Your organization may be missing out on the talent, innovation, and productivity of your workforce because of your own actions! I’m talking about accommodating disability. When we fail to invest in mindset and policy shifts, we fail to optimize the people within our organizations.
After experiencing complete memory loss due to a brain injury, my guest, Julie Harris, defied expectations as she found success in education and the corporate world. Today, we bond over our brain injury stories and discuss the definition of disability, how stigma impairs human performance, and how you may be hindering innovation and productivity. We also discuss why accommodation is not special treatment and why many fail to realize we all expect accommodations daily. Julie shares practical advice for what leaders can do to unleash the potential of disabled workers and achieve their business goals.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- Not everybody’s disability looks the same or requires the same things, even if they are in the same category of disability.
- Disable and unable are not the same thing. The term disability is an accurate and correct description because it’s something externally acting upon your body to make it not able.
- When the brain is under stress, we are only concerned with survival, which impairs your employee’s ability to do the work, impacting the bottom line.
“We accommodate people all the time at work and in everyday life, yet when it comes to disability, it had to be a legal right granted because those accommodations were so frequently denied. Just because one person needs a different thing doesn’t mean it’s preferential treatment. We’re giving them exactly what they need to do their job.” — Julie Harris
References:
- The Empathy Edge podcasts:
- Disclo: disclo.com
From Our Partner:
SparkEffect partners with organizations to unlock the full potential of their greatest asset: their people. Through their tailored assessments and expert coaching at every level, SparkEffect helps organizations manage change, sustain growth, and chart a path to a brighter future.
Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.
About Julie Harris, CEO/Founder, Access My Ability. Author of Boldly Belong:
After experiencing complete memory loss due to a brain injury, Julie quickly defied doctors’ expectations as she found success in secondary education and the corporate world. Drawing from personal study and formal education in neuroscience, process improvement, and disability inclusion, she consults with individuals and organizations around the globe. Despite having less than 16 years’ worth of memory and knowledge, Julie is now CEO and Founder of Access My Ability and author of Boldly Belong: The Power of Being You in a Disabling Society. Her expertise has been sought after by numerous Fortune 500 companies, where she has delivered compelling speeches and invaluable consultation on disability inclusion, workplace rights, and reasonable accommodation process improvement. Julie’s goal is to demonstrate that success can be achieved through unconventional paths that defy rules and expectations.
Connect with Julie:
Access My Ability: accessmyability.org
LinkedIn: Julie Harris
Book: Boldly Belong: The Power of Being You in a Disabling Society
Connect with Maria:
Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com
Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
X: @redslice
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Your organization may be missing out on the talent, innovation and productivity of a big part of your workforce because of your own actions. I’m talking about accommodating for disability, whether physical or otherwise, not every person can effectively work in the exact same way, and when we fail to invest in mindset shifts and policy, we miss out on a bigger talent pool and fail to optimize 100% of the people within our own organization. Before you cut costs to stay competitive, try optimizing your existing resources. First, after experiencing complete memory loss due to a brain injury, my guest today, Julie Harris, quickly defied doctor’s expectations as she found success in secondary education and the corporate world, drawing from personal study and formal education in neuroscience process improvement and disability inclusion. She consults with individuals and organizations around the globe. Despite having less than 16 years worth of memory and knowledge. Julie is now CEO and founder of access my ability and the author of boldly belong the power of being you in a disabling society. Her expertise has been sought out by numerous fortune, 500 companies, where she’s delivered compelling speeches and invaluable consultation on disability inclusion, workplace rights and reasonable accommodation process improvement. Julie has guided hundreds of employees to successfully advocate for their needs to be met in the workplace, and has educated 1000s more on their legal rights and improved self advocacy skills. Julie’s goal is to demonstrate that success can be achieved through unconventional paths that defy rules and expectations. Today, we bond over our brain injury stories and talk about the definition of disability and why our current view of it is limiting, why empathy is so lacking for those with disability, especially when it’s not readily visible, how stigma impairs human performance and how you may be unwittingly hindering innovation and productivity, why accommodation is not special treatment, it’s a way to ensure People can do their best work, and that many of us fail to realize that we all expect accommodations every day, from adjustable car seats to how we set up our workstations to how we take our coffee and Julie shares practical advice for what leaders can do to unleash the potential of disabled workers and achieve their business goals more successfully. It was an honor to host Julie today, and her work is so important. Take a listen. Welcome Julie Harris to the empathy edge podcast to help us unpack and understand the creativity and potential of disabled folks in our workplaces. Welcome to the show.
