Podcast Episodes Archive - Page 5 of 25 - Red Slice | Speaker, Author, Leadership Trainer

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Diana Cutaia: How Psychological Safety Boosts Performance in Sports – and at Work

What do psychological safety, your team’s performance, and sports coaching have in common? Today, you’re going to find out how belonging helps you innovate and perform beyond even what you thought possible.

Today, Diana Cutaia defines what we mean by “peace” and that it is more than just the absence of violence. She also breaks down psychological safety and how both of these concepts are related. We talk about why psychological safety is such a buzzword, and why some organizations are merely ticking a box and do not truly understand how creating an environment of belonging unleashes potential. We discuss how a leader’s individual behavior is important, but how to go further and address the environment as a whole. Diana shares a few fascinating epiphanies some clients have had when finally understanding what belonging really means. How to create a culture of psychological safety, and how it impacts performance and risk-taking.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Creating a better environment doesn’t happen accidentally. You have to remove the bad and intentionally replace it with something good.
Move away from trying to make people “feel” like they belong. We just want people to belong. This is a shift in language we can begin to make today.
Command and control leadership is not effective in every situation. If your goal is to help people develop new skills, you’ve got to find a way to reach people and create an environment in which they can learn.

“Psychological safety is not just this idea of the absence of harm, but it is the repair of harm and then the repair of systems that perpetuated that harm.”

— Diana Cutaia

Episode References:

The Empathy Edge podcast on psychological safety:
Minette Norman: Psychological Safety
Susan Hunt Stevens: The ROI Of Psychological Safety
Red Slice blog: What does psychological abuse at work look like?

About Diana Cutaia, President & Founder, Coaching Peace

Diana Cutaia founded Coaching Peace in 2012, but the work started for her 20 years earlier. Today her clients range from school districts to national organizations to global companies. The focus of Coaching Peace is to create positive and safe cultures that empower its members to lead with empathy and understanding.

Connect with Diana:

Coaching Peace: https://coachingpeace.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianacutaia/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CoachingPeaceConsultingLlc/

Instagram: https://instagram.com/coachingpeacelive

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com

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Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Diana Cutaia 02:17

Thank you, Maria. Appreciate it. I’m excited to be here as well.

Maria Ross 02:20

I mean, we’ve been talking before recording started about being Italians, being from New York, being from Queens, oh my gosh, so many things in common. And, of course, trying to help the world be a more empathetic and compassionate and human centered place. So very excited to

Diana Cutaia 02:35

present. Yeah.

Maria Ross 02:37

So before we kick off, let’s talk a little bit about your story. How did you even get into this work? Tell us a little bit about coaching piece? And what are your goals with the work that you’re doing?

Diana Cutaia 02:49

That’s like, you’re like did you do that one minute. Go in there around it. But, you know, I started coaching piece because I saw the fact that the ways in which we were coaching, in particular sport at the time, were not we were directed around peace. And when I first started coaching peace, I thought that peace was just the absence of violence, whether that violence was structural, cultural, direct, whatever it might be, I thought, oh, peace is the opposite of war, right? Peace is when there’s no violence, there’s peace. And what what I found in the work that we’ve done is that peace is actually yes, it’s the absolute absence of violence, but it is also the presence of empathy. It is also the presence of unconditional safety, the presence of of belonging, right, that there have to be things that are there that actually create that peace, and that there are ways in which we can coach that. And when I started this business, you know, 12 years ago, I thought because I came from an athletic background, I was an athletic director, I taught at a college, around sport based youth development. We were training coaches all around the country to look at sport differently. I thought, oh, that’s all I’m going to do. I’m going to stay directed in this very, you know, kind of little niche around sport niche around sport. And I realized that many of the work that we did could apply to any group, any group that when you’re thinking about it, it might be you know, the outcomes might be different or working toward is different, but really, people are people, and how do we create environments where people are truly feeling like they are in a place of peace, and what that looks like and peace not being the absence of conflict, because conflict isn’t necessary and important at times. But it’s how we create that, that state of peace.

Maria Ross 04:48

Well, there’s so many parallels between I’ve had several sports psychologists, I cite Steve Kerr in my forthcoming book, the empathy of dilemma, because there’s so many parallels because when Ever you’re trying to get a group of people motivated to accomplish a common mission? That could be sport. That could be work. That could be a nonprofit that could be your parent teacher group, at your school, whatever it is. It’s about like a group dynamic. And how do you interact with each other and communicate with each other in a way that’s productive, and in a way that people can show up and be who they are and bring their contributions. So there’s lots of parallels. Yeah, I

Diana Cutaia 05:26

love totally 100%. Okay, so

Maria Ross 05:28

I know that with your work, especially you talk a lot about psychological safety. And we’ve done a few episodes on that. I’ll link to that in the show notes. But why do you think that’s such a big buzzword right now? And And in your opinion, who is doing it well? And who is pretending? And how do we even tell?

Diana Cutaia 05:46

Oh, gosh, you’re telling secrets here today? Oh, we

Maria Ross 05:49

are we’re spilling the tea,

Diana Cutaia 05:50

it lets them as the Gen Z or say, or say we’re giving main character energy today. Um, so I think that, you know, when we talk about psychological safety, we talk about any safety around, you know, an environment, we often think about safety in the sense of like, am I going to be hurt or harmed in some way. And as much as we’d like to create spaces where people cannot be hurt or harmed in any way? Physically, right, that should be a priority. Even that happens, right? Where accidents, things happen, you know, around that, that state of psychological safety, right? Will I feel like we talk about like, will my dignity be valued, respect, honored? My very, that, you know, very nature of me who I am? Will I be in a space where I feel like I can voice my opinions where I can say things, we often think in absolutes. And what I mean by that is this very binary, you either create an environment of psychological safety or you don’t, right. And that we think that psychological safety, physical safety, whatever it means, being means that there is the absence of harm, there is no harm that can be created here. It is not that there is always harm that will happen because we’re human beings, we’re flawed, we’re figuring out the world, right? There’s, there’s no perfection in that. psychological safety is not just this idea of the absence of harm, but it is the repair of harm. And then the repair of systems that perpetuated that harm. And those are the things that I think we need to begin to think about more, you know, we might say that, Oh, I, we did something and that really hurt your feelings, or that created an environment, we felt like, oh, I don’t think I can speak up. And I go private Lee to you. And I apologize around that. And we’ve repaired that in some ways. But the reason why I did that might be because the environment that I’m in contributes to the ways in which I respond and react. And I’m not willing to actually address that system. And that’s the thing that we have to begin to address. And it’s hard. But that’s the thing that we have to we have to address. So who’s doing well, who’s not doing? Well, I think everybody, to some extent trying in, you know, that environment, I think, when we don’t do it well is when we’re on willing to actually kind of turn the mirror and say, Wait a second, not only how did I contribute to this, but as a leader? How am I contributing to the conditions in which this happened? How am I contributing to the system and perpetuating the system that allowed this to be present and to happen? That I think is, is the thing that we are struggling to do? You know, we struggled to do, which is goes back to sport like, yeah, that we struggle to do with coaches, right? Coaches, why are managers not doing it? Because coaches also don’t do it? Either. We don’t walk into a locker room and say, You know what, gosh, I didn’t call that timeout when I should have today. And, uh, you know what, I really messed up on calling that play. Yeah, I shouldn’t. And you know, I’m not bringing the energy today, I really should have brought some more energy. We don’t do that. Because we have this ethic, that now I have to be the absolute leader. And that leader is flawless and makes no mistakes. And it doesn’t matter if I make a mistake, because I’m not going to call myself out on that. Because I lose power. And that’s the difference. That’s the thing that we want to change and make, right? There’s so

