Join this deep conversation about what empathy really looks like in our institutions, our communities, and our leadership—especially at a time when empathy feels both urgent and under pressure.
Dr. Terri Givens has been doing this work long before it became a headline or a corporate initiative. Terri is a Professor of Political Science at the University of British Columbia, and from 2021 to 2024, she served as the Provost’s Advisor on the Strategy to Address Anti-Black Racism at McGill University. She is the former CEO of the Center for Higher Education Leadership and has partnered with colleges, universities, and ed-tech companies to drive innovation, equity, and excellence in higher education.
Terri is the author of the new book, Reckoning: Creating Positive Change through Radical Empathy, as well as her past book, Radical Empathy: Finding a Path to Bridging Racial Divides. Her new book takes her work even further into how individuals and institutions can confront history and move toward meaningful change.
Terri shares stories of early work at IBM, Intel, and L’Oréal Canada that both strengthened culture and moved the bottom line. She also speaks about her collaboration with the Menlo Park Police Department, where empathy became a practical tool for healing divides, improving communication, and synthesizing multiple perspectives across the city council, police, and the community. Terri shows us that empathy isn’t a buzzword, a trend, or a “nice to have” in today’s polarized world—it’s a leadership competency, a community-building tool, and a catalyst for true connection and accountability.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Listen in for…
- Where we actually are today in our quest for empathetic leadership and more human social systems, what’s shifted since her first book, and what still needs to be done.
- The essential role empathy plays in DEIB and race relations, and why DEI is not some new concept from 2020.
- Real tactical guidance for how to create brave and safe spaces in your team or community.
“Creating a brave and safe space was really important so that we weren’t just attacking what the police were doing. It had to be an environment where we were trying to uplift rather than tear down.” — Terri Givens
Episode References:
- The Empathy Edge Podcast: Terri Givens: Radical Empathy to Bridge Racial Divides
About Terri Givens, Professor and Author of Reckoning and Radical Empathy
Terri Givens is a Professor of Political Science at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. She was the Provost’s Advisor on the Strategy to Address Anti-Black Racism at McGill University from 2021 to 2024. She is formerly the CEO of the Center for Higher Education Leadership and has worked with a variety of colleges, universities, and ed tech companies on issues related to innovation and excellence in higher education. As the author of the new book Reckoning and past book, Radical Empathy, she is a sought-after consultant and speaker on issues related to leadership and inclusion. She has more than 30 years of experience in higher education, politics, international affairs, and nonprofits. She is an accomplished speaker and uses her platform to develop leaders with an understanding of the importance of diversity and inclusion, while encouraging personal growth through empathy.
Connect with Terri:
Givens Consulting: terrigivens.com
Book: Reckoning: terrigivens.com/reckoning
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/terrigivens
Facebook: facebook.com/Terri.Givens64
Instagram: @tgivens64
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books: Red-Slice.com/books
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Courses! Leading with Empathy and Balancing Empathy, Accountability, and Results as a Leader
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Maria Ross 00:04
welcome to the Empathy Edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator, and empathy advocate, and here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Today’s episode invites us into a deeper conversation about what empathy really looks like in our institutions, our communities, and our leadership, especially at a time when empathy feels both urgent and under pressure. My guest, Dr. Terry Givens has been doing this work long before it became a headline or a corporate initiative. Terry is a professor of political science at the University of British Columbia, and from 2021 to 2024 she served as the provost’s advisor on the strategy to address anti-black racism at McGill University. She’s the former CEO of the Center for Higher Education Leadership, and has partnered with colleges, universities, and ed tech companies to drive innovation, equity, and excellence in higher education. Terry brings more than 30 years of experience across higher ed, politics, international affairs, and nonprofits. You may recall her previous interview when she spoke about her last book, Radical Empathy: Finding a Path to Bridging Racial Divides, and today she’s here to discuss her newest book, Reckoning, which takes her work even further into how individuals and institutions can confront history and move forward towards meaningful change. She’s a sought-after speaker and consultant known for developing leaders who understand the importance of diversity and inclusion while grounding their personal growth in empathy and courageous self-reflection. Today we explore where we actually are in our quest for empathetic leadership and more human social systems. Basically, what’s shifted since radical empathy came out, and what still needs to be worked on, the essential role empathy plays in DEIB and race relations, and why DEI is not some new concept from 2020 Terry shares stories of early work at IBM, Intel, and L’Oreal Canada that both strengthened culture and moved the bottom line, she’ll talk about her collaboration with the Menlo Park Police Department, where empathy became a practical tool for healing divides, improving communication, and synthesizing multiple perspectives across the city council, police, and the community, and my favorite, she gives real tactical guidance for how to create brave and safe spaces in your team or community. This conversation is expansive and grounding all at once. Terry shows us that empathy isn’t a buzzword or trend or a nice to have in today’s polarized world. It’s a leadership competency, a community building tool, and a catalyst for true connection and accountability. You will love today’s episode. Take a listen. Welcome once again, Terry Givens to the Empathy Edge Podcast. I’m so glad to have you here to talk about your second book, well, not your second total book, but your second book in the Empathy series, Reckoning: Creating Positive Change through radical empathy. I have my copy right here for folks. I hope they will check it out. But welcome back to the show.