Julie Harris 03:42
Thank you. Thank you for having me
Maria Ross 03:44
so you and I share a little bit in common in terms of being survivors of brain injury. So I would love for you to share your story about how you even got into this work of being an advocate for the disabled and for doing the education and the work that you do with companies and leaders. Okay,
Julie Harris 04:03
my brain injury happened in a hospital. Very luckily, I just passed out. But typically, when people pass out, they kind of crumple to the ground, and I just fell straight back, hit my head, went into a 40 minute seizure, and was in a coma for a few days in the hospital for about three months. Now, at this time, I was 20 years old, I went in with the brain of a 20 year old, but came out with a brand that much more the brain of like a three year old. I had the capability of a 20 year old still, but the knowledge, the understanding, the cognitive resources of a three year old. And so when I was in the hospital, my experience was that of my needs being met. You know, immediately, I was immediately provided for I was immediately if I was in pain, I got meds if I if something happened, everyone rushed in if something if I was getting overwhelmed. You know, nurses. Would ask the people to leave. It was all about my needs. So I had forgotten, oh, did I? Did I say that I forgot everything? I don’t think I even said that. Yeah,
Maria Ross 05:07
you hadn’t mentioned that. You forgot to mention forgotten everything. Yeah, times
Julie Harris 05:12
even now, my brain, you know, can, there’s some lapses, but one of the results of my brain injury that got everything prior, I had to relearn everything, and as part of this, I forgot social norms. I forgot how people in hospitals are typically treated. I forgot that, you know, just how everyday interactions with life and with humanity and living in the hospital, basically starting out in the hospital for three months, learned that my needs really mattered. I learned that I was respected. I learned that I was treated like I legit, because every little win was celebrated. When I said my alphabet, even though it was backwards, it was celebrated. And then I got into the real world, and within about a year, realized that that is not the norm, that people with disabilities are not treated that inclusively. Their needs aren’t met that well. Their needs are often tied. My needs were often denied. I wasn’t any more celebrated for little wins. I was judged because I was far behind those of my peers despite the disability and anyway, so it that’s what really led me to recognize how people with disabilities are treated so differently, but not because we’re actually not capable, just because of the stigma behind it. So a root of what I do is really challenging the stigma, and that’s what I hope to do some of here today. I
Maria Ross 06:31
love that. Thank you for sharing that story and how harrowing for you. You know I we have talked before that I had a brain injury several years ago that was a ruptured aneurysm, and it’s normally a catastrophic, catastrophic event, but I was very fortunate now. I did have to do recovery. I did had had to overcome cognitive deficits, vocabulary, recall, I still have problems 15 years later, with short term memory. It drives my family bananas, but I can totally relate to this idea. I remember leaving the hospital after six weeks and feeling like I was exposed, feeling like I wasn’t in that safe cocoon where people understood me and saw me as a person, and again, had seen me at my worst and saw how far I had come in six weeks, and it was really, really scary. So I can only imagine that, you know, we don’t think about that when we think of people getting out of the hospital, we automatically think they’re okay, like, now they’re out of the hospital, everything’s fine. And I remember even someone jokingly said, so is your brain all fixed then? And it’s like, well, not quite so now that what you went through from a recovery perspective is vastly different than what I went through. And we should note, as both being brain injury advocates, that you know, brain injuries differ greatly. They differ depending on the event. They differ depending on what part of the brain was impacted. And so you know that’s why someone with a brain injury can have speech or alphabet or memory impacted so badly. Mine was basically frontal lobe issues, cognitive issues around, you know, the executive functions. That’s really where my brain injury took place. And so, you know, even within we’re talking about a subset of disability, but even within that subset of disability, there are so many differences and nuances, and I think that’s an important point for leaders and colleagues to understand, that not everybody’s quote, unquote disability looks the same. So on that note, can you define for us what is disability and what are the nuances around that? Because I think it’s it sometimes can seem like a very subjective term, and even I don’t know if I’m comfortable talking about myself as living with a disability, even though there’s things that I have to overcome and strategies I have to employ on a daily basis that I never had to before. So talk to us about what is disability? I
Julie Harris 08:58
