and then you create spaces where people feel like they can belong. They don’t have to deal with a title. They don’t have to, oh, I have to be quiet, because my managers managers in the room, and oh, we know that he or she is really smart. No, anyone can talk. In fact, we have roles here that we now we have entry level roles that we have now, put on a pedestal here to be like this is the role of the work we do. They’re called post creative strategists. And at the end of someone’s signature, or asking them to also put account director, post creative strategist, it’s that important because it’s the work that we do is finding ways in through emotion through empathy, to reach our consumers. So again, the trainings that we do, I would say, our leadership team is better than it’s ever been. It’s accountable. One of the things that Gary has taught me, and I know he’s taught many, many people is what real accountability looks like. And real accountability is being the bigger person. real accountability is taking the responsibility when you know, it’s yours. Now, I’ll give you an example. When someone leaves and I read their exit interview, and they say, Jack really treated me poorly, and no one did anything about it. Well, most often, they didn’t tell anyone about it. But guess what? That is on me. I oversee every person and their experience here, the culture, and that’s on me, which then means I go and talk to my team, whoever’s covering that discipline and say, hey, my friends, when you see smoke way in the distance, because you have a spidey sense, because you’re intuitive because you’re human. And that’s what we do here. We work on intuition. You need to let me know about that smoke. And then you need to go in there with with an extinguisher way before it gets to be 10 feet away or the alarm goes off. That’s how you get rid of cynicism. And that’s how you get rid of fear. By being kind and brave. We are kind, compassionate and countable and wildly ambitious people here and that all works together. It’s called the Empire. After you put the people first is how to get now that it’s us first, then our consumers, then our clients that’s like funky. It’s very, very funky in today’s day and age. And when a client says to us, no, make it red or make it blue, what we say to them is, actually, we provide them with the data, and we provide them with the intel that what your consumers aren’t going to want it blue, and they still say, You know what we want it blue. And we say to them, okay, we are going to go into this with our eyes wide open, we’ve had this conversation, we want the best for you. We are in partnership with you remember, we don’t serve them, we are in partnership with them. And we’re going to go into this with our eyes wide open, which means we have accountability. And you my friend, the client have accountability, because you’ve just made the decision to go against what we know is happening out there on tick tock today. So it’s walking the walk, it’s not just talking the talk, there’s nothing hanging on these walls here in any of our offices that says, Be empathetic VaynerMedia citizen, you are kind like no, you have to act these you have to take action consistent. Is that action in evaluations is that put in meaningful examples of actions for people so they understand as they look around? I’m asking this question because one of the companies that I spoke for health care system last fall, their change management team did this amazing thing. And having a background in change management from earlier in my career, I was really impressed by this. They took their company values, which are often just a pretty poster on the wall. For a lot of organizations, they don’t actually mean anything in day to day activity, but they took their company values, and they created documentation, not a lot of documentation, very simple to say these are examples of this value in action. And as you write your reviews for people, these are the types of things you need to be looking for. So that when you evaluate them on that value or that value, there’s something concrete behind that. And I just thought, so simple. So almost so obvious, but never done in so many organizations where they just again, they just have that pretty poster on the wall. But they don’t give folks any guidance of here’s what we expect that to look like in practice, is that something at VaynerMedia that is talked about is documented is highlighted, how is that brought to bear so it’s a continuous learning cycle for people. I’m really glad you brought that up. So it took the PTT a year to create core competencies, we have just rolled them out, core competencies are both foundational how we behave and functional are skills. Foundational comes first honey comes first before the Empire. And the foundational skills are leadership communication, accountability and growth mindset. And within those four buckets, there is a this is how we expect you to act for every level, every department, and then we can do that for the functional ones. And that is in your peer review that’s in your quarterly review. That’s in your annual review. That’s everywhere. I love that because then everyone’s speaking the same language. And this is why one of the other pillars in the new book is about clarity. Because clarity is kind clarity is compassionate, because now we can understand each other and there’s no guesswork, there’s no assumption, right? So you can be responsible for your growth, I’m going to help you, I’m going to help I’m going to do everything I can can’t change your behavior, I have no control over you will give you training, we’ll give you this, you want a meditation app, we’ll give you that too. But at the end of the day, very clear. This is what you’re expected to do here. And to get that promotion right here. And so what that has done, because I have a feeling you’re going to ask me about this in a second is that has removed a big chunk of entitlement, a big chunk of coddling. And that’s huge because as a very empathetic and kind organization that can be our kryptonite, and was our kryptonite for sure for a while there when we didn’t have such structure and such rigor because we are osmosis learners here, but we’ve grown up, and now we have to hold ourselves accountable. You know, I had to go to a very, very, very senior person the other day and say, I just need to let you know that your client has come to us with this set that you said this, what do you got to say about it? Like, I’m not here to punish you. I’m just here to say like this is an issue. What happened in that meeting? When can that person rise to the challenge? I’m not here to punish I trust them. But I have proof right here in writing that there was pretty big misstep. So what are we going to do about that? And how are we going to prevent that from happening because that’s not who we are. Well, and that’s such a great example because again, talking with leaders

30:00

Many of them who think they’re challenged by empathy are actually not practicing true empathy. Because empathy actually takes a lot of strength, you have to really be well grounded in yourself to be able to see another person’s point of view without defensiveness, right. I say that all the time on the show. But this idea of, I’m empathetic, so I’m going to avoid the difficult conversation is actually not empathetic, that no cowardly, you can have the difficult conversation with empathy. This is what I’m constantly beating the drum on. And that was just such a perfect example of you can be empathetic and not run from conflict, not run from difficulty, or what I call the crunchy conversations. Yeah, we call it having kind candor, but not radical candor, kind, candor. And that’s really what works for us, because this is a community and culture rooted in kindness. It is, I mean, how many times have I, we should have a drinking game? How many times have I mentioned kindness already? In this interview, but everything that we do is rooted in Hey, I trust you first, it’s not you’re guilty, and then get out of right. It’s curious how you’re gonna? Yeah, it’s like, well, just tell me what happened there. I’m really curious what happened. And like, let’s figure out what we’re gonna do about this. Now, that kind of stuff. But we have that conversation with people that are entry level jobs all the way up to the C suite. Because why? Well, we’re human. And that’s actually an important point, too, is that it’s at every level, it goes up and down the chain, if you are thinking of a hierarchy, and that’s the thing it doesn’t, the empathy doesn’t just roll downhill from leaders to staff, it needs to roll up hill to so that we’re partnering, no matter what our level, but also we’re accountable, no matter what our level, that’s the thing. And so you know, those entry level roles and the residency I told you about, like, we’re teaching accountability, we’re teaching what it’s like to try to be the bigger person in every situation. Whereas you and I have had more reps, and we’ve had more life experience. So we know that we need to be the bigger person in every situation. And we’re going to fail sometimes, because we are not perfect. And this is not utopia. I’m glad you said that. Because the pushback from a very small chorus of people with the work that I do now. But I’m not here to teach people how to behave. I’m not here to teach people values, I’m here to get the work done. And I always say actually, your work at this is the work as a leader, this is not additional work on top of your work, this is the work. So what would you say to that line of that narrative that some people have of like, well, we just need to get shit done. And I don’t have time to teach you how to be a compassionate person. People are not assets, people are your company. I mean, people will say to me, what is heart mean? And you know, love and this it’s like, heart is the central operating system of any human being and human beings right now, and probably tomorrow, or the central operating system of your company and your cultures. This is my responses, then what are you doing here? Exactly, then go be an individual contributor someplace, my friend. But like, if you can’t get involved are you’re not going to take down your armor in today’s day and age, and you’re going to let someone be vulnerable in front of you and you’re not going to extend grace, generosity, God forbid love, then you really should go someplace else. And that’s okay. Really, it is. What else are we doing here? This is life. And we are now in a very funky time in which it’s work life. It’s live work, I don’t even know, hybrid, it’s this but the pandemic did change us. And we’re not going backwards. And like vulnerabilities cool. My friends. Brene. Brown is like very famous for a reason. Right? There’s another speaker who has a talk called vulnerability is sexy. I always liked that one. So what can you give us some examples around how this culture has fueled growth? Are there any stories you can tell or specific things you can point to? That you definitively know that this is correlated with this movement within the company to codify and articulate empathy and compassion as central to the business model? Sure. I mean, I’ve real life examples, because they come to me all the day all day long. So we had a SVP who really was looking forward to a raise last August didn’t get the raise, and he was told by his manager, and it was stamped by me as well, that he had these things to work on. And those things were very interpersonal, very interpersonal. And so he asked me if I could coach him and we went on this four month coaching spree where he came in, have a lot of questions, I asked people and all that kind of stuff. And what really like came to fruition was that his insecurity and his imposter syndrome is so loud that that’s all people see and hear when he walks in the room. And he didn’t understand why he wasn’t

Claude Silver  35:00

being taken seriously. But I’m funny. I like to joke around, you know, this is how I dress. And all of a sudden it’s like, Yeah, but what do you cover? And guess what? We all have limiting beliefs. All of us do. So we got into, like, why this impostor syndrome was so loud? Where had it started? It’s kind of like therapy. I’m not a therapist, by any means. And we really work together on at the end of the day, what do you want? Aside from the race? What do you want? I want my team to really value me, okay, well, let’s figure out how they’re going to do that. What are the behaviors that you are doing now, in which you feel as though contradictory to you being valued, and he had a list of those, and we would work this every week, knee, and homework, and all of this stuff. And he finally landed on who these two might be hit, he got very clear, this is a very smart person, these are the behaviors I am going to change. And these are the behaviors I’m going to go all in on. What I will say is Yesterday, we were just done a talent planning meeting where his name came up. And every person on the C suite said, if you would have asked me this question, six months ago, nine months ago, the answer’s no. What I will say is this guy has grown and evolved. And he’s really a pleasure to be around. So things like it’s just spending time with people. It’s having high touch, it’s giving a shit about people. And these are things that I believe, like I believe everyone needs to embody. But certainly leaders need to embody in today’s day and age, and so this was a period of someone that’s probably very close to my age. But the way we do this with other people with all different levels is having these conversations, which is what is that behavior that you just did, preventing you from doing when you don’t manage your time and manage your energy? Well, like, what are you left with? Yeah, I feel burned out. Okay. Well, I understand that, let’s figure out what got you to this burnout place aside from work in an advertising agency, and we move fast, it’s today. And so really talking to people about how my job is facilitate growth and change. It always has been. And if I can do that, then this person can thrive, when they can identify what is blocking them, and make a pact to really move on from that, you know, I work with people on what I would call mission statements, or Northstar statements. And first of all, they come in and we do this whole whiteboard exercise here. They might say, Yeah, I think they might come in with a mission statement already, which is, I’m really good at this one by halftime. Okay, well, when I have time is not part of your mission statement. So let’s figure out what we’re gonna do. Change that sentence or win the battle when I have time? Yeah. Because we want this to be powerful for you. Not for me, I got my mission statement. But I want you to walk away after three or four weeks of working together, and be able to put the poster right on your laptop and on your refrigerator. And wherever else you need to see it. So you can be reminded that you are a giant, my friend. I love that. Talk to me a little bit about some of the challenges that come from operating the business this way, and creating a culture, what are some places where things might have gone awry, I’m thinking especially the people listening going, ha, my company will never get to that point. My company is so soulless right now, it would feel like a Herculean effort for us to ever get to that kind of point. If they’re even going to try they need to be aware of where some of the pitfalls might be. So what are some challenges that you have one or two challenges that you have with this kind of culture? So a challenge that we may have had, if this was a different company, we had a different CEO and CFO is Yeah, but like people are here to work. Like, what are you doing there? What are you doing with these trainings? Or what are you doing? Like why do we care so much about people? Like why is it so important? You know, it’s costing us money, those types of things. What I always say to people, and I’ll get to the question, but what I say to people when they say to me, well, we don’t work for Gary Vaynerchuk now Well, I didn’t either for X amount of years, and I was still may I was still me. I was still the same person. Let me help you out camino. Yo, you want to mentor okay, I’m happy to mentor you like can I do what they want? And we talk about that within your sphere of influence? You model and then people go well, clods killing it. How is she doing that? And you give people permission to act and lead in a different way when they see it? And so that they can like shine their own light. Let’s not go back to Claude, like Claude has taken and I got my own set of issues to deal with you don’t want my Gaby Karen go be Jack OB you know, do you that’s the most important thing. Now. The reason I say to you, is because that can be a pitfall when Pete When I can remember. So I’ve been doing this role for seven years now. I would say the first two years, maybe two and a half years Gary used the word hustle. And I would have a lot of people come into this office freaking out with anxiety. I want to be just like Gary, but I can’t work 18 hours a day. I want to be just like Gary I want to hustle harder, all of the stuff that I just, I can’t work like that. And I was like, hey, no one’s asking him to do that he does it because he loves it, his work is a hobby, this is what he does. You want to go play soccer on the weekends, that’s really important for you to carve that time out. And I want to help you help empower, you have that conversation with your manager that you need to shut off at seven, or at nine or at six, whatever that is, you got to go be you. Anyway, Gary does not use the word hustle at all anymore, which is awesome. And you know, he has an enormous influence out in the world. And I’m sure that he got a lot of information on, maybe that wasn’t the best word to use for the time that we’re in. So being you not wanting to emulate, yeah, it’s great to look up to people and learn from them. But here for a reason we chose you. And so let’s figure out how to amplify all of your life skills. Remember, we hired you for skill set fit, not because you like John Mayer, and I like John Mayer to like, Okay, that’s great. That’s how people hire, they’re like, oh, yeah, I can go six hours on a Greyhound bus with this guy. It’s I don’t want to talk to anyone for six hours on a Greyhound bus, please. So, you know, I don’t want to talk to my husband for that long. Yeah, exactly. So when we were not honest with people in terms of, and we brought this up already, when we were not forthcoming with really truthful feedback. And this is what you need. Right? Now, this is a vulnerability. And this is what we need to see. And we’re going to help you get there and hear the action. When we did not do that we created entitlement. And it felt as though people could just kind of hide out do their thing. I don’t know what they were doing YouTube for 20 hours, like, because we’re not micromanagers. It’s funny, because that’s actually what led to the second book I’m working on is that I was hearing from leaders going, I’m really trying to be empathetic. But folks are actually taking advantage of my empathy now. And they’re using the words and the language back at me, you know, I’m telling them to do a spreadsheet and they’re going, I’m sorry, that doesn’t bring me joy. And now you’re disrespecting my boundaries. So I’m going to need to take a break. So things like that, and we would talk through it. That’s not actually empathy. But also that idea that I said earlier is that empathy needs to flow both ways. And so there are groups of people, that muscle has atrophied. It’s innate to all of us as human beings, but it can atrophy. And if we don’t, if we neglect it, and we don’t strengthen it on a continuous basis, even when it’s hard to even when it it hurts to strengthen it, it doesn’t mean you stop, you don’t stop working out just because your muscle feels sore, right? And you also don’t expect six pack abs the first time you go to the gym. So for some people, it is that ability to keep working at it. Okay, Curiosity is the number one trait of empathic people, right. So let me ask questions. Ooh, the first time I ask questions as a leader, when I’ve never asked anybody on my team questions before, they’re like, what’s going on? Why is he interrogating us? Why is he asking about how our weekends went? It’s gonna be weird. And so but it’s okay. It’s okay to add, it’s okay to let people know, you, as a leader are on the journey, to strengthening your empathy and to share that with them and say, Hey, I’m working on this. It’s gonna be weird for a while, but just go with me on it. Right? That we just the vulnerable conversations. Yeah, or afraid to because we’ve been taught to armor ourselves from pretty much everyone except ourselves. And this is all a journey that we’re all waking up to. And I say all that’s a generalization, but many, many, many, many, many people are waking up to the fact that work can be done differently, and from different places, that it’s okay to be vulnerable. Be courageous, it’s okay to have emotion in the workplace. What we want you to do and we will help in any way we can, is to be able to regulate your emotion. We don’t practice toxic positivity here. We practice positivity. Emotional optimism is what I call it, which is the fact that shits going to happen, clients is going to yell at you, this is going to happen your dog is going to get sick. I don’t want to work with this person, but the sky is not going to fall. And that means listen, we are all going to go through emotions. We are all going to have hard days and hard moments, but we have hope for another day the sun will shine we will reach out for support. We don’t have to suffer in silence which is a huge thing. I think we just need to have posters across the sky right now please silence and that’s a whole nother issue. But most importantly going back to down before the one you serve the nine bench now story I told you about. You can change the narrative in your head. This doesn’t this might suck right now. It’s not gonna suck forever. You might feel really dumb right now. But if you reach out to someone, I guarantee you they are going to show you all the ways in which you matter. And what you’re smart and what you’re valued all that stuff. But if you keep everything in

Maria Ross  45:00

Inside, you will burn a hole in yourself. That’s dramatic, but it’s true. I mean, it is. And I think the thing we all want to get across that are trying to talk about this shift in leadership and the shift in culture is that I always talk about it as both. And it’s not either or it’s not empathetic, or competitive, compassionate or ambitious, it’s both they can coexist. And all the things you’re talking about, you know, a skeptic listening might go and go, Oh, my gosh, it’s gonna take so much time, when am I going to actually do work. And you’re doing all this in service of the goal of the organization, which is to get work done, which is to meet KPIs, which is to crush your goals, whatever that is, you’re doing this while you’re doing all that work. It’s not either or, and by the way, it is work, and you are getting paid, and you do have benefits. And this isn’t a free for all, we is not a playground, we don’t work on a playground, we can have fun. There’s ice coffee, but there’s no Foosball or ping pong. Like we have to remember like, there is a job to be done here. Just like there are journeys for us to go on. As humans, there are journeys and jobs for us to do hear, and you are being paid to do a job. That does not mean you need to show up every day and hit homeruns. That’s impossible, right. And for leaders that fear, this blurring of emotion being brought to work, number one, hopefully we’ve learned when I when I wrote the first book, it was pre pandemic, and people didn’t get it. They didn’t understand if it was a business book or personal development book. And I was like, No, it’s a business book. But now they kind of get it because those lines are blurring. And that makes old school leaders very uncomfortable, because they have spent their careers separating emotion and, and work or ambition and compassion. Now we’re saying there’s no rules, you know, and so I have empathy for them of like, they’re like, Wait, what just happened? Like, it’s 30 years, I was operating this way. Now you’re telling me I can do this. But at the same time, it also doesn’t mean when I talk to C suite, and I say that doesn’t mean you’re crying on the floor with your employees every day, because I know that’s what you’re imagining. That’s not what we’re talking about here.

Claude Silver  47:11

Might be crying, but not every day. Yeah. People take things to such extremes when they’re afraid. There’s nothing to be afraid of comes to letting a person be their authentic self. Like, that’s who you hired, I hope. And if by the way, you find out that you hired Jack, you thought Jack was like this, and Jack turns out to be that well, then you’re gonna have a conversation with Jack, like, Hey, what’s up, I notice like you used to be really peppy, or you said you crush up with clients. And you’ve kind of really been not going out to see clients lately. Like, you have to feel comfortable enough to have these honest conversations, again, kind candor. And back to you what you were saying one of our things that we say all the time is yes. And and that’s the growth mindset. Yeah, yeah, sound. And because there always is an ad. And people like to think in binary terms, it’s black, or it’s white, but it is gray. So much of what we’re talking about is gray. And so much of what we’re talking about was also extremely subjective. Well, that’s why empathetic and Compassionate Leadership can look different to your point, depending on who you are. You don’t have to fake it and be overly emotional, and sappy and whatever. You know, if that’s not you, you can find a way to tap into your human emotion and compassion in whatever way is still true to who you are. As a leader. Yes. And being a leader that leads with heart. I mean, you’ve now talked to me for 45 minutes. I’m there’s nothing gooey gooey about me. This is the real for not crying. So no, it’s not about unicorns and fuzzy rainbow exactly about life, life and having the acceptance that this is about life. I don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow. You and I have no clue what’s going to happen. In 30 days. We’ll see what happens. We’ll see what happens. But I could talk to you for another hour, but I won’t keep you so thank you so much for your time and your insights today. We’ll have all your links in the show notes. But can you tell folks, where’s the best place to connect with you? Yep, thank you so much. Dan is awesome. My website, Claude silver.com. And you can always write me there. And I would love to hear from everyone. Awesome. Thank you so much. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, please remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind.

Maria Ross  49:50

For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources booked me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

In 2021, Gallup found that unprecedented numbers of young people identify as LGBTQ+. Why should you as a leader or hiring manager care?  Basically, Gen Z is the queerest, most gender-diverse generation  – and they are under attack on a daily basis which distracts them mentally and emotionally from innovating, delivering, and contributing their vast talents to the team. If you want to fuel your company’s growth, compete, and win, you need to empathize with and understand transgender rights and inclusion.

Today, Leo Caldwell and I talk about how Gen Z views gender identity and corporate culture, the growing mental health epidemic among trans folks, how the current climate of anti-trans hate and legislation could be impacting many of your workers on a daily basis, what your company can do to support trans employees and practical steps you can take to foster inclusion to attract and retain top talent. Leo also shares his own personal experience and busts some myths about transgender life.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• The standards of care for trans and other LGBTQ+ youth and adults has evolved a lot in the last 20 years, but there is still work to be done in society. 
• Gen Z is the generation that is going to change the workplace and expectations in the workplace. They expect allyship and flexibility and that your workplace will actually stand up and be vocal on issues. 
• There are not necessarily more queer and trans people than there used to be – it only appears so because it is no longer illegal and the fear that stopped many previous generations is not still there for many people. It is also hard to identify if you don’t have the language around that identity. 
• You need to have people who are part of the community help solve the problem. You cannot understand the issues minority communities are facing without bringing them in to be part of the solution. 

“Gen Z is going to change the workplace and expectations in the workplace…we’re at a spot of gender transformation.You’re either going to be a proactive leader, or you’re going to be reactive if you haven’t done something in the next 2 or 3 years.” —  Leo Caldwell

Episode References: 

• The Research Institute on Gender Therapeutics
• Their LinkedIn page
• Harvard Business Review article,”Companies are Failing Transgender Employees“”
• 2022 Gallup poll
• Erin Reed, Erin in the Morning blog
• National Center for Transgender Equality
• Current anti-trans legislation tracker 
• Human Rights Campaign (HRC)
• Paula Stone Williams, TedX
• Empathy Edge Podcast – Cori Lovejoy: A Trans Woman’s Journey Transforming Self and Organizational Culture

About Leo Caldwell: LGBTQ+ Educator and Speaker

Leo Caldwell is an LGBTQ+ educator and speaker with a focus on the trans community. He has presented to a variety of audiences including Gannett USA TODAY Network, University of Oregon, local fire/police departments, and various non-profits/youth organizations. He is currently a lecturer at Ball State University and Comms Consultant for The Research Institute for Gender Therapeutics. Leo has a bachelor’s in journalism and a master’s in digital storytelling. He combines his storytelling, virtual training expertise and years of lived experience as a trans man to inspire empathy and inclusivity for all genders within organizations.

Connect with Leo Caldwell:  

Website: https://leocaldwell.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leocaldwell

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work, to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Some facts leaders and companies need to know. In 2021, Gallup found that unprecedented numbers of young people identify as LGBTQ plus, in 2022. They found that the percentage of US adults who self identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or something other than heterosexual, has increased to a new high of 7.1%, which is double the percentage from 2012 When Gallup first measured it, and it’s only expected to go up. They also found one in five Gen Z adults identify as LGBTQ. More facts as of this recording in June 2023. Anti trans bills continue to be introduced across the United States. 556 bills and 49 states were 89 have passed 369 are active and 104 have failed. Why should you as a leader or hiring manager care? Basically, Gen Z is the clearest, most gender diverse generation and they’re under attack on a daily basis, which distracts them mentally and emotionally from innovating, delivering and contributing their vast talents to the team. If you want to fuel your company’s growth, compete and win, and I’m sure you do, you need to empathize with and understand transgender rights and inclusion. My guest today Leo Caldwell is an LGBTQ plus educator and speaker with a focus on the trans community. A former journalist, he has presented to companies, universities, local police and fire departments, and various nonprofits and youth organizations. And he’s currently a lecturer at Ball State University. He also is the comms consultant for the Research Institute for Gender therapeutics, and combines his storytelling, virtual training, expertise and years of lived experience as a trans man to inspire empathy and inclusivity for all genders within organizations. Today, we talk about how Gen Z views gender identity and corporate culture, the growing mental health epidemic among trans folks how the current climate of anti trans hate and legislation could be impacting many of your workers on a daily basis, what your company can do to support trans employees, and practical steps you can take to foster inclusion to attract and retain top talent. Leo also shares his own personal experience, and we bust some myths about transgender life. This is such an important episode. Please take a listen.

04:18

Welcome Leo Caldwell to the empathy edge podcast. This has been a while in the making. And I’m so excited to finally talk with you after fan girling you on LinkedIn for the longest time. So welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here. I am so interested in your work and more importantly, interested in your life. So tell us a little bit about your story. And you know, from your story, it’ll be pretty clear how you’ve gotten to the work that you’re doing now. But tell us about what it is that you are doing now and give us a little bit of background into who you are. 