Terri Givens 03:47
Well, thanks for having me.
Maria Ross 03:49
I love it. We were just talking about how we see each other’s work all the time in social, and I kind of feel like you’re on my team. I hope you feel like I’m on your team 100% We’re out there against the headwinds right now, trying to be the voice in the wind. So, give us a little refresher on your story and how you got to the work that you’re doing and what you’re doing now.
Terri Givens 04:12
Yes, I am currently a professor of political science at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, but I started this.. well, I feel like this work has been going, you know, my entire life. You know, I grew up in Spokane, Washington, that place that was less than 1% black, and you know, the struggles my parents had, and you know, my mother being from Louisiana, my father from Pittsburgh, but you know, both with ties to the South, and how they were part of the great migration, and you know, really just a really this work starts with my family, right? And how I grew up, and how we dealt with things like internalized discrimination, etc. And so really I got into the empathy component of it when I was trying to understand my own. Bias right, and that’s how I really dug into how do we deal with these issues, because we’ve had leaders and so on over the years, but I really think it’s something that starts with each of us as individuals. We have to deal with our own bias, we have to develop empathy, empathy, as you know very well, it’s a practice, it’s not something that comes naturally. We have to really, and so for me it was, how do we create change in a world that’s struggling with division and trying to understand how we move forward, and so it really began with myself and understanding how do you then turn around and have empathy for others, and really set up a situation where we can, you know, create change and build trust.
Maria Ross 05:47
I love that, and I love that, you know, in your previous book about empathy, radical empathy, you do share a lot of your personal story, which I think brings a lot of texture to it, in addition to your academic and research background in political science and immigration patterns in race relations, and all of the work that you’ve studied and spoken to so many experts about, so you really present a very well-rounded picture, and yet also present that humanized story of this is how lack of empathy has impacted my life and my story. So I appreciate you being vulnerable with us in your books and sharing that. It also just makes them more interesting, right, to read the stories. So I want to talk quickly about since that last book and Radical Empathy. I will link to your episode we recorded on that previously a few years ago. Where do you think we are? You know, you now you’ve written Reckoning. Where do you think we are in the quest for empathetic leadership and empathy writ large in our society and our interactions with each other? What sort of changed for you since the first book?
Terri Givens 06:54
Well, since the first book, it’s just we’ve seen kind of this blowback, this pushback against empathy and against things like DEI, and so on, and I think that’s a response to the fact that actually we were having some success, you know, it’s like you have this situation where people are seeing progress, and that’s when you get the blowback, and so that’s why I wanted to make sure that we talk about things that actually have happened that have created better opportunities for people, you know, from the political side, from, you know, nonprofits to all the different ways we as individuals and organizations can continue to make progress in creating change, and when I say change, I mean basically creating an environment where all of us have the opportunity to succeed, right? And that’s why I don’t necessarily even focus on DEI so much, but the fact that when we do this work, it lifts all boats,
Maria Ross 07:55
absolutely. And you know, you can tackle that inequity and inclusion challenge from a lot of different angles, so what makes empathy so central to the work that you’re doing, based on the research that you’ve done, is that sort of the fuel,
Terri Givens 08:09
yes,
Maria Ross 08:09
that’s injected across all of
Terri Givens 08:12
it, 100% So I really spent a lot of time trying to understand what our thing, how do we create change, right? I read different books, I looked at different situations, and what really struck me is that empathy is really at the core of it, because you know it’s funny, I think people think empathy is being nice to people, and no, empathy is being able to make that connection, you know, even when you’re dealing with an enemy, right? If you have empathy and can say, oh, let me see if I can figure out where this person is coming from
Maria Ross 08:44
exactly,
Terri Givens 08:45
right, and so, as my friend Greg Sattell, I always mention him because he’s the one who emphasized this for me, empathy is not absolution,
Maria Ross 08:54
no,
Terri Givens 08:54
right, and I know actually I use your material all the time in my talks because you know people think that, oh, well, you know, I just have to be the nice leader, and you know, we want to be effective leaders, right? We want to be inclusive, and we want to make sure that we’re creating a good environment, but that doesn’t mean you let people slide when they’re doing things wrong,
Maria Ross 09:14
exactly. Yeah, accountability is such a part of it, because that’s also providing the structures and setting expectations is empathetic, people within organizations want to know where they are and how they’re doing and where they’re going to go, and to your point, it’s I think niceness gets in the way of, well, niceness is I don’t want to rock any boats and I don’t want to upset anyone, I want to make the perfect decision that everyone’s going to be happy with, which is impossible, that’s like an impossible quest to go on, and so really understanding that empathy has a place in connecting with someone as a human being, but also making tough decisions when you need to for the greater good, right, whether the greater good is the organization’s health or the greater. It is the teams thriving, whatever it is, it’s being able to make those decisions in a human way with connection, and that’s
Terri Givens 10:08
right.