love this question and this topic, because there’s the common understanding what a disability is, is typically somebody who uses a wheelchair, somebody who’s blind, somebody who’s deaf, some of the commonly understood and more well known and more obvious disabilities, and a lot of times, people who technically could qualify as being disabled in various ways, or say, Well, I’m not disabled like them, so I’m not disabled. And that’s where I was for a while after my brain injury, because I started, when I started to realize how people talked about disability, I was like, well, that’s not me. Well, that’s not me because I’m capable, right? Yes, so interesting, because I’m immediately because of what I was learning. This is me brand new into the world learning. So I’m learning stigma, I’m learning prejudice, I’m learning stereotypes. And I was like, Well, I’m not like them, so I can’t be disabled. But let’s get to the definition, like you asked, I go by the legal definition, especially when we’re talking about the workplace, because. It’s the one that really offers us rights, legal rights. And if you deny that you are disabled, then you’re denying yourself a lot of protections at the ports that you could have. So under the Americans with Disabilities Act, a disability is defined as a mental or physical impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities. So what that means? It’s a lot of words to just mean any mental or physical difference, and it uses the word limitation specifically, because it’s something that does live you, like our brain injuries, you said you talked about that you still have some short term memory issues. Well, that’s a limitation that’s in your brain. So it’s mental. I have some many things, but mental limitations, memory is one of them, sensory over stimulation. I really have to plan around my day and what sensory things. You know, if I’m going to the grocery store, I could not do something focused, like I need to focus after. I wouldn’t even do this after I went to grocery store, because grocery store takes so much out of me, sensory wise, that’s a limitation in the sense that limits me more than the average human So then, when it says that limits one or more major life activities that can be sleeping. So narcolepsy disability, because it directly impacts sleeping, even if that doesn’t directly impact the work. Well, sleeping, everybody knows if you don’t have a good night’s sleep, you’re not as Yeah, it
Maria Ross 11:28
impacts your cognitive ability Exactly. And so
Julie Harris 11:31
it can be walking, remembering, thinking, hearing, seeing, focusing, writing, cooking, using the restroom, eating, digesting, it could be any major life activity. And it’s really important to note that depression, anxiety, things like that under the ADA qualifies disabilities, and they qualify depending on I mean, if they major, if they impact a major life activity, which typically to be diagnosable, they will. But it’s all of that too. You know, the ones that we commonly think of as disabilities, which, you know, using wheelchairs, yeah, things we can see, yes, yeah.
Maria Ross 12:11
I always say, you know, brain injury is sort of the unseen disability, because people can mask it pretty well, right? And, oh yeah, you know, so much of what you’re saying is resonating with me. And I’m just wondering a question that listeners might be wondering in that, could it be said that all of us as humans have some form of a disability? I mean, there’s so much that different people based on who they are and how they operate, there could be certain things about them that limit them in a way. So is it fair to say that disability is way more common than we give it credit for? Oh,
Julie Harris 12:48
absolutely. And I what how I talk about disability when I’m giving presentations and trying to, you know, really fight against the stigma is talk about how disability is a natural variation of being human. And an example that I give to talk about this is, you know, in the car, the automatic seat words are leaving me now, but automatic seat adjusters, whatever they’re called, are accommodating for a natural variation of humanity, that is height, that is, you know, preference, even you know, we’re making sure that somebody who’s five, three or six three can fit into this car. Now, there’s some cars that maybe a six three person isn’t going to be able to fit in, but they can choose a different car. We build it in and we accommodate for that natural variation of humanity. Disability is just another natural variation of humanity. Why it’s such a big deal is because it’s something that is different enough that it’s not well understood, that it’s confusing, that it makes us, you know, wait a second, what does that mean? Does that and then we start to develop stories about it. That’s where stigmas come from. We human brains start to develop stories about what we don’t understand. And when we’re talking about disabilities, especially in the workplace, why it’s really specific, or why it’s really important to distinguish between like, who does have a disability and who doesn’t, if they’re asking for rights, is because, for people with disabilities, the accommodations that we give every day to most people often are denied because of the stigma attached to disability. Of Well, you had a brain injury, you don’t remember things, you’re not as smart, you’re not as capable, therefore, I’m not going to give you this that I would give the person next to you who doesn’t have a disability, but they’re smart enough, like a screen, you know, little little things like a different chair, a desk that is a standing desk, or a one that can be moved from sitting to standing. You know, little things like that that are so often. We accommodate people all the time at work, we accommodate people all the time in everyday life, yet when it comes to disability, it had to be a legal right granted because those accommodations were so frequently denied.