Maria Ross 09:36

much to unpack in what you just said. So first of all, I just want to point out your definition of peace and your definition of psychological safety are very similar in the fact that it’s not just the absence of something. It’s what are you replacing that with? Right? So a lot of companies talk about like, we don’t do this. We don’t we’re not racist. We’re not inequitable. We’re not this we’re but what are you what You replacing those negative actions with intentionally? What kind of environment? Are you trying to create that, that you’re hoping just doesn’t happen by happy accident? And related? It’s this idea that the individual behavior and repair is fine. It’s good, we should do that. But also, what is that environment that’s contributed to make that something that was that occurred to make that something that seemed acceptable in the moment at the time? And I don’t think we address that enough. And again, like I see so many parallels to racism and racial inequity, this idea of like, well, if I’m just nice to someone, then that solves it. Right? And no, there’s there’s a whole system around that there’s a whole environment around that, that we we can’t look away from. And so this idea of creating a psychologically safe environment is not just about what you do as an individual leader, or what you think you do one on one with people, it’s what kind of an environment are you creating for everyone else that’s swimming in that pool, so to speak,

Diana Cutaia 11:04

like, well, and it’s also like, when you bring up even racism, the idea of I say, I’m not racist, then if someone says you just engage in racist behavior, right, then I immediately am going to get defensive and be like, but I’m not racist. And the fact is, is that it’s this finality right like this, this one thing that then puts up this barrier, as opposed to saying, I am actively working to be anti racist. And someone says, You’ve just engaged in racist behavior, or what you just said, is perpetuating racism. I can say, oh, I need to correct that. What education do I need to do for myself? What repair do I need to do in this space? What do I need to learn to understand what that is, there is a reciprocal engagement that happens, where I’m this series of kind of learning that to be honest, that the generation coming up right now wants that they’re the generation is pushing us to do that. Yep. And, you know, we have to, we have to do that in some ways. And we also have to do it because the right thing to do,

Maria Ross 12:12

it’s exactly, well, I mean,

Diana Cutaia 12:14

you make the business case for this, and I’m like, No, I’m not gonna make the business case of being a good human now,

Maria Ross 12:18

right? Well, to be fair, though, that’s exactly what I did with my book. And what I do with this podcast, and what I did with my TEDx talk, is I was trying to get to the skeptics, because I felt like the moral imperatives weren’t working. So it’s like, okay, if we’ve got to talk about what’s in it for you to get you to transformation, because then once you’re empathetic, and once you are creating that environment, you can’t unsee that. So if I can, if I can get people to get there, through whatever, you know, whatever means necessary. That’s kind of the work that we do. And so that’s why there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of data, there’s a lot of research, there’s a lot of case studies out there, showing the quote, unquote, ROI. I even have, you know, a keynote talk called the ROI of empathy, just to help people understand that, yes, this is, this is good for society, but it’s actually also good for your business. And if that’s how I need to get you in the room to have the conversation, I know you’re going to be transformed from the outside. And because I’ve seen it happen. Right. So I think that’s a lot of this work is, is getting people to understand that and I’d love to hear from you with your clients. You know, what are what are the the issues they’re coming to you with? And sort of what is the before that they’re dealing with? And then what is the after that they seek? Yeah,

Diana Cutaia 13:35

that’s a great question. I think the before is, sometimes folks come to check a box. We’re supposed to do this work. We’re supposed to care about people. So, you know, heard one, right?

Maria Ross 13:51

I’ve heard this is a new thing. Her Gen Z loves this. So yeah, we’re trying to hire more younger people. We

Diana Cutaia 13:56

don’t care. But yeah, exactly. And I think like that, so sometimes they for that, and they say like, Hey, we’re, you know, we’ve got to do this stuff to make people feel like they belong. I think our goal is,

Maria Ross 14:13

can I just stop you for a second? I love that phrase to make people feel like they belong, rather than to help them belong. I love I love that different just,

Diana Cutaia 14:22

that’s yeah, that’s been that’s my biggest thing. We, I constantly say that, like, we have to stop saying, make people feel like they belong. Because we just want people to be belong. Just yeah. Have people belong? Yeah. Right. And, and it’s not like it’s so easy. Like just, you know, like, yeah, we’re a diverse group of people on a planet who have different experiences, different values, different ways of being like, I’m not telling folks like, it’s so easy to blend humanity In a way, yeah, it’s also not so hard. Right? There are ways to do that. And if you say like, wow, I kind of felt like I belong there a little bit, I feel like I belong. Yeah, I guess, you know, in that space instead of I belong, yeah. Right. Like, oh, I really belong in this place, you know, and what makes me feel like I belong in this place. Yeah. Which is so important. So thank you for that, like the call out on it. Because it’s so absolutely important that we shift that language.

Maria Ross 15:31

And I love that that because that’s a shift you can make the minute they come to you of like, this is what we think we want our outcome to be. And it’s like, is it I don’t think that’s, you don’t want to make them feel like it like you’re like, you’ve put this spell over them that makes them feel like everything’s okay when it’s not, but you actually want to make them belong, and help them belong? You know,

Diana Cutaia 15:50

it’s it, I’ll give you a story that I think is really important. There’s a about almost 20 years ago, now, we use juggling, like actual juggling as a way of like teaching a whole host of variety of skills. And about 20 years ago, I was doing a workshop and someone walked into workshop with a limb difference. So they had only one accessible hand that they could use in the struggling. And I made adjustments during the workshop in order to make sure that they were there. But it was clear that I was making adjustments in order to do that. And it was at that moment that I felt like, I’m never going to do that again. I’m never going to not know who’s coming in the room. And I met my wife 10 years ago, and she had said something around like belonging is this place where people don’t feel welcome. They feel like you were waiting for them. And that’s the moment that like, I was like, that’s it. So I’ll never know exactly who’s going to walk into a room all the time. So I need to make sure that I’m always planning, and I’m creating an environment that no matter who walks in that room, they know they belong in that room. So sometimes in our workshops, we will ask, does anyone you know have any physical limitations, anything, even just some like auditory or sensory things? Like, we want to make sure that we are as prepared as possible for the folks that are walking into the room. But then I’m also just educating myself all the time to make sure like, how do I do this? You know, how do I create an environment where no matter who’s there, you know, you belong there. And I was waiting for you. I knew you were coming.

Maria Ross 17:39

I love this because I and if if I have to correct myself, I will in the intro, but I believe it’s manette Norman, who has been on the show, she wrote the book, The boldly inclusive leader, and she talks about treating it like you’re hosting a dinner party. If you had an event where you were hosting a dinner party, you would be thinking about what dietary restrictions do some people have write? Who should sit next to each other? And who shouldn’t? How can I make the room smell better? How can I make it more inviting? How can I arrange seating, you think of all these things before you have an event, or you throw a dinner party and she talks about inclusivity? In the same way it’s being proactive about understanding who’s in the room. So to your end, you just raised it so eloquently. So you feel like they were waiting for you. And it’s not a commendation. It’s not coddling, it’s just enabling people to feel safe and feel like they belong. So that yeah, so they can do their best work. So they can innovate so they can collaborate so they can perform in the way that you want your team to perform. And so I would love like, kind of related to that, with your clients and with your work. What have you seen people? What are the big epiphanies they have when they realize the link between psychological safety and performance? Can you give us any examples?

Diana Cutaia 18:57

I think the biggest links necessarily that folks see between like, creating an environment where people know they belong, is they see more innovation and risk taking, that folks are less afraid of failing, less afraid of making a mistake. They’re more willing to kind of say like, let’s try it. Let’s see what happens. And in that space, then folks are like, oh, like, we didn’t even know what our potential was. Until we actually started to step outside of the things like we have a lot of very high performing groups that have this kind of like, almost they hold themselves back in some ways, but because they’re high performing, in the sense that they’re bringing in a ton of revenue or making you know the impact that they want to make. They believe that like they’ve kept their potential. They’re like, we’re where we need to be the Okay. And then you give them you the open of the space where now people feel like I can take a little bit more risks, I could challenge you on things. And now you see that aperture widened so much and the potential, not just like, grow up, but grow horizontally because you’re allowing other folks and other voices to be heard. And acknowledged in that way. And they’re like, Oh, I didn’t even know. Right, you know, it’s tightening. I

Maria Ross 20:31

don’t even know that that was an outcome I could get, right, like

Diana Cutaia 20:34

a Friday after we get there. But you’re like, No, you can get there. Because we didn’t set where the finish line was. Right? You were moving it all the time and figure figuring it out. And that by you moving it, you’re like, you know what, we got 100 yards today, can we go to 1/3? In the same amount of time? Like, yeah, let’s see, I don’t know. And if we can’t, then we pull it back, we figure out what we can do differently. But that gives them the ability to truly be innovative.