Maria Ross 10:08
To your point, you know, I’ve always said empathy is about connection, not coercion. It doesn’t mean we submit, it doesn’t mean we acquiesce, it doesn’t even mean we have to agree. So I want to talk a little bit, because there’s.. I love the different angles in the book that you talk about. Can you kind of break down reckoning and, like, why you created those sections the way you did? Because I think it’s a really great roadmap into how you’re walking us through where empathy weaves in and out all of all of these things we’re talking about.
Terri Givens 10:38
Absolutely, and it comes from a lot of the work I’ve done, but also looking at work others have done, right. So it starts with the, you know, at the individual level. So, what can I, as an individual, do as a leader or as somebody who plays a role just day to day, right? And me have so many people, and part of the motivation for this book was so many people were coming to me after my talks on radical empathy. Well, how do I, you know, do this work? And I, you don’t have the, I mean, starting from the international level, you know, which is where I end the book. You know, you don’t have to be out there, you know, working with the UN, and so on. Well, that’s, but some people are doing that. I thought, you know, I’ve done that work myself. Yeah, so at the international level, but we start with the individual level and say, what can I do, you know, on a day-to-day basis. And then we work up to organizations, what are corporations doing, what are nonprofits doing, what are universities doing? I spend a lot, you know, I’m somebody who works in university, I spend a big check of time talking about what I, as an individual, but also what organizations have done, so it’s I talk about the fact that it’s top down and bottom up, and a lot of the work I’ve done has been at that intersection of having support from the people at the top, but also working with the, you know, kind of the grassroots people building up from the bottom, so as individual, if we are making those demands, and to these organizations, so even working with my local police department and the city council,
Maria Ross 12:09
yes,
Terri Givens 12:10
you know, yeah,
Maria Ross 12:11
we’re going to talk about all that for sure,
Terri Givens 12:13
so all of those things, empathy plays a key role in allowing people to see what is the what are what do I need to do to help this person, or what do I need to do to understand how I can create some change that is going to really, you know, influence people in, you know, people’s lives, where I live, or beyond?
Maria Ross 12:34
Exactly. And I love how you delve into all these areas, you delve into sort of societal race relations, you delve into academia, you delve into organizational culture. So, let’s talk about a few of the examples that stood out for me reading your book. I’m going to put my glasses on here. So, you mentioned your colleague and friend, sociologist Jean Beeman, or am I pronouncing that correctly? Okay, great. And in an article, she was talking about some work they did in France, she or he, she, she, okay, great. She had, she wrote this in an article about her experience with race relations in France, and I want to read this to folks, because I think this is really important, and this is something we, in our country, need to think about right now. Right, being French is supposed to supersede any other identification, be it linguistic, religious, or ethnic, race is not considered a legitimate category by the state. It is not measured in the census, and recently the word “race” was removed from the French Constitution, and in fact, the United States is often characterized as an example of dangers that can occur when such differences are acknowledged, so can you talk to me a little bit about some of the stories and the examples, like Jean in the book, where empathy played a role in healing racial conflict, racial tension, and also I guess the larger question is why have we manufactured a category to divide us that doesn’t even really exist, that’s a larger question, but that’s a huge, but
Terri Givens 14:07
I’m teaching a whole class about that. Yeah, yeah, but just to, you know, to be, to provide kind of the short version of that, it goes back hundreds of years, right? I mean, it’s about power, it’s about capitalism, it’s about, you know, being able to, you know, use people as, you know, means of production instead of seeing them as human beings, and you know, the problem with, and the reason why this has, you know, been an ongoing issue is our inability to connect to history, and that’s why I’ve written, you know, my book, The Roots of Racism, gets into the history, and, and why race has persisted as a category, even though it’s a social construct, and you know, and it’s not just race, right, it’s also about, you know, I talk about immigration, and, you know, in Jean’s context, she’s looking at people who come from immigrant backgrounds. And how they are dealt with in France, and the reality is, even though they, you know, I do think it’s right to take race out of the French constitution, the problem is it doesn’t take away racism,
Maria Ross 15:12
right? Exactly,
Terri Givens 15:13
you can take race out, but you know, right, are you actually dealing with the underlying racism, and so the key is understanding the so it’s face, it’s coming face to face with what we’re dealing, you know, it’s like it’s not denying, it’s not trying to erase history, it’s not banning books, it’s saying we just need to come face to face with our history and understand how did we get here and why is it that we still have situations where people are being discriminated against, that they can’t get jobs, you know, even though they are highly qualified, you know, we’re hurting ourselves by not,
Maria Ross 15:51
yeah,
Terri Givens 15:51
you know, utilizing people to their potential, and you know, if we are undermining people’s ability to get educated, to get jobs, so on and so forth, but the thing is, is you know, people are, you know, we are, you know, I know I am an example, you know, I’m somebody who has, you know, moved up in the world, who first generation college goer, and now I’m, you know, a professor, a full professor at a major institution, and writing books, and so on, and so the question is, can we have you use empathy to understand how we got here and why it’s so important that you know, like, my, my, I’m, you know, meeting my potential, and others can if we just give them the opportunity, right? So, and that’s true in France, it’s true in Germany, it’s true in the US, it’s true in Canada. You know, this is an international thing, and, like I said, it’s not always about race, right? Sometimes it’s immigration status,
Maria Ross 16:50
it’s any difference. Yeah, it’s any difference where we’re othering groups of people, and then we’re not, we’re not maximizing the potential of what they can contribute to the whole, right? So, this is this is the interesting dichotomy of racism, is you’re just punishing yourself
Terri Givens 17:07
exactly
Maria Ross 17:07
when you’re racist, right? You’re just punishing your community and your world and what’s what’s potential in your organization, even. So I love that. So now let’s let’s focus a little bit, because then you didn’t, you also have a whole section on business as well, and you talk about DEI, and how no, it hasn’t just been around since 2020 which I chuckled at, because in the early 90s my first job out of college was for a big six management consulting firm, and we had what now you would call ERGs, they were interest groups, and one of them was the diversity committee, and we were on that, and I don’t even know if we knew what our clear charter was. I think we just knew it was about embracing difference to make, again, to make better business decisions, and to create a bigger whole than the sum of its parts, and that was back again in the mid 90s, they were using that word in a corporate setting, so you talk about again, not just since 2020 and you mentioned these first movers that are sort of these these bright lights that are leading the way in these conversations and continuing to lead the way against all these headwinds, you talk about IBM being one of the first tech companies to focus on equity, initially gender equity, and then you mentioned Intel and L’Oreal Canada, I believe. So, can you share a little bit about those stories, and what’s what’s the actionable takeaway for listeners on what they’re doing within their organizations to embrace empathy and difference and see other points of view, and then become successful as a result of that.