Maria Ross 14:51
And why? Why do you think those views of disability are so limited and lacking empathy? What do you think it is because I can’t imagine, there’s that many. Horrible people in the world, I like to imagine there’s not that many horrible people in the world, but especially in the workplace. You know, why do people get so angry or so frustrated or so negative about accommodating for disability? What do you think is causing that?
Julie Harris 15:17
I think our human brains and stigma. And I talk about stigma because I think that’s the root of it all. But what it comes down to is, when I knew nothing and was relearning everything, I learned that disabled people were not capable. That’s a stigma that’s tied to a belief that disabled people are less than is tied to a belief that disabled people inherently are not able, and I want to stick on Disable for a second. A lot of times, people say, well, it literally says it in the word disable. And I want to touch on the word the prefix dis. So in the English language, there’s a lot of prefixes that are negative. It’s making the opposite of whatever the main word is. So the word disability comes with a negative prefix, dis, and a lot of people take that to mean that it inherently means that it’s describing something that is not able, that that person is less able, that person is incapable at this point. And the it’s important to look at what the usage of the prefix dis is. So if we talk about something that’s assembled, that’s something that’s put together, it may have been given to you assembled. It may have been reassembled. You know, we don’t know. It was just assembled somehow. If you say that something has been disassembled, that means it was taken apart. It was acted upon by something external to take it apart. Something that’s unassembled is just not put together. It may have been taken apart, it may have been disassembled, but when you use unassembled, that just means it is no it is not put together. So disassembled is very different than un in the sense that this means an external action was taken on it, to unassemble it the same that’s the same use when we go to able, disable unable. Unable means you are not able to do something. Or it could be we’re talking about a device the light is unable to cook food. I mean, actually lights sometimes could cook food. So maybe that’s a bad example. But the word unable just means you’re not able to do something, or a thing isn’t able to do something. If you put dis on it, it means that something is acted upon it to make it unable. So if you take out remotes out of I mean, if you take batteries out of a remote, you have disabled that remote. It wasn’t inherently unable. The remote is able if it has what it needs, disabling it by removing batteries is an external act to make it unable. So I think that’s really important differentiation when we’re talking about disability. And I really think that the term disability is accurate, an accurate and correct description, because it’s something externally acting upon, whether it’s a genetic condition which is still external of it’s even if it’s internal of your body, it’s something that’s acting upon your body to make it not able. So I
Maria Ross 18:10
love that point that you’re making, though about like it’s still able. It just might be able to function in a different way. And I think, you know, you and I both suffered from brain injuries, and how many times did we hear the word like strategies, strategies to deal with whatever issues we had? Right? It was about finding a new way around the obstacles so we could still accomplish our goals. And I think we forget that and why there is such a, such a misunderstanding and such a, you know, like, you know, a lack of empathy, quite honestly, from other people in the workplace, because, because they don’t understand it, they feel like someone’s given being given preferential or special treatment, when really what’s being done is just helping someone find a new route. You know, for you, think of it like a GPS helping someone just find a different route than your route to get to the same destination,
Julie Harris 19:06
right in the workplace. One way that I describe it when, especially when it comes to preferential treatment, that’s what I’m going to stick on here, because that’s a really, really common pushback against giving somebody accommodations. Well, other people are going to want it too. Other people are going to feel like it’s unfair. No, this is a preferential treatment. Well, there are positions in the workplace where they reasonably require three screens, so they’re given three monitors and a laptop and maybe a computer. You know, there’s some that don’t need that, so they only have a laptop, maybe one screen. There’s some people who have standing desks, there’s some people who have private offices. There’s some people who have some people who work in main areas. We accommodate for specific needs all the time in the workplace, we don’t look at it as preferential treatment, because we recognize that. This is we’re giving them what they need to do their job. That’s the same thing with disabilities. Just because one person needs a little bit of a different thing doesn’t mean it’s preferential treatment. We’re giving them exactly what they need to do their job, right?