04:57

ria

Leo Caldwell  05:00

Very Evangelical, very conservative. And I was really all in Pentecostal, I loved it. I loved the religion until we started talking about queerness. And I realized, oh, no, I like women. And at the time, you know, I was a woman, I was assigned female at birth, and then transitioned in my early 20s. But at the time, I didn’t even know what it meant to be trans. So I just knew, Okay, I’m queer. This religion does not align with my values, my belief system as a human. How do I navigate that, and I always say that losing that religion was my first heartbreak, because I was so in it, and so passionate about it up until the point where, yeah, the messaging around being queer was just basically you’re gonna burn in hell, and there wasn’t much you could do about it. And so from that point, I was just looking for a home and a family, because my family is extremely, extremely religious. So in my early 20s, I started going to the gay bar. This is, you know, the early aughts. So 2003 ish, not a lot of information in the media about what it means to be trans really didn’t understand the concept of a trans man. So again, just kind of saw myself as this like butch lesbian. So it wasn’t really sure even what was possible. And that’s something as I do trainings and conversations with people, they keep talking about all these new identities. And I’m like, No, it’s not new identities, people exist, they just don’t know what’s possible. And we’re like, creating language for possibility. And I live that experience of just not knowing what was possible. So yeah, I started meeting trans people in the queer club, and I was like, Okay, this is a thing. And this is actually probably more what aligns with who I am and how I feel. But there were still a lot of obstacles in 2003, to get in care to finding out what even means, what does it look like? I actually, you know, would order books, I think Amazon was around then. But I would order books on the internet, you know, and, and read things. Jameson Greene is one of the first books I read. And now we’re connected on LinkedIn. And I’d also had like that fan girl is what I still call myself moment. But I just consumed as much as I could to find out about what it means to be trans. And then I was in college. And so I had access to care through the campus. But it took me a while actually, through this process dropped out of school, because I was coming out to my parents, and they weren’t accepting and just like going through all this, like really emotional stuff. And so college was not a priority. It was like, let’s get through this, let’s become who I want to become. And from that I worked two jobs worked at PetSmart in blockbuster, which when I say blockbuster, people are like, how old are you? You know, and so I worked those two jobs, and was like, Man, I can’t I can’t do this, I gotta go back to school at some point. So I went back to school. And that’s when I accessed care. The first time around, I did it the second time since 2007. And I actually was the first person on campus, actually, Ball State to access hormone treatments and their clinic. And the director of the clinic was like, hey, you know, you’re going to kind of be an experiment, but I have been going to sessions, and I do have an understanding. Yeah. And so it was very, it was scary. But it was really exciting. And I felt supported. At the time though, I actually just wanted to have top surgery, which is double mastectomy, but I wasn’t able to access that without taking the hormones. So the standards of care have changed quite a bit. And people are more empowered in their own journey. So anyways, get all this care get this kind of support at school, I ended up going into journalism. So I worked in a newsroom, I got my first job when I was still a junior in college. So my last part of my junior year in my senior year is working full time at the local newspaper. Still not out in the workplace, didn’t feel comfortable to be out. Again, this is 2007 to 2009. Ish. I had heard a lot of transphobic jokes in the newsroom. So clearly wasn’t a place that I was going to do this. So I have a question. So you were already going through gender affirming health care. But at work, you were still presenting as a woman? Yeah. So how did that impact you of sort of having to lead those two lives? It was very strange, but also kind of used to it with my family, right? My family kind of had this expectation of me living two lives. And overtime, as I’ve come out to more and more people, one of the things that have really changed is like I’ve had to either hide or lie a lot. And now like even I’m not even into like white lies, right? You know, like, if someone asked me, does this dress look good? I’ll be like, no, because I’ve spent so much of my early life happens to lie about things that lie in feels really awful. And so in the workplace. What was interesting is I was already struggling because I was in the Midwest and I was a butch lesbian, and I felt that there wasn’t a lot of camaraderie. I felt like people didn’t know how to interact with me because I didn’t fit into gender boxes are ready. And so I was already cautious and kind of like, I don’t know that these are my people. But what was interesting is I actually worked in for Gwinnett. And so they own several newspapers. And I transitioned, you know, I was physically, literally changing and, and people really weren’t sure what was going on, and I wasn’t coming out. But my boss at the time got moved to a paper in New Jersey. And he was like, hey, we want to hire you to come out here and be an editor, which was a big step up for me. But I was like, Look, I come out there, I just gotta tell you something like, I go by Leo, I want to use male pronouns. And I don’t want anyone to know about who I was before. And he was very supportive. And it was just interesting, because within two weeks, I went from being a woman in the workplace to a man in the workplace. And now incredible, like, in a really incredible in the sense of like, yes, every experience woman says she’s had in the workplace, I validate and I experienced, and when you’re a man, it’s a whole different situation, I felt seen, I felt heard, I got promoted. Within a year, once I was there, it was just before I would sit like a table where we’d make decisions. And I would say something and kind of felt like people might with my word didn’t have wait, you know. And then as a male presenting person in those spaces, it’s like, I would say something, and it was the gospel. So it was just a really big transformation of, and then I lived in the workplace stealth for two years, so no one knew I was trans at that point. And I wasn’t out professionally, and I wasn’t out, personally out on the east coast. So I did this little stealth thing for a while. But it really felt really not authentic to me, and sort of like what I was saying, with my parents, like I was lying still, which some trans people, that’s how they live their life, and they’re happy to do that they are happy to not be, you know, out, and that’s fine. But for me, it just, I really wanted people to know. And I ended up leaving news because journalism and newspapers were struggling, and there were just lots of layoffs. And I was like, Yeah, I don’t, I didn’t want to be in New Jersey anymore. And so I ended up in the instructional design, elearning and corporate training world. And that’s when I really started getting inspired to do something about the workplace and trans inclusive, right. So that being in corporate America, and kind of seeing how it functions, it was like, oh, I need to say something. Well, and so many things about your story. One, the concept of you being able to be male and female in the workplace, genuinely and understand the difference in how you were treated, is so

Maria Ross  12:24

validating as a woman right. And I, I’ve heard a TEDx speaker, I think her name is Paula stone, I’m not 100% Sure, I will fact check that and I will put the correct link in the show notes. But she was a corporate executive for a Christian leaning organization, like a large organization, as a man, and then transitioned and became a woman, not became a woman, she was a woman, I think, the whole time but and talked in her TEDx talk about all the differences that she experienced being at work as a man and as a and then when she became a woman. And she’s like, I felt like all of a sudden, people thought I was dumb. Because I was a woman, right? When I was a man, I knew just as much when I was presenting as a man. But somehow that was invalidated. So that is super interesting that you have that perspective, and what a muscle of empathy that you now have being on both sides of that fence. Like that is amazing. And number two, the fact that you came now to work where you are educating and advocating for the trans community. I think many cisgendered people have this image that every chat transgendered person wants to do that with their profession. And they don’t necessarily they want to be doctors, lawyers, photographers, journalists as well. So was that. Can you talk a little bit more about that decision to make that your work now, versus the work that you had loved before? Yeah, so I loved being a journalist to your point and loved it. I loved being in the newsroom. I felt like though, I had to leave that anyways. And so the space I started working in wasn’t one of passion. And I was already kind of feeling like, Man, I’m not doing something I love. And then there was a trans youth over and Ohio Lila acorn, she threw herself in front of a semi This is 2014 end of the year. And she she passed away. And she left a No, I think it was on Tumblr, it was a little over blogs. And it basically basically it was like I’m doing this thing because the world isn’t ready for us, please fix society. And when I saw that, I was like, yeah, like this, I need to speak up. You know, I was thinking I was like, 3231, I’m an adult. Like, I have privilege. I have an income. I’m white. Like I need to start saying stuff and educating people. And so I reached out to my former editor and I was like, Hey, can I start writing a column for the paper because my thought was the audience for a newspaper is older, primarily white, primarily.

Leo Caldwell  15:00

You know, wealthier, like higher middle class. And I was like this is an audience that needs to know this is happening and needs to know about trans people. And so I started writing a blog, or I’m sorry, a column. And it was it got a really great reception actually. And I got a lot of older like 7060 year old readers reaching out and saying, Hey, I’ve never I never knew a trans person, thank you for for your column. And it was really me talking about like, Oh, here’s some of my experience. But here’s what it’s like to be trans. Here’s what it’s like, this is what gender is doing to all of us. Because to your point, like getting the empathy and understanding of what gender does, both to women and men. Now, it’s really eye opening the gender binary can really screw us all up. And so kind of preaching that Gospel of like, hey, this isn’t just about trans people like we are in a system that’s really limiting to both both genders, both binary genders that exist that we talk about. Absolutely. Now, you have talked about the fact that Gen Z is the clearest, most gender diverse generation. Can you talk a little bit about that and what that means for the workplace? Yeah, so I actually teach in higher ed. So I get to interact with a lot of Gen Z years. And in fact, in 2021, Gallup put out a poll that said that one in six Gen Z is indicate being queer or transgender. And as another survey, over half of Gen Z, respondents believe that there there are more than two genders. So if you’re interested, Pew has a lot of data on Gen Z. And so it’s a great resource. But what I’m finding and what I’m seeing amongst my students, what I’m hearing when I talk to organizations, is that there’s this expectation now that folks in the workplace understand that it’s not a binary gender system anymore. It’s not just men and women. And what I think a lot of people don’t understand, too is Gen Z are they’re in their late 20s. Now, so they’re in the workplace like this is a group of people that are like 14 to like, mid 20s, five slap when people talk about millennials, I’m like, you know, millennials are in their 40s. Now, like they’re leading their rise and up. Yeah, like everybody thinks Millennials are still than their 20s. You know, like, Gen Z is the generation that’s entering, they’re the new talent, they’re the people you’re recruiting, you know, and right, your space is not clearly set up in a way that it supports more than two genders. I think this generation, not everyone in the generation, but a big portion has an expectation that it will be so I think, how it changes the landscape, I think one Gen Z is changing in the workplace at a lot of ways, and to have different expectations, how it relates to gender, I think that there’s an expectation that facilities like bathrooms or group settings are less gendered. Right, and so that there’s more gender neutral options. I think that there, there’s an expectation that if you want to transition on the workplace, like what, what are the policies and procedures in place, because that’s the other thing when I was in the workplace, there, I didn’t know what you did to transition. And, you know, I didn’t know how to like do that, like, and so like, they want some sort of structure around that. I think that there’s also this desire to see allyship in the workplace to see that your workplace actually does stand up and is vocal on issues. You know, like, there’s a lot of anti trans legislation right now, to see that your workplace actually will speak up on that, and actually indicate, hey, you know, what we see this is happening. We know, this is also your mental health is affected by this, this is what we’re doing. And a lot of times I think what it is it’s flexibility around work schedule. I think it’s flexibility on time off. But yeah, I think they’re really I think Gen Z is going to do actually I’m really excited, I think gonna do incredible thing, oh, they’re gonna they’re gonna be phenomenal. And I hate putting the burden of like, can you help us fix this on them? You know, I’m a Gen Xer. And I know, you know, even when our generation was called upon, you guys are gonna fix everything, right? And then we didn’t. So you know, I hate putting that pressure on them, especially given all the mental health challenges that that generation is currently facing. But I just find this really interesting. Now, I would love your perspective, because those in the country and in the world who are anti trans, seem to have this belief that just because you’re exposed to gender fluidity, it means you’re automatically going to choose that. Right? That the it’s the exposure that makes you trans, right? Can you rant on that for a little bit? And for me, I mean, can you tell me the reality of like, you either feel that way, or you don’t, right? I mean, it’s just it’s not a question of, I didn’t feel that way before. But now I got exposed to this. And I’m like, I’m gonna try that. It’s not a fad. So can you speak to that a little bit about maybe even your frustration and that way of thinking? Yeah, yeah. And I think you know, when I do say to folks in trainings, Gen Z is the most gender diverse and queer generation. They’re kind of like, well, yeah, probably, you know, like, it’s a trend. It’s a phase or whatever. I’m like, No, the reason there’s a couple of reasons why that people are there, more queer people, more trans people, it used to be illegal. Like, I mean, straight up, that’s, you know, like, you look at 40s and the 50s, and the 60s, and like all the raids on gay bars, you couldn’t dress as the opposite sex, even if you wanted to. And so there wasn’t, there was an opportunity to even express yourself. And so this generation hasn’t grown up at a time really where I don’t even think they have that knowledge, like my generation, your generation, we did at least have that knowledge. So there was fear. So I think there were a lot of generations and folks that haven’t come out because of one legal reasons back before us, but then the fear of what could happen. And then the what I was saying earlier, the possibility, right, if you don’t know something’s possible, if you don’t know that something exists, you can’t be it. And so back to like, representation, right? In the media. I didn’t see a trans man on TV in the 90s. I didn’t know they existed and even know it was possible. I knew I did not feel like a woman. But I didn’t know what that meant. I didn’t know I didn’t even frame that. And I think that’s the problem is that a lot of people, my generation, and generations before me, we didn’t even have the language to use. I mean, for me, now even I look back, and I’m like, if I would have had the word non binary, would I have done that instead? You know, like, because I have the word genderless actually tattooed on my spine. And so like that word, the non non binary didn’t even exist when I write. And so again, it’s not, we’re not creating new identities, and we’re not creating people are not coming with nowhere, and like trying something and I will say this, maybe young people are trying, maybe they are experimenting, so why that’s great. Like, what’s the harm? And that when we’re young, we all do, you know, figuring out who we are our identity. And now we allow the possibility of, hey, figuring your identity could also include your gender, you know, right. Right. But I also think that the, you know, that the thinking of, because part of the fear that they cite, is if you get exposed to the right terminology, and the end the role models, you will become that. And it doesn’t mean that because if that’s not genuinely who you are, and who you identify as you won’t, but the reason like you said the reason there seem to be so many more transgender folks in the world queer folks, is because they probably were always there. They just could never shine their light. Yeah. They were never allowed to be who they were. And I mean, I know so many people that have tons of friends that are queer, and so many gyms years that have are surrounded by queer kids that are not queer. And I, I don’t think that yeah, trans being trans being queer. It’s not something that transfers to the person. Either you have a part of yourself that has already felt that way. Or maybe it’s a part you didn’t you It took some time to discover to so there are people that do come out later in life that it didn’t know for sure. But again, being around other folks that are like that, it doesn’t transfer to you, but it just reinforces something clicks, right? Yeah. Yeah, I remember. So I interviewed on the show Cory Lovejoy, and I’ll put a link to Corys episode in the shownotes. But she talked about the fact that for the longest time, living her life as a man got married, had kids didn’t come out until recently, but always felt like she was mentally ill. That was the feeling she always had that something wasn’t right about her. Right. And not everybody grows up that way. So I think that that’s an important thing of, we’re talking about people who now have an outlet and a language and a name and a community for what they were already feeling. Just because we didn’t acknowledge it before, or or society didn’t acknowledge it before. It doesn’t mean they weren’t already feeling that. And that’s that’s always what I take away is that we can’t say there are more people because we talk about things more. And there’s more books, and there’s more characters on TV and in movies. That’s not the cord. That’s not the causation of it. Right. So So let’s talk a little bit about, you know, what is going on in our country in our world. You and I were talking about the fact that there’s a site called Trans legislation.com that has an anti trans bills tracker, and I was stunned to see in black and white. Some of the numbers that over 550 bills. Anti trans bills have been introduced this year. In 49 states 83 have passed 104 have failed and 369 are active. We hear about this all the time in the news we hear about everything from receiving health care, to book banning to legal recognition how is that we’re not here to dissect the legislation, the legislation or the, or the the hearts and minds of the people that are trying to get these things passed. What I would love to know, and I think what listeners would love to know is for you, as a transgender man, how does that impact your life on a daily basis? And how does it impact you in the workplace? Yeah, yeah. So just logistically, right. One of the things I’ve been doing lately is what states have what passed, because I’m traveling, I’m traveling for work, I’m traveling to speak at different different seats. And I’m like, Okay, where’s my plane land for a layover. So just the logistics and that mental energy of, I need to know what’s going on in each state that I’m going to visit and be aware. And that’s another again, like, as far as if you think about this as an employee, right? The resource, the mental resource that I’m using an energy I’m using, to now figure this out, is taking away from other things I could be doing right. And so the emotional labor, the mental labor, around just keeping track of what’s happening with over 500 bills, it’s very difficult to keep track of what’s happening in our country, around my identity, and who I am and where I can move freely in the world. So I think just logistically, it’s become really time consuming. And then emotionally, you know, I’ve been tracking why I feel as important to me that affects me, I think all of it affects me emotionally, though. And so that’s why I’ve kind of stepped back. I mean, I do a lot of education around this. So I do have to be aware. But I do have to step back from it. Because I it’s really discouraging to see adults in positions of power spending so much of their time and energy on a very small portion of the American population that really have just been existing, not doing much, you know, we’re not really like doing anything, you know, beyond transforming who we are. And then we’re getting attacked, you know, and it’s like, why? Well, and I saw this great unfold. It was one of those bittersweet, but ironic and funny memes that was out there that said, you know, I don’t see drag queens going into schools and killing kids by beating them over the head with copies of To Kill a Mockingbird. So what fight are we fighting? Now? Like, we should be fighting against guns and violence, and all of these things? Not this, right. This is not where our biggest problems are? Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, literally, I don’t, I’m in the Midwest, it was the air was not very breathable, from the fires in Canada, like things are going on, like, look at the pictures from things that are happening. Like, that’s, it’s very discouraging. And I think that even if you are an advocate of trans people, you should be pissed off that our legislators are spending the time and energy to take away existing rights that trans people already have, for what you know, instead of using their energy and time towards things that could really help right to solve homelessness, or crime or drug addiction, or all of these other environmental issues, right, all of these other things. So I love what you said, because I don’t want to gloss over that. The fact that you if you want to just look at like dollars and cents and bottom line productivity, the mental energy that you have to expend as an employee, on your safety on these issues on understanding that that is taking away from innovating for the company that is taking away not that you don’t deliver great work, but the point is, do you really want a portion of your workforce, dealing with something that’s going to distract them from the work I hear a lot you know, in the whole debate of return to office and return to work that some leaders are an absurdly concerned with the fact that if you’re you are working from home and I can’t see you, you might be spending your time distracted by playing Minecraft or watching TV, they’re worried about that. But they’re not worried about you being distracted by the fact that your person might be in danger your life might be in danger if you go somewhere you might get attacked, there might be a law against your lifestyle in a place where your company send you on business like that, to me is just crazy. Ya know, as in you know, I used to work as a project manager too. I did a lot of I’ve done a lot of things and so in that mindset, you know, we had this 85% capacity billable, you know, a number so all the employees had a bill 85% of their time. So that’s what I’m thinking like, okay, as an employee that now has like, I couldn’t build 85 Because I would have to do too much research on Okay, now this client is in this place and so just the tie that you’re saying just logistically and the time spent at work, figure stuff out, but then add on the emotional part like it’s so big past in my state like if something like in Florida like now in Florida, I can’t go to the men’s right now. At restroom, I could be asked to leave the men’s restroom looking very masculine. And if I don’t leave, I can be arrested. If that happened in Indiana, if I saw that news, my work that I would be done for the day, you know, I would be done because I would be devastated. And I wouldn’t know. I’m like, Okay, how do I go to a restaurant and you know, go to the restroom. And so I would be the fear to, you know, takes away from your workday as well. Yeah. So it’s definitely something I think leaders should be worried about and talk about, and I think leaders should be proactive. What can we do and understand that the mental health of trans and gender nonconforming employees not doing it’s not great this year? I mean, right. Yeah. Right. What are you in your work as you go into companies and talk and do some trainings? What are some of the things you have seen companies doing to support the transgender community? Can you give us some examples? Yeah, I mean, one of the things I love is what I was saying earlier, they have very clear policies around transitioning. So if you’re at the workplace, this is what you would do if you want to transition. And that’s so important, because trans people have a really high rate of poverty and unemployment. And if there’s the National Center for change, transgender equality has a lot of great surveys around this. But basically, whenever you have to transition, that becomes that becomes a threat to your job, really, your identity is changing, your name is changing. So how do you transition? Like, if you have clients? How does that go? Through gracefully, you know, and so just having the company take that burden off of the employee is amazing to say, Okay, this is what we do. This is how we make it seamless. It’s really, really awesome. The other thing is just being really vocal about their support of their trans employees, I actually had an employer that when Trump put out the trans military ban, I think it was 2017 basically saying that trans people can’t serve in the military anymore. They said, I’m not in the military, but they sent me a card, because they knew that that news just sucks. So they sent me a letter, little card. And they would do that anytime something happened. And that just is that emotional connection that like, like, we’re talking about empathy, that empathetic connection that I was like, wow, that meant a lot to me. And I think that showing up in that way for employees is really awesome. And covering trans related health care, right, so making sure your insurance covers hormones cover surgeries, um, that’s a really, really big one, it takes a lot of burden off the employee. Well, and I love that those go beyond like, we put out a post on social media, you know, during pride month, that says, hey, we support the transgender community. These are the things I always talk about in terms of companies and leaders walking their talk, when it comes to empathy, when it comes to emotional intelligence when it comes to actual support. How are you operationalizing that, I want to just real quickly on your point about, like guidelines for transition or a process for transition. What can a leader do? who’s listening to this and says, I would love to do that in my workplace. And right now, we I, in my network? Don’t know anyone who’s trans and there’s not that I know of anyone in our company who’s trans. Who can they get input from on that? Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of great freelancers, consultants that do this work, I’ve done this work, because I haven’t implemented a transition policy. But I actually did a lot of work previously as a trainer and worked a lot of corporations around like HR policies or sales training. So like I had that previous experience in that lift trans experience. So you’re looking for somebody to come in and consult, right, especially if that’s trends, for sure. That’s number one, and has some sort of experience around creating policies and procedures within a company. And so I LinkedIn is awesome, you know, it’s a great place to find these folks. Like I said, I do the work. I know other consultants that do the work, and we’re out there. And it’s really important to get, like I said, you have to get trans people in the room to have these conversations. Because if you don’t, you’re not going to create policies, you’re not going to create advocacy work, that really means anything if you don’t have those voices in the room.

Maria Ross  34:13

I love that. And also, you know, like you said, you have to have that community that you are trying to support be part of the solution. It’s not about doing things, quote unquote, for people, it’s about doing things with people, and ensuring that again, there’s things we as potentially cisgender or even gay, or, you know, gay people that might not understand the transgender community, just because someone’s gay doesn’t mean they understand what it’s like to be transgender. Right. So I think keeping that in mind that with even with all these different identities, if we’re really trying to support this in the workplace, we want to make sure we’re making folks that are part of that population, part of the process or the policy that we build. Now, that’s great for policy building, but Where can they? What are some strategies they can employ to change mindsets? Because what if there is discomfort and fear in their in their workplace? Let’s say you’ve got a CEO who’s doing this from the top? Who is like, yes, I want to create a workplace, I want to be able to attract Gen Z talent, and I want to create a workplace that’s inclusive and supportive of the transgender community. What if they’re dealing with a lot of

Leo Caldwell  35:30

issues in their ranks in terms of you know, because you can hire people, and you can create policies, but how do you really make the transgender individuals feel included? Ya know, that, like, what are some strategies there? Yeah, I think that there’s a lot of opportunity. One, I think sometimes there’s, there’s like buckets of people, right? There’s folks that are just totally don’t know anything about the community, don’t have any feelings about the community, but just very uneducated, right? And then there’s people that are educated advocates. Awesome. And then there’s really just people that, I don’t know, they just, they don’t they’re not aligned with the truth, they are very anti trans. Right? And I think for whatever reason, right, right. Yeah. And those people to me become an HR issue more than anything and, and more of a like one on one coaching situation, and I don’t think you reach them through strategy or training, or I think that is, like having a racist person in the workplace, right? And how would you deal with that, and right now we’re at a spot of gender transformation, I think that you’re either going to be a proactive leader, or you’re going to be reactive, and you’re going to be reactive to like, in the next, if you haven’t done something in the next few, like two or three years, it’s now reactive. So to be proactive right now is to look at your people that are, you know, you have your group that’s uneducated, and I honestly would suggest some simple training, like I would treat this, like I would one of my previous clients in corporate training of, let’s just give everybody a baseline knowledge of what this even means. And some just basic, basic understanding. And then what it means in our organization, what does that look like? And how do we value this and incorporate it into values? And, you know, a lot of people just roll this under, obviously, their dei values. And it is it’s, you’re creating an inclusive workplace. And so just that messaging, but being really specific about it, and calling out trans people, and not just assuming, because you say gender identity, sexual orientation, you’re like checking that box, right? I think that’s really important in the value messaging that you’re sharing. Yeah, because I’ve worked with people I’ve worked with in a company that had all these inclusive values, but the reality is, they never really wanted to talk about queerness or LGBTQ plus. And so I brought that out. And I called it out in a dei meeting. And I was told that they didn’t want to make people uncomfortable. And so that made me very uncomfortable. Right, like, okay, then I don’t want to work here. Why? Because you’re saying I don’t exist. Yeah, yeah. And so I worked with them for a few months and tried to change that. But it just kept that there was a message back to me and I left. And when I left, I got hired by another place. They’re like, you’re a unicorn. And I’m like, Yeah, I know. I’m great. Like, I’m awesome. I know a lot of things. Like, you know, but they the other place just was unwilling to have those specific words come out of their mouth, which was very, very obvious, like a red flag to me that you won’t say LGBTQ plus, you won’t stay trans. But you’ll talk about being inclusive, that’s not inclusive to not say those words. No, absolutely not. Where are some good resources for? Let’s say, there’s individuals. And, you know, I count myself in this in this group of continuing to try to educate ourselves on the different terminology on different issues important to the trans community. Are there any websites or publications that you recommend people can go to educate themselves? Yeah. So one book that I love is by Judith Butler called breaking the bowl, and maybe bowls, but just she does a great job of just breaking gender down in general. So it’s not even just really specific about transits. But it does talk about that, just and it’s, I mean, it’s older, it’s like 1520 years older, but it’s really, really good. And then as far as the web, you know, there’s Aaron Reed is a trans journalist, and she’s doing really comprehensive coverage of what’s happening in our nation. And her blog is Erin in the morning. She has a spreadsheet called Li Li alerts. And I think it’s linked from her website, and it literally breaks every legislation down by state. So it’s amazing. As far as workplace stuff, I mean, honestly, Harvard Business Review has been doing a lot of stuff, HR sees all these really great see what’s going on, they just actually put out a message two days ago that they’ve declared a state of emergency for LGBTQ plus folks in America, and they produced a guidebook about what that means and how to navigate and if you are traveling, and so it’s really good. Yeah. What was that again? HRC Oh, yeah, human rights, human rights campaign, and they put out a guide Book and National Center for Transgender Equality. They do the big survey that they did a survey in 2015, the largest survey of trans people, they’re issuing their 2023, or their 2022 Survey, which is their updated survey here in 2023. And it’s got so much data about workplace. So it’s really good to see how we’re doing in the workplace. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And we’ll put those links in the show notes as well. So my last question is sort of a bigger one. But what do you wish most people knew about being transgender? What is sort of either the biggest myth or the biggest misconception? I think one thing that people in the workplace I will say, I think we’re kind of like superheroes. Like, because we actually won we’ve had we have a very unique perspective. And I don’t know a single trans person, is it extremely talented, emotionally intelligent, like we’ve had to do so much inner work, that it’s given us a really strong awareness of who we are, but also how we interact with other people. And I know it can’t speak for every trans person, but most trans people I’ve met, I think, that are just incredible people as far as their work ethic, but also just their emotional intelligence. And I think in general, we’re most of us are really boring. Like, we’re just like everybody else. Like, I just think that there’s this sensationalized Yes, version of who we are. I mean, we, I mean, all like most, most of my trans friends have kids, they have a mortgage. You know, they have a 401k they’re paying taxes do like getting yeah, we’re just doing we’re just living, we’ve just live in. Like, this is the thing I always get upset about when people are homophobic. They just assume gay people are having sex all the time. Like every moment of the day, right. That’s what they’re doing. And I’m like, no, they’re going to work. They’re cleaning the bathroom. They’re making dinner like they’re living their lives. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Getting into gardening, mowing, you know, like, I’m like, it’s very, it’s just not. I think that there, especially now with all this legislation. There is this messaging that we’re out one recruiting people, which Ross right, and we’re just and you’re just leading depraved lives? Yeah. All over the place. Yeah. Yeah. Not true. Not true. Okay. But I do like how you describe that of like, many of us are kind of boring. Yeah.