Terri Givens 18:49
Right. Well, I’ll start with IBM, because my sister has a direct link there. But what’s really interesting about IBM is they started programs back going way back into like the 70s and 80s, in you know, using what my sister was part of was a co-op program, so she was in high school and she was brought in, and so she went through, you know, a series of trainings, and so on, and she, you know, ended up being, you know, very high up in the organization, and so it’s just one example, but they really put in an effort to say we’re going to start reaching out to kids in high school,
Maria Ross 19:30
yeah,
Terri Givens 19:31
and provide
Maria Ross 19:34
it’s like sports recruiting,
Terri Givens 19:35
exactly, exactly, I mean, I wish more people thought of it that way, yeah, to kind of, you know, and I do see companies doing this, but I mean, the, it’s only been in more recent years, and then I, you know, the fact that IBM was doing this so early on ended up creating a very diverse, you know, organization. Now they have issues, don’t, but but it should. One example of how they went out of their way to make sure that they were getting more women and were people of color into the workplace, and so intel caught my eye years ago, you know, living in Silicon Valley, and hearing about the fact that they went beyond just saying, oh, you need to be hiring more, you know, you can imagine in engineering, Silicon Valley hiring women is still, oh yeah, yeah, and so they, you had had basically required, and this is where I come, I think the top down is important, they actually created a system where managers had part of, for part of their review, and whether they got their bonuses or not required them to show that they were making progress in terms of hiring women and people of color, and so, and you know, tying things like bonuses and annual reviews to it is was a really important step in increasing diversity, and then actually I did some work personally with L’Oreal Canada, but I did the research into the broader situation, because I actually ran into L’Oreal years ago when I was doing research for my book, Legislating Equality, which is one of my academic books, and I was really interested to see this was in the like around 2006 or so, they were very actively involved with what was going on in, in Europe, in the European Union, and how they were, you know, focusing on diversity, because, of course, as a cosmetics company, the vast majority of their, their clientele customers is our people of color, and so on, women, and women, yes,
Maria Ross 21:45
yeah,
Terri Givens 21:45
so, but I think they’ve been doing okay around women, but
Maria Ross 21:48
yeah,
Terri Givens 21:48
you know, the people of color, they needed to do more in terms of just, you know, providing products,
Maria Ross 21:56
in terms of understanding their customers and what their needs were, and having that perspective, you know, it’s like it’s like a.. it’s.. I don’t know, it’s like a mom’s baby company being owned by a whole board of men, which is okay. It doesn’t mean they can’t, but having that perspective to really understand what the experience of the customer is like is empathy in action. That’s what having an empathetic brand means it’s that you see the world through your customers eyes, not through your own,
Terri Givens 22:26
exactly.
Maria Ross 22:27
Yeah,
Terri Givens 22:27
yeah. And so I was really interested, because you know, I’d had the experience of working with the folks at L’Oreal in Montreal, and then to learn more about their history of how they got to the point where they really were changing their advertising, they were, you know, basically, you know, promoting more people within the organization and creating opportunities for people of color and women, you know, in the higher up levels of the organization, and it made them, you know, then it’s interesting, because they also created, you know, the ERG type entities, and so on, and you know, it’ll be interesting to watch these companies as we’re going through a much more difficult environment. Are they maintaining those, yeah, you know, those commitments, and as far as I can tell, so far they are just not being very loud and vocal.