Maria Ross 20:12
Well, and I think it goes back to that whole misunderstanding of equality versus equity. You know, equality is giving everybody the exact same thing, and equity is about giving people what they need to operate at the same level, which is a different thing. But we’re going to take a quick break, and when we come back, we’re going to talk about what the stigma of disability does to impact the effectiveness and efficiency of your workers, because this is an important point to make, that it actually impacts performance when your workplace is not inclusive of disability, we’ll be right back. Okay, we’re back on the empathy edge podcast, talking to Julie Harris, and we were just going to get into a conversation about what the result of stigma does to impact an individual who’s disabled and how it impacts their ability to perform for your organization and meet the goals of your organization, which, you know, if we’re being really crass about it, it’s all about enabling people to do their best work so that the organization can meet its goals. And when we’re not inclusive of disability, it actually impacts our bottom line performance. So tell us a little bit about what stigma does to an individual when they’re feeling under stress, when they’re feeling misunderstood, where they’re when they’re struggling to be, when they’re struggling to belong. Yes, this
Julie Harris 21:37
is so important to discuss, to really improve inclusivity of the disabled population in the workplace, and the most obvious and clear cut results are people don’t ask for accommodations, or when they do ask for accommodations, they get them denied because of the stigma. They know that they’re constantly fighting against stigma, so they’re trying to work twice as hard, 10 times as hard, sometimes to show that they mean even missing one letter they’re scared of, you know, having one error because, oh my goodness, are they going to tie that to my disability? Somehow people don’t want to disclose their disability, and if they don’t want to disclose their disability, it means they’re not asking for the help that they actually need, which common sense says that’s going to leave you unsupported, or at least under supported. But the problem is, oftentimes, that’s the only way that you can keep your job. So those are the most main and direct results. However, it gets even deeper, where stigma leads to shame. When you have such a stigmatized part of your identity, then it’s nearly impossible to not feel some level of shame around it. When you feel shame, you start to shame. Shame tells your brain that you’re unsafe for being who you are, that you’re unsafe for having that part of your identity. And so when you feel unsafe for actually being who you are, you start to develop survival skills just to exist. Some of those things are people pleasing. People pleasing isn’t necessarily beneficial in the workplace. Or perfectionism, we can say perfectionism sometimes is beneficial, however, taken too far, isn’t helpful to anybody, the person doing it, or other people on their team, collaborators. Sometimes it results in hyper independence. Hyper independence is absolutely not good in the workplace and in certain situations, it could be good, but taken too far, it’s going to be detrimental to the success of a team and a company. And so there’s the obvious ones that are tied to disclosure and accommodations and asking for support and receiving support, but then there’s the less obvious ones that are stigma results in shame inevitably, and it results in your employees developing survival skills that are not beneficial in the long term and not beneficial when taken into everyday life and everyday interactions.