Maria Ross  42:27

Well, Leo, this has been so wonderful to connect with you. And you’ve shared so much great insight and resources, I will link to everything you’ve shared in the show notes. You’ll and you will have your contact information and your website in the show notes as well. But for folks listening on the go, where’s the best place they can find out more about you or get in touch with you? Yeah, I’m on LinkedIn. If you search Leo Caldwell, I think I come up pretty quickly. So find me there and connect. They’re awesome. And your posts are great on LinkedIn. So I second the following you on LinkedIn. Thank you again for your time, and I love that we’ve connected. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a colleague or a friend. Until next time, please remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources booked me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Everyone talks about disruption. Disrupting the status quo, the industry, the way we do things with their cool new product or service. But how about we disrupt leadership? How about we learn to embrace failure, build connection, and establish trust as the keys to success? My guest today, author, mentor, and CEO Colin Hunter shares why leaders need to be more wrong in order to be more successful.

Today we talk about why leadership needs to be disrupted, a 3-pronged model for how leaders can increase their impact, how to create more resilience and avoid burnout, and why we need to be more wrong and embrace experimentation and play so we can learn faster – leaving ego at the door in order to find success.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Self-care and mindfulness are so important. And without it, you do burn out as a leader, especially if you are a good leader and are trying to give of yourself to your team, but it does your team no good if you end up going up in flames.Just like how you recharge your phone every night, you need to do something that recharges you, as a leader, so that you can ground yourself, allowing you to show up better for yourself, your team, and your organization. Utilize the power and energy of everyone on your team. As you lead with empathy and active listening and give them a playground you will see an amazing difference in your team.

“As children, we have this self-clearing mind –  we learn, experiment, play, fall over, fall out with friends, and then we self-clear and we go. But as we grow older, we freeze. If you aren’t doing your work, aren’t practicing disrupting, learning, experimenting every day, then you’ve frozen your mind.”

—  Colin Hunter

Episode References:

The Empathy Edge podcast, Rebecca Friese: How to Build a Good CultureThe Empathy Edge podcast, Rhonda Manns: Design Thinking in Healthcare and BeyondAtomic Habits by James ClearIDEOSir Ken Robinson, TED Talk, Do Schools Kill Creativity?Antifragile: Things That Gain From Disorder by Nassim Nicholas TalibCitizens: Why the Key to Fixing Everything is All of Us by Jon AlexanderThe Trusted Advisor by David MaisterAbout Colin Hunter, CEO of Potential Squared and Author, Be More Wrong

Colin Hunter is an author, mentor, coach, and founder of Potential Squared which specializes in creating playgrounds to disrupt the way people are led.  He lives with his family, near London, but originally from Scotland, and still retains his love of the Scottish mountains and the outdoors.  Colin and his team work with their clients to provide leaders and their teams the chance to, as he describes, “Sail their ship out of the harbour and test themselves in rougher seas”.  He is a practitioner and his work and his book are based on personal experience and purposeful practice with his clients.”

Connect with Colin Hunter:

PotentialSquared: https://www.potential2.com

Book: Be More Wrong  https://www.potential2.com/be-more-wrong/

Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/Potential_2

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinhunter/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/potentialsquared2/

Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/potential_2/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thecolinhunter/

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

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Facebook: Red Slice

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work, to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Everyone talks about disruption, disrupting the status quo, the industry the way we do things with your cool new product or service. But how about we disrupt leadership? How about we learn to embrace failure, build connection and establish trust as the keys to success. My guest today, author, mentor and CEO Colin Hunter, shares why leaders need to be more wrong in order to be more successful. And yes, the role empathy plays in that Colin is an author, mentor, coach and founder of potential squared that specializes in creating playgrounds to disrupt the way people are LED. He’s the author of a great leadership book called be more wrong. Colin and his team work with clients to provide leaders and their teams the chance to, as he describes, sail their ship out of the harbor, and test themselves in rougher seas. He’s a practitioner and his work in his book are based on personal experience and purposeful practice with his clients. Today, we talk about why leadership needs to be disrupted. The three pronged model for how leaders can increase their impact, how to create more resilience and avoid burnout as a leader, and why we need to be more wrong, and embrace experimentation and play. So we can learn faster, leaving ego at the door, in order to find success. This one has so many gems, and so many references in the show notes. Take a listen. Colin Hunter, welcome to the show.

Colin Hunter  03:13

You I love it. I love the connection on the Scotsman piece that we were just talking about off air. So it’s lovely to be here. Thank you. That’s wonderful. For those listeners who don’t know, my husband is from Scotland. So anytime I have a chance to meet and connect with people from Scotland, I’m always grateful. So thank you for coming on the show to talk about disrupting leadership and talking to us about why leaders need to learn how to be more wrong, which I think is a wonderful concept, steeped in humility, which is also such a key ingredient for empathy. So first, before we get into the juicy stuff, just briefly, tell us your story. What led you to this work by accident, but I’ve learned more over time that it wasn’t an accident. So I had a breakdown when I was 30 and ended up in a doctor surgery who sat close the doors cancel all the rest of the appointments. And he said you know, Colin, you’re living your life in a way that is not energy efficient. So you need to do something about it. And I went Okay, so that’s great. So I got to silver. I don’t even know if he’s still alive now. But so he gave me a kick up the proverbial I don’t know what you call it in the US. But actually, he gave me something. But yeah, we can say that. So I started then on a journey of how do I manage my own energy and my own resilience in there. So I started that. And then I lucked out and I got a job in training and development and coaching. So I went and I did an MBA and it was myself and there’s a learning in here throughout this. I was being myself on the NBA for probably the first time for about 12 to 14 years. And somebody on the NBA recognize that saw the behaviors and said to somebody else you should be doing training and development you should talk to Colin about this. So I went for an assessment center So I got the job. And since then I’ve been working as a coach, leadership consultant. But I call myself a practice leader. So that’s fundamentally what I do. So everything that I teach, or coach on, I have to tell myself, I’ve done it already. So I’m working on it in the business, how we operate. And therefore I hate the term thought leader in some ways. So I don’t really want to be there. But there’s also an impostor syndrome in me that says, I would never be a thought leader. So I can be a practice leader. That’s where I am now working with many international clients multinationals around the globe, but based out of London International Business, so love it, love it. And you know, as we mentioned, the title of your book is be more wrong. And you have a philosophy of wanting to disrupt the way people are LED. What do you mean by that? So I think there’s a couple of things that led me to that. So I studied on under somebody who was teaching me design thinking, so ideal, I’m working in there and a great man, Andrew Webster introduced me to it. And I started to realize that if we’re going to create products, inclusive products that are going to talk to all the different types of people that we meet, then we need to start letting our ego and expertise, go out the window. And therefore when we’re running Design Thinking sessions, we always say, okay, ego and expertise, left the door come in here, let’s just observe human nature, let’s observe what’s going on, put the human centered design, and work on that. And it came to me, that’s leadership. So when we’re in there, if we can, every day focused the human in front of us, whether it’s the clients, the end user products, or it is our team, then we need to be starting to thinking that way. But mostly it is thinking on authority power gradients. And don’t take that inclusive and empathy led to your a word that’s, that’s relevant to your podcasts, empathy led way of doing that. But I think that’s why I started to want to disrupt leadership. And then more recently, I’ve got into some work by John Alexander and citizens don’t even read the book, brilliant book. And he talks about how in the past, we’ve been a subject to people, whether it’s kings, queens, lords, ladies, or whoever it is, we then moved into this era of the consumer story where we were consumer taught to buy more. And his book is all about citizens. So if we think about it to be a citizen, is we get the right to vote, but then it’s about community after that. So that work led me to think so how do we as leaders build communities? How do we build communities that benefit each other, which is leading us to go into being a B Corp this year, and looking at being a better organization in that context? So the disruption was started by saying, Come on, let’s get design thinking into the way we operate. Yeah. But secondly, it’s led more to almost the Social Innovation about how we organize businesses and leaders. Yeah, I think that’s the movement around applying the principles of design thinking to so many other areas other than product design, I had someone on the podcast, who is a former nurse that’s now teaching and bringing design thinking to find healthcare solutions. And another guest and I’ll put a link it was it was Rhonda, I will put a link to her episode and another guest of mine, Becky freeze, who runs a consultancy called Flynn consulting. And they basically disrupt workplace culture. So they’re creating a culture of innovation by not innovating products, but helping companies innovate the way companies work, the way companies themselves are run. And so I love the way your approach is about disrupting and innovating the way leadership is done, regardless of industry, regardless of offering, regardless of whether it’s a product or service or social enterprise or nonprofit, because we’re actually getting into the systemic change that is going to be responsible for creating more innovative products and services and offerings in the future. So I love that. Talk to us about how a leader increases their impact. You have talked about the purposeful practice of conversations rooted in confidence, conviction and connection. Tell us about that. So I part of this worked under Jacqueline Farrington and great leadership consultant that focused on communication. And she runs a business called Farrington partners, but she and I started working a long while ago on this, and then I iterated it up something in here but I realized that we teach a lot of leaders about confidence. So physically vocally, how do you talk with more confidence and, and we all know that if somebody talks with confidence, in theory, we’re likely to follow them, you know, to go in that direction. However, once you take the confidence piece, then there’s a conviction which is the values the purpose the identity, and I know previous episode, brilliant episode you had on here with purpose and how you live and breathe it. So what’s the red thread? There’s a leader that you have in here that goes through your work identity, purpose, and unmold For purposes, nesting purposes as you go through business, but there was a piece missing for me in all of that. So, you know, teach confidence, teach conviction grade, but the connection piece, and I have a New Zealand colleague who just give me this is a brilliant analogy. He said, For me connection is the ability to dance with the music others bring to you. Yeah. And I love that so much. Can you say that again, please? Yeah, the ability to dance with the music others bring to you? Oh, so good. So good. It caused me to pause for at least an hour on the day I received on LinkedIn. And that piece started to get me thinking that, you know, whether it’s inclusion, diversity, design, thinking, leadership, isn’t our leaders role, the ability to create the conditions for others people to be successful, and therefore understand the music. And that means that you got to understand everybody’s music coming in here. So I started to say, what’s the package in that? So I started to take a different way, which is, if you’re only delivering with confidence, and no conviction, and no connection, it’s arrogance. And we see a lot of arrogant leaders. If we are delivering with conviction, but no connection and confidence, then it’s a cause without a rebel, is the way I would say it. And then if you’ve got connection without confidence, and conviction, we’ve got some lovely people who aren’t getting anything done in the world. So this blend of conversations with the three of those is important. But how often do we give people a chance to practice that? Right, right. And I think that’s why empathy is such an important ingredient to achieving radical success. It’s that that ability to, you know, connect people, but also bring other people along, because we have all seen examples of leaders who are really, really smart, but nobody wants to follow them. Or, like you said, leaders who are really, really committed to a mission or a purpose, but they have no idea how to communicate that to their team, and help the team understand the role they play in that purpose or that mission. So I love this idea of this triangle of confidence, conviction and connection. I want to switch gears and talk a little bit about resilience and leadership. Because, you know, given all these different models, models I’ve discussed on this podcast with many guests, there’s a lot we’re trying to get our leaders to do. We’re constantly telling them, No, you need to do this with your leadership, you need to do that you need to have conviction, you need to have purpose, you need to be able to connect people, you need to have empathy. And it’s very overwhelming, because they’re like, and when do I actually find the time to get my work done, right? So talk to us about creating resilience in your leadership, and associated with that, avoiding burnout, from trying to be all these things to all these people while you’re trying to get work done and produce. So I’ve got two elements to that thoughts. And the first one I’ll start on, which is proper selfishness. So somebody introduced the concept of proper selfishness to me, and it was a military commander on a boats hits an earthquake city, all his team were going in and tending to the sick and the dying and the dead. And they used to come back to the boat, long faces sad. And it was after a while the chaplain said to these teams said, so what’s the mountain? And they said, Well, we feel guilty, we’ve got all this food on the table, you know, surely we should be spreading this food and giving some of it to the sick and the you know, the dying out there and working. And he just gave them a simple question back said who’s going to look after them when you’re sick and ill. And this concept of the air you know, oxygen mask and a plane put your own on before you put those of your child. Or if you’ve got two children, your favorite children was one of the flight attendants once said to me. But the thing about leadership is, you know, to have the energy and resilience to be a leader means you need to take care of yourself and be properly selfish. So that’s the first element and falling out of this desire to be strong, but not take care of yourself in the background. Yeah, I mean, self care and mindfulness is so important. And without it, you do burn out as a leader, especially if you are a good leader and giving, you know trying to give of yourself to your team, but it does your team no good if you end up going up in flames. And that’s what I learned from my breakdown. But subsequently, I’ve learned that if I don’t do my reps, and don’t eat my own dog food or drink my own champagne as sometimes describe it, I like the champagne better than the eat your own dog food. I’m gonna steal that. So, so for me, it’s about so I started looking at this with anti fragile, the concept of anti fragile by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. And he said, You can’t predict the future. So what the ceases did in the past, as a season is used to ingest little bits of poison on a regular basis, so that if they ever came under attack by a poisoner, then they would have all these poisons in the system, which made them resistance and that’s the concept of anti fragile. We can’t face it. We can’t put dekes but at least we could be anti fragile to what’s coming at us in the future. Okay, that totally reminds me of the scene in The Princess Bride, right? Yes.

Maria Ross  15:08

I built up an immunity to whatever it was the drug that was supposed to kill him. Yeah.

Colin Hunter  15:15

So if you tell you that then we work in four systems. And this is the work I’m doing but four systems around how you build up your resilience. But the key thing for me is about experimentation is the James clear work about atomic habits, we don’t rise to the level or objectives, we fall to the level of our systems. So what we’ve got to do is we’ve got to start stress plus rest equals growth, we’ve got to sail our ship out the harbor is another analogy I use to test and stretch ourselves so that when we need that energy when we need that resilience, is there. And what do you mean by testing, testing different ways that re energize us or fuel us up? Yeah, so I look at it this way, there’s a spiritual need. So I’m not talking solely religion, I’m talking about spiritual in terms of you know, whether it’s looking about that I do a lot of work on the stoics. So I do a meditation every day on the stoics. And again, it’s this principle that we look and there’s a higher purpose, so I can’t control anything apart from myself. But unless I do my work on it, meditate on it, then, then it’s difficult for me to do. So there’s a piece about purposeful practice of these meditation apps and meditation spiritual is one of them. Then there’s the thing about sleep. Now, listening to Tim Ferriss, and Matthew Walker, one of his podcast episodes, and Matthew Walker is an expert in sleep. But if you want four hours of geeking, out on sleep, I’m a big fan of practicing different sleeping techniques. So including taping your mouth to do nose breathing, I don’t know if you ever heard of this, but it improves the quality of your sleep massively. So I will go to bed at nine, wake up, five 530. And it’s not anything match you in there. It’s more about that I’ve worked out my rhythms and I measure it with what the listeners won’t be able to see but as an earring. But then I got to this concept that nose breathing is a bit of effective sleep. So I’ve improved my efficiency and sleep 75 to 95%. So you’re experimenting with different modalities. And this is what I talked about when the first step of being an empathetic leader is practicing what I call practicing mindfulness. But it’s really also self care. And I’m not talking about self care, like massage. And mani pedi, I’m talking about those things that recharge you just like you recharge your phone every night so that it works the way it should. And it could be it’s different for everyone. It’s not necessarily. I’ve said this before seven days at an ashram in India, it could be going for a walk every morning, before you start your day could be sitting with your breakfast and without a screen in front of you. Like you said, it could be looking at your sleep habits, doing meditation, maybe it is doing yoga, maybe it’s prayer, whatever, walking the dog, all of these things can get us grounded, to take a moment and take a beat so that we can connect with ourselves because we’re so busy spinning out there as busy leaders, that we don’t take a moment to be still and say what’s going on inside for me today? How am I showing up? I love that. And actually somebody said this something to me the other day, they said, the real test of somebody who is resilient, and has purposeful habits built into their life is when they go on vacation. At least 80% of those habits are the same on vacation when they’re working. Let’s test but yeah, that’s it’s so true. Yeah. Right. Because when you’re going on vacation, presumably you’re going because you want to take care of yourself. So are you practicing the same things to take care of yourself that you practice in your quote unquote, real life? Right? Oh, I love that. I want to talk about you mentioned it earlier this year. And also, it’s the topic of the book about being more wrong, and why that helps us learn faster. So talk to us about that. And how can leaders who still cling to the model that if I’m going to be a good leader, I have to know everything and everything I do has to succeed on the first try. How can they break themselves of that narrative? So I think it’s very difficult because we are brought up in an education system that says, you know, get things rights, get your grades, do it right. There’s a way of doing that. And I always love Sir Ken Robinson’s TED Talk, where he tells a story of the young girl at the back of the class, and she’s drawing something and the teacher says, So what are you doing? And she says, I’m drawing a picture of God. And the teacher says nobody knows what God looks like. And she says, well give me a few minutes and I’ll be able to show you what keyboard it is. So as children we have this self clearing mind. And therefore we we learn, we experiment we play we fall over we fall out with are friends. And then we self clear and we go. But as we grow older, and the analogy friend gave me was, we have this Colorado river of a mind that that is cutting through rock when we’re kids. But as we grow older, we freeze. So eventually, you know, when you’re 57, or 40, if you aren’t doing your work, and you aren’t practicing every day about disrupting, and learning, and experimenting, then you frozen mine, you got this little trickle of conscious mind. So there’s a piece in there for me about learning fast, which is, how do you get your mind to be a self clearing system? How do you clear your mind and work in that space? So that’s one of the core principles around learning fast and working in that space. And then I think there’s something else in here, which is, if you think competitive, and we think about what we’re facing as leaders in the world, we’re facing challenges every day, and everybody else is competing each other. And therefore, people are trying to disrupt you all the time. So why wouldn’t you do it yourself, start to work it into life. So So for me, I’m a big believer in, learn fast, fail early fail often be the hardest worker in the gym, push yourself and stretch yourself. And if you’re not doing that, then for me, you’re not agitating for the future, which is the definition? Well, the ironic thing about this is we have so many leaders we’ve never heard of who are convinced that they have to come to the table, at at least pretend they have all the right answers, that their way is the right way that they’re gonna give you 100% guarantee that what they’re going to try is going to work. And yet, when you look at all the famous leaders that people cite, quotations from and read books about and follow as sports legends, their whole career is about trying and failing. There’s not one successful billionaire who doesn’t have a trail of bankrupt businesses in their wake. And so I find it interesting that as humans, we can’t reconcile that, you know, if going bankrupt a few times worked for Richard Branson. Why do I think in my middle manager role, I have all the answers. Now there is the systemic issue of we do work within systems. And unfortunately, within organizational cultures that don’t allow us to fail, we get fired, we get, you know, demoted. And so where do you see hope around disrupting the actual system that those leaders are operating in? You make a great point, because one of the things we’re reading our purpose at the moment, and the the purpose we’re working with as a draft at the moment is building lives, leaders, organizations and communities you don’t need to escape from Oh, so I’m sad for me. That, for me is fundamental. So if you go back to leaders who cause other people not to be able to fail or not to learn and fuel anxiety, fuel, self worth issues, fuel the imposter that I hold inside, do more sick days and less productivity hours, like all the things they don’t want, right? Well, there’s that study recently about trust, DDI have just come out with a publishing about trust in organizations and, and one of the key things in there and around trust is allowing people the ability to be vulnerable, and vulnerability and learning and people who aren’t vulnerable longer learns that Brene, brown Man in the Arena, get in there, work it do it. So I do think that leaders just don’t work out the business case for me around why they should engage in failure and learning. And when you see organizations who embrace this, now Koch is doing a lot of friends doing a lot of work in there around design thinking, you start to see some of the iterations and the work from the receptionist that changes the strategy, document for the business, fundamentally shifts the way they operate, you release all this potential. And as a leader, you suddenly go, Oh, hold on a second, this leadership thing is pretty easy. Because all I’m doing is just utilizing everybody’s power and energy. And also, you know, I’m getting points for being empathetic because I’m understanding them. So even for those who were slightly on the on the spectrum and don’t work out what it is that they’re doing, they’re seeing a different pattern in front of them. So for me, the only way you get people to do that is purposeful practice, and giving them a, a playground to have a go at that. And then seeing the difference they see in front of them. So that’s a key part. I love that because I did a prior episode a year or so ago with two women who run a consultancy that talk about the importance of play at work, and why and how play leads to innovation and why we lose it after we grow up. You know what I mean? Or while we grow up, so I’ll put a link to that one in the show notes as well. So what would you say to leaders listening who are like I get it, I’m on board I want to disrupt but I am trapped in this system of right now. That if my team misses our KPIs,

Maria Ross  25:00

I have to let someone go, someone has to get fired, I might get fired. Where could they start? Disrupting the system within their own culture organization.

Colin Hunter  25:12

So Design Thinking teaches you about small, low risk, low cost experiments. Yeah. And I think that’s the key mantra in my mind. So incremental gains in how you you operate are key things. What I don’t propose is that people go out and take massive risks, but small changes that can even impact the team. So we started something which is a pulse every day 950 In the morning, where everybody gets together, shares what they did yesterday, what they did today, what they’re doing tomorrow. But we’re still playing with the right communication vehicles to get the team to engage. So we played with that. We’ve played with a couple of things. So we’re now when we’re doing our two day, get together as a team just before Christmas, there’s no projection of content numbers. It’s all about experiential learning as a team, now we find within two days, we had more connection, that was an experiment, more connection in the team than we’ve ever had, just by two days. So I think it’s just doing small things like that, that get people to realize that they can operate in a different way as leaders. And I think the other thing for me is, if you think and they talk to most of their clients, most of their clients want them to be innovative. So again, if they think about that, and even for people who work in internal audit, for financial services, you can still innovate, you can still be more wrong, disrupt the way experiment in there. And you can change the way that you have assurance for the business, just by small changes in how you communicate, how you operate. So don’t think about the big changes, think about the small, incremental behavioral changes that you could make, as a leader, test them out, get new habits, the way I see it is, forget behaviors. Think about the new habits or practices that you can adopt and measure whether they make a difference to the engagement of your team, the ideas of your team, and you’ll probably find that it will change massively over time. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it’s so important to treat your team like a micro culture, and just try different things that will help your team be successful, even if that’s not the corporate culture. Because then what happens is, as you succeed, people start getting curious about what’s going on with your team. Like what’s in the water over there? Yeah, they do that I always remember playing this with one of my clients first client, Maureen Finn, whoever did this with and we said, right, I’m gonna fail with you. So that’s our contract, we’re gonna fail, and we’re gonna regularly fail. So we’re gonna have some difficult conversations, but we are setting out to disrupt and fail. Now, four years later, we had three awards for the work, we were doing her profile have gone up our profile going up, but we learned to fail together and fail early. So for me, it’s sometimes that we worry about our stakeholders and worry about our clients, why wouldn’t we buy them into making a world better outside, and then getting them to play with us on this failure game, which actually drives massive differences painful sometimes, but life is painful. So why not? You know, exponentially grow through innovation and experimentation? Right? Exactly. Well, you know, it’s that whole analogy of forging by fire. Right? You don’t end up creating something, unless it’s tested.