Maria Ross 23:23
Well, I was going to say I actually had a conversation, I think it was last year, with I got on, I managed to get on a call with the advisors of one of the funds that my financial planner invests us in, and I thought, wow, lowly me, they’re making time to talk to me, because I was concerned about decisions around withdrawing investments from companies or the board votes, and all that, around companies that were committed to diversity, equity, and inclusion, and I said, my concern is purely about performance, not purely, but that’s what I told them, and I said, I do this work, I’m in this world, and I understand that you make better business decisions when you have a diverse workforce. So, for anyone listening wondering, why you have these programs to bring more women in, why you have these programs to bring more people of color, it’s because when you have this diversity of experience, it actually impacts the bottom line. You actually make smarter business decisions, and I said, pulling back from companies committed to that seems like a foolish financial investment.
Terri Givens 24:23
Yeah,
Maria Ross 24:24
that you pull back from companies that that would hire boards or hire leadership or higher employee basis that all think the same way, which means they’re going to miss the risks and they’re going to also miss the opportunities. And they said to me, yes, you’re one of the people that get it, but there’s a lot of people who don’t, and they said what’s happening is that’s a lot of like just doing what they need to do to stay out of the crosshairs, but internally they are still committing, they might be calling in something else, they might be just, it just might be the ethos of how they hire, et cetera, et cetera, because they’re smart.
Terri Givens 25:00
Right, exactly. You don’t have to say, “Oh, you know, that’s why I tend to avoid the word DEI, because the problem with it is people get a mental..
Maria Ross 25:09
It’s loaded. Yeah,
Terri Givens 25:10
yeah, it’s a mental image of, “Oh, we have to do our one hour training online, you know, and that’s not what 100%
Maria Ross 25:16
or we have to, or in their mind, for whatever reason they’ve gotten this in their mind, we hire someone less qualified in order to fulfill a quota, and that’s not what we’re talking about.
Terri Givens 25:26
No, the.. it’s really interesting, because I have this conversation. Well, at least, especially when I’ve been working in higher ed, that you.. it’s not that you just have to broaden where you’re looking for people,
Maria Ross 25:36
you broaden the talent pool,
Terri Givens 25:37
that’s right. Yeah, and I talk about.. I know you want to talk about it, but you know, when beyond corporations, you know, just looking at what I’ve been able to do in higher ed is get people to open their eyes and look beyond and say, oh, there’s a broader talent pool out there, and I’m missing all these amazing people because I’m just focused on my little piece of white who’s out there, and so you know, when we started doing the hiring, everybody’s, wow, we’re hiring all these amazing people, and they’re doing such amazing work. It’s like, yeah, they’re out there, yeah. Yes, because all of a sudden you aren’t just hanging out, you know, at your conferences with the same people. If you broaden who you’re talking to, and just, you know, because people, how do I find, you know, these people? I’m like, well,
Maria Ross 26:23
you got to look for them.
Terri Givens 26:24
If you’re not finding them, it means you’re that you are not looking for them, and that you are.. it’s like people talk about in social media, you know? You’re in your silo,
Maria Ross 26:34
yeah?
Terri Givens 26:34
And if you stay in your silo, no, you’re not going to find them,
Maria Ross 26:38
right? Right, you’re not going to get exposed to those networks, okay. So, let’s switch real quick, because one of the stories that really stuck with me in terms of practical advice for leaders in any industry was actually the work you did with the Menlo Park, California Police Department, and you were doing this work as provost at Menlo College, and you were really working with them on on increasing the quality of community relations and community input, so tell us a little bit about that initiative and what exactly you all put in place to create that better relationship and to be able to be open to those other points of view and have the police department be more empathetic towards the population they were serving and vice versa,
Terri Givens 27:26
right. So it was at the time when you know, so this was literally like right in the thick of the issues around policing and George Floyd, and and the interesting thing was that there was tension between, like, city council members and the police, as well as the community, and so in many ways I was kind of an intermediary who stepped in and said, “Look, how can we improve communication? So, as part of a committee that was working on this issue of policing and reaching out to the community, and luckily we had a police chief who was very open, he actually was very commute, he was involved in PR previously, he understood communication, and so what we decided to do was create a situation where people in the community could actually talk directly about the issues they were seeing, and so we held these kind of town, it was all on Zoom, because we were still in COVID, but these town hall meetings in each district, and the council members were welcome to come and, you know, greet their constituents, but you know, we really tried to make no police were there, yeah, and I had a set of questions that I would ask people, and it really was, you know, as I talk about it’s really about building trust, right, and that’s how you create change, and so it really created a situation where people felt like they could talk about their concerns and share those, and you know, I would share them anonymously with the city council and the police chief, and what it led to was, I mean, I think the main outcome was was building trust, right? Yeah, people felt like, okay, they’re listening to me, and I have this opportunity to connect, and and it also led to, you know, the police chief saying, well, we need to have more of our police officers on bikes, because people don’t like it when we are driving around in these big huge SUVs, because it’s intimidating, and you know, we need to do a better job of reaching out, especially to the kids, and you know, they have issues with the funny thing, is of course it’s a small city, and people have a lot of issues with traffic, and but there’s also parts of town where people are concerned about over policing and racial profiling, and so having. Of venues, and we also created ways for people to send anonymous concerns, and so on. So some of it, actually, of the reforms were already happening at the state level in California, like keeping track of data, you know, things like, you know, figuring out how much racial profiling is going on, and so finding ways to, you know, make that more visible on the website, all kinds of things that we did. The I think you know you can still see to this day have had an impact.