Maria Ross 23:54
Okay, I’m gonna totally link in the show notes to an episode or two that we’ve done around psychological safety, because it’s the same point. It’s about keeping people in a state of cognitive distress so that they can’t use their higher level executive skills, which is what is needed to perform and achieve and get things done and meet the needs of the business. And if we create this environment for people where, cognitively, they’re constantly under stress because they are afraid, to your point, because they’re being hyper independent, because they are, you know, chasing perfectionism, which is, you know, we as we know a myth. It’s going to impair their ability to do the work like bottom lining it is we have to do everything we can to keep our workers in an environment where they can unleash the productivity and the innovation and the creativity required by their higher level executive skills and when the brain is under stress. You know, science. Shows us that we actually cannot. We’re only concerned with survival at that point. So I’m so glad you brought this up, because you know, and I’m actually going to link to another episode I did with Michael Bach, who talked about the cost of exclusion in a business, what it is dollars and cents, what is it costing businesses when they are not inclusive, and this is a very similar thing. We were talking about it in the context of LGBTQ plus, but any group that is feeling this kind of stress and this kind of pressure on themselves in the workplace is not performing to their fullest capabilities for you, and if you really want to unleash their potential and maximize, you know, their value to the organization. It’s in your best interest as a leader and as a company to create that inclusive environment for them and then just unleash them and let them, you know, perform like you’ve never seen. Exactly
Julie Harris 25:57
put people in an environment where their cognitive resources can go towards their work, not too survivable, not towards mitigating sensory stimulation, not to navigating unhealthy management or healthy cares, just if they can truly put their cognitive resources to the work at hand. Primarily, which, of course we know it’s not gonna be 100% but primarily, if we can’t mitigate all the other external factors, they’re going to be your best employees, period. Absolutely, absolutely
Maria Ross 26:30
okay, so as so many good things in this episode, but as we wrap up, can you give us some practical examples and actions that leaders and employers can take to unleash, unleash that potential of their disabled workforce. What have you seen that works really well? What have you seen that has backfired? And what would be sort of the final tips you would give to folks listening who are like, I don’t know if we’re actually inclusive to disability. How can I go about auditing that?
Julie Harris 27:04
Yes, good questions and actionable items are
Maria Ross 27:07
a lot of questions. Are Sorry, that was, that was like a five part question. But if that’s okay, tackle whichever part you make
Julie Harris 27:13
the basics. Do some do some basic education for especially HR, but leaders, employees as a whole, around what disability is, especially when it comes to the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act and ensure that it’s somebody who actually knows what they’re talking about. Just because somebody’s a lawyer doesn’t mean they know what they’re talking about. Just because somebody is in HR, even working with accommodations, doesn’t mean that they know. So make sure it’s somebody who has the disability perspective and the employee perspective, so that you have education around how to keep the employers protected legally, but also while doing what the ADA was meant to do, which is provide for employees. So that’s number one. But beyond that, training is not going to just automatically remove stigma and human bias. So the next step is to accept that you have bias, accept that you have stigma related to disability. Because you are human, it doesn’t mean you’re bad, just accept it as a fact, and then do what you can to build into your processes make them stigma free, so that human error is far less likely. For example, accommodation specifically, if somebody comes to HR and asks for an accommodation, do you have a well defined accommodation process that is one, in line with the ADA, but two, ensures that stigma doesn’t lead as stigma is leading. You’re not doing the best for the employees, and you’re not doing the best. Doing the best for the company. So build processes that are stigma free. And I know that’s kind of vague, but there’s a product that I love that does it for you. It’s called disclo, D, i, s, c, l, o, and it has an accommodation process that is stigma free. It guides you through it. When you’re not sure how to talk to somebody about disability, it kind of gives you little tips. So that’s one way I like to do it, is just refer people to that product, but really build into your processes disability, inclusion without stigma. And you have you have to accept that you have bias to be able to do that effectively. And then the last actionable tip that I find is most successful is to make it to have situations where people who are higher up in your company disclose their disabilities, whether it’s something like ADHD or they just recently got diagnosed with something you know, or and sometimes that’s a huge risk for them, but while it’s risk for them, it becomes far less risky as more people come out and disclose and it becomes more inclusive, because you start to see, oh my goodness, this person who’s really intelligent and really capable has a disability. Wow, I it changes everybody’s view of disability, and it makes it seem more safe, of course. You have to have a safe situation to allow that to occur. But I find it really, really effective when leaders disclose their disabilities, and not just, not just for show, but to start a a more inclusive culture
Maria Ross 30:15