Maria Ross 21:07

That’s just fun. I have so many more questions for you. But I know we’re gonna run out of time. So can you talk to me about maybe what’s one of your favorite projects you’ve worked on, or clients you’ve worked on where you saw, like, a marked impact and a marked difference from them coming to you, maybe they came to, you know, you know, we talked earlier about sometimes they come to you to tick a box, sometimes they are coming to you because they want to do the right thing, or they want to change your leadership paradigm, or they want to create that culture that everybody wants to work for. But what has been one of your favorites that you can recall, or even favorite moments, where you’ve seen again, that that that impact of understanding what psychological safety can do for your, for your organization, and for your team? Yeah,

Diana Cutaia 21:52

it was a great example of a we were training some football coaches one time and this was going back, it’s my most favorite story, because it’s the most impact. And we were actually using juggling as a way to kind of teach to teach folks how hard it is to learn, right, and the just the mental gymnastics and emotional things that we go through, when we’re learning something new. And a bunch of other things around motivation, stuff like that. I had this one football coach, who in my best Boston accent was said, I’ve been coaching for 45 years. And you know, in the middle of like, we only got to like two tennis balls, we’re juggling, she gets so upset, and he kind of throws both tennis balls down. And he’s like, I’m required to be here. So I’m gonna stay. But this is, you know, expletive, expletive. And I’m not doing this. Yeah. And I said, Okay. And I was very nice. I was like, Do you want a bottle of water, like, you can just sit here, like, do whatever you want, like I wasn’t, you know, I didn’t want to shame him. I didn’t want to call him out in any way. Like, that’s fine. Um, then he was like, at times, he was kind of picking on the other coaches, like, you know, Jimmy, you can’t do this, like, look at you, you know, whatever. And I was like, I totally appreciate the fact that you’re not, you don’t want to participate, I just ask that you don’t interrupt the experience of other people, you know, and in the back of my mind, I’m like, Oh, you’re just playing into exactly what I want you to play into. But that’s where I was, like, letting go through. And at the end, we’re debriefing the activity and one of the other coaches, and he’s sitting there cross armed, and he’s not paying attention, you know, around and one of the other coaches was like, you know, I was really surprised at how hard that was, you know, given the fact that I’m an athlete, and I really like, it was going through my mind, like, what, why am I having such a difficult time with this? And he’s like, I really wanted to be like, I don’t know what this is about. And I don’t know why I’m doing this. And you know, all that. And another coach, I had asked him, like, what do you do when you get when you got frustrated? You know, he’s like, honestly, I was saying nice things about you in my head. He’s like, I didn’t know what you know. And each coach started to talk about how challenging it was for them to learn and what they were doing. And the coach who had sat down and was, you know, really being disruptive. He raises his hand. And he’s like, well, crap, he’s like, I get it. He’s like, I, if you would have said to me, when we were doing this, Hey, I taught you how to do this. Do it, just get it done. He’s like, I would have responded even worse, he’s like, but I was in a place where I didn’t know the skills and I didn’t want to be embarrassed in front of, you know, I’m the one that has the most coaching experience here. He’s like, I didn’t want to be embarrassed. He’s like, so I act out the same way my kids act out. I was responding the exact same way. And I would have labeled that kid a problem. And I would have said you’re not coachable. And he’s like, and now I just realized that I just wasn’t creating, I don’t create all the time that conditions for them to learn. Because all I do is punish them when they don’t get it. He’s like a new are trying to work with me and trying to figure it out. He’s like, but you also just kind of let me like, take a moment and not be part of it. And that, to me is like the always the moment that gets me that always drives me to continue to do this work. Like he got it. We behave in ways sometimes that are even outside of what we want to because the conditions that we’re in, don’t make it safe for us to be anything else. Right? And it was a lesson for me to like, how do I create safety in a place where like your peers are watching you? And what do we do? And how do I create that? We make changes after that? around it. But that is the moment when you’re like, oh, somebody gets it, you know, we’ve had a lot of folks will do workshops around understanding the myth of the meritocracy. And how like, not everybody starts at the same place. Not everybody has the same access. And I’ve had several folks that come back and say, my mind is still blown about that I still I view the world completely differently now. And I’m telling all my other friends to view the world completely differently. So long answer to your question, but like, the often times, we don’t necessarily get to impact the system. We impact enough actors in the system, then it exponentially grows. And we feel like that’s that’s the movement that we’re trying to create. I

Maria Ross 26:53

love everything about that, because it’s this idea of, you know, what is a leaders role. And I, I’m talking, I talked about it in the empathy edge, I talked about it in my keynotes, I’m talking about it in the new book, that leadership has changed the old, simple command and control doesn’t work. For every situation, it’s it’s not going to be effective. And if your goal is to help people perform, if your goal is to help people develop new skills that will be useful to you and the team and the organization, you’ve got to find a way to reach people, you’ve got to find a way to help create the environment so that they can learn. So they want to learn so that they’re not scared to learn. And so that ultimately you get your goals met. And if we want to be really crass about it, it’s so you get your bonus at the end of the year, like I and you know, we talked about this too before about this idea of like, sometimes that moral imperative isn’t enough. But I’ve seen executives who do things for optics, and then they just love the response they get. They’re surprised by the response. They get there. They’re surprised by the lesson that they learn. And they want they want more of it. They’re like get me sorry that I love the way that felt. I love the way that what that resulted in. I love the way my team feels. I love the way that they’re engaged now. And so yeah, let me do more of this and see how it goes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love it so much. Okay, so we could talk for hours, but we’re short on time. So I’m going to put all your links in the show notes. Wonderful. But where’s the best place? If someone’s like exercising right now and listening to us? Where’s the best place they could find out more about you and your work?

Diana Cutaia 28:37

I mean, you know, definitely go to our website coaching piece.com Folks are always welcome to email me at Diana at coaching piece.com and get more information in any way they can.

Maria Ross 28:48

Awesome. Awesome. And can they connect with you on LinkedIn? 100% 100% Okay, I love LinkedIn. I always promote the etiquette. Make sure you send her a note that you heard her on this podcast. 100 personalize your invites. Diana, thank you so much. It was such a pleasure getting to know you and thank you for your friend to help us kind of deconstruct psychological safety a little bit.

Diana Cutaia 29:12

Absolutely. I’ve loved it. appreciate all the work you’re doing. Thanks.

Maria Ross 29:16

And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please share it, rate it, review it, share it with a colleague and friend. And until next time, please remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be calm. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your soup. power use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Andrea Butcher: Balancing Empathy, Accountability, and Vulnerability

The most popular question I get, by far, is how to balance empathy and accountability. often a false impression of empathy that makes us ask this question in the first place.

Today, I’m talking with Andrea Butcher, CEO of HRD, a Leadership Development Company. Andrea is a visionary—she knows how to lead organizations from big picture to execution. Today we talk about what emerging leaders are asking for in leadership development programs, which skills they want to strengthen, and what is vital to help all leaders in today’s landscape be successful. We discuss how the work of leadership is self-development, how empathy and accountability co-exist, and why clear communication is so vital because you can’t hold someone accountable to an expectation that was never set. She shares a lovely story about showing up as yourself, and another about how to respond to someone who has dropped the ball.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Every leader should have a coach. Everyone can benefit from having a safe place to struggle through challenges.
As humans, we connect through weakness and vulnerability. But it takes confidence to feel those emotions and show that vulnerability while still recognizing your worth.
Asking for feedback from trusted employees and advisors is a great path forward in becoming a better leader. It will do a lot to build trust and reinforce the relationship too.

“You can’t hold someone accountable for an expectation that has not been set. So much of the time it’s the lack of clarity that’s getting in the way.”

— Andrea Butcher

Episode References:

The Empathy Edge Podcast: Claude Silver: Leading With Heart At Vayner Media
The Empathy Edge Podcast: Anna Liotta: Understanding Generational Codes
Executive Coach Ed Batista article on empathy and accountability

About Andrea Butcher, CEO, HRD

Andrea is a visionary—she knows how to lead organizations from big picture to execution. She is a dynamic speaker, executive coach, and facilitator. As the CEO of HRD – A Leadership Development Company, she leads a national team of expert facilitators and coaches and drives the organization’s growth strategy. She also hosts a daily and weekly leadership podcast, Being [at Work] and is the author of The Power in the Pivot (Red Thread Publishing 2022) and HR Kit for Dummies (Wiley 2023). In 2020, she was recognized by the Indianapolis Women’s Journal as a Woman of Influence.