Maria Ross  28:25

If you want to learn, go play with somebody who’s better than you. Yeah. If you want to grow, you don’t go you don’t learn by going and doing what you’ve always done. It’s always about stretching and testing. Yeah, well, and I find it super interesting. I’ve mentioned this to other people. Before that, I find it laughable that there’s so many leaders who have all the books on their shelves of the people who talk about doing things, just doing things differently, and, you know, failing fast, and all that kind of stuff. They’ve got all those books on their bookshelves, and yet they’re still leading the way they’re leading.

Colin Hunter  28:58

And it’s like, but I know you read it, like, I know, what did you read? Let me just did you watch the TED talk, or, you know, these are people you follow and idolize. And yet, somehow, when you go into your day to day, you don’t apply any of that. And I just find that really, really interesting. For me, it’s always good to have a feedback loop. So I think one of the other things that we do with clients and within our team is get a feedback loop, a learning loop that we have. So we’re always learning. So I mean, classically, there was somebody recommended a book trust and inspired by Stephen, Mr. Covey, brilliant book, really, really good book, their favorite book, but actually, when you saw what they were like, in real life, everything was the opposite. It was the dysfunction of what was in the book and actually just having that feedback loop that you can give that person and you know, me, I’m far from perfect in what I do, and therefore, eating my own dog food or drinking my own champagne, whatever it is. For me, it’s about getting the feedback and one of my team in this off site, we were doing a flip chart.

30:00

I write things that you appreciate. And somebody had the courage to write two words in my flip chart. One was, they’re supposed to be positive, but this one was frustrating. And the other one was confusing. Now, they had the courage to do that. And therefore, for me, that’s a feedback loop. So since then I’ve been noodling, working, how I can remove frustrating, and also confusing out of my vocabulary, or the vocabulary other people would use about me. So that’s where you need to be that humble and humility piece to go. Okay. How do I how to make this better? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, as we wrap up, I want to just take a tangent on this, because you mentioned it, this idea of creating trust, especially if you’re in an environment right now with your team, where they don’t trust you, because then they’re more, I guess, stubborn is the word to when you have to make tough decisions. And it’s not necessarily because of the decision itself. It’s because they don’t trust you enough as a leader that you’re doing right by them. How do you help leaders start to establish trust, where maybe they didn’t build the trust before. And now they’re in a position where they have to start building it, and they can’t just go, you know, I want you to start trusting me, one or two things they can actually do to start working, even if it’s for the long haul, on creating trust within their team.

Colin Hunter  31:25

So I think one of them is about a personal behavior. So I have a mantra in my head, that’s when I disagree with somebody in the team about an idea. I work out my head out of 10, how important is this, and as if it is seven or 10, or more important, then I’ll have an opinion, if it is less than seven out of 10. And it’s an idea that I don’t particularly agree with, but I want them to have go, one of the mantras I hold my head is I want them to own their role not rented. And if I am a leader who is trying to control all the time, make those decisions, then yeah, I’m knowledgeable, all knowing. But actually, if I want them to own that role, then let them have that go and get on with us. And it’s also once they’ve had that trust to have a goat it it’s then this intimacy is Meister talks in his trust equation. It talks about intimacy, it’s that ability to very quickly be robust in in the feedback. And the model I always hold in my head is I like I wish I wonder, which is design thinking which is a much better feedback model than a sample evidence or affect or change. But it’s I like this, I wish that I could have a bit more of a commercial impact. And I wonder whether we thought about the right personas, that is so much more of a better conversation, then is that what you recommend for giving feedback to each other? Is using those I statements, particularly on ideas and thoughts? Is I like, yeah, so I liked the fact that you plan the questions, but you’ve pivoted towards the end of this. Yeah. I wish we had more time because I’d love to explore this, and a better way. And I wonder whether the answer I gave you earlier on to the point about this breakdown, some people are starting to think so I want to know more about that. So I wonder if I was right to add it in. So this piece is starting to get people to think in a different way. So trust is one is six out of 10. Seven out of 10. I’m gonna let them go. But then the second is about how you, you act on that feedback of what they come back with to do that. So that’s what I would recommend. Yeah, so good. So good. So actionable. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you so much for your insights today. Remember, folks the name of the book is be more wrong. I’ll have a link to it in the show notes please check it out. And all your links Colin will be in the show notes. But for folks on the go are exercising right now as they’re listening. Where’s the best place they can find out more about you and your work? So LinkedIn is one place that they can go Colin Hunter, you’ll find me there. And then I’ve got to explain this one but the at the Colin Hunter. And the reason I’ve got the Colin Hunter next is I had Jacqueline Farrington, I mentioned before, she did an exercise with me with impostor syndrome and she said So are you calling Hunter said yeah, I’m calling and she said are you the collar Hunter and I went no, no, I’m just calling Hunter. And she went no, no, you’re the call Hunter and after a while she got me to realize that nobody is going to take me for for any value unless I believe that I am the condo because I am the only the content of that. I know that looks and sounds like me. So at the Colin Hunter. Instagram is another place you can find me. Oh, and also you have another Instagram handle as well for your company. Yes, yes. Okay, those will all be in the show notes. Yeah. Great. I love it. Thank you so much for your time. It was a pleasure to connect with you. Lovely to connect with you as long as you thank you. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode and good

Maria Ross  35:00

So on the empathy edge podcast if you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share the podcast with your friends and colleagues. Until next time, always remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

To unleash the potential of all employees in your organization, you need to create an environment where they feel safe enough to offer new ideas, speak up about risks, and bring their unique perspectives. If your culture lacks psychological safety, you could be missing out on opportunities or running headfirst into costly and avoidable risks. 

Today,Minette Norman, speaker, consultant, and co-author of the Psychological Safety Playbook, defines psychological safety and how it’s intertwined with inclusivity and trust, and what role empathy plays in creating such a culture. We discuss clear markers of a psychologically safe culture, and what organizations miss out on when they punish dissent, failure, or authenticity. Finally, Minette shares fabulous and actionable ways you can work toward a more psychologically safe culture where your people do their best work. Today’s episode is full of so many gems, take a listen.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• If people do not feel psychologically safe, they will not feel like they can speak up. Their amazing ideas will go unheard. Their points of view will go unseen. 
• Disagreement without personal attack is a sign of psychological safety. 
• It is important that leaders are more equipped and trained to have these conversations, with the correct vocabulary and understanding to talk about psychological safety. 

“You don’t come into a room and say ‘This is a safe environment.’ It happens over time when people see repeatedly that there will be no ramifications from speaking up. It takes time, consistency, and practice.” —  Minette Norman

Episode References: 

• The Empathy Edge Podcast – Kathy Klotz-Guest – Trust, Improve, & Humor for a More Innovative Culture
• Amy Edmondson – The Fearless Organization
• Jennifer Aaker and Naomi Bagdonas – Humor, Seriously: Why Humor is a Secret Weapon in Business and Life

About Minette Norman:

With decades od experience in the software industry, Minette Norman now focuses on developing transformational leaders who create inclusive working environments rooted in psychological safety. Minette has extensive experience leading globally distributed teams and believes that when groups leverage diversity, breakthroughs happen. Before starting her own consultancy she was VP of Engineering Practice at Autodesk, where she transformed how Autodesk developed software. Responsible for more than 3,500 engineers around the globe, she focused on state-of-the-art engineering practices while nurturing a collaborative and inclusive culture.

Minette is a keynote speaker on inclusive leadership, psychological safety in the workplace, and embracing empathy. Named in 2017 as one of the “Most Influential Women in Bay Area Business” by the San Francisco Business Times and as “Business Role Model of the Year” in the 2018 Women in IT/Silicon Valley Awards, Minette is a recognized leader with a unique perspective.

Minette has co-authored he Psychological Safety Playbook: Lead More Powerfully by Being More Human and her second book, The Boldly Inclusive Leader, publishes August 2023.

Connect with Minette Norman:  

Website: https://www.minettenorman.com/

Book: Psychological Safety Playbook: Lead More Powerfully by Being More Human https://thepsychologicalsafetyplaybook.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/minettenorman 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/minettenorman/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/minetten 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/minettenorman/ 

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. To unleash the potential of all employees for the good of your organization, you need to create an environment where they feel safe enough to unleash that potential, where they can offer new ideas, speak up about risks, and bring their unique perspectives, even if that means contrary opinions. If your culture lacks psychological safety, you could be missing out on opportunities or running headfirst into costly and avoidable risks. Today, my guest is manette Norman speaker, consultant and co author of the psychological safety playbook. She brings decades of leadership experience in the software industry to her consulting practice, which is focused on developing transformational leaders who create inclusive working environments with a foundation of psychological safety. Manette has extensive experience leading globally distributed teams, and believes that when groups leverage diversity in all its forms, breakthroughs happen. Her most recent position before launching her consultancy, was vice president of engineering practice at Autodesk, where she transformed how Autodesk developed software responsible for influencing more than 3500 engineers around the globe. She focused on state of the art engineering practices, while nurturing a collaborative and inclusive culture. Today manette defines psychological safety and how it’s intertwined with inclusivity, and trust, and what role empathy plays in creating such a culture. We discuss clear markers of a psychologically safe culture, what organizations miss out on when they punish dissent, failure or authenticity, and manette shares fabulous and actionable ways you can work toward a more psychologically safe culture where your people do their best work. Today’s episode is full of so many gems, take a listen. Big welcome and net to the empathy edge Podcast. I’m so excited to talk to you about this idea and this concept of psychological safety because it is out there and many of us don’t understand it. So welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Maria,

Minette Norman  03:25

really happy to be here with you.

Maria Ross  03:27

So before we kick off, can you tell us briefly what brought you to this work and to becoming an expert in psychological safety? Ooh, well, it’s

Minette Norman  03:36

a rather long story that I’m going to try to make short. I spent 30 years in the software industry. And I started out as an individual contributor, I actually got my start as a technical writer. And I then worked my way up through various management positions, I ended up the last five years in the industry as the VP of engineering practice at Autodesk. And I was leading really large teams, you know, like 3500 engineers around the globe. And I had this interesting charter and my charter was to get people to start working together in a very fragmented and siloed company, to use common tools and to share code. And what I realized in this, you know, five year journey of the job was that this was not a technical problem. Although that we had some technical challenges. It was about human behavior. It was about a willingness to listen to other viewpoints and not be right and not be convinced that your way was the only way. So that was part of it. It was like how do we get people to collaborate? So I was just getting myself in education in collaboration and listening and communication and empathy. And all of those things came up for me at the same time. Here I was I was the first woman who had lead engineering. I felt very much like I wasn’t part of the insider’s club. I’ve been mentoring a lot of women. I was increasingly working with people from other underrepresented communities and I was we were just starting to really talk about diversity, equity and inclusion. She’s in sort of the preliminary days of it. And I was finding myself just being more and more of a champion for all of us who felt like we didn’t have a voice. And I cannot tell you how many meetings I was a part of, and probably many that I led myself, where I didn’t feel I had I could speak up, or I could really, you know, challenge when I disagreed, and I’m sure people in my organization didn’t always feel that way, either. So I came across, I think, I can’t remember the order. But I was doing some research for a keynote that I was giving. And I found the research that Google had done on psychological safety project, Aristotle, which is well known. And I also found Amy Edmondson is work which Google found when they were doing their research. And her book came out sometime in that timeframe, the fearless organization. So I just started realizing that, oh, psychological safety is a term I didn’t know before. And yet, it is just fundamental to all of the things that I was trying to work on, including collaboration, and including inclusion and equity, that without this feeling, and maybe I’ll just define it right here. So we really are on the same page. Without the feeling that in this team, this is a safe place for me to ask a question, speak up, if I disagree, challenge, the dominant viewpoint without fear of being excluded, being embarrassed, being marginalized. So that’s basically it. And although it sounds like I kind of don’t like the term because it sounds so geeky and academic, but the way I come back to it is it is a deeply human experience. And all of us really need to feel heard and seen and valued and respected for who we are. And without that foundation of psychological safety, where, yes, I can have a different viewpoint I can dissent, I can challenge, then what happens is we all hold back, and we don’t, we don’t share our gifts with the world, we don’t share what’s unique about us, we don’t share our experience and our unique mind. And the organization doesn’t benefit from everything we have to offer. So that’s how I came to it. And then ultimately, you know, I won’t, I won’t share the full story. But I felt that my voice was no longer really welcome. After a certain point, you know, leadership changes, things change within an organization. And I felt like the way I was challenging was maybe a bit much. And I left, I left in 2019. And I had to do a lot of soul searching about what’s important to me after I actually didn’t think I would start my own business, because I’d been inside for 30 years, right, kind of institutionalized in working for a company. But I felt like you know, what’s really important to me is everything I have learned over these decades, I want to share with other leaders, because I actually believe most managers and leaders want to do the right thing. They want to have high performing teams and engaged employees, but they don’t know how you and I feel like you know, we don’t train managers, I was never properly trained. As a manager, I learned through, you know, a few classes here and there and watching role models, and also seeing really poor role models and what I didn’t want to do, I felt like we should just do a better job of training managers. And so you know, I started this work on inclusive leadership, and I do speaking and, and workshops to try to help more managers do better. Wow, so much to unpack there. But yeah, I

Maria Ross  08:12

mean, I think it’s so important. I too, came from having worked for other people my entire career, and having great success with that, and then sort of got thrust into entrepreneurship. And when you think back, you realize that so much of when you you felt like you were in a dysfunctional environment, was really about not feeling psychologically safe. And I kind of equate that I don’t know if this is wrong to do this. But I feel like it’s so closely linked with trust. Because if I trust the people I’m working with and my manager, I know, I can take risks. I know I can play devil’s advocate. I know I can disagree. And so I never in my mind thought of it in terms of safety before but it is true. It’s about what do I feel okay with revealing about myself with contributing to the conversation, and we lose out I mean, if we need to make the business case, it’s similar as it is for empathy. We lose out on innovation, we lose out on engagement, like this is not just some like woowoo fluffy thing. It’s if people don’t speak up, they don’t contribute their gifts. And if they see a project going off the rails, they don’t warn you. They don’t say anything because they don’t want to be that person. That is doom and gloom, right? So but if you have a trusting environment, you can say what you mean, you can mean what you say, you can be okay, with a little bit of conflict, a little bit of disagreement. And most importantly, from an inclusivity perspective, you can feel okay with being yourself and bringing yourself to work and any of your identities, whether you’re gay or straight or trans, whatever religion you are, whatever nationality you are, whatever race you are, and then you’re able to contribute that point of view to make better business decisions because you might see thinks differently than another person does. So I love the work that you’re doing. And I want to talk about, I actually have like a quirky question for you. Yeah. Can you have an inclusive culture? If people don’t feel psychologically safe? And vice versa? If people don’t feel like you have an inclusive culture? Can they still feel like it’s a psychologically safe place to be? Or do you have to have all or none?

Minette Norman  10:25

So first of all, I love that you asked that I don’t think it’s quirky at all, I believe, and I’m not alone in this. But I really believe that they are intrinsically linked and that you do not get inclusion without psychological safety. And vice versa. If you had to put one first, I guess, I would say that maybe the safety is the first level of getting to inclusion, right? Because you do have to feel safe to show who you are and how you think. But they’re very, very closely linked. And I think, you know, there’s so much emphasis on diversity and diversity hiring. But what companies and organizations and often managers forget about is that, are you going to really benefit from the diverse talent that you’ve hired, if you don’t work really hard on creating that safe and inclusive culture? And my answer is no. And in fact, work on that culture as your starting point. Because anyone who comes in and sees that this is not a place where I can actually challenge things and speak up, they’re not going to stick around or they’ll they’ll check out.

Maria Ross  11:23

Absolutely. And I know that you know, with your book, the psychological safety playbook, it’s I love that it is a playbook because I think there’s many leaders nodding their heads going, okay, yeah, I’m on board, I want to create a psychologically safe culture. How do we do that? Exactly. That’s why we wrote the book. Well, number one, where would you start? How could you start? Realistically, and without doing harm? Assess if you do have a cycle, like assess the level of psychological safety in your organization? Because I would, I would imagine that the first step is to get the pulse of

Minette Norman  11:57

where we are now. Yeah, and there’s a very simple assessment. In fact, how I came to end up writing this book with Colleen Helbig, who’s in Germany, is that we got a certification in running assessments based on Amy Edmondson has worked there seven questions, essentially, she includes them in her book, The fearless organization, and they have basically give you a score of psychological safety across four dimensions. And it’s a great place, especially I found for any organization that feels that data is important. It’s a great data point to say, this is where this team is today, in terms of psychological safety, I don’t recommend doing an assessment and then saying, Okay, we’re good, right? Because the thing is, really, what do you do with the data? And so, for me, it’s like, okay, what are we going to do, even if you have a relatively high score, there’s always something to be done. So without action afterwards, you know, it’s just data data for data’s sake. But it’s a great way to come into an award totally an on premise. You know, practitioners like me, and they’re there. I don’t know, there may be 100, people who are now certified in the methodology we can come in, it’s utterly anonymous. We’re the only ones who have access to the data. And then we can come in to facilitate a conversation with a team. And I think it’s really for me, it’s funny, like, it almost doesn’t matter what the data is, it’s having that first conversation, and opening the door to talking about what’s really going on here.

Maria Ross  13:17

Can you actually assess if the environment is not psychologically safe, though? Will people be honest in their answers?

Minette Norman  13:23

Well, it depends if they believe in anonymity. Got it? Yeah, it’s you know, that’s the thing like I that’s also true on employee surveys, like, I remember back when I was at Autodesk, we would run these big surveys. And some people were like, I don’t believe it’s anonymous, right? So if that’s the case, that’s going to be the case everywhere. But if if they can really be convinced, honestly, it’s anonymous, no one’s going to know. The other thing that’s interesting about it is that if there are extremes in the data, the way this survey works, is that you throw out the extremes when you show the team their data, so that no one’s gonna be there. Like, okay, what if I scored zero, and they’re gonna know who it is? So if there’s one person who score zero, we’re not going to show that when we write.

Maria Ross  14:02

Right, I think well, I mean, you know, not that the show is about plugging. But I think that it’s important to have someone external come in and conduct that and facilitate that data, someone who doesn’t have any skin, political skin in the game. Exactly. I think that that’s important for accuracy of the data. Right. So tell me a little bit about how you see psychological safety, manifesting itself. So can you give us some examples of markers of if you see this are folks listening? No, this is part of their environment. They can feel somewhat good about the fact that there’s aspects of psychological safety happening in their workplace. Yeah,

Minette Norman  14:44

there’s some there’s some really, I would say they’re almost tells about so Yeah, exactly. So one is like if a leader of a team, you know, can be a sea level, it can be a first line manager. It can be anyone in between, but if a leader of a team actually invites dis intent and other viewpoints. I mean, I’m really actively invited in and like we in our playbook, we actually say, if you’re a leader, one of the things you should do is ask the question, What am I missing? Right? Because you really want to get those other points of view. And then if those leaders actually listen without getting defensive, eventually, yeah, yes, exactly. With curiosity, exactly, wanting to understand and seeking to understand as opposed to refute, or to put their viewpoint forward. Those are so that’s one tell, you know, another Talon, I remember, this is something that I remember from early in my career, and I didn’t know at all what it was at the time, but it was so special. I was part of a team way back in the early days of Silicon Valley. And we had a super high level of psychological safety. And these were the markers of that team. We were cross functional, we all have different talents, we were very egalitarian even in how we ran meetings. So without anyone coming in and telling us to do this, we took turns taking notes. And you know, you certainly probably know this Maria. In many settings, it’s the women and the marginalize people who do the office housework, which is a Note taking is one of those things, we were a group of men and women and we all took turns taking notes, no one had the burden every time, we also, without formalizing it, we really had equal talking time. And that’s also a marker of psychological safety, that every single member of the team speaks more or less equally. But what’s and here’s the opposite marker, which is really common is that you’re in a group of 10. And two or three people dominate the conversation and the other seven or eight, hold back, you can even see in their body language, they’re sitting back, they’re not speaking up. And that’s generally a sign that there’s something going on here. And it’s probably not fully safe. Another marker of an unsafe environment is that you have the meeting, and I talk about meetings, because so much of how we live out our culture is in meetings, right? And that manifests, like, what happens in meetings is kind of what’s the culture is all about, if you’re going to meeting and you know, let’s say the leader got up and said, This is what we’re doing this quarter. And you know, this is what I expect of all of you. And everyone nods their head and said, you were ever on board, and you walk out of the room, or you have the slack afterwards. And it’s like, there’s no way in hell this is ever going to work. It’s the meeting after the meeting. Yeah, it was comfortable speaking up inside the actual meeting. That’s a lack of psychological safety. Right? Now, I could go on and on. But I’m gonna give one more, which I think is important. And that is a sign of a psychologically safe team. And that is that people do disagree with one another. And that they can argue in a respectful way. So it’s not. And this is where the fine line is, is that people are not being unnaturally polite with one another when people are super polite, and cautious. It’s probably because they don’t feel safe, when you can have a heated argument. But it’s not personal. It’s like, Maria, I see things from a totally different point of view, is it okay, if I share that, but I’m not attacking you and saying, Ray, you’re an idiot for saying that right? Sir. I’m not making people feel badly about their perspective. But it’s like I have a very different viewpoint, it can be an argument, and we have a way to get through it. And no one feels hurt, or rejected or marginalized after that, right?

Maria Ross  18:18

I’m wondering too, if this is bringing to mind the role of humor in the workplace. And I had a lovely guest on the show, about two years ago, Kathy coats guest who you may be familiar with, she speaks a lot about being human, and injecting principles of improv and comedy into your culture, but for the purpose of creating trust, but she also talks about the fact that you can’t just inject humor into your culture, if there is no trust. So they’re very closely aligned. I’m wondering if that’s one of your markers at all, if colleagues can joke around with each other, if managers and their direct reports can joke around with each other and sort of kill each other and roast each other? Is that a sign that it’s psychologically safe?

Minette Norman  19:02

Yeah, generally. And in fact, we have that in our book that in there’s there’s good evidence about that. I thought you were going to mention Naomi by Jonas and Jennifer acre, who have a book about humor at work, and I forget what it’s called, but we referenced it in the playbook. But yes, humor is a sign that we are safe, especially when you know we can make fun of ourselves, for our leaders to actually laugh at themselves. And then at one another, and any night, go back to that same team. I was mentioning that I was a part of we joked around all the time all the time, like our little ways of kid and each other and he’s like, you know, it would be about my quirks and their quirks but it was never hurtful. It was because we cared about each other. We knew each other we trusted each other. And I will come back to your your mention of improv. So improv. We include sort of that. Yes. And you know that yes. And concept from improv in our playbook. I’ll tell you a story of when I was leading a team I was leading a really senior team at at Autodesk and I had one of these leadership offsides and I had a group that was, honestly we were pretty fragmented, I had inherited a bunch of functions. So I had like, senior directors who all reported to me and they all lead different functions. And we couldn’t figure out how to come together as a team. It was just like a bunch of silos. And I had this off site. And one of the people in my organization was an improv actor. And she actually, he’s in San Francisco and does improv regularly on the weekends. And I invited her in for a half day. And we did improv. And you know, the funny thing about it is that I had a group of some very, very serious introverts and engineers who like, if I had said to them, we’re going to do improv tomorrow, they would have called in sick, they wouldn’t have shown up on our agenda, we just had like team activity. Right, right. Right, right. But it just like we all laughed in the most outrageous ways, because, first of all, we all made ourselves look like idiots. But it was also it was very low risk. So you with humor, I think part of like getting levity into the environment and making it safe, it has to be very low risk, and you have to be like, we’re either all going to be embarrassed together. Round, no one’s going to be very, you know, intimate, right? Doing was like very simple, silly things. And then we all laugh together. And it was incredibly bonding. And, and the result of that, so it wasn’t just that we laughed for half a day, and then went back to work. Yeah. But the result of that was every time we had a staff meeting after that, when we started to get into a conversation where someone was like putting someone down, which would happen, or not listening, or like talking over, we had this code language that we started to use, and we would just all say, yes, and, and just to remind ourselves of like, the power of building on one another, as opposed to tearing each other down. And the Yes, but it’s never gonna work. Yes. And it’s just like from improv is such a powerful way to really be inclusive to all the ideas into human human voices. So we we took that forward, and I think it really made a big difference in our team dynamics.