Maria Ross 30:34
Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s what struck me about, and you know, hopefully folks pick up the book and just, you know, dive into this case study, because so many of the little micro actions you took are things that can be replicated in other organizations to increase trust and increase communication, and the way that those actions really exhibited clarity and communication, which, you know, clarity is one of my five pillars of effective and empathetic leadership, putting mechanisms in place that allow you know it’s not just tell us how you feel, right, which would a lot of organizational leaders say, right, I have an open door policy, just tell me how you feel whenever you want to, putting the structure in place and putting the safety in place around, let’s create a process, let’s create a forum for people to give that feedback, like you said. Put in a system where they can give anonymous feedback. Will they get trolls in there? Maybe. Will they get complainers? Probably. But they’re also going to glean a lot of great nuggets of people that are too scared to say something that’s on their minds, and eventually you build trust to the point that you might not need to have anonymous mechanisms, but you can’t start at that point of like, just tell us how you feel, like you know, I hear that from a lot of leaders, of like, well, everyone on my team knows they can come to me at any time and talk to me about what’s on their mind or their experience, do they, you know what I mean, like, do they really feel safe to do that, and not for anything you may have done, but there could be something within the culture, within the hierarchy, within the power structure that’s inhibiting that connection that they can have with you as a leader. It doesn’t mean you’re bad or you’re wrong, it just means you’ve got to meet them where they are and put systems and processes and kind of operational decisions in place to foster empathy and trust, and this is where I love when I read these kinds of stories, because it’s like this is brass tax, this is not fluffy, like I just need to be a better person as a leader, right, this is no, sometimes you’ve got to put mechanisms in place and you have to operationalize some of this, so I loved, I loved that case study, and you also, I think this was part of that same case study. You provided guidance to create a brave and safe place.
Terri Givens 32:54
Yes,
Maria Ross 32:55
can you talk a little bit about that? I’ve got the section of the book open, because did you put, actually put this on the website, or were these guys?
Terri Givens 33:03
Yes, yes, yes. So that’s how we set up the discussions, right? We wanted to make sure we, so we were very careful about how we set this up for,
Maria Ross 33:12
of course. Yeah, it’s got to be thoughtful,
Terri Givens 33:15
exactly. And we didn’t want to waste people’s time or waste our time, and so we, yeah, we set up these guidelines to create this brave and safe space, and it was partly because of concerns, and this we spent a year talking about this before we launched it, and so we wanted to make sure we were addressing the concerns of the people in the community, as well as the city council, as well as the police sub, because so I think a lot of times we forget the police officers are people too.
Maria Ross 33:48
Hey, exactly, exactly,
Terri Givens 33:50
we want to kind of dehumanize, you know, it’s so funny because we worry about being dehumanized by, you know, the police and so on, but we have to make sure we understand that they are human beings too,
Maria Ross 34:02
right? And they’re doing a job. I have one of my older brothers who was a police officer for his whole career. He’s retired now, and he used to work in some, you know, underserved communities, and they would give him awards as, like, you actually, you’re one of the cops that actually listens to me, and they saw him as a person. And so, yeah, it’s, it’s remembering that as well, because it’s when we start to dehumanize each other, no matter what side you sit on, that things go off the rails,
Terri Givens 34:29
absolutely, and so, so those, you know, creating a, you know, a brave and safe space was really important, so that we weren’t just attacking, you know, what the police were doing, right? It had to be an environment where we were trying to uplift rather than tear down.
Maria Ross 34:51
You want to move forward. The whole point of it is to move forward, not just to make things worse. But I loved some of these guidelines. I just want to read some of these, because again. Something you can apply to any organization, and guidelines you can have within your organization, if you’re, if you’re concerned about psychological safety, if you’re concerned about people really being honest with you about what’s going on, things like use I statements, recognize intentions, ask about them, humanize the other person, like we talked about, ask curious questions, dig deeper, my three word magic phrase. Tell me more. I love that. That’s in there, and I love this. It’s okay not to be polished or perfect in your delivery. Everyone makes mistakes. We have to be prepared to provide a safe space for learning, and that includes the leader. The leader doesn’t have to have it all together either.
Terri Givens 35:39
That’s right.
Maria Ross 35:40
And then know that you don’t have to understand to accept another’s point of view or experience, that’s huge. We don’t have to agree, but we can, we can hear them out, and then respect that that’s their experience, even if it’s not ours. And then finally, out yourself as someone with similar thought struggles, so there’s that vulnerability, like, wow, I used to think like that, and someone told me this, or I realized that, really helping to again make that connection of, like, I understand where you are, because I was there at one point too, absolutely, and then obviously patience with yourself and others, so, so what was the reception to that? I’m curious, like, obviously it went well, but what was the initial reception to guidelines like this, and sort of operationalizing this? Were there eye rolls? Were there like, oh, we’re making this really bureaucratic, or were people pretty open to it?