Andrea’s work spans organizations of all sizes and industries all over the world; she has experience in global HR positions, consulting, operations, and executive roles for private and public organizations.

Andrea is also the co-founder and President of Next Gen Talent, a program specifically designed to equip emerging HR leaders for success.

Connect with Andrea:

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Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/andrea.w.moore.3

Andrea’s speaking page: https://hrdleadership.com/andrea-butcher-speaker/

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

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Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Andrea Butcher 02:42

Oh, my gosh, all of my very favorite things to talk about. This is going to be fun.

Maria Ross 02:48

This is awesome. And we should mention that you also have a podcast that we will want folks to check out. So tell us a little bit about that as being at work. Yeah.

Andrea Butcher 02:57

It’s the leadership podcast. So I’ve been in the leadership development executive coaching space for a long, long time and really wanted a forum to capture stories. So I asked every guest, tell me about a pivotal moment that taught you a lot about yourself and your leadership. And now six years later, what I have found is every single story becomes this really great leadership lesson. But that’s how we package it. So the show is being at work, as you said, yeah, check it out. I also do every single day, which is not for the faint of heart every single day, I do a daily dose of leadership. So there is a lot of content within that feed. I love

Maria Ross 03:34

it. And we’ll put a link in the show notes for that. But I’m gonna take a step back and find out your story as I do with every guest. How did you get to this work? And what are you so passionate about within this

Andrea Butcher 03:45

one it funny when you look back and see how all the dots connected and all those things that you wanted to work out not working out such blessings in disguise. And I have a daughter who’s a senior in college right now. And she’s so driven and so focused and conscientious and so she feels like she has to have her thing. And I just keep laughing? No.

Maria Ross 04:08

I never had something I constantly was like opportunity to opportunity. Like Thank God, I live in the era we live in that I didn’t have to pick a career and do it till I retired. I

Andrea Butcher 04:18

know exactly. Well, who knows what they’re doing ever. It’s like every day is a new adventure. So I feel so fortunate Maria to get to do the work that I do. That’s very much the attitude I have around it, it is a blessing. So as I look back on my career I in college I have with a psychology major, I’ve always been fascinated by why people do what they do. And so, psychology 101 blew my mind. Oh my gosh, I my parents were school teachers. So I don’t have a business background. And I didn’t know the business world or corporate or but you know, now that I see my I saw my parents leading in a school setting and actually grew up in a really small community. So I had an idea As a teacher, and wow, like, I can see from like my early years, I see those roots of people and development and potential and curiosity around what makes someone tick and what motivates someone. And so I was the psych major. And my plan was to get a PhD in Clinical Psychology. Well, it’s really competitive into those programs. So I had a professor that said, Andrea, you know, the other little nugget from this is listening to those voices, those like random voices that I had this random professor that said to me, you really liked your industrial organizational psychology class, have you thought about human resources? What’s that, like? That sounds awful. I was at I was in Indiana State at the time in Indiana State has a master’s in human resource development. He’s like, well just just go and talk to them and check it out. And so because I had no idea what I was going to do, I went and had a conversation. And the next thing I knew, there was a graduate assistantship program. And so I applied, I got it. So I was so fortunate to have my masters paid for and got a master’s in human resource development, which really taught me a lot about organizational leadership, organizational effectiveness, org development, and I fell in love with it, like, wow, this is about, like helping people be the best version of themselves in the workplace. And so that really set me on a course I when I entered the job force then like, right, the workforce right after my master’s, it was wide open, and I had lots of opportunities. The master’s degree in HR is very different than it was today. And I took a role with a company called premier for now in Chicago, because in the interview process, the hiring manager asked me, well, you know, we’re based in London, so would you be okay, with international travel? Like, are you kidding? 23 years old, I’m single, yeah, of course, that would be okay with international travel. And so I did. So for the first eight years of my career, I did globe, I did global HR for this electronics distribution company. And the company was growing and expanding. And we had really progressive leadership investing in leaders all over the world. And so I got exposed to and certified in so many programs disc and MBTI, and DTI and career ladders and change leadership. And I mean, you name it. I mean, that’s just off the top of my head, like for really foundational tools and assessments. And I had an incredible mentor who put me in opportunities that were my experience level I should never have had, but he saw the potential and the enthusiasm in me. And it’s really set me up then to be able to consult. So I went from that internal role then to leadership development consulting, and for the next than 10 years really did that at an executive level, got an executive coaching certification and just honed that craft. I went back into corporate in 2014, I had an opportunity to lead HR and talent for a large security business. And I was doing all this executive coaching as a consultant, but felt a lot of impostor thought because I had never led at that level. And it was, it was really interesting. It was a tough culture, it was very male dominated. I had a leader who espouse a set of values that he didn’t live. So I learned a lot of lessons going through a lot of adversity. But I’m grateful for that time. Yeah, because it then set me up to in 20 2017, I joined HRD, as the President of the business and have had just so much fun. Maria, over the last seven years growing that business, we, within our first two years, because of the focus on leadership development, we doubled revenue, and then from 2019 to 2023, we doubled revenue again. So clearly, there are some things that are working in our business and to be able now today, to lead an organization doing work that I’m so passionate about is such a gift.

Maria Ross 09:21

That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And I love you know, you have to have those negative experiences to to see what not to do. You got to learn what what kind of leader you don’t want to be, or what kind of culture you don’t want to create. Yeah, because otherwise it’s always valuable. Yeah, it’s just as valuable Of course. So,

Andrea Butcher 09:37

so much of the time we we we turn like, oh, no, this is bad. This is no it’s contrast telling you reminding you of your values and what’s important to you. I

Maria Ross 09:47

love it. I love it. So what do you see as vital or missing in leadership development today? What what are the skills or the gaps that folks have? have to be the most effective leader they can be to ultimately drive the organization’s success forward.

Andrea Butcher 10:05

Yeah, from my perspective, it continues to be the human skills. We have come such a long way. I mean, the work that Brene Brown and Simon Sinek and Adam Grant are doing, are really pushing the envelope, but I am just my mind is boggled by the organizations that still don’t get it are still ego and greed driven. And, and so yeah, I mean, I, I have such an abundant mindset, there’s the you know, the work that I do, 20 years ago, leadership development didn’t get nearly the press, or there weren’t nearly as many experts doing that. Today, it’s a very different landscape. And I’m like, a big Hell yeah, for as many people doing the work as possible, because I think every leader needs a coach, just like every human needs a good therapist, I haven’t been leader could benefit from coaching and having a safe place to struggle through challenges. I mean, it’s because what’s interesting about if you think about the definition of leadership, you know, it’s to go to guide to travel, to taking a group of people, somewhere, mobilizing people to want to struggle for something that we share. That’s how I think about leadership. So it’s getting results through other people. But what happens so much is when you’ve got an ego driven leader that doesn’t really trust themselves, or even know themselves, they try to do everything on their own, right, they withhold, they don’t share openly, they aren’t vulnerable. And so it’s really hard then to connect or collaborate or, or engage others in that process. And so it’s, I am so passionate Maria, about giving leaders a place where they can let their guard down, because until they let their guard down and realize how good that actually feel, feels. And until they become more of who they really are, instead of trying to be something that they think someone else wants them to be, they’re not going to be what their team members need, or they’re not going to be that thing that creates connection.