around to be, to be the model that correct. This is okay to be vulnerable about this. This is okay to admit this. And often, you know, with something like this, it’s often the more you know. Again, like you said, Only if you’re comfortable disclosing. We don’t want to, like force everyone to do this. But the more, the higher up you are in the organization, the more power you wield. It becomes, even more effective if those people can admit that they have, you know, they might have issues with certain things, they might have a disability, they might, you know, and even when we’re talking about more broadly, like they’re blind spots, being able to admit that, that’s what we mean by being a vulnerable leader. We don’t mean you’re just you fall apart. We we mean that you just admit there’s things you’re going through too, as well, and then when you’re a high performer, you’re showing that you can do both, and you’re showing that you can have a disability and still perform at the highest level, and you normalize that, and that actually that action helps foster empathy, because then people go, Oh, now I know someone who has that disability, and I see how they operate in the world, and they’re, you know, they’re killing it, or whatever the case may be. And so the more that we can provide the representation and provide the modeling and do it boldly and do it with no apology, the better off. You know, people might not say something to that leader right away, but it’s going to impact them, and it’s going to impact the way they feel at work, exactly
Julie Harris 31:49
and something else for leaders, especially if they’re leaders of a company that has a board of directors or something that they’re reporting to, sometimes these leaders have their own fears about disclosing. So even when you disclose, to disclose about I’m afraid of disclosing too, because I’m afraid of being judged. Despite my history of success, despite the clear evidence, if I disclose, are people now going to judge me? And so it doesn’t matter. I have clients of all different levels, all different income brackets, all different races, ages, and we are dealing with the same thing. It doesn’t matter how successful you are, how much history you have, if you’ve been to companies which one of my clients has still afraid to disclose their disability and ask for support. So when you disclose, if you’re high up, to even disclose the really vulnerable parts that, hey, this is hard for me too. I’m afraid of the blowback as well. Yeah, yeah,
Maria Ross 32:40
yeah. I remember after I had my brain injury and I was getting my business back on its feet again, I wasn’t sure whether I should disclose what I’d gone through. And just from you know, my work as a brand strategist back then, what I realized was, by disclosing it, I actually ended up attracting more of the clients I wanted to attract because they saw something in me that was, you know, about resilience and about grit and about, you know, overcoming adversity, and that actually attracted them to me in my business. But I did have some people say, Oh, or, you know, you’re out talking about your brain injury. Don’t you think that’s going to impact if people want to work with you as a client. And I was like, well, it might impact certain people that are not my ideal clients, and probably people I don’t want to work with, but for so many others, it actually became a magnet. And I think that that’s what that can do for leaders and people in positions of power, is then you create a following, and you create a loyalty where people know that it’s safe to be who they are, and those people will go to the ends of the earth. For you, that’s my experience as well. Awesome, awesome. And kind of just to wrap this up, I just want to go back to the fact that if anyone, and I doubt anyone listening to this podcast, would have this perspective, but I know that there’s skeptics out there who might say, well, given all this work I have to do around, you know, creating an inclusive environment, maybe it’s better if I don’t hire disabled people, right? And I love I want to bring everyone back to the point we mentioned earlier, which is, most people are dealing with something so good luck trying to find the perfect human being who has no disabilities, who has no blind spots, who has no areas that they need accommodation for, because I really don’t think that person exists.
Julie Harris 34:34
Oh no, there’s no human. I mean, when we ask for our meal to be a little bit different at restaurant, that’s an accommodation when we’re going to show up late, when our computer is having issues with their technology issues, we’re asking for accommodations on all of those things. So all the time that there’s accommodations are a human thing. It’s not just for disabilities. It just had to be granted legally,
Maria Ross 34:53
right, right? Unfortunately, it’s had to be granted legally. Yes, yes. Well, Julie, thank you so much. For sharing your very personal story, and also your phenomenal work around being an advocate and helping companies and leaders navigate this and create that inclusive environment so that they can help disabled employees, disabled workers, do their best work and contribute to the organization’s success. So I will have all your links in the show notes, especially the link to your new book that is out now boldly belong the power of being you in a disabling society. I will have the link to that as well. It’s available in all the places. But for folks on the go who won’t be accessing the show notes, where’s one place they can find out more about you and your work,
Julie Harris 35:39
accessmyability.org that has everything to find about me and links to everywhere else that you can learn about me.
Maria Ross 35:48
Awesome access my ability all one word.org, well, I hope folks will check it out. Thank you again for your time and your insights today. Thank you so much for having me and thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do, rate, review, follow and share with a friend or colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathyedge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop, and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice. Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.