Terri Givens 36:34
Well, because we worked with people to yield this, can create an. yeah, so yes, there. there, I think early on in the process there might have been some eye rolls, and you know, to be honest, suspicion, you know, what are you really trying to do? Yeah, and I think once that’s why I always say building trust is so I had to build the trust, you know, with the police and the city council before we could even go forward and build trust with the community, right, and so that was really important, but yeah, I think that it was very positive. I think people felt like they were seen, and that’s really, and even for the police and the city council members, they, yeah, like they had to be seen, and so if I would say that the best thing that came out of this for me was understanding how people, even if they have differences, they want to be respected, they want to be seen, and they want to be given the opportunity, and you know, I think, especially in the social media world, people are worried, well, if I open my mouth, people are just gonna laugh at me, or right, and so having, you know, it was really important that I, as the, you know, I moderated all of these discussions, that I was showing respect for people and not denigrating anything they had to say, or ensuring that when we had these conversations, that you know, it wasn’t set up in a way that we were tearing people down, so that’s why that was yet another some of this comes from the literature on difficult conversations, some of it comes from the work I, your work, which I have read diligently, and so really it was a combination of my understanding of how to move forward these kind of difficult conversations, but also creating a space where people felt safe, and that was the word that one of the council members kept repeating, we need a safe space. Yeah, and so I was like, well, we need a safe space, but we all need a brave, we also need a brave space where we feel like they are empowering people, you know, we this, we need to add that to everything we talk about. Absolutely, is you know, as leaders, as members of a community, we want to feel empowered, and that’s something that, you know, we really try to do, is help people feel empowered, that they have some influence in what happens in their community.
Maria Ross 39:01
Yeah, and also, you know, I just want to point out, like, a public service message on this. If this is something you know for listeners, their team is going through it’s one thing to just take the playbook and take your guidelines and say we’re just going to implement this within our own organization. You’re missing that piece of getting the buy-in from other people, that could be a great starting point, of like, here’s some, here’s some ground rules, or here’s some, some expectations we have. What would you add to it? What would you take away? What do you think is missing, and making it more collaborative, instead of going like, oh, this is the solution, let’s just plug this into our organization, and boom, tomorrow we’re going to have a brave and safe space. You don’t, unfortunately, get a shortcut on the work, but you can leverage examples like this, and tools like this, and processes like this to put this in place within your organization to at least have a straw man and say this is one way we could go, but How will this work for us and our culture and our team again? And what’s missing, or what do you want to add, or what doesn’t feel right, or what should we definitely keep, and then use that instead of trying to find the cookie cutter template that’s going to fit within your organization with your people,
Terri Givens 40:13
indeed. Yeah, I think that that is very, very good advice, because we have a tendency, especially in this kind of broader DEI space, to say we just, just tell us what to do,
Maria Ross 40:26
just tell us what to do, tell us the words we can’t say, tell us, yeah, it does, unfortunately, doesn’t work like that. All right, so as we kind of wrap this up, and I know the big, I know the big crux of, and correct me if I’m wrong, radical empathy was really how to put empathy into action. Yes, and with this book, it feels like it’s empathy 2.0 about how to leverage empathy to achieve change. Would that be an accurate summary? Yeah, and so I think your main message is that it’s at different levels, it’s individual, it’s community, it’s organization, it’s country, and its global, right? They’re sort of different mechanisms, and we don’t have to start with the big ocean to boil. We can start at the mini ocean within our own hearts, right?
Terri Givens 41:13
Yes.
Maria Ross 41:14
So I just want to read this passage in the conclusion that really spoke to me, and then I want to talk to you about just giving us a lasting nugget of where we can go next on this journey. We all have to understand that it is a practice that we have to work on every day, every week, every year, because I don’t believe that bias will go away in my lifetime, and it’s likely it won’t go away anytime in the foreseeable future. We are living in turbulent times, and so many are in pain from the events and crimes that are being perpetuated everywhere we look. We have to be willing to do the work, even if it feels like it’s just a drop in the bucket. Imagine that work being done by hundreds, 1000s, even millions. It’s an important path to change,
Terri Givens 42:00
and what that passage says to me is lean on community, exactly, and that’s what I have been really emphasizing in the last year or so, is mutual aid is so critical right now, reaching out to your community. I have a friend who makes beautiful hats, and I ordered a couple from him, and he sent a few extra, and he said, “Would you make sure these get distributed to the homeless in your area? And I said, “Yes, that is a small thing I can do to make you. And so I went, and I made sure they went to a homeless shelter, and those four people are going to get hats.
Maria Ross 42:38
Yeah,
Terri Givens 42:38
that’s it. Seems like a drop in the bucket, but it’s a beautiful thing.
Maria Ross 42:43
You got to start, so it’s better than doing nothing at all. It’s like the starfish story, right? Like it matters to that one starfish, and we can’t, as much as we want to, we can’t boil the ocean. And I, I speak very vulnerably and personally, that that’s where I get overwhelmed, of like, there’s so many problems, there’s so much injustice, and it makes me want to crawl into my little hole and not do anything, and that’s where building community and leaning, going to, you know, being part of a mastermind, being part of an activist group, being around those leaders who are, I’m going to steal this phrase from an organization I’m part of, Samudra, it’s being like hearted but different minded instead of like minded, and really being around those people to bolster you and galvanize you when you’re having your bad day.