Maria Ross 12:07

Well, and that’s such an interesting paradigm, because there is the desire and the need for leaders to show up as who they are. And to bring that to the table because they can’t be anyone else. And I spoke with Claude silver, who’s the Chief Heart Officer at VaynerMedia. And she talked about the fact that a lot of her role is about helping people be who they are as a leader, and not try to emulate anyone else, not even try to emulate Gary Vaynerchuk. And she says she talks to them about we hired you because of you. But that balance needs to be tempered with self awareness have got it. There’s also gaps you might have, there are strengths, there are gaps, there are emotional triggers. And you also need to know that about you, you can’t just blindly show up as who you are, in all its raw glory, because that might not be the best way to move everyone forward. So it’s a balance of digging deep, and figuring out who you are and what you’re good at and what you need to work on. And then being able to show up authentically, in that I think I think the biggest thing is not to pretend and not to put your head in the sand of like, I’m gonna pretend I have all the answers. And I’ve got this and I’m a perfect leader, when there is no such thing. Right? So what it what is your thought about balancing that authenticity with that continued desire to improve and grow and learn and understand where we might need to work on something

Andrea Butcher 13:39

that that is the work of leadership development, it is self development. And in order to be who you are, you have to know who you are. And doesn’t that ebb and flow and evolve. And, I mean, it’s why values work is so prevalent in leadership development, but even like, peeling back the layers, like I love to take leaders through a values exercise, but then like, I don’t really care what your values are, I want to know why that’s value. Yeah. And I want to know, like, how that shows up on your calendar and in your life and the values and action, right? It’s like it’s going a little bit deeper and, and then to your point around the weaknesses. It’s it’s beyond owning the weakness. You know, it’s it’s, like, connecting through your weakness and being willing to say, like, Hey, I’m really struggling here. Like, this is not something I have experienced it or this I have no idea what I’m doing right now. It’s, I mean, that is so freakin refreshing. When you hear somebody say that. Yeah. I tell this story a lot. And it resonates because of because of that, like connecting through our weakness. Several years ago, I put my daughter into a theater class that was eight weeks long and she was given a she’ll so Silverstein poem. Uh huh. called our orchestra. Oh, you You are a customer, she was the orchestra. And the idea was okay, we’re going to rehearse this, you’re going to show up every Saturday in practice with the instructor. And then at the end of the program, you’re going to present it in front of an audience. And so I mean, she was so excited about this and was always practicing, like, beating her belly as if it were her drum and playing her nose as if it were, our fleet was really cute, really cute poem. And she brought it to life in such a cool way. So I mean, I, I thought, this is going to be fun. This is like Mason’s moment to shine. She’s such a gregarious outgoing person, and kid. And so on the day of the performance, we got there early, we’re getting set up, I got a place in the front row with my little video camera like ready to capture this moment in action. And when she walked up on stage, I could tell immediately, like, Oh, my God, she has, like a horrific case of stage fright. It was like the blood had been drained from her body, she was pale white with all these red splotches, and she was shaking, visibly had to hit head to toe. And so I thought, okay, she’s going to run off the stage, she’s going to dig her head into my hip, and she’s going to sob, but put my video camera down. And, and she didn’t do that she did the entire performance. And it was really, really shaky. I mean, she beat her belly and play her little, her little nose like it was her flute. But it was, it was not a good performance. But she didn’t miss a line. Because I knew the poem. She got every single word. It was just really, really shaking. And what do you think, what do you think the audience did at the end of that performance?

Maria Ross 16:33

Well, of course they clapped. They probably gave her a standing ovation when they probably saw the fear. It

Andrea Butcher 16:38

was the only standing ovation of the day. And what I love about this during the reason I tell it so much is nobody was clapping for her because it was a good performance. Right? We were clapping before her because as you said, she was terrified and she did it anyways, yes, connect, we connect to our weakness. So any, anytime we’re vulnerable enough to put ourselves out there. I mean, it’s the reason we cheer for the underdog. And we love a good comeback story. You know, we there’s something really refreshing about that. And, but it takes confidence, right in who you are in a feeling of worthiness I’ve Yeah, I’ve been reading about and listening so much to so much about worthiness that it’s because it’s even in those moments, when I have no idea what I’m doing. And I’m awkward, and I’m messy, I’m still worthy. I know who I am, I know that I have gifts, I know that I belong. And so it keeps me in that if you don’t have that feeling of worthiness, it’s going to be hard to show up, right?

Maria Ross 17:36

Well, and that’s how you that’s how bullies show up. Because they, I often talk about the ability to make space in your brain, for empathy for being able to take on another person’s point of view without defensiveness or fear, that requires you to have your foundation strong, and you to feel worthy you to feel confident you to feel like well, at least I can figure this out. And I’m open to other points of view, because it’s the leaders that are not feeling confident the leaders that are insecure, the leaders that are leading from a place of fear, that are the ones that don’t want to tarnish the diverse thoughts and experiences of everyone in the organization. Because they have some skewed view of the fact that if I’m a leader, I’m the one that has to come up with all the good ideas myself, right? Or I can’t show weakness, I can’t show that I don’t, I can’t go to my team and say, Hey, I’m having a really hard time figuring this out. Let’s figure it out together. And that paradigm, I mean, you’re living it, that paradigm is changing. And I actually have a lot of empathy for those leaders who came up in a time when those weren’t the rules. And now all of a sudden, they’re being told, Oh, no, you need to talk about personal things at work. I mean, you don’t have to but, you know, like, became successful through a certain set of rules that they were taught. And now they’re like, someone changed the rules of the game on me. And I actually don’t know how to lead other people or mentor other people because I didn’t grow up in the system the same way. Yeah. And so that’s those are the ones I hope are investing in leadership development and being able to learn the new paradigm and be comfortable with the new paradigm of we’re trying to bring our humanity to work because you can’t park your humanity at the Office Store.

Andrea Butcher 19:19

Right in your humanity showing whether Yeah, I could or not showing anyway. Yeah, it and it’s interesting that you say that about you know, feeling some compassion, or for those who like the game has changed. But it’s interesting because I think that I think empathy and compassion are natural. I think a lot of these they’re in nature, human beings policies, right. And then we put in place, like the way in which we traditionally have exited people. That’s not natural, that feels like shit, which is why every HR person freakin hates letting people go. But if you do that with like, hey, this just isn’t the right fit for either of us and we can are about you. And so here’s what we’re gonna do to like make this process like, just so she can show some compassion and heart that process.

Maria Ross 20:07

Yeah, I often talk about my most empathetic boss, I’ve told this story a million times. So my listeners are probably groaning. But my most empathetic boss was someone who had to lay off the entire marketing team in advance of a merger. And he’s still my mentor to this day, I’ve actually quoted him in the new book coming in the fall the empathy dilemma, but it’s, it’s this both and philosophy that I’m trying to preach, and it sounds like you are to where you can be empathetic and high performing. You can make really tough business decisions. And you can do that with compassion. We’ve been we’ve been sold this bill of goods that it has to be either or,

Andrea Butcher 20:42

and actually, I think they go hand in hand. Yes, totally. Because care, like a relationship is not one or the other. A relationship is both. Yeah. And it’s almost like, of course, I’m going to hold you accountable for the things we agreed to. Because I care about you and our relationship, because I empathize with you, because I know you and who you are. So with that interesting, I don’t often get the it’s It boggles my mind. When leaders say things, like, well, but I don’t want to hold them accountable, because I’m worried about the relationship and like, yeah, not holding them accountable is way more damaging to the relationship. Yeah. Because you’re not following through on what you committed to or what you want. And

Maria Ross 21:29

you’re leaving them spinning. I mean, it’s sort of like a parent not giving a child boundaries. I mean, they you need some boundary, you need some structure, you need some boundaries. And so it doesn’t mean you people, please because that’s, that’s often that’s why I’m writing the next book is because folks are burning themselves out in the name of being an empathetic leader, but what they’re practicing is actually not empathy. It’s people pleasing. It’s exactly caving in its submission. And so being able to learn that skill of I can be strong in my decision, if I know I’ve made my decision based on my values, and I can communicate tough decisions to my team that they may not like nobody wants to get laid off, for example, but I can do it in a way where I can think through what might this person need right now? How can I support them? How can I communicate in a different way than just perfunctorily giving them the news over, you know, a 10 minute zoom call? Like, how can I do this in a way that is more human and maybe what they need is space to vent. And I can give them that without? I’m not going to change the business decision, the business decision has been made. And just because someone’s upset, I can’t go okay, you’re right. Forget the layoffs, we’re not doing them. Right. So I love that. And I want to segue into what you alluded to here, because that is the big thing leaders struggle with is how to balance empathy with accountability. So tell us your thought on that. You teased it a little bit? Yeah,

Andrea Butcher 22:58

I for me, like, I don’t think it’s the balance. I think it’s an and I think as a leader, you are empathic and you hold your team members accountable. I mean, it’s so empathy, you know, seeking to understand like, where someone is, like meeting them where they are, that doesn’t mean letting someone off the hook. We’ve gotten that confused in our head like I am, because because, again, this goes back to our definition of leadership, my role is to get results through my team. So we have goals and things that we commit to. And I care so much about them as humans. And so as I’m paying attention to things they’re struggling with, and things perhaps that they’re not doing, I’m going to communicate and I’m going to connect with them on that. I’m Why would I let them off the hook? We’ve made an agreement on right thing, they care about a shared perspective. And a lot of times it’s like, oh, yeah, like, I totally missed that. You’re right, or, Hey, just, you know, like, I’ve got a lot going on, and then that leads to it a bigger conversation around, how can we help you and support you? And what what do you need? Because we are a team?