Maria Ross  21:55

I love it so much. And I think we’ve kind of danced around it, but what, what is the importance of empathy and creating that psychologically safe environment? How? Well,

Minette Norman  22:05

you know, I think it’s so interested, again, intrinsically linked, like with inclusion, because we have to care about the experiences of the people around us. And really, that’s, you know, that’s what empathy is, in a nutshell, is that we can’t and you know, the other thing about the myth of like walking in someone else’s shoes, you can’t, but you have to try to imagine what they’re going through, you have to care about what they’re going through, in order to make it safe for them. And so like, you know, for example, like, if you’re here, I was a white woman in a leadership position, and I was dealing with people from underrepresented groups, I don’t know what it’s like to be a black man or an Asian woman in the workplace. But I know that they’re dealing with things I’m not, and I need to care about their experience, even if I cannot live their life, you know, I ran. So I think there’s just the the Caring about other people’s experiences. And trying, you know, the compassion that goes along with empathy, so often is that I want to make it better. And I care that you’re having a good experience. And I can hear that we collectively, are all having a good experience. So that’s why I think they’re very, very closely linked. So I have kind

Maria Ross  23:12

of an interesting question that I’ve been hearing from a lot of leaders who are who are sold on wanting to be more empathetic. And you and I may have talked about this in the past. But the challenge they’re having is that in their quest to be more empathetic leaders, they are finding that they’re being met with employees who are sort of using the psychology as a weapon, they’re using empathy as a weapon in terms of, you know, there’s a difficult business decision that has to be enforced. And, or there’s, you know, there’s something, something you have to do as a worker, you know, you’re being expected to do you’re being asked to do, and the rebuttal is, well, I don’t feel safe, or you’re not respecting my boundaries. And you know, they start raising all these red flag HR issues. And they’re kind of wielding it as a weapon of being able to get out of doing the thing that they don’t want to do or adhering to the policy they don’t want to adhere to. Would you have any advice for someone who is fearing that or who’s facing that? In that, you know, so where do I go from there? If I’m being met with if I’m trying all the things to create the psychologically safe environment? I’m trying to connect with my team, I’m trying to be empathetic, give them a wide berth, you know, understand their needs and their frustrations and their goals. And yet, I need them to do the work I need them to do. Do you have any advice?

Minette Norman  24:38

Yeah. And the you know, at this, I would say it’s really interesting that you said like, it’s being empathy as a term is being weaponized. So is psychological safety. Yes. Yeah, definitely. And it’s sort of the excuse for all behavior, and m&a even recently, people will, you know, with all the recent layoffs in Silicon Valley, people saying, you know, there goes our psychological safety. They did layoffs, you know, and it’s like, I think that There’s this myth both around empathy around inclusion and around psychological safety, that we’re wrapping everyone in a protective bubble and nothing bad can ever happen, right. And that’s obviously not true. And I think with empathy and with psychological safety, I think for leaders, what I would say is like, I would actually talk about these things openly, like, what psychological safety and what empathetic leadership mean, what they are and what they aren’t. So it doesn’t mean that nothing bad is going to ever happen. It also doesn’t mean I am not holding you accountable for what we’ve agreed on. What it does mean is that if you’re struggling, we’re going to talk about it, I’m not going to just give you a, you know, a terrible review at the end of the quarter, or the URI, we’re going to talk about how I can help you how I can help you be successful, how I can clear barriers, which all managers should be doing, right, and you are going to upheld, uphold your end of the bargain. And that’s true for everybody. So accountability, in some ways, is actually, if you’re in a safe environment, a psychologically safe environment, you should be able to talk really openly about this. And it’s like, okay, you’re not holding up your end of the bargain. And what do we need to do collectively to make sure you can, what’s getting in the way, but we got to talk about this, it’s not going to we’re not going to go dark, and we’re not going to pretend nothing’s going on here. So yeah, I think we need to, I think we just need to really talk about it and have leaders. This is why I think the training is so important to get leaders more equipped to have these conversations with their teams, and to have the vocabulary and the understanding to talk about it. Because I think they don’t like right now. It’s pretty scary to be called out as like, you’re not creating a safe environment, right? Well, and empathetic. And

Maria Ross  26:35

there’s fears of litigation, like, isn’t he honest. And it’s very, you know, you hear these you hear as a leader, these trigger words, and you’re like, Okay, we’re shutting this conversation down. Right now. I’ve heard of leaders that have done that, right. Yes. And so that’s difficult. And I think that, that you’re right is being able to have the conversation and sort of call it out ahead of time. And explain, let’s all agree what we mean by empathy, empathetic leadership, let’s all agree what we mean by psychological safety, and not at the point that you need to define it.

Minette Norman  27:05

Exactly. So I mean, I really believe like, you know, it’s great to read articles together as a team, you know, whether you read, you know, your book, or our book, or you read some articles about the topics or even like, read a report on empathy, you know, the one that right, the state of and replace empathy to work my empathy report, like or listen to podcasts, or listen to podcasts. There are lots of resources, but to do that, as a group to meet up and discuss it, it’s on the same page. And let’s talk about this. Like, let’s spend one of our staff meetings talking about what this means and what it means specifically for us as a team.

Maria Ross  27:38

I love that advice. I think that’s great. I mean, I think so many, so many leaders try different things to do as a group where it’s like forced fun activities, or like, let’s start a book. You know, let’s start a book club. But I love the sight, sort of short sprint of let’s read an article, let’s bring a speaker in, let’s listen to a podcast. But let’s do it together. And then let’s discuss it together. What did we learn? What were the insights? What did you walk away with? Can we and I feel like, and maybe this is not the way to go about it. But I’m a very process driven person. And I feel like all of these things we’re talking about when we’re talking about inclusive cultures, or psychological safety, or empathetic leadership, they’re just sort of the series of contracts with each other on how we’re going to get the work done, not just what work needs to get done. But Let’s all make sure we are crystal clear. You know, we as business owners, as vendors have contracts that spell out our terms. We need more contracts. within the workplace, I think, you know, nothing laborious or litigious, but just more of that, making sure everyone’s on the same page, and they’re committing very clearly to the same thing. I think there’s so much assumption on well, you know, I hired men that she should know that I expect this or that, I expect that or they should know, that’s how we do things around here. There’s all these unsaid rules that are just all these assumptions we make. I feel like if we could have more, you know, sub mini sprint contracts with each other around these different themes. Our workplaces would actually be better, it might make people roll their eyes a little bit, but I don’t know, what do you think of that? You know, I

Minette Norman  29:18

think you’re onto something. Because, you know, for example, here’s a really a simple example, that and it can be extended to lots of different things. But I really believe and we talk about it in our book, that it’s really helpful to have ground rules for meetings. Yes. How are we going to run our meetings? Because then we know, okay, if we want to raise our hands, are we gonna raise our hands? If we want to talk? Are we going to go around the virtual table that establish ground rules? Because then everyone knows and then the other thing that’s powerful about that is you can go you know what, we’re not actually upholding our ground. And you write all someone out in it in a respectful way, because you’ve collectively agreed to them. I first there should be much to your point. I think there should be more norms. They’re basically team norms of how we behave. How do we deal with miss deadlines? How do we deal with failure which is A really big aspect of site building psychological safety, that we can actually talk about failure and put some of these agreements. And I think, you know, they shouldn’t come top down, they should be co created with the team, so that everyone buys into them. And we agree like, Okay, this is how we’re going to do a blameless post mortem, or, you know, whatever it is, this is how our one on ones are gonna go and to agree to these things. And nobody

Maria Ross  30:21

wants to take the time to do that everyone is moving too fast. But it would actually save us so much time and heartache, if we would just have those discussions upfront of like, how are we going to work together? How are we going to communicate together? How are we going to make hybrid and in person employees, equitable in meetings, in projects, in FaceTime with executives, we skip over those things, because we think they don’t matter. But they actually are the things that matter the most to the success or failure of the initiatives?

Minette Norman  30:52

Yes, they do. And you know, I’ve seen it be successful you have, it has to be sustained, that says yes, and then there’s like this initial enthusiasm for it. Like, we’ve agreed on our meeting ground rules. I saw a small company, they were negative, quite smart, but they had them on the wall of their conference room. And they would start off the meeting by reading them aloud. And that’s actually great. Like, it’s It wasn’t long, it wasn’t a long list, but it’s like, okay, let’s just remind ourselves, and that’s, you know, that’s smart. Because it’s like, okay, we’re going to re establish that we agreed to this, before we get into the heart of our meeting. And then if someone you know, if we say there’s no interruption rule, then we’re going to be like, hold on, Maria just didn’t finish her thought. Let’s let her finish before we move on. And so you can reinforce the rules as you go.

Maria Ross  31:33

And you don’t feel guilty for doing it. Yeah, everyone’s clear about it. You can be the Enforcer. If you want it,

Minette Norman  31:39

it actually makes you feel comfortable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because it you know, one of the one of the ground rules should be any one member of this team can and should call out when we’re not following the rules. So you’re empowering everyone. And it’s not like scary to do, right?

Maria Ross  31:55

Yeah, what’s sort of a last little golden nugget you would leave people with if they’re embarking on? Okay, we want to, we want to do what we can and really put focus on creating a psychologically safe environment so that our people can thrive? What’s a piece of advice you have as they start that journey?

Minette Norman  32:12

Well, I would say that starting anywhere, you don’t like the thing is, is that you can get overwhelmed, and I don’t want anyone to be overwhelmed. So start, you know, one place is start by being a better listener, and to listen with true curiosity, with full attention. And with the willingness to understand a viewpoint that is different from your own, that’s a great place to start, start by asking for dissent. You know, I mean, they’re just little things you can do. And our playbook has 25 of those ideas in them. So the the way we wrote it is that you can pick it up anywhere, like today, I’m actually struggling with meetings, I’m going to go to the section on inclusive rituals. And I’m going to find out, one thing I can do today to run a better meeting. And the idea is start anywhere, and then practice and see what works. And if something doesn’t work for you try another thing. And there are lots of ideas that we have for you. And we don’t have the exhaustive list. Of course, this is just a starting point. But be willing, I guess what I would say is be willing to try it out over a sustained period of time, because you don’t flip a switch, you don’t come into a room and say this is a safe environment. It happens only over time when people see repeatedly that there will be no ramifications from my speaking up or speaking out. And they really do want to hear my point of view. And as they start to believe that they will feel safer. And it will be you know, this virtuous circle, but it takes time and it takes consistency. And it takes practice.

Maria Ross  33:37

So good. So good. Thank you minute for all of these insights today. Again, folks, the book is called The psychological safety playbook. And you’re working on a second book that’s going to be coming out in 2023, the boldly inclusive leader, would you say that that’s kind of a companion book to the first one.

Minette Norman  33:57

Yeah, it’s a bigger book. So the psychological safety playbook by design is really short and really accessible. The moldy inclusive leader is a full length business book that I’ve been writing for a long time. And I finally finished it, and it has a safe it has a chapter on psychological safety in it. So it’s basically just a more comprehensive book on my views on what everything is in the what’s entailed in becoming a boldly inclusive leader. And that one comes out in August. Love it,

Maria Ross  34:21

love it so much. Well, thank you again, we will have all your links in the show notes for folks to check out your book and get in touch with you on social. But for folks on the go right now where’s the best place they can go to learn more

Minette Norman  34:32

about your work? Yeah, my website Minette norman.com is a great place to start and I’d love for you to connect with me on LinkedIn to wonderful thank you so

Maria Ross  34:41

much for your time today.

Minette Norman  34:42

Thank you for having me worry. It’s been a great conversation. I feel like we could talk for hours we

Maria Ross  34:46

could this topic is near and dear to my heart especially having been scarred by non psychologically safe workplaces in the past. Haven’t at all so, so much and thank you everyone for listening to another wonderful episode of the empathy This podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review it and share it with your friends and colleagues. And until next time remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources, book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

So much of our inability to connect in the workplace comes down to creating an Us vs. Them mentality when it comes to different generations. Research shows that we have five generations all coexisting in the workplace – so we need to sort this out. Such misunderstandings turn off our empathy and cause us to underperform, feel resentful, or blame others.

Today, you are in for a powerful lesson in Generational Codes. – what they are, why they matter, and how you can leverage them to build bridges with different people. My guest is Anna Liotta, a keynote speaker, leadership facilitator, and generational strategist.  We talk about what generational CODES mean (hint: it’s an acronym) and you’ll have so many a-ha moments about why different generations do what they do, how they communicate, and what motivates them. We discuss why you may think certain generations are “entitled” or”authoritarian” and why neither is right or wrong. We explore certain phrases that cause particular friction, such as work ethic and respect. You’ll discover strategies for communicating better across this generational divide – and leave with a better understanding of each other. This episode is a must-listen for anyone of any age in the workplace who wants to collaborate more effectively for great results. 

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• Common sense is not a common thought – it always taps back to someone’s own generational code and how that code was formed in their formative years. This will change from generation to generation. 
• Traditionalist leadership, as a model, came from the military and straight into corporate America. It has created a language that is fight-or-flight, trauma lead leadership. But that is not the only way of leading – younger generations want to be part of the answer and the creation of their corporation.
• Conversation and curiosity are the most important keys to understanding the generational codes of each generation and how those can assist the individuals of your organization. 

“A Generational Code is an algorithm that is running in the background, always informing our actions and reactions about who we trust, what we believe is our right when it comes to how leaders should treat us with empathy or not, who we follow, and who we buy from.” – Anna Liotta

About Anna Liotta, CEO, Keynote Speaker, and Generational Strategist, Resultance, Inc.

Anna is recognized as a top thought leader on generational success — with a client list that includes Amazon, Bloomberg, Coca-Cola, Microsoft, the PGA, and the NBA.

She is the founder of The Generational Institute™ and is the author of the bestseller, Unlocking Generational CODES©, and in 2021 was inducted into the Speaker Hall of Fame.

Anna’s most impressive generational credential? She is the youngest girl of nineteen children. This means that every Thanksgiving, graduation, and wedding is a case study in generational communication.

Connect with Anna Liotta:  

Resultance, Inc: https://annaliotta.com 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annaliotta/

Book: Unlocking Generational CODES: Understanding What Makes Generations Tick and What Ticks Them Off

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Twitter: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Those millennials, whose boomers and oh my gosh, what is up with Gen Z. So much of our inability to connect in the workplace and in life comes down to creating an us versus them mentality when it comes to different generations. Research shows that we have five generations all coexisting in the workplace. So we need to sort this out. Such misunderstandings turn off our empathy and cause us to underperform. feel resentful, or blame others. Today, you are in for a power lesson in generational codes, what they are, why they matter and how you can leverage them to build bridges with different people. My guest is Ana Lyanna, keynote speaker, leadership facilitator and generational strategist, Ana is recognized as a top thought leader on generational success with a client list that includes Amazon, Bloomberg, Coca Cola, Microsoft, the PGA and the NBA. She is the founder of the generational Institute and the author of The Best Seller unlocking generational codes. A book I cannot more highly recommend. On his most impressive generational credential. She is the youngest girl of 19 children. Yes, 19. This means that every Thanksgiving graduation and wedding is a case study in generational communication. Today we talk about what generational codes mean, hint, it’s an acronym. And you’ll have so many aha moments about why different generations do what they do, how they communicate, and what motivates them. We discuss why you may think certain generations are quote entitled or authoritarian, and why neither is right or wrong. We explore certain phrases that cause particular friction, such as work ethic, and respect. You’ll discover strategies for communicating better across this generational divide. And leave with a better understanding for each other empathy on a silver platter packet might even help you understand your kids better. This episode is a must listen for anyone at any age in the workplace, who wants to collaborate more effectively for great results? Take a listen. Anna, welcome to the empathy edge podcast. I have been looking forward to having this conversation with you about generational codes for a while and I know this is something so top of mind, for my listeners, for my clients, for leaders that I’ve come in contact with. So thank you for being here today.

Anna Liotta  04:16

It’s my deep pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.

Maria Ross  04:20

So tell us a little bit about you know, we’ve read your bio, but tell us a little bit about how you got into this work. Just briefly share your story.

Anna Liotta  04:29

You know, it is something that I have to say was organic. I am one of 19 children as you shared. And so surviving as sixth generation household was just part of, you know, my early training, you know, building the muscles doing the reps, but I really have to say it was in my undergrad I wrote my honors thesis on generations. And there had been a moment in my second year of college where I was in an organizational development class. And there was A video that was by a Canadian social scientist. And it was called what you are now is where you were when. And the core premise was when you’re 10 years old, something happens that fundamentally changes the way you see the world. And I remember thinking, What happened to my dad, when he was 10 years old. Now, my dad would be 103 years old this year. So he was three generations older than me. So there was already this gap of me trying to figure out, you know, how he saw the world. And at that moment, I realized that when he was 10, it’s a great depression. He was living in an orphanage, and he got pushed back out onto the streets, because anybody that had family whatsoever, was no longer allowed to be in the orphanage, not enough resources, Great Depression. And he found out at 10 years old that he had aunts and uncles and grandparents that were alive. And it made me think about this moment when I was 16. And I was having a conversation. Well, that’s a polite way to say it, I was crying nose, you know, it’s not running out of my nose, tears down the eyes, salty as heck. And I said to him, why can’t you just say you love me. And he said, I put a roof over your head, I put clothing on your back, and I put food on your table. That is, I love you. And now I was in this moment of thinking of him at 10 years old, having this like, Aha, about, wow, that was like he meant it. Right? And so then I started thinking about other choices, I’m gonna say, I’m putting air quotes around that, that he made as a parent. And I was thinking, how was that shaped by that? And so that was really the beginning of my inquiry, my search to say, well, if I could understand this, and his world, how would that change our relationship, which at that point in college was a little bit more intense than I wanted it to be, quite frankly. And so that was the beginning of my study, and looking at and, you know, beginning to understand from knowledge studies that about age seven, our brain starts to make logic, and between the ages of eight to 18, and really all the way up to 25. We’re watching the world around us, we’re watching the leaders, we’re watching the events, we’re watching the icons. And when there’s an event and it’s paired with an emotion, it creates an imprint, the higher the emotion, the deeper that imprint, and all together that starts to put together what I call a generational code. Or you could say an algorithm that is running in the background, always informing our actions and our reactions about who we trust, what we believe is our right when it comes to how leaders should treat us with empathy or not, who we follow who we buy from. And so the opportunity to help people understand what is that generational code that got shaped in those formative years, pulling it forward, and inviting them to examine it, and oftentimes update it because I say, generational code, but what I want people to understand it is an algorithm, it is not ransomware they can update it, they can elevate it, that it can really make a difference in it, but it takes some doing. And that’s sometimes why people default back to being collective those and insert generation that they currently are frustrated with. Right,

Maria Ross  08:33

right. And, you know, we see this playing out in the workplace, you’ve talked about this, I’ve seen the data around the fact that we’ve got five generations coexisting in the workplace now. And so of course, there’s going to be that friction. And it’s not about stereotyping individuals, but it is about sort of understanding, you know, just like empathy is understanding the context, so that you can understand where people are coming from. And I just find this to be a really useful tool. Now, the biggest thing you hear these days, right is from the conflict of not understanding the younger generations, younger millennials, Gen Z, who you refer to in your wonderful book, as neck stirs. There’s this mystique around, we just don’t understand how they operate. Why don’t they get, quote, unquote, professionalism? Why don’t they understand work ethic? You know, why is it so hard? Why do they want to be coddled or baby? These are the things that I hear from leaders. And for a long time, especially when my book first came out. I was in talks, telling seasoned leaders like Gen Z is demanding things that are totally reasonable and valid and good on them because the rising was at the rising tide lifts all ships. They’re trying to create a workplace where people are seen heard and valued, that’s not a bad thing. Now you might have issue with how they’re going about it. But that doesn’t mean just because they’re demanding respect in the place where they spend the bulk of their time. Time doesn’t mean that they are not hardworking doesn’t mean that they’re not loyal doesn’t mean that they don’t want to make a difference. So let’s back up a bit before we talk specifically about different generations. And can you explain the concept of generational codes, codes being an acronym? And you’ve alluded to a little bit of it in your introduction, but tell us how they work and what are they?

Anna Liotta  10:25

And so one thing I want to say, because that was such a great example that you went through so many nuances just even in the question, common sense is not common. People think, well, this is just good, common sense. And in that moment, they’re referencing back to their own code around how they saw the world and how the world was tapping them together, and the events and all of those things, those values, those attitudes, as motivators, the beliefs that happened during that formative time. So, as leaders, we actually have to be far more explicit about our expectations, and our what we want to say that’s good work product. And that’s good work performance, rather than thinking implicitly that the younger generation or the older generation, either way, their way Yeah, with an expectation that it’s just good common sense. And we do not have the same common reference points. So we always have to be thinking about our metaphors. Our examples, our reference points, that we’re using our jargon are shorthand to say, oh, it’s shorthand right there. That’s actually a term, right. Right, is something that doesn’t isn’t as common anymore. So we have to be making sure that we’re creating a mix of those different examples to actually be relevant and resonant in the moment. Because as you said, context is decisive. And so we have to understand what is the context of the person that I’m speaking to? Yeah, whether they’re more seasoned, or older, or they’re younger and greener than us in the position. And so I think that’s the really critical thing that people have to be understanding is there’s no one generation. That’s right. And other generations, that’s wrong. There are things that are baby boomers dreamed of, like work life balance, having a boss who was kind to me, right, or who was employed, but it was a dream for baby boomers, because there was 80 million of them competing with each other. And then our Gen Xers desired, but there was only 44 million, we just come through a recession, the work pool was full of both men and women, baby boomers, so Gen Xers had to like, buckle down, get on with it. And yes, they were also that generation of latchkey kids that were very under protected. And so there was very little protection for them as a child. And there was also very little protection for them as they entered the workplace. And then our millennials, actually absolutely demanded it. So our baby boomers dreamed of it, our Gen Xers desired it, but our millennials demanded it. And now our Gen Z know they deserve it. Because their Gen X or parents were very careful to support them to develop their agency to know their rights to know that they were, you know, had the right not to be bullied in school. So now they come into the workplace, and they see behaviors that would not be tolerated, in their educational background, what you know, whether it was grade school, high school, college or beyond, and they’re seeing those behaviors in the workplace. And they very quickly will call them out because they were told that they deserved something different. So when we’re thinking about the code, we have to think about how we communicate the C, what is our communication behavior? Like? What are our expectations of communication? Oh, the orientation, what is our orientation? How do we see the world and each one of the letters has a whole different aspect to it, that surrounds the thing, I won’t go through the whole book here, but it’s around what we’re doing, ie for the environment, S for success, and D for discipline. So it’s really important that we understand common sense is not common, we have to get curious, rather than getting Nmap. And I

Maria Ross  14:34

love that you say that because curiosity is the number one trait of empathic people, but also in the work I’m doing now and working on my new book, clarity is one of the pillars of being an empathetic leader and clarity is you are being clear I just had this conversation with someone the other day, but also that the receiver is understanding what you’re saying. So if the receiver is not taking it in If no matter how clear you think you’re being, it’s still your responsibility as the communicator to clarify that. And how do you clarify expectations, performance, model behavior to your team in terms of like, here’s our rules of engagement, here are our norms. And not just what’s in your job description. But here’s how we’re going to interact with each other, instead of just assuming, you know what being professional means, or you know, what work ethic means. So, can we talk a little bit about that? What are some of those hot button terms that you see coming up over and over again, that cause that friction between generations? Maybe one or two examples

Anna Liotta  15:42

are it’s wonderful, wonderful point, you’re making clarity. When it comes to clarity. We also have to know what was driving the bus, what we believe to be clarity. So let’s talk about work ethic. This is a term that people love to get hot under the collar about, right? Because they say, well, they by the way, the moment you say you’ve othered, right, you have made a friction between the two of you. And now there’s you against something. So that’s one of the things for leaders to watch for is did I thy them, and make them my enemy, right? They have no work ethic. So going back to your point about clarity, for our baby boomers, they had one of the worst relationships with their parents of any generation. It was not all sunshine and rainbows between baby boomers and traditionalists and gi generation. So our baby boomers found their sense of self in the workplace. And it looked like workaholics, it looked like working and saying it was being competitive, right? That they were going to work, not just 40, not 50, not 60, not 70, but 80 hour work weeks. And that became quote, unquote, work ethic. They weren’t like a badge of honor. They you know, work on their arm proudly like stripes. And that became that, quote, unquote, standard is I would say, Well, I work this many hours this week, and we would compete on who was sacrificing their health on the altar of work more. So this is one of the big challenges we have right now. When the pandemic started, we saw this huge, great resignation, correct. We saw all of these baby boomers that by the way, had stayed in the workplace 12 years beyond the quote unquote, retirement age, but they were never going to retire because, you know, retirement sounded like it was for old people and our baby boomers saw themselves as the Forever Young generation. So they retired. And it’s taking two to three people to replace them, because they had a work a Holic addiction to their identity being fulfilled through work. So we see in health care, it takes two, three, sometimes for people to replace an 80 Hour Work Week, Doc, who was not putting their health or balance in place. So now you come to Agenzia, or a young millennial coming into that position. And people get really angry, because they say, Well, you just have no work ethic. And they’re saying, Wait, I am doing 40 hours, I’m doing everything in my job description. And yet, you’re angry at me that I’m not working hours that I’m not paid for, or I’m not counted or that kind of thing. And this is where we get into that really big friction point. Because in our clarity around work ethic is staying till the job’s done. Right. We haven’t actually said that. In our interviews. We haven’t said that in our weekly check ins, if we have weekly check ins, which we’ll talk about, you know, some of the solutions that we need to have. So that’s a really big one, right? There is work ethic comes up all the time. Where is that term being driven from? What’s behind it, we have to actually look where is there actually an addiction. The other thing that people will say is they just don’t have any respect for me, right? Yes. really angry when somebody speaks up and speaks back and, you know, questions, authority, questions, authority, right. And you know, love, you know, with all I’m doing a little hard over my heart here, with great love to our baby boomers, they were the original question of authority. People are

Maria Ross  19:32

totally what was it don’t trust anyone under 30? That’s

Anna Liotta  19:37

30. And as far as they’re concerned, they’re still about 29 years old at heart. It’s very difficult for them to realize that they’re not. And I get that and you know, you never feel as old as you are really. But that respect is something that we definitely I mean, all you have to do is watch movies or sitcoms and you see young people popping off if you know it’d be the old term right there. popping back people and they’re questioning things. And so people get really frustrated with respect. But we have to think about are we expecting them to, you know, in the some of the very popular parlance right now that people are talking about is, when people are in the workplace being led, they have a higher expectation of being led in a trauma informed leadership style. So that when I’m doing something that I expect to frighten you into performing or to shame you into performing, which was absolutely normal for our traditionalist normal for our baby boomers, normal for Gen Xers, they didn’t like it, but they were like, I understand what you’re doing. And I’m going to have to, you know, buckle down to this because I don’t have the either mass numbers in the workplace or there’s, you know, I’m just grinding it through. But our millennials and Gen Z are like, listen, fight, flight, freeze, and fawn, I’m not going to perform inside of those different spaces all the time, I’m going to speak up and say something, and we can get people really frustrated when they say, and this is how I invite them to think about it. If you were talking to your kid, if they came home, and explained how the boss manager spoke to them, what would you say to them in that moment? Would you say that is unacceptable? You do not deserve to be spoken to that way? Do you know how incredible you are valuable you are? When you coach them to speak up? And if they don’t get the response? They want flee? Leave, you know, the organization? Or would you say, well, that’s just the way it is honey, you know, bosses are jerks, and you got to buckle down. So it’s a very interesting time. Now, on the flip side of that, we absolutely need to contextualize for our Gen Z’s and our millennials, what came before such that they can have empathy going the other way, as well. So one of the reasons that I always approach any of my keynotes are my strategic advising consulting from a full generational compliment, is because it is in context, in contrast to each other’s experience, that we can have the most empathy, I have to understand what you experienced, to make you human to me, rather than a vague or othered. To me.