Terri Givens 43:32
That’s right. It’s that’s why I say mutual aid,
Maria Ross 43:35
yeah,
Terri Givens 43:36
because I can go and help somebody who maybe is struggling financially, and you know, needs some support, you know, whether it’s, you know, supporting a food bank. I just started making a monthly donation to my local food bank in the San Francisco area, because I split my time between here and San Francisco. But what are you know, when I think of other ways that people can do this, it’s, you know, first of all find, be curious, find out what’s going on. Yeah, you know, where do people need help? I have an amazing friend who does this work in San Jose with a group called, you know, Neighborhood Helping Hands, and they go to a park, and they, you know, they’ll work on cleaning it up, and they pay the homeless people who come and help, and sometimes they help them find, you know, access to services, and, and you know, there’s so much that they can do that, and you, when you do this work, you’re getting something too, right? And it’s helping you feel empowered and getting past this feeling of being overwhelmed, and so there’s different ways, but sometimes you need, I need help sometimes.
Maria Ross 44:45
Yeah,
Terri Givens 44:46
and
Maria Ross 44:46
yeah,
Terri Givens 44:47
so that’s why I talk about it’s mutual, it’s not that I have to give and give, it’s that I am getting something.
Maria Ross 44:53
Yes, and I think it holds true, not only just for getting involved in social activism, but even your own. Empathy practice, because whatever capacity you have on a given day to be an empathetic individual, you’re not always going to show up the way you want to show up, and so you know, I really encourage leaders or folks listening that get into a community that helps you work on yourself and helps you be your best self, so that you can show up in all these other places. It doesn’t mean you have, you know, leadership can be really lonely, and sometimes if you’re in that, your own little bubble, you think you’re the only one facing these issues, right? A lot of my clients and the folks I’m talking to right now are facing issues of overwhelm with the dramatic transformations that are happening in the workplace. How do I juggle everything on my plate with my people’s needs, with the business demands on me, and they feel like they’re the only one dropping the balls, and it’s like, no, you’re not. And so reach out to a community who can say, here’s what’s working for me, or I’m just here to listen and build that empathy muscle, so then you can go out and be part of these other organizations within your community or in your world, but like you said, it’s all got to start with what you’re doing. How are you nourishing yourself first?
Terri Givens 46:10
Right. Yeah, and you know, self care always, yeah, yeah. Just, and remember that a lot of times it’s the people closest to you who we. I think there’s a tendency to forget that even the people closest to you sometimes need that empathy and that support, and yeah, and you know, I think we make a lot of assumptions, you know, about family members and friends.
Maria Ross 46:33
Yeah,
Terri Givens 46:33
and again, it comes back to make sure you’re being curious, ask questions, find out what’s going on,
Maria Ross 46:39
love it
Terri Givens 46:40
and make sure you maintain those that communication, because it’s not only and tell the people you care about how you’re feeling, because that opens them. That’s why I say being vulnerable is so important, because when I’m vulnerable with you, you’re more likely to be vulnerable with me.
Maria Ross 46:55
Exactly, you, you break a wall, and that’s, you know, again, with the most effective and empathetic leaders, they’re the ones who are like, I don’t have all the answers. They’re not running around, you know, like a chicken with their head cut off, but they’re just confidently like, hey, I don’t know, let’s figure it out together. They don’t have to pretend they’re all buttoned up, they have all the answers, they’re the guru on on high, because I’ve said this before, show me a leader who thinks they know everything, and I’ll show you a leader who’s irrelevant, because if they’ve stopped learning and growing, so your point about curiosity, it’s on so many levels. Curiosity is the number one trait of empathy and empathic people, but curiosity about other people’s perspectives and points of view and experiences will even help you sometimes get out of your own doldrums, out of your own, out of your own head. Yeah,
Terri Givens 47:45
indeed.
Maria Ross 47:47
I could talk to you about this forever, Terri. A week need, like, a weekly session. Thank you so much for your time and your insights today, and for this book again, everyone. It’s called Reckoning: Creating Positive Change through radical empathy. Your previous empathy book was called Radical Empathy. As I said, I’m going to link to your other episode you did for us on that book as well. For anyone, though, that’s on the go right now, where’s the best place they can learn more about your work?
Terri Givens 48:13
So you can go to www.terrigivens.com and there’s all kinds of links to the work I’m doing. I’ve got upcoming events that you can be part of, so please reach out, and you can join my mailing list as well, and yeah, there’s in just, you know, if you want to Google me too, there’s lots of ways to find information,
Maria Ross 48:37
Terri with an i, t e r r i, so thank you again, it was so lovely to reconnect.
Terri Givens 48:42
Yes, it’s wonderful seeing you.
Maria Ross 48:45
And thank you, everyone, for listening to another episode of The Empathy Edge Podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Please rate, review, and share it with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit The Empathy edge.com There you can listen to past episodes, access show notes, and free resources. Book me for a keynote or workshop, and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news, and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red Slice Maria. Never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