Maria Ross 24:11

Yes. Yes, I love that. There is a leadership coach, executive coach, Ed Batista, who wrote a an article that I’ve quoted in the new book where he has this quadrant of empathy and accountability. And one of one of the things that the quadrant communicates is that accountability without empathy as a bootcamp, but empathy without accountability is a daycare. Okay? Like it’s just this idea of like, everyone can’t just do what they want to do. That’s not the purpose of the organization. That’s not the purpose of the workplace. And several of the leaders that I interviewed for the new book, talked about the fact that they’re very clear that their first goal is to support they’re hired in that role to meet the goals of the organization. They can’t lose sight of that. They can do that while taking care of their people love that. But what they always keep sight of at the end of the day, if a person is not performing, if a person is struggling, it’s my job to then make sure that the work gets done, I still have to figure out a way to get the work done. I still have to hold people accountable. It doesn’t mean I don’t care

Andrea Butcher 25:23

about them. Yeah, I have a team member recently that that dropped the ball on a few things. And, you know, so she reports to a leader within my business. And so the leader and I were having a conversation about like, what’s happening, and there’s like this pattern of behavior. And we care so much about her. And we know that there’s some, like fit question with the role that we’ve talked a lot about as an organization and with her about. And so we had an opportunity, another colleague had a little event at our house. And so I just asked, this team member is like, what would you ride with me? Because I just, I hadn’t had that one on one time, I didn’t feel like I was in a good position to call her up and be like, Hey, what’s going on? Yeah, I hadn’t done my part of under seeking to understand. So we had a car ride together. And we sang Taylor Swift songs. And we laughed together. And we connected and not surprising, she opened up a little bit and shared about some of the things that have been going on. And so and we have had conversations about following through on the things that we commit to clients about and the impact that that has. And so again, it’s an end, I love the grid that you highlight, I think

Maria Ross 26:33

it’s awesome. I’ll put a link to that article in the show notes. But well, it just highlights

Andrea Butcher 26:37

the and the MA and accountability. They are leadership skills, like they are their leadership skills. Mm hmm. And that are really important and supportive of each other.

Maria Ross 26:47

So you are the founder of next gen talent, and co founder and president a program specifically designed to equip emerging HR leaders for success. So you’re working with younger people? Yeah. And so I’m wondering, what are they asking to learn? What are you hearing from them? And is it different from what you heard maybe a decade ago, or 20 years ago? From leaders?

Andrea Butcher 27:12

Well, yes, it is fascinating. I mean, I learn, I learned so much from them. I mean, so they’re all two to five years in to their HR. So they’re, you know, they’re mostly late, mid to late 20s. And, well, first of all, just the way they engage with technology blows my mind, how they’re fearless around it, they the depth at which, so if they if I if we were to engage some of them in this conversation, Maria, it would almost be like, and, of course, you know, the language that they use and their experiences. I mean, they, they have grown up in a world, particularly over the last several years, where they’re immersed in it through social media every single day, the human centric skills. So it is an expectation that they have of their leaders. Yeah, they they want, they want that connection. They want relationship with their leaders. They want to be seen, right? I mean, they’re the people that we have in next in town. It’s an application process. So it’s driven, you know, growth oriented individuals naturally, but they but is it but it is a subset, you know, over the last six years, we’ve had 15 leaders each year. So now what 50 or so leaders have participated in the experience. And a theme that I have seen across all of the groups is how they want they want to add value. They want to be seen by their organizations, they so badly want to contribute and are just our our crave craving, that that connection with their organizations with their leaders. I love

Maria Ross 29:02

this. And I’m going to link in the show notes to another episode we did with Ana Liana, who’s a generational expert, she wrote a fantastic book about the differences in generations in the workplace, and where the communication conflicts happen. It’s called unlocking generational codes. And we had a great interview, where she talks about it’s not just the stereotypes you hear about different generations, it’s how different generations view the power of information, how they view technology, how they view leadership. And when you when the clash happens, because the two groups are not whatever groups we’re talking about whether we’re talking about Gen X and Boomers or Boomers and Gen Z or whomever the clash happens because there’s a lack of empathy and understanding of what makes that generation or people of that generation tick. And we can solve a lot of our communication problems and thus our leadership issues. If We have a better understanding of where people are coming from. Because you know, otherwise you get the oh, those younger people are so entitled, they just they want to be like Vice President tomorrow. And maybe they do. But there’s a very good reason that they approach work that way. And so you can still fulfill their needs without promoting them to Vice Pres. If and when I,

Andrea Butcher 30:19

those, those comments always kind of bugged me, because it’s like, I think the I don’t think that no, I that’s not been my experience. I mean, I think they want to add value. Yeah, want to contribute at the max. And so I often think, like, our Gen X brains are filtering that as well, they want my role or they want, yeah, no, I just think they want to they like their bad acids. So they like France.

Maria Ross 30:46

Yeah, it’s understanding that mindset. And yes, it’s not promoting them to CEO tomorrow, even though that might be what they’re communicating. But it’s finding those ways to give them those opportunities to contribute and make a difference and have an impact. And so that was really both the needs can be met in that scenario, if we understand where people are coming from. And so there’s also this, this concept that Claude silver talked about when she was on, which is that when it’s why clarity is a pillar in my next book about how to be an effective empathetic leader. It’s being really clear with people about what the expectations are, and not just the job description. But this is what we expect. This is how we expect people to treat each other on this team. This is how we expect people to step up when there’s a crisis, or there’s an issue. And just being crystal clear about that. She talked about the fact that being crystal clear about career paths, and values and expectations, eradicated a lot of the perceived and teittleman Because people want information, they want to know what to expect. And I’m curious what you think about that?

Andrea Butcher 31:56

Yeah, I totally aligned with that. Brene Brown says clarity is

Maria Ross 32:00

mind. Yes, absolutely. So as we Oh,

Andrea Butcher 32:04

God sets us up for it sets us up for accountability. I mean, you can’t hold someone accountable for an expectation that has not been set. And so much of the time, yeah, it’s the lack of clarity that’s getting in the way, versus accountability being the issue.

Maria Ross 32:19

I love that I want to repeat that you cannot hold someone accountable for an expectation that they haven’t been. Yet

Andrea Butcher 32:24

you haven’t set that you have a sense that, love it. Love it. Okay, so

Maria Ross 32:28

as we wrap up, what sort of a golden gem you have for leaders that are struggling with maybe their own personality of being able to connect with their teams or with other people? Maybe they think they have a blind spot in terms of like, I’m just not good at the people stuff. Yeah. What do you say to those leaders when you’re working with them? Yeah, I would encourage

Andrea Butcher 32:50

those leaders to identify like a couple of trusted advisors, people that you’ve worked with, that, you know, will tell you the truth and ask them for some feedback. With a lot of heart and a lot of sincerity. You know, it could sound something like, you know, I want I want to grow as a leader, I want to be better as a leader, like, you know, me, well, I trust you. Like, what have you seen that’s getting in my way? What can I do differently? It’s so simple. Yeah, but if these are people in your life, like asking them for feedback is going to do a lot to build trust to reinforce that relationship. But also, you’re gonna get some good, good insight.

Maria Ross 33:25

And it’s scary, it’s vulnerable to ask, because, you know, you actually want an honest answer. Right. But it’s like,

Andrea Butcher 33:30

you got to choose the right people, right, trusted advisors that you know, will tell you the truth.