Maria Ross  22:28

Well, and so many things in there. I mean, this is just such good stuff. And this is, again, the friction points I hear over and over again as well, especially in context of trying to remain an empathetic leader, but hold boundaries, set expectations and avoid burnout, quite frankly. What do you think some of the patterns are, that leaders fall into? When faced with not knowing how to deal with these generational codes or generational conflicts? What are some of the ways you see that coming out in the workplace and negative? Probably mostly negative? What are some of the ways that manifests so that people listening can recognize Oh, this performance issue might not be a performance issue? It might be a generational conflict we’re having How does it show up in the workplace?

Anna Liotta  23:18

So one of the things is that leaders lead from statements, they say, I declare they don’t usually use that word anymore. I declare I do declare, yeah, I do. But they come at it from leaders are supposed to have all the answers. The way it looked for our baby boomers and our traditionalists is a few people went away, they came back and they rolled out the answer. And that was just the way it was, it was mandated, you didn’t have any agency to speak up until you’ve been there at least five years, maybe longer. And people right now are not staying under that kind of culture and that kind of quote, unquote, leadership. So the question of what is leadership? If you think of it on a quadrant, what leaders need to be thinking of, is if you put two lines were Bucha. And in the bottom left hand quadrant, you would see that the old model of leadership 1.0 is a few people having all the answers. That’s the bottom 1.0 leadership for baby boomers and traditionalists. And it was way it was. And when you think about it, leadership came as a model from the military. For our traditionalists. That was like the first time that there was massive leadership training, right. And they brought that training right into corporate America and we say things like deadlines, you know, officers of the company, there’s so many ways that that’s embedded in on the front line. Yeah, on the front line, all of those things. By the way, those are all fight or flight. That’s all trauma triggered leadership, right? And then you look on the top left hand quadrant, and that would be at the top you’d see many The people. And at the very top, you’d see questions on the very right hand side, you would see many people. So what we want to get to is the top right quadrant, where you are having a lot more questions that are generative in nature. And even if you think you know the answer, you’re asking the question of the many people, because our millennials, and our Gen Z, and yes, our Gen Xers, too, will own an answer. If they were part of the dialogue, they need to be part of CO creating the answer to have that level of ownership, because they’ve always been given that opportunity throughout their formative experiences and their educational experiences. And so now in the workplace, if they are not invited into the conversation, if they are not given frequent opportunities to be part of the conversation, they’re not going to own the answer. And they’re going to see this job as a transaction, not as a relationship that I’m invested in so much of my work right now I actually do these choreographies of inviting people in and out of small conversations about big, important ideas, so that 234 People can be having a conversation about what really matters around questions that are generative. And the thing is, it’s not once a year as a retreat, it is in every conversation, how are we choreography? And how are we designing it so that there’s a moment for reflection and a moment for everyone’s voice to come into it? Because then you don’t say they didn’t seem to respect me in the annual review or in the, you know, bi annual review, we’re having frequent conversations that are about their lived experience, and they’re able to tell me a little bit at a time. And that’s when they feel like, okay, we may not start off seeing eye to eye, but you’re at least seeking to understand my perspective. And so I can create space for your perspective as well. Here we go empathy.

Maria Ross  27:08

Well, and I love this, because you know, when this topic does come up in my talks, I talk about the fact not as in depth and detailed as you but the fact that we’ve got to think about where these generations came from, they came from the era of social media and the internet. information was available to anyone at any time. And they had a voice to anyone at any time, through social media, they are used to an environment where they can express an opinion. And whether you think that’s good or bad, it’s the way it is. Now, I think what would be helpful is, do you have any advice for leaders around how you harness that, and yet still make a decision as a leader, because one of the complaints that I hear is, that’s all well and good, but it’s the younger people that come in demanding a senior director title, for example, after they’ve been out of college for two years. While that might be expected or demanded, it doesn’t make sense for the business, to put someone who hasn’t had that experience in that role. The they think they have enough experience. So how can a leader navigate? I guess those are two issues. One, this idea of expecting more expecting to advance faster than the knowledge you might hold warrants? And second, how do you solicit that feedback? And that opinion, yet make a decision where ultimately, you might have to disregard someone’s opinion, that’s where they struggle is like, you know, then they’re mad at me, because I didn’t actually do the thing they wanted me to do. Do you have any advice around those two very frequent scenarios that I hear all the time?

Anna Liotta  28:49

Yes, I do. So I have a whole program that I call training leaders on the 1010 10 conversation. So one of the things that we do is we have indexed many times to using a lot more technology, high tech, and a lot less conversation, high touch. And so one of the thing is when people say they just showed up and asked for to, you know, after two years that they demanded that they were in a much higher position, and they wanted my job. This is a very frequent thing. And then I ask, how often are you talking to them about their future? And then I get crickets. How structured is the conversation about where do you want to go from here? What ideas do you have? What contributions Do you want to make? What are the micro steps that we can put in place for you to start moving forward in that? So in most senior generations experience, jobs were done in leaps. You were in this job, and then you got a bump, right? And you got an elevation and you got a pay raise and all of that kind of thing. But you waited long periods of time in between those bumps for our younger age. interations they’re saying in the interview. So where can I go from here? Number one question recruiters are getting, where can I go from here in the interview? So yes, I’m going to do this job. But then what’s next? What’s next? What’s next? That’s all part of their generational code. The millennials after 911, everything seemed emergent and urgent, they needed to have that sense of how do I plan my future for Gen Z, look at what COVID has done to their expectations about security in the world, right? So they’re coming in and they’re actually having a conversation, they’re like, life

Maria Ross  30:34

is short, we don’t know what’s going to happen, I need to know where I can go next.

Anna Liotta  30:38

That’s right. And I at least need to have a conversation about it. And that’s where leaders are really missing it. So when the 1010 10 We’re having a conversation in the first 10 minutes about what’s happening, what are you excited about what challenges are going on? We’re having this conversation, we train them in that in the second 10 minutes, we’re having a dialogue now with the leaders reflecting back to them, what they see what they hear what they appreciate. And this becomes a dialogue between them. The final 10 minutes is a future mapping conversation. We’re now we’re training leaders how to have a conversation about what micro steps forward can you be making, and what resources are already available to you that most organizations are abysmal, like just horrifically terrible at making available to people. So we actually design those pathways with them about what are those pathways forward, such that, you know, if somebody comes at you out of the blue, and says, I want a job, you know, way higher than my pay rate that’s on you, because you haven’t been in the dialogue with them, you have not been having a conversation, if it’s surprised, it’s up to you to have been having those conversations such that it wasn’t a big surprise,

Maria Ross  31:55

well, and understanding that they want to have those conversations, I think that’s the key there is that it might not have occurred to some of those leaders that those conversations needed to be had. And I love what you’re saying, because it’s making me think about my very first job out of college decades ago, when I worked for a management consultancy. And it was very clearly laid out the steps you’d follow it was you’re an analyst, and then you’re a consultant, and then you’re a manager, and then you’re an associate partner, and then you’re a partner. And there were even, you know, approximate year amounts of how long people spend at each level. But from the moment I got hired, if I’d stayed there, I knew that if I didn’t screw up, and I did my work, I could eventually in fit, you know, 12 to 15 years, advance up to partner level, if I was doing a good job, it was very clearly laid out. And it was so unusual, because all the other jobs that I had interviewed with, in companies coming out of college, I just remember being so struck by that, like, they laid out the trajectory for everybody. And there was an expectation like, don’t even start asking about this until you’ve done more projects. And you’ve been here about two years, you know, but you still had the conversations and every performance evaluation of what do you need to get to that next level? What do you need to get to that next level?

Anna Liotta  33:19

It was just part of the norm of the company. Yeah. And it’s so critical because we have imbued both our millennials and our Gen Z to a whole new level of, you’ve got skills and you’ve got gifts and you’ve got talents. You’re special. You’re special. But not just that, yes, that’s there. But you know, our traditionalists when we look at their generational workplace codes, workers, they were laborers, they got on with a gun.

Maria Ross  33:48

What generation are we talking about when we talk about traditionalists? For those who haven’t read the book yet? Oh, absolutely.

Anna Liotta  33:53

Traditionalists were born in 1927, all the way up to 1944. Then baby boomers starting in 1945. And so are traditionalists. They got on with the company and 30 years later, maybe they got a cake in a gold watch. Right, a handshake and that was it. Our boomers came in and they saw themselves as an employee. Right? That was not just about labor. It was about politically figuring out what was the way to navigate the company. What was the ladder, how long and you ask a baby boomer, what do you do? And they say I work for they don’t even notice but they leak their generational employee code by saying that name of the company in response to what do you do? Then come exerce and they’re not just employees Gen X or saw their parents get a pink slip in the middle of the 80s reception after you know being so loyal to the company hating the boss but being loyal to the company because they felt like they had no other options. And so Gen X are see themselves as free agents. They signed a contract they work the contract it might be about seven to 13 years in that contract. But they always stayed nimble and kept their resume fresh, and their head on a swivel. They were always looking and here’s your

Maria Ross  35:08

company as a Gen X, or I can say that your company owes you nothing. They owe

Anna Liotta  35:12

you nothing. The two way loyalty Street was broken. And they were free agents. So you ask a Gen X are what do you do? And they say I’m in. I’m in technology, I’m in, you know, engineering, manufacturing, they’ll give you the industry, right? You ask a millennial, what do you do, and they say I’m passionate about my gifts are my talents are what I want to make a difference in is they see themselves as talent, not just free agents, not just employees, and then our Gen Z come. And they see themselves as influencers. They’ve had a YouTube channel, they’ve had friends who made millions, they’ve been seeing people collect and start movements, and move through the world. And so they come into the company, and they want to have influence in some way on something. And they already come in very educated and very socially conscious about the world. And so they’re making an increased demand of companies, because they’re ready to like, that’s

Maria Ross  36:18

my thing, right? And so there’s such a like, little nugget of advice there. If you’re dealing with a disgruntled Gen Z, or give them something to own, give them something to influence and shape. That’s right, and see where they go with it.

Anna Liotta  36:32

And then check in frequently in that first 10 minutes of the 1010 10. What’s up? What are you excited about? What ideas do you have, by the way, I didn’t say anything about work in that they may share personal, they may share work, because we’re in the reality of, I get to bring my whole self to work. And that’s a massively important thing for leaders to understand. If I am not welcome to bring my whole self to work. This is a transactional situation I’m in and anything goes sideways, and I’m on a job board, click, and I’m working for someone else. I have no attachment to you. I would love

Maria Ross  37:13

to bring up another nugget that jumped out at me in the book, which was around the differences in generational codes. You’ve touched on a lot of them here. But this idea of generations being influenced by the concept that information is power that I have to hoard and younger generations where they grew up in the internet age. Information is accessible and it’s democratized for all. Do you see that? How do you see that playing out in the workplace?

Anna Liotta  37:42

So it’s so critical, you know, our baby boomers were the ones that were Information is power, so hold it close to your vest. They heard petition? Yeah, competition, it was all about who had the most and who, you know, come kiss my ring. And maybe I’ll let you

Maria Ross  37:57

get something it’s there’s nothing left for me like a very scarcity mindset. Yes, very scarcity

Anna Liotta  38:01

mindset, okay, our Gen Xers because there were not enough of them to, you know, compete, they said, you know, what we need to do, we need to figure out how to distribute information and be paid for the being the person that figured out how to distribute it. So that’s when you know, Google comes in, that’s when Red fin comes in. That’s where salary.com, like, all these solutions, to be the one that spread the information, sharing information is power. For our millennials, it was about customizing the information, taking all that data that’s out there, and being able to customize it and say, That’s the power is the hyper customization. And for Gen Z, it’s all about the democratization of it and saying, how do we take the information and use it to move something forward? How do we get people to be following us as influencers, and really leveraging the information to move people forward? So now the interesting thing is like, you see people really getting concerned about chat GDP and all of the AI are Gen Zers are not at all concerned about this, because they’re absolutely clear. Yes, jobs will go away, but new jobs will come up. And the thing is that it’s no longer about can you just find information? Can you take the information that’s available in the world? And figure out what is the piece of that information that is critical to moving the world or the work forward? And how do you do that with the information? And yes, customizing it, you know, for our millennials and spreading it for Gen Xers. But it’s really now about what is the voice that is needed to share this information in a way that the world can hear it. How can I influence you with this information? Not just can I find it? It’s not just data.

Maria Ross  39:50

So good, so good. And I want to stress again that I want folks to read the book because it’s just full of great insights but also some advice on how How to deal with these generational rubs. So I know we’re not talking too much about that, like the tips for people but pick up the book because it’s got lots of tips for how to navigate some of these. I think you call those how to be generationally savvy in the book.

Anna Liotta  40:15

There’s cliff notes. Now, they would prefer SparkNotes. Now, yeah, exactly.

Maria Ross  40:20

Now we’re dating ourselves, right? Yeah,

Anna Liotta  40:22

we’re totally Gen Xers. I always say like, my

Maria Ross  40:25

Gen X is showing my notes question I want to leave us on before we wrap. And you know, it’s a big question. But there was something that you said in a pre call that we had, which was this concept of, with some of the younger generations, we might have to teach them empathy, because of the way that they grew up in terms of never having to worry about an adult in their life versus some older generations. Can you talk a little bit about that? And for any leader that’s going, Oh, now I have to do another thing? What’s some of your advice around how you can help your young without saying you need to learn empathy? Right? How can we navigate that? Talk a little bit about that concept, and then what leaders can do to better model and you know, not to be patronizing, but teach how to have two way empathy in the relationship at work. So

Anna Liotta  41:18

it’s an interesting thing, because if you think of parenting as a pendulum, you’ll see that our Gen Xers are over here. And they’re like, super under protected, right? But then the pendulum swung all the way back into the over protected and for our first wave of millennials are baby boomers who under protected their Gen X or kids came back in and Whoa, did they over protect their millennials, and we see it show up in things like, oh, adulting adulting is so hard like those like this comes out of the early Gen Z, early Millennials mouse and you know, I’m still trying to figure out how to adult, that’s a signal that we over parented, or over protected. And you know, we call that helicopter parenting, Snowplow parenting, you know, you name it, what, but it, it got swung too far. It got to be swung back to the middle as our Gen Xers started to parent, our Gen z’s. And now in the second wave of early millennials, parenting, we’re seeing even more swing back to the middle, I bring that up with empathy, because the younger the person, the more we’ve actually learned to start training them in empathy. That means that right now we have young people in the workplace that are between, let’s say, 30, to maybe 2021, that are in that spot, particularly of not having been required as much to really have the empathy. Our early Millennials have learned more of it, because they’ve been in a little bit longer, but they were also the, you know, helicopter parenting. So that’s just to give you a context that this is all happening on a spectrum. It is nuanced. And and I don’t want to just say absolute, you know, nobody has empathy. But the thing is, how we teach them to have empathy is, as you said, the number one thing of empathy is get curious, and get curious by inviting them to interview another person about some of their early leadership experiences, or what was it like when you entered the workplace? Not so they can say when I was her age, right? Because the moment you say, when I was, you’re now into nostalgia, and let’s just be really, really clear. We remember ourselves as heroes, we were the best version

43:34

of ourselves. And that is rarely like absolutely,

Anna Liotta  43:40

almost never actually how it happened. Right? Right. Like, oh, yeah, I didn’t mind working those doubles. I didn’t mind you know,

Maria Ross  43:46

made me stronger. Yes, exactly.

Anna Liotta  43:50

rub some dirt in it, right? Not at all, how it went down. But we have these lovely nostalgia memories of ourselves. So I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about inviting people to truly listen to the other person. And some of the experiences they had, and doing this more than once doing this so that I can actually kind of get like, oh my gosh, that was really difficult. You see this in many of the different communities like, you know, when you look at people sharing about their being gay being lesbian, gob TQ Plus, when you ask them about their lived experience early on, many of our younger generations will be like, really, like that seems like, I mean, certain things that I’m experiencing right now are because you fought on my behalf. So when I think about dei be, I think about, you know, our traditionalists were our first generation of civil rights activists. They made the conversation for civil rights mainstream. Then our baby boomers came along and it wasn’t just about civil rights. It was about being politically correct. And right now that has a stank on it. But it’s really important because it was the conversation of how do we bring civil rights chemically into organizations, what do we measure? What do we count? What do we protect? Right? So affirmative action was a newer conversation that they brought in, then Gen X came in, and it was now about inviting more voices into the room. So diversity became the new momentum thread. And it was having more people at the table from different backgrounds, different perspectives, different lived experiences, as millennials came in, it was about inclusion, having them be part of setting the agenda, not just in the room, not just at the table, but they are planning and leading and moving it forward. And then as Gen Z came in, it’s about belonging, not just being in the room, not just setting the table, but not having to fit into the conversation, not having to present in a way that would be quote, unquote, acceptable. And so each one of these generations when they realize like, what is the work and the shoulders that I stand on, that’s where I could now have a different level of empathy to see how is this progressing. And you can take this into any conversation, workplace rights, you know, you can take any any of those spaces we could talk forever about, if you want to go through each one of those pieces, they all have a generational cadence to them. So when we bring these conversations explicitly, and that’s what I do a lot of my keynotes and a lot of my virtual programs, I’m going into organizations, and I’m bringing that context, such that people can build upon that conversation of singing, I’ve never even seen it that way. I’ve never even thought of it that way from those different generational mixes, that’s when I have a new opening.

Maria Ross  46:38

I love that. And one of the many strategies that exist is something I heard about a few years ago, where companies were intentionally setting up mentoring relationships with people across generations. So that the senior, you know, VP, who was the boomer was learning about social media from their, you know, younger millennial colleague, the younger millennial was learning about, oh, now I understand some of the norms, they grew up with some of the work ethic ideas, they were starting to understand each other because they were in a mentoring relationship. And it was mentoring both ways, because it was the older person learning about the younger generation and the younger person learning about where the older generation had come from. And I remember listening to this interview on NPR, and they interviewed two people that were involved in a mentoring relationship at whatever company, they were profiling. And the younger person said, I never knew that these things happened in the workplace until I had this mentoring relations. I never knew things were like this before, I had this relationship with this person. So getting them to get to know each other as people, and being able to open up those conversations and not so much in a like when I was your age, but just wow, that’s really interesting that this is what it’s like now, because, you know, it was like this before, and then the younger person going really wow, I didn’t even know that was a thing before in the workplace. So those kinds of conversations taking place through very intentional mentoring relationships is one way to deal. And

Anna Liotta  48:05

I would actually add to that, a nuance, which is I would take out the word mentoring, because mentoring has a context to it. That is directional, you can say reverse mentoring, sure. But I would actually encourage people to be thinking about shared dialogues, where I am sharing something with you, and you’re sharing something with me, but we’re taking out the power positionality, the hierarchy, the hierarchy, exactly. So and we also need to set a context for the dialog and then set some design to it, because people will default back to their behavioral economics in one of your previous podcast, you brought up behavioral economics, we do what uses the least amount of calories to do, right, our conscious brain or unconscious brain, we need to set up the conditions for success by removing some of the things that default us back into our unconscious brain and have the power dynamic immediately be defaulted. And that’s why in so many of the programs that I do when I’m designing Appreciative Inquiry into the space, where we move people in and out of different choreographies and into small group spaces and zoom, that’s really important that it’s designed in a way that there’s no hierarchy embedded, that every person comes to it with the same vulnerability. And that’s a really big part of empathy is are you willing to be vulnerable? And are you willing, so it can’t just be about your job? Or how do I get your job because there’s no vulnerability present in that? And so only I shouldn’t say there’s only on one side is it is vulnerability present, right? So we actually have to design opportunities and moments for people to share their humanity and, you know, bring in their passion for their family. So one of the fastest ways to get people to on Understand a younger generation is to give them an example of their own kids or their grandkids. Many times after my keynote, people come up to me and say, oh my gosh, I understand my grandkid, I

50:08

understand my kid now.

Anna Liotta  50:10

And, you know, they’re like everything you said it was them, then then them, right. And this is a whole different world to them. Because before that young person in their office just ticked them off.

Maria Ross  50:20

Love it, we’ll leave it there. Because I think that whole concept of vulnerability is the underpinning of all of this to help us bridge those, you know, as they call them, the generational divides, and especially in the workplace, just making so many assumptions. And that’s what I love about your book, unlocking generational codes, pick it up, it’s really a treasure trove of helping a leader navigate those relationships in a way that will help them improve performance and improve engagement and just for everyone to sort of be happier at work. So thank you for that. We’re gonna have all your links in the show notes on a thank you so much for sharing your insights today. But for folks on the go, where’s a great place, they can find out more about your work.

Anna Liotta  51:04

So my website on eliana.com is awesome. And you know what? Connect with me on LinkedIn.

Maria Ross  51:10

Great, thank you. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. Be sure to connect with me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. And if you liked today’s episode, you know what to do, please share it with a colleague or a friend. And don’t forget to rate and review those are very important. And until next time, please remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Is your organization guilty of checkbox diversity? You know, “Let’s hire one person from a marginalized group and call it a day on our DEIB efforts?” Today’s show explores how to avoid checkbox diversity and leaving out important groups in DEIB strategy to create a meaningful inclusive culture that transforms mindsets, boosts business performance, and allows people to do their best work for you.

Dannie Lynn Fountain and I talk about how to avoid checkbox diversity, the importance of considering the intersectionality nuances in your DEIB efforts, why you need to strategically invest in your Employee Resource Groups if you want to make the right DEIB moves, and how remote-first companies with asynchronous communication are leading the way for inclusive cultures. You’ll also hear the scary wake-up call that COVID is the largest mass disabling event of our time and that potentially one in two people will have some sort of disability that companies must accommodate if they want to attract and more importantly retain the best talent out there.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• For every person that is speaking up, there are dozens that are not. As organizations, we need to be more aware of what our employees need, even when they are unsure if they can speak out.
• So much of disability is invisible. Remote-first allows for accommodating not only working style but also how much of a person they show you, which can help to reduce bias. 
• Before COVID, 1 in 4 adults had some disability. That number has drastically increased due to the long-term effects of COVID or other directly correlated comorbidities to up to 1 in 2, based on some estimates. 
• So much of what we think as accommodation, we think of as needing to be this rigorous process full of bureaucracy that requires form submissions, and doctor-supporting evidence, when really, it’s actually quite simple.

“If you say the current working environment accommodates the extroverted, outgoing, or high-functioning individual, that really puts the word ‘accommodate’ into perspective. Because that’s the reality.” —  Dannie Lynn Fountain

Episode References:

Book: A Woman Makes a Plan by Maye MuskEmpathy Edge Podcast – Cynthia Owyoung: Diversity and Inclusion Deliver Real Results. But Have We Made Progress? About Dannie Lynn Fountain, Staffer at Google: #IamRemarkable Global Inclusion Lead, Author, Keynote Speaker

Dannie Lynn Fountain is a passionate storyteller who helps companies focus on people. By day, she’s a staffer at Google hiring the world’s most talented software engineers and by night she supports clients and brands with HR-focused diversity, equity, and inclusion strategies. She’s also a multi-passionate human – beyond working in HR, Dannie Lynn is a five-time author, licensed IRS Enrolled Agent, and founder of the #sidehustlegal movement. She has been interviewed or quoted in the New York Times, Harvard Business Review, Forbes, Bustle, Bloomberg, Business Insider, Cosmopolitan, Digiday, The Everygirl, Girlboss, and more. Dannie Lynn’s most recent book is Ending Checkbox Diversity, published October 2022.