Maria Ross 33:35

Yeah, yeah. Get them when they’re in a good mood to lay out a full night’s sleep. Well, Andrea, this has been such a great conversation. I’ll probably talk for another two hours, I’m sure. But all your links will be in the show notes. But for folks that are on the go exercising right now taking a walk, where’s the best place they can find out more about your work?

Andrea Butcher 33:55

Yeah, for certain LinkedIn, I put a ton of content out on LinkedIn, I’m very active there. So Andrea butcher, feel free to connect with me and, and I also I mean, I am one of those people. If you send me a direct message on LinkedIn, I will respond. I am a connector at heart and I love getting to know people. So I would love to hear what resonated so please connect with me there.

Maria Ross 34:16

I love it. And LinkedIn etiquette, if you do that, make sure you to send her a message that you heard her on the empathy edge podcast. Exactly. And we will also link to your podcast being at work, which is amazing. So we will put that resource in the show notes as well.

Andrea Butcher 34:31

Thank you, Maria, thank you so much for the work that you’re doing. I can’t wait to read your book and support you. And this is such important work that you’re doing. So I’m rooting for you. I’m lifting you up. And I’m so grateful for the impact that you’re having. Same.

Maria Ross 34:45

Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a friend or a colleague. Until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually Lusa take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources, book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Robin Hills: Understanding the Intelligence of Emotions

When you think of emotional intelligence, there are still many leaders out there who falsely believe it has no place in business. Business is about logic, not emotions, right? Wrong. How can being aware of yourself and others not have a place in an environment where relationships are everything?

My guest today is Robin Hills. He defines emotional intelligence and its core components, the role motivation and empathy play, and why AI won’t take over anytime soon. He talks about resilience and shares strategies to manage stress and weather storms in the workplace. Finally, Robin shares a fascinating take on the Intelligence of Emotions and what useful information can be gathered when we learn to properly read emotions – both our own and those of others – so we can move forward and succeed.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Emotional intelligence is more than just the emotions themselves. But the emotions are what make us human. Leave the working without emotions to AI.
When humans communicate and empathize with each other, we change each other in the processes, modifying the neural pathways in the brain. That interaction cannot happen in the same way with a robot.
Emotional intelligence is always a work in progress. Whether you started studying it today or have been studying it for your entire life, there is always something more to learn.

“Emotions drive our thinking, emotions drive our decision making, emotions drive everything that we do. Without emotional intelligence, we really are going to be just like the robots.”

— Robin Hills

Episode References:

Free Newsletter: Ei-Matters.com
The Empathy Edge: Dr. Michelle Zhou: Empathic AI is Real and It’s Here – But We Need Everyone Involved!
The Empathy Edge: Miniter Dial: How to Embed More Heart Into AI

About Robin Hills, Director of Ei4Change, Business Psychologist, and Emotional Intelligence Trainer

Robin is the director of Ei4Change, a company specializing in educational training, coaching and personal development focused around emotional intelligence, positive psychology and neuroscience. He has taught over 400,000 people in 195+ countries how to build resilience,

and increase self-awareness and understanding of others.

Robin is the author of 2 books and has through his work developed the experiential coaching methodology Images of Resilience to support cathartic conversations around resilience. He has delivered keynote speeches at conferences across the world including at Harvard University and sits on the North West Committee of the Association of Business Psychology.

Connect with Robin Hills:

Ei4change: ei4change.com

X: twitter.com/Ei4Change

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinhills

Facebook: facebook.com/EI4Change

Instagram: instagram.com/ei4change

Robin’s Courses: courses.ei4change.info/collections

Download this free guide: Developing your Emotional Intelligence

courses.ei4change.info/courses/free-book

Book: The Authority Guide to Behaviour in Business: How to Inspire Others and Build Successful Relationships

Robin’s course on empathy: Understanding Empathy

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Robin Hills 02:48

it is a pleasure being here. And thank you for having me on the show.

Maria Ross 02:52

So let’s talk quickly, you’ve been doing this work for a long time your company has taught you have taught over 400,000 people across 195 plus countries, as we mentioned in your bio, and you’ve devoted your work to resilience and emotional intelligence, training and development. So just briefly, tell us a little bit about how you got into this work and what’s your passion for it?

Robin Hills 03:17

Well, my passion really is to see people develop, grow and reach their optimum performance. And when I started out my career back in the 80s, emotional intelligence was still being studied in the universities. Nobody had heard of it beyond the academic walls. And it wasn’t until the mid 90s, when Daniel Goleman published his books on emotional intelligence that he came into the public consciousness. And at the time, I thought, Well, this sounds really, really interesting. Then, to cut a really long story short, I went through a couple of redundancies and I set up vi for change, ei being emotional intelligence, the change 15 years ago, to concentrate on people development. And so everything then was underpinned by this construct that is emotional intelligence, whilst everybody else does training and various other aspects of CEO C suite development, leadership development, emotional intelligence underpins everything that we trade. So all I’m doing is she’s coming along and doing the training, the coaching and the facilitation, from a slightly different perspective. And hey, Maria, it works.

Maria Ross 04:39

Well tell us what’s that slightly different perspective?

Robin Hills 04:42

Well, the fact is that a lot of trainers will run an emotional intelligence module when they’re doing leadership training. I don’t because I just lead with emotional intelligence. So everything that we do on the leadership development, bro Abram is talking about emotional intelligence because it is so fundamental to us as human beings that you can’t kind of segregated separated out multi TARDIS. Oh, let’s have a look at emotions because emotions define us. emotions drive our thinking, emotions drive our decision making emotions drive everything that we do. And it underpins the the topic of your your podcast, which is empathy. So without emotional intelligence, we really are just going to be very much like the robots like the Daleks.

Maria Ross 05:41

Exactly. And that that is the thing of when you’re teaching people these new skills or bringing these new skills into their consciousness, there’s this desire to separate it out to border it to say that, Oh, this is this discrete thing that we’re going to study and learn. But it sounds like what you do is more integrated into leadership development, training through everything that you do, which is where I hope at some point, empathy comes to because I’m sure you’ve had these conversations to where it’s like, I mean, I, I do a really great empathy workshop. But one workshop is not going to transform your culture, it’s got to be embedded into the fabric of how people lead how people communicate, the policies that you have within the organization, how people treat each other, it’s got to be embedded in all of those things. And I’m often asked the question of what’s the difference between empathy and emotional intelligence? And I always talk about the fact that empathy is sort of just one rung of the ladder of emotional intelligence. Can you talk about that question and say, you know, in your mind and in your work, what is the definition of emotional intelligence? And what does it encompass?

Robin Hills 06:49

Well, let’s keep the definition of emotional intelligence, really simple. It’s the way in which you combine your thinking with your feelings, in order to make authentic decisions and build up quality relationships, to take action. So that is emotional intelligence. In a nutshell, it sounds so simple, but it is incredibly hard to do. Yes. How do you combine your thinking with your feelings in order to make quality decisions and build up sorry, authentic decisions, build up these quality relationships. So the components of emotional intelligence really, around awareness, awareness of SEL, and awareness of other people. So it is awareness itself, awareness, is having that understanding of what impact one has on the environment one’s working with and the impact that one has on other people. So it’s having this understanding around what emotions are coming up, but it’s also having this awareness of one’s strengths and limitations, what gets in the way, what works really well. And then the awareness of the outer world is an awareness of people. And that’s where empathy sits. So emotional intelligence has empathy as a core components, the next parts of emotional intelligence, or action and behavior. So it’s how you actually work with your emotions, the emotions that are going on, inside you inside your head, your mind, your physiology, your psychology, and how you work with them, to express an emotion. And if you do express it, how are you going to express it to have the impact that you need, it’s all about, therefore emotional regulation, and emotional manage. And then it’s a case of taking that action into the outer world. And as the pinned with the empathy we’ve been talking about, you use your social skill, your social skills to build up relationships with other people, which involves understanding the context. It involves understanding the politics with a small pea, it involves understanding the emotional climate and choosing one’s language and social capabilities to be able to develop those relationships on a one to one basis in small groups and in large teams. Now, of course, none of this is going to work unless you have motivation. And it’s a case of using the motivation that you’ve got to apply these skills internally. And using this both innovation to work and influence and persuade other people to do what is appropriate. I

Maria Ross 09:51

love it. I love it because that it really is emotional intelligence is this vast network, and it’s almost like saying it for me. It’s almost like saying, you know, you study science. But underneath science is chemistry, physics, biology, all of these other skills that you need if you’re really talking about this big world, this big bucket of the topic. And so it’s sort of like emotional intelligence can’t be just a box that’s checked. That’s Yes, I’ve got, I mean, I guess you could say, If you fulfill all of these things underneath it, you can proudly say I’m a very emotionally intelligent person. But it’s something that we constantly struggle with. And I’m wondering how you deal with in your trainings, the pushback that you might get, especially from business leaders that say, well, emotions have no place in business, they literally take emotional intelligence as just the emotions part, the feelings part. And they view that very negatively of like, well, that means I’m going to be crying, that means I’m going to be angry. That means I’m going to be sad. How do you square that for them?