Connect with Dannie Lynn Fountain:

Website: https://www.danniefountain.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/dannielynnfount

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dannielynnfountain/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dannielynnfountain/

Substack: www.livros.substack.com: bookish content / books Dannie’s read / etc

Book: Ending Checkbox Diversity www.checkboxdiversity.com

HBR Article: https://hbr.org/2023/01/should-you-disclose-an-invisible-marginalized-identity-at-work

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

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Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Is your organization guilty of checkbox diversity? You know, let’s hire one person from a marginalized group and call it a day on our dei B efforts. Today’s show explores how to avoid checkbox diversity, and leaving out important groups in your D IB strategy to create a meaningful inclusive culture that transforms mindsets, boosts business performance and allows people to do their best work for you. Danny Lynn fountain is a passionate storyteller who helps companies focus on people. By day she’s a staffer at Google hiring the world’s most talented software engineers. And by night she supports clients and brands with HR focused Diversity, Equity and Inclusion strategies. Danny Lin is a five time author, licensed IRS Enrolled Agent and founder of the side hustle gal movement. In addition to many media appearances, Her most recent book is ending checkbox diversity. Today we talk about how to avoid checkbox diversity, the importance of considering the intersectionality nuances in your D IB efforts, why you need to strategically invest in your employee resource groups, if you want to make the right d IB moves, and how remote first companies with asynchronous communication are leading the way for inclusive cultures. You’ll also hear the very scary wake up call that COVID has been the largest mass disabling event of our time. And that potentially one in two people will have some sort of disability from long COVID that companies must accommodate for if they want to attract and more importantly, retain the best talent out there. Take a listen. Welcome Danny Lynn fountain to the empathy edge podcast. I am so excited to talk to you about checkbox diversity, and what that is and who is guilty of it. And also talking about the groups that we often exclude from the DEI be conversation when we’re talking about it. So welcome to the show.

Dannie Lynn Fountain  03:24

Thank you so much for having me the there’s such important topics. I’m so excited.

Maria Ross  03:29

I love it. Well, first of all, tell us a little bit about your book, ending checkbox diversity. What do you mean by that term? And what does it look like?

Dannie Lynn Fountain  03:37

Yeah, checkbox. Diversity is kind of an after effect of conversations that were had around affirmative action. It’s like the evolution, essentially, of just saying, Oh, we’re holding an event, we’re building a team or starting a company, we need a black person, a queer person, a Latinx person, and only choosing these folks for the sake of an identity or identities

Maria Ross  04:04

that they hold. And then it kind of stops there. Like there’s no further equity and inclusion work. There’s nothing beyond their identity being stay announced at the start of the event or chindan, their bio, it kind of just ends there. And so ending checkbox diversity is taking a look at frankly, the D IB work that we’re doing, where the sake of PR and digging a little bit deeper into, you know, how we can actually do this to transform the workplace transform culture, and also just transform the basic human respect that people get at work. Yeah, I mean, and I find that in these talks I have with folks, it is just sort of a like Let’s fill out the pie chart of how many different types of people we have in the organization and In the hiring seems to be a very concrete action, they can get their heads around. So they do it. And then they end up not retaining those people because they haven’t actually created a culture of diversity, equity and inclusion where those people feel welcome where they feel they can be themselves or that their contributions are valued from their different perspectives. So what is that chasm there? Is it because companies don’t know what to do once they get the people in the door? Do they feel like just oh, that just means we need to do a bunch of like events and trainings. And that’s going to make our culture inclusive and diverse, like, where is where are folks falling off the cliff, in terms of bridging the gap between the hiring and the retention?

Dannie Lynn Fountain  05:45

Yeah, sort of all of the above. I just listened to an audio book by mainmast her to be completely clear, I did not realize what Elon Musk’s mother and the book overall was okay. But there’s one piece that she talked about was being fashion industry at plus sized older woman, and fashion houses being able to say, Oh, by hiring her as their model, they get to check the plus size and the altar woman bar. And we see this in corporate America in event management, in all these other spaces as well, that if we can check the boxes, if we can check multiple boxes with one person, like even better, instead of taking a moment pausing, considering what our world, our society actually looks like, I believe and I may be misquoting this, but I believe this status that by 2050 will be a majority minority country. Globally, we are already a majority non white world. And so it’s not about having one person to check the boxes of XYZ identity. It’s, hey, society doesn’t look the way your company the way your event, the way your VC fund. Look, it needs to go deeper than that. And so that’s the first piece representation is literally the starting point. Right? It’s only at first. Yeah. Yeah. Taking it through the rest of the way. We have components of how those identities are represented throughout the event. Can those identities engaged in the event with psychological safety? Can they participate to the same extent? And then which is the piece that often gets locked out? Is the event accessible? Is the event literally accessible for all and when I say accessible for all, I don’t just need wheelchair ramps, I mean, closed captions, I mean, quiet spaces for introverts, I mean, all of these different components. And same for companies to companies think about the EIB, and oh, we’ve got the folks in the room. They’re not quitting. Great. We’ve done our job, right. They’re hired and I’m studying. But there’s so much more to it than that. So really, it it’s kind of building these muscles, they get stronger over time, versus donning a t shirt. And you’ve done the job sort of perspective.

Maria Ross  08:21

Yeah. And I think what you’re getting at is that it’s more of a mindset transformation, in that it’s not just about getting the right people around the table. It’s about how are we incorporating them into the work we do their perspectives into our strategy? Are their voices being heard? Are we recognizing, are we promoting? Are we listening to these groups? And so that’s, that’s a much slower burn in terms of being able to transform like, like we said, it’s very easy to just, you know, it’s very concrete to say, we’ve hired this person, and now we’re bringing them in. But to your point, you know, that you were joking about like, Yay, they’re staying the problem is they don’t stay? Because yeah, do you feel like the token person in the room or person in the company? And are they bringing in friends, colleagues, their network of people, because it’s a place where they feel like they belong. And I’m just going to mention here because I did a great interview with Cynthia, our Young, who wrote a book called All are welcome. And it is a literal, step by step playbook on how to create a more diverse, equitable and inclusive culture. Like no doubt, read it if you need the action steps kind of a situation. So with your book, I know you’ve talked a little bit about about invisible, marginalized groups. So when we think dei B, we immediately think of race, and now we’re starting to even think of sexual identity, gender identity, but

Dannie Lynn Fountain  09:57

who’s being left out Yeah, so there’s two ways that you can think about invisible marginalized identities. First, you can think about the identities that aren’t part of the common conversation. So here an obvious one is disability. Again, there’s another stat that says 90 plus percent of companies care about diversity, they have diversity as a part of their annual plan. But only 4% include disability and that, so that’s one component. The other lens of looking at invisible marginalized identity is about facilitation. We, as humans, gravitate towards organizing the people in our spheres around us by labels, either visually, or through the way that they communicate, assigning you labels based on the presentation that you choose the way that you speak, depending on if it’s virtual, or in person, how we’re interacting. But so much of our presentations can be invisible, I don’t wear a sign on my head, that tells you my neurodiverse status. Frankly, my queer status, unless I’m with my wife is largely invisible in my presentation. So it’s both of these components. And there’s, there’s a double edged sword that comes into it, you get to walk into spaces, and not necessarily have those identities visible. But inversely, if you’re familiar with the queer concept of coming out, you don’t in my case, I don’t just come out as queer on a frequent and ongoing basis, I come out, it’s all of these other invisible identities on a frequent and ongoing basis, as well. So it’s both of those pieces, it’s the pieces, the identities that are invisible in our conversation, as well as those that aren’t immediately evident, to our mind need to organize. Hmm,

Maria Ross  11:52

I am constantly noticing, in recent years, maybe it’s my work with empathy, I don’t know how many things are not set up for people with disabilities. And just to give you a random example, we might have talked about this on our pre call, I noticed in public restrooms. And I noticed this because I have an eight year old boy, right who’s shorter, they placed the hooks, they placed the soap dispenser, they placed the paper towel dispenser so high up that if you were a different height, if you were in a wheelchair, if you had some sort of physical disability, you would not be able to reach those items. And I know that’s just like the tip of the iceberg when we’re talking about accessibility. But, you know, to your point, it’s not it’s also not just about those big events and those big conferences or team meetings where it’s like, oh, we’ve got the wheelchair ramps, right. It’s, you know, how are the desks and tables set up? How far are we making people walk to different tracks or different sessions? What is the bathroom situation? So there’s just so many things to think about. And I am not a de IB professional. I’m not even an executive, but I can imagine it can be overwhelming of like, at what point? How much can I possibly think about before I actually can take action and move forward? So what would you say to executives, and leaders listening to this saying, I really want to be more inclusive, but I feel like there’s so much I have to look at and think about that. How am I going to get my work done? Right? So what would you say to people like that?

Dannie Lynn Fountain  13:31

I think there’s two pieces here. The first piece is the business case, which I hate to go to because we shouldn’t be rooting respect for others, like giving someone the ability to access the space the same as everyone else. We shouldn’t be having to root out in a business case. But that’s how execs think. Frankly, it’s expensive not to be thinking about inclusion. It’s expensive in lots of market share. It’s expensive in terms of the folks that you’re able to cater to, it’s expensive in terms of if you have to redevelop something. So first, I’d say it’s expensive not to and also, I’m just thinking about I used to work in sales. Now I work in HR. There are annual planning cycles for literally every component of business. We spend months and months and months deciding business goals, take some of that mental energy and allocate it here. We spend months talking about okay, why is this the right quota? What are the data points that feed into that is it going to be attainable for a good amount of the sales organization? Put the same energy here so first piece is the business component and second piece is for every one person who’s speaking up. There are a dozen that are not i Two years ago I weighed 400 and 10 pounds. And I work at a company that professes disability equity inclusion, all of these components as being things that they care about and focus on. But I spent my entire time in our Chicago office with shin splints and leg cramps, because not a single chair was wide enough for me to sit in. And so I spent the entire almost three years I worked in that office perched on the edge of chairs. And, obviously, eight hours a day is a long amount of time to do work. When you go home, you want to disconnect for me, it wasn’t just eight hours a day of work, it was also eight hours of a calf workout, and a glute workout perchick, myself on the edge of tears. And I, for whatever reason, didn’t feel that I could speak up without it. So there’s also that component of it too, you think this vocal minority in your workplace or your event feedback Ford is or your online communities are experiencing this, but there are so many more people being impacted than just those who are. So those are the two major reasons I would say, Yeah, Spensive not to, and it impacts more people than you. Right, right. And I know that a lot of leaders say like, I I don’t know the best way to ask and find out because I feel like if I point out the differences, I’m shining, you know, I’m

Maria Ross  16:25

singling someone out, or I’m mixed, you know, or they get mad because they’re expecting them to speak for everyone who’s in that group. So they’re sort of caught between a rock and a hard place of I want to have these conversations, and I want to get input from these people that are impacted, these groups that are impacted. But I’m also offending people when I asked, so what would you say to a leader that’s caught between that rock and a hard place? What’s the best approach?

Dannie Lynn Fountain  16:52

Yeah, I have two answers here as well. First, we live in the information age, if you have a question, any search engine will return you millions of answers in less than a second, start there, but also pay people for their labor. I recently received an invitation to be on the Event Planning Committee for an event this fall. And the Event Planning Committee it was eight months of unpaid labor. And as much as I want this particular event to be more inclusive, actually, I filled out the previous year’s survey with a lots of feedback. I mean, I’ve a lot on my plate. And so what I did instead is I was like, Hey, I work in dei consulting, here are my fees for three different options of how I could help with three different price points. The event turns a profit has million billion dollar companies as sponsors, and it wasn’t a financial priority. That yeah, so much, instead of asking folks to be on voluntary committees, turning to your employee resource leadership group and using them as three consultants on these issues, nascent one, Hey, someone for their labor, because that that How

Maria Ross  18:11

will an even the investment, even the investment and ERGs as a strategic lever, because I think you would probably get more more reciprocity, from ERGs if they knew they were supported with budget for the initiatives that are important to them to do to put on events or Yeah, exactly. And so most companies have them as like, Oh, that’s a cute little volunteer organization. Instead of looking at an erg, I got this from Cynthia’s book, actually, looking at it at it as a strategic input to the business that you would invest in just like you would invest in a consultant, you would invest in outside experts to come in, you’ve got this group of employees that feel passionate about this topic, invest in that erg. And there’s some reciprocity there, right?

Dannie Lynn Fountain  18:59

Oh, yeah. Yeah. You think about retention, when you think about employment brand, when you think about these components, er, G’s are one of the single highest ROI activities a company can do. Even at billion dollar companies ERGs get like 510 $1,000 budgets a year, and the amount of retention that they turn around through employee community building the amount of calls that they take with potential candidates, convincing them to come to the Oh, yeah, if you invested just double what you are already investing in the ERP. Yeah, we see tremendous amount of change and grow. I love that.

Maria Ross  19:39

So let’s talk a little bit about intersectionality. Because I know that that is very important to you. What for folks that don’t know what do we mean in the DEI world by intersectionality? And how does it impact our D IB efforts?

Dannie Lynn Fountain  19:54

Intersectionality for a very, very, very basic definition is the holding of to Who are more marginalized identities. So, for every individual, let’s say it’s someone who identifies as biracial and queer, to marginalized identities, both of those identities individual individually influenced the way that someone experience says the world. But layered on top of each other can be doubly impactful. So when we talk about intersectionality, we’re talking about the way that we experience life, the way that we experience work changes through the addition of those lines is, so since we were just talking about employee resource groups, a great example of this is women focused employee resource groups tend to default to the white straight woman perspective. When you talk about a women employee resource group, there are women from Infinite backgrounds who may be members and have very different experiences, then that kind of North Star that most women identifying Employee Resource Groups gravitate toward. So intersectionality really is just taking a moment to recognize that layered identities add nuance, and then again, to use a business word, optimal using for like the best experience, creating experiences, that folks who hold multiple marginalized identities can thrive in. A great example of this at Google is the mixed Googlers employee resource group. It’s a employee resource group for mixed race employees. But it’s become so much more than that. The phrase mix has, frankly, become a celebration for folks from two religion household, folks from a variety of experiences where their intersectionality is mixed. And it’s just such a celebration of support for employees that doesn’t have to be single identity tied to just building that and can be so helpful.

Maria Ross  22:05

So talk to us a little bit about one of the identities you mentioned, which I’m always trying to talk about, especially in context of my son’s school, as I try to spend like year three trying to get a diversity, equity and inclusion group going there is to get them out of the mindset that it just means race discussions, right? It can be gender identity, and especially, especially among children neuro diversity. And you mentioned neuro diversity earlier, I’m a survivor of a of a ruptured brain aneurysm. So I have aspects of neurodiversity that I deal with, but I’ve only, I’ve only been, and I haven’t delved into this widely, but I was very struck when I took a behind the scenes tour at Airbnb years ago, that their whole office design is based on different working styles and neurodiversity. They’ve got pods for collaboration, they’ve got little, you know, little telephone booths for folks that need to be in complete quiet. They’ve got reconfigurable office furniture, so you can work however you need to work for that particular meeting or that particular project. And I was struck by the accommodation of multiple ways of thinking, multiple ways in which our brains work, and how it is such an important aspect of our ability to perform well, which again, impacts the company’s bottom line. So do you see some examples of companies that are accounting for neurodiversity? And how are they doing it?

Dannie Lynn Fountain  23:36

Yeah, I think so. Um, three things that you mentioned first, bit children’s faces are one of the most inclusive for neurodiversity. At the moment, which is wild. There’s been previously many neurodivergent identities were found to be in children, and it was believed that they couldn’t like manifests later in life. So an adult diagnosis was just out of the question. So it’s not only B, this is something that was built for children first, and we’re very still stuck in that mindset. But also, so much of what we think as accommodation, we think of as needing to be this rigorous process full of bureaucracy that requires form submissions, and Doctor supporting evidence, when really, it’s actually quite simple. Yeah. So thinking about folks who identify with ADHD are are clues on like myself, feedback and writing, feedback in writing in advance of a meeting. That’s not hard. Hopefully, like as a manager, you’re prepping for a meeting anyway. So giving me 30 minutes an hour a day, to internalize the feedback that you want to provide before we chat about it. Not super hard. Like you’re saying the different ways to operate like the open floor plan workspace.

Maria Ross  24:56

Oh, it does my head and I can’t. I can’t Yeah,

Dannie Lynn Fountain  24:59

yeah. Noise Cancelling Headphones are not the like Halo inducing. So

Maria Ross  25:05

because it’s visual, it’s visual stimulation as well. And yeah, and this, this was profoundly a difference for me after my brain injury, I used to work in an open floor plan.com Back in, like 99 and 2000. And I thought it was rad. And then I remember, you know, I came back to San Francisco, I had been working in my own business for a while and this was post brain injury. I visited somebody actually, ironically, at a Google office. And I was like, oh my god, I’m in a war zone. Like I can’t. Uh, how how do you function in this? I just wouldn’t be able to do it.

Dannie Lynn Fountain  25:38

Oh, yeah. I used to my dad used to be right outside of n k and micro kitchen where Googlers can go get snack. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Maria Ross  25:47

Like, yes. seated near the bathroom on. Like, what? Yeah. But

Dannie Lynn Fountain  25:51

to your question of companies that are doing this Wow. controversial opinion here. It’s the remote first ones. It’s the companies that because parallel to all of this, we see remote first, as an accommodation or something that needs to be battled for or validated when there are swaths of our workforce who work better. And for those that don’t function well, so low, there are countless solutions, co working spaces, which most remote first companies provide co working stipends. Anyway, I’m co working spaces, coffee shops, excetera. So, in my opinion, remote first companies, remote parts, companies who also believe in asynchronous communication, let’s get Nish here, I heard the one that I think are doing the most service for not just neurodiverse, but all disabled individuals. Because so much of disability is invisible. We have this mindset of the wheelchair. Yeah, how much of disability is invisible, and remote first, not only accommodate warping style, but also accommodate? How much of myself do I show you. And I don’t just mean literally on a screen, like in a video call, I get to choose. I mean, and so many more ways than that. I mean, I can control if you see my text, or my stems, I can control if you my mute button on and off can control, forcing myself to think. So it’s not even just accommodations, it’s getting to control how much of myself I put out there to then until the rest of the world catches up, reduce the bias on me. And when I say on me, I mean, the disabled individual. So very long answer. But

Maria Ross  27:45

no, I think it’s an important point. Because if you really are after helping people do their best work, to Let’s Get Real, increase your revenues, right? attract more customers, do all the things that you want to do for the sake of your shareholder, then we shouldn’t be able to, and I hate even to say the word accommodate, because it sounds like you’re coddling somebody. But all we’re saying is let people do work in a way where they can do their best work. And when you apply, you will love the like the dividends that come from that?

Dannie Lynn Fountain  28:23

Oh, yeah, I think when you say the current working environment, accommodate the extroverted, or outgoing, or high functioning individual that really puts the word comedy into perspective. Because that’s, I mean, that’s the reality. That is

Maria Ross  28:42

the reality. Exactly. And you also end up not attracting the best talent for different roles when you do that, because you’re leaving out a huge part of the population. Whether you know, if you’re gonna say, Oh, I’m not gonna hire that person, because they’re autistic, or I’m not gonna hire that person, because they’re in a wheelchair, we don’t have wheelchair ramps, like, that’s how you get around it is to figure out creative solutions to create the workplace where that person who’s going to do the best job for you in that role

Dannie Lynn Fountain  29:09

can shine. And it’s really that practical. You don’t I mean, I know it really I’m preaching to the choir. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So

Maria Ross  29:19

I do want to talk about as we kind of wrap up here, I want to talk about something that you said that has stuck with me since our pre call. And you talked about the impact of COVID. And not just on remote work, hybrid work, you know, blurring the lines between personal and business, which is often the angle I’m coming at it from, but tell me your concern about COVID long term effects, especially as it relates to the EIB.

Dannie Lynn Fountain  29:49

So, pre COVID, approximately, one in four adults in the United States had some type of disability. And that’s a pretty high number I think the actual percent is like roughly 26%. However, COVID is very quickly being identified as a math disabling event, the largest disabling event in our history and on and on, largely due to bump while COVID. And by that it’s a not only the long term effects of actual COVID, some folks have persistent cough, some folks never regain their sense of taste. But the comorbidities that start to stack up of symptoms that can be directly traced back to COVID. If one in four Americans pre COVID, were disabled in some way. And we struggled in corporate America, and event spaces, etc, to, again, that word accommodate those with disabilities. And COVID-19 is a math disabling event that’s impacting millions. So that one in four, I’ve seen some stats predicted as high as one in two, once all of the data starts to settle. What are we going to do? We we are so resistant. Like that stat I mentioned previously, only 4% of companies consider disability currently in their diversity plans. And that’s just their diversity plans. That’s not hiring. That’s not HR in general. That’s not day to day job. That’s Yes. Right. Ei planning. What are we going to do when up to one in two Americans are disabled, it’s going to come to a head, there is going to be a crisis. And all of the disability advocates who long before I even open my mouth, were doing this work for years and years and years, are looking at corporate America. Like we told you was one in four not inox. And I am very wary and scared of how resistant corporate America event space is. Online communities even our too accommodating disability, it is terrifying.

Maria Ross  32:14

Well, I mean, I guess the optimistic viewpoint is that it’s going to be the forcing mechanism that’s required for transformation. There what you ought to be able to you won’t be able to deny it anymore. Because Oh, yeah, won’t be able to hire people anymore. Badly. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, the opposite is the glass half full woman to me is saying like, wow, if that’s what it takes, is that that punch in the face is what it takes to get you to wake up and realize that you have to do something about this, like, shame on you for waiting for so long. But you get to a point where you can’t sustain the status quo anymore. So it could be a good catalyst for change. Hopefully, not that I wish now that I wish mass disability on people, but Right, yeah,

Dannie Lynn Fountain  33:00

my hope, frankly, is for the rebrand of disability, again, we’re so focused on the wheelchair. And when even today, the majority of those who have disability would not associate with a wheelchair icon. That’s my hope is we can crack the entrenched perspective, that disability equals wheelchair.

Maria Ross  33:23

Well, you know, it’s, I’m just gonna get really vulnerable for a minute. After my brain injury, when I was sort of slowly I was recovering, and I was getting back to work and jumping in, you know, everyone, everyone, all my doctors were like, Wow, you’re so high functioning, you’re you’ve made this miraculous recovery. And I, at first was like, am I going to tell clients that this experience happened to me, because I don’t want them to think I’m going to be bad at my job, or that I will be able to do the work, they’re hiring me to do and, and even when I would go to rehab sessions, or work with groups at the hospital, they would refer to us as disabled. And I remember, it rubbed me the wrong way. Because I thought, well, I don’t, I don’t need help walking. I don’t need you know, so I fought against that own label because of my own bias of that label. Right. And it’s, I think it’s doing away with, you might be disabled, but it doesn’t mean you can’t do the work. It doesn’t mean you can’t do a fantastic job. It doesn’t mean you can’t thrive just because you have a disability. And so, again, the optimist in me is like, maybe unfortunately, that’s what it’s going to take is that the majority of us, so it’s not a minority of people anymore. So I don’t know, but big, big questions. So I love this conversation. I love the work that you’re doing. I hope everybody checks out your book ending checkbox diversity, which was published in the fall of last year, and we’re gonna have all your links in the show notes standing land, but for folks on the go or exercising right now, where’s the best place? they could find out more about your work or get in touch with you.

Dannie Lynn Fountain  35:03

Yeah, LinkedIn and Instagram at Danny Lynn founded on both for just constant content just got segues so much of what we’ve already talked about here. I love it.

Maria Ross  35:16

Can you give us one last golden nugget of advice for leaders, sort of taking a deep breath and going, Oh, my gosh, we’ve got a lot of work to do, what’s a good first step they can take?

Dannie Lynn Fountain  35:26

I think we have all become so focused on our limiting how much privilege we do or don’t have, that we’ve lost the focus of, let’s lift everyone up. I don’t care. If you believe that the identity that you called if you have or you don’t have privilege, that’s not the point. The point is, there are folks who are hurting. Let’s lift them up.

Maria Ross  35:58

I love it. Let’s end it right there. Thank you so much for being a guest today and sharing your insights. Thank you so much for having me. And thanks everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge. If you’re enjoying the podcast, you know what to do. Subscribe, follow share with friends or colleagues. And please leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

It’s 2023 – we had a major global pandemic, geopolitical upheaval, and market ups and downs. So how are we doing when it comes to making the workplace more empathetic and adapting to everything that’s hit us? For 8 years, Businessolver, a leader in benefits technology has conducted their State of Workplace Empathy Report. This report has come to be the gold standard in workplace empathy and leadership. And this year? Well, let’s just say we have some work to do. In some ways, we’ve gone backward, with a widening gap between what the C-Suite thinks about its culture and what HR and employees actually experience. Also, HR is burning out.  And as suspected, employees are craving flexibility as a key empathetic benefit.

Today, Rae Shanahan, who has supported the organic growth of Businessolver from 10 employees to 1500 employees, and I discuss the key findings 2023 State of Empathy Report, what it means for HR and C-suite leadership, where we can continue to be optimistic and push for change, and actionable ways you can close the Empathy Gap in your own organization, regardless of where you sit.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

• What is right for one person is not going to be right for another. As a company, understanding what is right for each of your employees, as an individual, is a way in which you can be empathetic. 
• 42% of employees feel their manager has the most impact on building a culture of empathy. More and more organizations are really focused on giving first-level managers training on empathy and caring. 
• Empathy is not about treating people the way you were treated. Gen Z is estimated to make up 27% of the workforce by 2025 and they bring completely new expectations to the workforce, around empathy, DEI, financial wellness, and flexibility.

“96% of employees say flexible working hours is the most empathetic benefit that an employer can offer. That’s something that doesn’t cost a lot, but you can get a lot of love from employees for offering it.” —  Rae Shanahan

Episode References:

2023 State of Workplace Empathy – 8th annual reportThe Empathy Edge Podcast – Rebecca Friese: How to Build a “Good” CultureNPR: Airbnb lets its workers live and work anywhere. Spoiler: They’re loving itAbout Rae Shanahan, Chief Strategy Officer, Businessolver

“Seasoned” executive supporting the organic growth of Businessolver from 10 employees to over 1500.  We live the “Businessolver Way” which means we have an intentional guide that defines our core values, core business, operation principles, our “safe” environment, and common language.  We spend each day training and applying the Businessolver way to grow and delight.

Connect with Rae Shanahan:

Businessolver: https://www.businessolver.com

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/raeshanahan

Don’t forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria: 

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work, to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. It’s 2023 we had a major global pandemic geopolitical upheaval and market ups and downs. So how are we doing when it comes to making the workplace more empathetic, and adapting to everything that’s hit us. For eight years business solver, a leader in benefits technology has conducted their state of workplace empathy report. This report has come to be the gold standard in workplace empathy, thought leadership. And this year, well, let’s just say we have some work to do. In some ways, we’ve gone backwards with a widening gap between what the C suite thinks about its culture, and what HR and employees actually experience. Also, HR is burning out, and as suspected, employees are craving flexibility as a key empathetic benefit. Today I talk with Ray Shanahan Chief Strategy Officer of business solver. She has supported the organic growth of the company from 10 employees to 1500. So she’s in the trenches as well as studying the trends. We discussed the key findings from this year’s report, what it means for HR and C suite leadership, where we can continue to be optimistic and push for change, and actionable ways you can close the empathy gap in your own organization, regardless of where you sit. Today’s talk is a goldmine of information on where we are now, and where we have yet to get. Take a listen. Welcome ray to the empathy edge podcast. I am so excited to have this conversation with you. Because way before we met, I knew who you were because I quoted and cited business solvers state of workplace empathy report, copiously in my book, The Empathy edge. And I know many other empathy experts have to You are the creator of what is come to be the seminal report on empathy in the workplace. So welcome to the empathy edge podcast. Oh, my,

Rae Shanahan  03:23

that is so fantastic. And

Maria Ross  03:24

I’m so much

Rae Shanahan  03:26

I can’t claim that I’m the creator. But I get to be the face of it today. How about that? You

Maria Ross  03:31

do I love it, the face and the voice. I love it. So tell us a little bit about your work as Chief Strategy Officer? And how did business solver come to do what is now their eighth annual State of workplace empathy report? What led to that? Yeah,

Rae Shanahan  03:48

you know, our vision is, how do we can we turn this? Because we’re benefits technology company? How can we turn employees engagement and their benefits from a once a year annual enrollment experience to a year round personalized journey so that people get into the right benefits at the right place at the right price at the right time. And so we were working with an advertising agency Edelman, and they do this really cool study called the Trust Barometer. And we said we want something to have thought leadership of something like the Trust Barometer. And they, they tested some ideas. And they came back to us and said, You know what, when we think about what your vision is about the right benefits, right place, right time, we thought about empathy, because the definition of right is really something that you can think about from an empathy perspective, because what’s right for me can be completely different to what’s right for you and what’s right for the next person. So kind of all gelled. And so yeah, this is our eighth year and it’s been really it’s been fun to see the name. It’s not our the we can’t take credit for it. But it’s so fun to see how empathy is in the vocabulary more than ever. Absolutely. And

Maria Ross  04:57

you know, listeners have heard me talk about When I started researching the book, back in 2016 2017, agents didn’t understand it. They thought, is this a business book or a personal development book? What is it? And I was like, No, it’s a business book. It’s about the role of empathy in business as a strategic advantage. And luckily, even though that wasn’t in the vernacular, at the time, your report existed, several years of your report had already existed. And there was ample research to show that, hey, this is a thing that is a valuable strategic advantage for companies. And so you were one of the earliest to be measuring it and having your finger on the pulse of what HR professionals and C suite executives think about empathy in the workplace, before we had a global pandemic, and now everyone is talking about this, right? So yay for you. So let’s talk about the eight years of the empathy study. Because I know back a few years ago, I was putting together the book and citing the report, and even mentioning you in talks that I give the trends we’re going in the upward direction of in terms of how CEOs viewed empathy as a driver of financial performance, in terms of how people rated their willingness to work harder, quote, unquote, or longer hours or, and I hate to give the stat but for less pay for an empathetic leader or organization. So tell us what are some of the headline findings from this year’s report, given what we’ve gone through the last few years.

Rae Shanahan  06:29

And, you know, there’s several and I know you’re going to share empathy study too. But you know, I picked out three that I think are the really key ones that I’d like to spend time on today. So number one, empathy levels fall as employers push for return to office, that flexibility tops the list of most empathetic benefits, but our executives listening, and number three, a great divide is emerging as HR professionals are burned out.

Maria Ross  06:54

Hmm. Okay, so let’s tackle those one by one, let’s talk a little bit about empathy dropping as Return to Work starts to become more of a thing as a return to office, I should say not return to work, because we never left work, we left the office. Right.

Rae Shanahan  07:09

Right. Right. And to your point earlier, yeah, the studies were moving in the right direction. And this is the first year that we’ve, you know, and of course, everybody really jumped on empathy during the pandemic, especially the early months. And we started to see a few trends last year, but I’ll say this year is really when I think the things we’re just getting to really are really separating about between employees, HR and CEO. So I’m gonna read off a couple of stats. So approximately 49% of remote eligible us employees returned to the office in 2022, at least part time. And our empathy data this year, reveals that all audiences are working remotely considerably less than last year with 84% of employee saying some in person work is required up drastically from 33% in 2022. And it’s what we’re hearing is, people are not, leaders and organizations aren’t listening, and they don’t have a good pulse on what really matters to those employees. I’ll give you an example. You continue to read about how the CEOs and I don’t want to do any CEO bashing, I happen to be married to a CEO.

Maria Ross  08:17

But as a safe space for them, it’s fine. But

Rae Shanahan  08:20

it’s so much of this bias that you have to be in person in the office to be able to have opportunity, and who are the people being impacted. It’s predominantly going to be women and people that are in diversity kinds of situations D IB, and that’s wrong. And our findings this year really found that gap and forcing people into the office.

Maria Ross  08:44

Is that really better for business? Right? Right. Well, I mean, that’s the whole misunderstanding of what culture actually is. And if you are relying on your four walls for culture, you are doing yourself a disservice. Because that’s culture is really how work gets done, according to my good friend and a previous guest Rebecca Frese of Flynn consulting, who I can link to her episode in the show notes. But there is a lot of, there are a lot of narratives out there around the fact that we can’t collaborate as well, if you’re not holding the office together, and you can’t innovate as well. And while I as an extrovert, totally understand that there’s value in being together, I do miss being around people. I mean, I’ve worked from home actually, since I launched my business, but even my husband who loves working from home, does like going into the office every now and then and just having those serendipitous interactions with people. But when we get leaders saying that that’s the only way to innovate. That’s the only way to maintain culture. That’s the only way to be creative. Look at all the innovation and creativity. We had the last few years that everybody’s been working from home, right? They made it work. So I have this like, push pull with myself and then just recently heard about, you know, with a lot of downtown’s getting vacated stores closing because there’s no workers coming into the office, especially in San Francisco. though a lot of it is being blamed on return to work, and from that perspective, I’m like, okay, I get that I get that, like there’s small businesses closing because they no longer have a customer base. And is it the responsibility of the larger tech employers to bring people back downtown to bring people back into the office? So it’s hard. I’m almost like, over empathetic about every side story. So given that, what’s your perspective on that whole return to work? perspective?

Rae Shanahan  10:29

You know, I think a couple of things and empathy is not treating others how you were treated, and keeping an open mind. And there’s this concept that I think I read about from Malcolm Gladwell about holding your ideas lightly. And what I take out of some of this force return to work is that because I grew up in a time where I had to be in the office, I had to work all the extra hours. I mean, I know my first professional job, I could work, whatever hours I wanted to as long as it was, you know, before eight and after five. Right. And it’s easy, some of us as leaders, and we think about leaders, and many of these organizations are more in the image, what am I a Gen X, the Forgotten generation and power? Yeah. So many of us, we grew up in a very strict kind of working time, the only way you could work was being in the office. And I think sometimes even without doing it intentionally, we sometimes see leaders push upon other people. And some of these decisions about return to work are really tied to what they experienced. And it was like the rite of passage,

Maria Ross  11:34

right, and also what they’re comfortable with, right? So if you’re only comfortable leading in an environment where you can see people every day, and if you haven’t mastered the art of adapting to remote working, then yeah, I’m sure it’s more comfortable for you, as a leader to go, No, I want everybody back, I want to fall back on what I’m comfortable with.

Rae Shanahan  11:53

It makes me feel good makes me feel good and opposite of empathy, supposed to be about what’s good for the other person. And you’re the other thing I’d add on to that Maria is that so much of empathy is around building trust. And if you think about these required, return to work, mandates, so to speak, that are going on, that’s basically saying I don’t trust you. And in today’s modern world of the technology and all the tools, and I’m sitting here with two iPads to screens, my phone, right, that in this day and age that why can’t trust the first. And then let’s deal with the outliers. We don’t need to penalize everybody, because we think that there’s a productivity last, let’s deal with the outliers. And let’s use our technology to identify if people truly aren’t productive, then let’s have a conversation about that. But so many times, we try to enforce the rules on everyone, instead of just doing the right thing, which is let’s focus on people that maybe remote work isn’t the right thing for them. And then let’s help them find another opportunity rather than change it for everybody. Right?

Maria Ross  12:58

And there was an executive I talked to you as I was researching my new book, who actually verbalized very well, one of the reasons he does like having his team in the office, but he would never force them all back. It’s just he’s like, I like that I don’t have to schedule those connection times that you do have to do when you do a video. He’s like, so I know, I can walk past someone’s desk, and I can see if someone’s looking down or I can see if someone’s looking stressed. And I was like, Okay, that’s a valid reason. But the whole, like, we can’t innovate if we’re not together. It’s just BS. Oh, I

Rae Shanahan  13:27

totally agree. And you know, what I’ve heard, I had a real employee retire that had been with us for quite a while she started two weeks after I did so she’d been there 23 years. And we had a little event for and a number of the employees that were at our headquarters in Des Moines came in and I don’t know how many of them came up and just chatted with me in a way that when I had been in the office, and you know, had been that intimidating executive in the office, that I think they felt like they couldn’t as easily connect with me. And, you know, John, and I, you know, we talked about culture. But John, and I’ve made a concerted effort every Monday morning at 830 Central, which means when I’m out here in Scottsdale at 630, Pacific Time, we do a 30 minute broadcast to the whole organization, and live and we talk about what’s going on in the business. And what I’ve continued to hear over and over and over from employees is it helps them feel comfortable with us, they feel like they know us. And so I think you can still make very strong connections and in some ways level the playing field for people and opportunities because that disabled person having trouble getting into the office in their wheelchair, they are able to show up the same way and not be judged. So I don’t know if you can tell I have some some opinions on that.

Maria Ross  14:41

I love it. No, I love it. So what else did the report find around flexibility? Because that’s actually a great lead in to understanding what enables us to be flexible for the needs of different people and not necessarily you know, I hate the way people use the air quotes around the word accommodate and roll their eyes like we need to occur. imitate our employees now, how about your accommodating employees so they can do their most productive and most innovative work for you creating an environment where they feel safe, they feel supported. They feel like they don’t have to experience micro aggressions if they don’t want to. And they can actually perform. So what’s going on with the flexibility highlight that

Rae Shanahan  15:20

you talked about? Yeah, you’re right, that does. Many people that are in our like, benefits administrative, like you think about are the senior Benefits Administrator, they say HR, they have a very narrow focus because of their knowledge, what their knowledge share is that they have a very narrow sense of what benefits are. And what we explored in this year’s report is, let’s really talk about expanding the definition of benefits. And when we had medical, you know, health care benefits, and we had other types of benefits, and then we said remote work or flexible work hours that came back as the number one. So 96% of employees say flexible working hours is the most empathetic benefit that an employer can offer. So here it is, that’s something that doesn’t cost a lot. But you can get a lot of love from the employees for offering it. Right. Right. I love that.

Maria Ross  16:13

And did anything find that there were differing levels of acceptance of flexibility? Because I know you segment between if you’re talking to C suite people, if you’re talking to HR professionals, or you’re talking to employees, and we should mention you’re talking to 1000s of people across different geographies. Yes. Yes, yes. So did anything strike you as being a difference in perceived flexibility across those different groups?

Rae Shanahan  16:37

Yeah, there was definitely a separation and a gap in that I think that there was a 20% or 20 point gap between what CEOs saw and what employees saw. And you know, a couple of those employees viewed benefits. As I said, 96% of them viewed having flexible work hours is the most important benefit, but only 39% of them responded that that was available. Okay. So that’s a pretty, you know, there’s a great opportunity there to make up that gap.

Maria Ross  17:05

Okay. And before we go into the last one about HR pros are suffering right now was your other big takeaway. You had mentioned to me offline, some pretty big deltas in perception between CEOs and the people on the ground? What’s actually going on? Can you share a little bit about those kind of shocking deltas around mental health support? I mean, all the things there were there was maybe like two or three. But if you can mention a couple of those, I think that would be really important for the audience to hear,

Rae Shanahan  17:35

Sir. Sir. I think some of the biggest gaps are really around something that I’m trying to find the right term, something called optimism bias. So what we’re finding in the data is, words the optimism bubble. So it’s, as you get more senior, you overestimate the degree to which other people are speaking up, you overestimate your approachability, and you overestimate your listening skills. And that’ll means that you underestimate the strength of feeling that might exist with some of your employees. And that’s a woman by the name of Megan writes, who’s an executive coach and speaker. And I feel like that’s what’s what we’re really starting to see in this data point where we see a 24 point gap. So 92% of CEOs view their HR professionals as empathetic. 20 sets up 27 points from 2022,

Maria Ross  18:24

right, because they put a tunnel or plate. Yeah.

Rae Shanahan  18:26

So empathetic, and then 91% of CEOs view their employees as empathetic. But the other way that 32 point gap is the employee seeing their CEOs is empathetic is a 32 point gap. And 90% of CEOs say they are more motivated than ever. So they’re out there saying that our organization is empathetic, but then they’re not then they’re requiring people to return to work and not trusting them. So it’s a battle right now.

Maria Ross  18:56

Right, right. And there’s also like, some big deltas between how HR perceives the C suite and how the C suite proceed. As you mentioned, the C suite perceives HR and I would assume a lot of that is from because the C suites had to rely on HR a lot the last few years. And so of course, they’re seeing them deal with all of these crises. And of course, they’re gonna go, they’re great. They’re handling it. They’re awesome. We love them. They’re the ones delivering all the bad news. And, you know, having to defend these policies they don’t agree with that we’re creating. But yeah, we love them. They’re great. And then meanwhile, it sounds like HR is thinking, Oh, you think you’re really empathetic as a C suite leader, but actually, the employees don’t think you are and we don’t think you are either. You know what I mean? So there’s a big disconnect in perception. And I would be curious, I know this is out of the purview of this study, but I’d be curious around what other vectors that gap in perception exists for, you know, around humility or around performance or around open mindedness or whatever. Whatever the Actor is because you do get in this bubble as you graduate up through the C suite of you’re in this kind of cushion, little bubble and you don’t always have your ear to the ground at all times.

Rae Shanahan  20:10

Yes. Again, how is that whole concept of holding your ideas lightly, just because you have an opinion, or you have witnessed one thing, you know, that may not apply and being open and being in listening, I think is the number one thing and making it Okay, as a leader that it’s okay to change your mind. You know, one of the most powerful things that happened, I think, in our organization, during the beginning of COVID, is, I’ll tell you what, we were not a work from home organization. Prior to COVID. We had mostly salespeople and some of our clients services people throughout the country, but of our 1000 employees at the time of COVID, we probably had less than 100 working remotely. And that was driven a lot by our CEO. He was adamant that you needed to be in the office, he was adamant that he needed to see people he was adamant that touching and experiencing those interactions was super important. And I mean, he’s a great example of the concept of holding your ideas lightly and saying, You know what I’ve been presented with data. So I can make a data informed opinion, so to speak, because you know, you can change, you can make stories out of data. But that, you know, he listened and said, I hear you loud and clear, we’ve been able to hire a more diverse workforce, we’ve been able to have higher engagement rates, our client retention has gone up, our quality of our calls and our service center have gone up. And he said, Well, I’m not going to make people go back into work, even though we just spent, I think about $3 million renovating a Denver office, it was just getting done as COVID as we went home. But again, he said, just because I put all that time and energy and money into that, that’s a sunk cost. Let’s do the right thing for the business. Let’s do the right thing for our clients. And let’s do the right thing for employees. And, you know, at least get once a week get a message from an employee that is so grateful that we support their being able to see their kids in the morning. And you know, one person said, I get to have breakfast with my kids. And I’m still to work before I would normally have been to work when I was commuting.

Maria Ross  22:08

Yeah. Oh my gosh, I’m getting chills listening to that story of your CEO. And I love that it’s just about your company, too. But that reminds me of a report I heard recently on NPR. And I’ll put a link in the show notes about the success Airbnb has had with completely flipping their model and not requiring people to be back in the office. And one of the big things cited by the companies that are embracing it is how much they were able to diversify their workforce by finding people, number one that never maybe would have applied. And I know that their state regulations for different companies where they can’t necessarily employ people in different states, right from a legal perspective. But when they can, they’re finding the right candidates for the job. And it doesn’t matter if it’s someone who can come into an office or not, it doesn’t matter if that person needs to be home for childcare, eldercare, or is disabled and can’t make it into a non ADA compliant office situation. They’re able to tap into talent that they’ve never been able to tap into before. And that’s what a lot of these companies, that’s the first thing that suffers when they do these return to Office blanket mandates that don’t factor in all these different needs. And you know, the air quote, accommodations that people say. So, as you kind of look ahead and you pick up from this report, you know, you’ve talked a little bit about some of the highlights and the findings, what would be from a now and looking into the future? What are some areas of concern that you see brewing on the horizon? But also, what are some areas of optimism? Where are some bright spots? And what you found in the report this year? Sure, sure.

Rae Shanahan  23:43

I’ll start with the bright spots. Something that I’m starting to do a lot more reading about is really, yes, we have the CEO. And yes, we have the empathy at the HR level. But we’re also finding, I think one of the stats was 42% of employees feel their manager has the most impact on building a culture of empathy. And that’s the first time that that started to emerge. And I’m hearing about more and more organizations that are really focused on helping that first level manager really having some training on caring and empathy. That’s something very, very optimistic. That’s great.

Maria Ross  24:19

I mean, and that’s the work I love to do is going into organizations and helping train managers and new managers on building that muscle building that skill, because it doesn’t come. It’s an innate biological skill, but it doesn’t come easy for everybody because that muscle may have atrophied because of family or because of past job experiences or life or whatever. And so being able to be in a space where they know that that’s actually a skill that’s going to get them promoted, going to get them rewarded, going to help them perform better, is sort of a big sigh of relief for a lot of managers that actually, were going to work in the past and not aligning their values with how they showed up at work. And now they’re like, oh, I don’t have to be this jerk at work. get stuff done, I can actually be more empathetic, be a better listener care about my people, and just knock my goals out of the park. So I love that and talking about that idea of like a micro culture, a micro team within what could be maybe a very bureaucratic organization, you don’t want to wait for the CEO to decide that the organization is going to be fine. Right? Yeah. So I love that it’s very much it’s about your immediate team and what they can do and what kind of model they can be for the rest of

Rae Shanahan  25:30

the organization. No, I love that Maria. And I’ll just pile on to that a little bit. Because, you know, there’s the studies and whether you believe it completely or not, that employees leave their manager, not always their employer. And out of the studies. And out of this conversation, I want actionable things that people can take and start working on right away. And that’s the place where, regardless of what level a person is in, they can start to make a difference in their organization. I think I’m going to name this exercise the snowball. But so an example of an exercise that I brought into the organization a couple years ago, and we’re doing it at different levels now is every time we have a planning meeting, well, I have everybody on my team. And again, this goes in other places, they all need to come and share a story about somebody that they hadn’t worked with before in the organization, and or somebody that doesn’t work in there or part of their team, but they’ve been impressed with. And then we go around, and we talk about them. And then we assigned someone to send a note to a person saying, Hey, I was just in a meeting. And Maria said, You did an awesome job in the call with the client, I just wanted to pass on that we talked about you and are really thankful for you. And why I call it snowball is because that’s something that it just keeps going. And that fuels that feeling of people want to matter. They want to feel connected to their organization, they want to feel like the stuff that they’re doing is making an impact. And so finding small opportunities with specific examples is a way that a person can start to bring empathy into an organization immediately,

Maria Ross  27:01

right, right after this podcast. I love it. Yeah, actually, that’s a great segue into I wanted to know, what are some actionable steps based on the data that you saw. And based on what you see with clients every day, and the models that your organization has shown? What are one or two other actionable steps that companies or leaders or even colleague to colleague, we can do to close that empathy gap and close that misperception between different groups in the organization, different levels within the organization,

Rae Shanahan  27:30

as well. And I didn’t only talk about what I was optimistic about. So I’ll wrap the things that I was concerned about with this. At the same time, so the thing that I’m really concerned about is the impact that this is having on HR, and seeing this dramatic gap between what HR, you know, what they feel and what they believe in their likeliness to leave an organization. And I think it starts with things that you do Maria is some organizations need to have a third party come in and be a mediator. And the CEOs that are vulnerable enough to say I need help are the perfect ones that are going to be able to make a difference. And by stopping and listening and setting aside ego to repair this, I think is extremely important, because those HR leaders just feel stuck. They had to do the heavy lifting during getting out of the office. And now they’re having to do the heavy lifting to bring everybody into the office. Again, I don’t want to make it just about the office. But that’s a pretty big rift right now is

Maria Ross  28:28

a flashpoint. Yeah, it

Rae Shanahan  28:29

is it really a flashpoint but bringing in somebody that can help mediate and moderate a conversation is, I think extremely important at this point in time. Well, I’m part of

Maria Ross  28:39

what makes people dig in their heels to on any policies that they don’t feel heard, and being heard and still implementing the policy can still go a long way. Yes, absolutely. At least you know that someone was listening and understands. And now I can explain why we’re doing this policy, we can have a conversation about why what’s going on? Yeah, and what’s going on with the business and what’s going on in the market and the economy that might make whatever the decision, the controversial decision is understandable to someone going, Oh, okay. I don’t like it. But I understand why the business is cracking this decision.

Rae Shanahan  29:13

And then there’s acknowledgement and acceptance and people can move on. But if we don’t if we’re not adults, and don’t have open dialogue and sharing the reasons why then this gap is going to is definitely going to continue.

Maria Ross  29:27

Right, right. I just have this image of you know, certain groups just running around with fingers in their ears going lalalalala we’re awesome. Everything is fine.

Rae Shanahan  29:36

Back to that optimism

Maria Ross  29:37

bubble. Yes, exactly. But I am glad to hear that. You know, there is optimism around Well, I mean, for me, the optimism always is that the incoming talent generations are still going to be part of changing the game. What’s happening now I feel like this backlash to boss ism, because of people going back to models they’re comfortable with. They were willing to sort of adapt adapt, and pivot and be resilient and try new things. And now they’re like, Okay, I don’t have to do that anymore.

Rae Shanahan  30:06

I can go back to what I know and I feel comfortable in. And then that goes back to what I, you know, kind of started with is, is that empathy is not about treating people the way you were treated. Right? It’s because just because those are that’s the the muscle memory break out of that, because here’s the reality, right? The generational shift that’s coming, because Gen Z is estimated to make up what 27% of the workforce by 2025. And they bring completely new expectations to the workforce, around empathy, dei financial wellness, flexibility as being paramount. And that’s just going to put more pressure on HR teams, and the new expectations for benefits aside from the traditional benefits,

Maria Ross  30:47

right? Absolutely. What I love it, and I love this work that you do every year on this report. It’s so thoughtful and so intentional, and it’s it does so much good for so many different organizations and leaders. So thank you can’t wait for the next one for 2024. But for now, we will celebrate 2023 We will have all the links to you and to business solver in the show notes and especially the link to the report where people can access the executive summary and all the goodness but for folks that are listening while they’re working out right now, can you tell us maybe the best place to find out more about you or your work?

Rae Shanahan  31:22

Sure, sure. LinkedIn for me LinkedIn for business solver as well. And then, you know, our website is business solver.com two s’s in the middle. Yes, business solver. named the company with three S’s in there, that was not his best, his best idea to have only the two

Maria Ross  31:39

I was gonna say as a brand strategist, but I decided to bite my tongue. But anyway, it’s a good conversation. So Ray, thank you so much for sharing your insights. I am so happy that we connected and I can’t wait to collaborate with you more on this very valuable topic. Absolutely. Thank you, Maria. And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a colleague or friend. And until next time, please remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.