Robin Hills 10:57

What’s wrong with that? I?

Maria Ross 11:00

But not all the time? Yeah. No,

Robin Hills 11:02

no, no, it’s a case of understanding the the emotions that are happening within the workplace. So any leader that then says to me, Look, we don’t do emotion? Emotions here. Yeah. Yeah, we leave that to Barry Manilow? No, I’m afraid that’s dinosaur thinking. That’s old world thinking and in the world that we are now which is 2023 going into 2024 Going into 2025. And the rest of the 20s. A AI Artificial Intelligence is the big component that is driving a lot of business thinking. Those people that are not recognizing emotions, are defining themselves as being incapable of working with people for the future. The robots will do things without emotions, and they’ll do it very well. So that these people are saying that we don’t do emotions, off you go, then goodbye. Enjoy your retirement exactly is that the world is going to change the world is going to change very dramatically. And people are talking about the skills based economy, well, what skills are going to be needed in a world that is dominated by AI? What is it that we can do as human beings that the robots can’t do? The hurray say, of Berea, the biggest component is empathy. Now, I do appreciate that you’ve recently had a guest on the show who has been talking about affective computing, Michelle, so she

Maria Ross 12:46

talks about cognitive, yeah, she talks about cognitive AI and empathic AI. And we’ll put a link to her episode in the show notes. Because I was actually just going to bring that up, that even in her view, running a company that builds this kind of AI solution, or her thinking is that we still need to be involved as humans, because how else are we going to teach these models, we still have to be developing our own empathy and our own emotional intelligence and working on that. Because otherwise, it won’t be embedded in in the models that we have, because it’s only going to be as good as what we can code into it, and what we can program into it. And so I love that, that, you know, techno optimist view of, we need those skills more than ever. And those are the skills that computers can’t just replicate immediately. But they’re

Robin Hills 13:39

never going to be able to replicate them. And I think we should, Dr. Sol is doing some fantastic phenomenal work in affective computing, trying to build empathy into the systems. Now, the thing is, the computers, the robots will never ever be able to do what it is that you and I Maria can do. That’s because they lack a fundamental component of building up empathy. And the component is probably the most complex device that is available in them that you know, in universe, a human Bray. Now, the very fact that you and I are talking together, miles and miles apart, but the fact that we are empathizing together and building up a relationship together, you’re changing my brain, I’m changing your brain. We’re developing new neural connections and new neural pathways through this interaction and we’ve only been talking 1520 minutes, but that is something that we do very naturally as human beings. We cannot survive without doing that. So when we start looking at the skills needed for the future, empathy becomes so fundamentally key And poor to the future, that we’ve got to look at how we can work with them. But the more appropriately because we as humans will never be led by robots, leaders, leaders have that capability, that capacity, that skill set, to know how to influence and persuade, to know how to stop somebody doing something that they shouldn’t be doing, to be able to drive the right ethics and the right morals through to be able to say to somebody, you’re working too hard, go home, to be able to say to somebody come on, but push yourself a bit further, you can do it. Now, those are the bits that AI will never be able to do. So leadership becomes a really core component for the future. Well,

Maria Ross 15:56

and I love this sentiment, and I’m going to link to his episode to mentor dial who is located in your neck of the woods in the UK, he talks about the fact that there’s also this element of we, as humans are still working on our emotional intelligence, we’re still working on empathy, we’re still building that skill. And we can’t just hope to outsource that to a computer to AI if we’re not even like, if we haven’t even perfected it ourselves. Because that is the other argument that many people say is Oh, I don’t need to learn that skill anymore. I’ll just teach it to AI, I’ll teach I’ll you know, I’ll use AI or I’ll teach it to a computer. And he talks about, you know, we haven’t mastered it as human beings, then you know, that’s not something that can be taught to a machine. So no. And expecting a machine to replicate something that we haven’t even perfected is just, you know, for lack of a better word bonkers like,

Robin Hills 16:57

Well, look, I’m sitting here talking to you as an emotional intelligence expert. I’ve been studying it all my life as indeed you have a family emotionally intelligent, interesting question, isn’t it? Because if I in progress is what I like, most definitely, it’s got me because if I say yes, there’s no room for improvement. And if I say no water, so by doing talking to people about emotional intelligence, it is as you define its work in progress. And I’m still learning, right. And there are some fascinating things that I will share with you that I’ve learned only fairly recently, which really blows my mind. And I think what we’ve got to think about this as we look at empathy, and we look at moving forward. But before I say that there are certain other things that well, before

Maria Ross 17:53

we move on, I want to just switch gears for a moment and talk a little bit about emotional resilience. Yeah, because that is, and maybe that was where you were going with this is you talk about strategies to manage stress and weather storms in the workplace. And I think that that’s a big part. You know, once we’re, once we’re able to be more aware of our triggers and our strengths and our blind spots, being able to build that resilience, especially in the face of so many changes and traumas that we faced in just within the past few years. What are some of those strategies that you talk about that folks need to can use to build that resilience? And maybe, before you even begin that, what is your definition of emotional resilience?

Robin Hills 18:38

Well, resilience is having the capacity to be very, very focused on what it is that you’re trying to do, to have been very, very goal orientated. It’s having the creativity and the adaptability to work as the environment changes. And it’s underpinned by a firm belief that life has some meaning. So all of those components together will give people emotional resilience. And if we go back to our discussion about ai, ai hasn’t bought the adaptability, the creativity, to work as an environment, or changes. The other thing that AI does not possess, it doesn’t possess consciousness. So it has no comprehension of meaning. And it has no comprehension of spirituality, itself, bliss within the universe, whatever you as an individual defines that to be. So all of those are wrapped up within this emotional resilience. So as we are now working in environments which are increasingly Buka, volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous, and they’re going to get even more so this is where the human element come through. And this is where emotional resilience will resound quite nicely, because humans with good emotional resilience have got the creativity and the adaptability to do what is right, ethically and morally, and do it because, well, because, and because it is appropriate to do it, and it gives all of our lives that meaning. So

Maria Ross 20:26

what are some strategies to, to build that resilience and manage that stress, so we can measure those those ups and downs we can whether those ups and downs, again, I’m

Robin Hills 20:37

gonna go back to what we’ve been talking about all the way through this book, because it’s building up the social connections, the networks to have the people that we can fall back on when we need them. And to have the social competence to be able to communicate well with people to be able to say to people, life is getting too much for me at the moment, there’s too much going on in my life, I need a bit of a break, to help me I need some help here. I can’t do everything. So it’s knowing who to have that conversation with them to fall back on. It’s also learning to be a lot more adaptable, a lot more flexible. And to be a little bit more proactive. So saying to oneself, look, this is what I’m going to be working on over the next few days, the next few weeks, what do I need to do in order to make that happen? Now we know that life happens, that changes things, and the unexpected comes up. So it’s having the ability to work around that and be prepared for it and get back to what it is that you’re trying to do. When you you’ve got the ability to do that.

Maria Ross 21:55

So you mentioned earlier this idea of motivation, being really important being motivated to improve your emotional intelligence and to connect with people. How can leaders both inspire themselves and inspire others? To build those successful relationships? What are some ways that they can employ that? Well,

Robin Hills 22:17

the best way to motivate somebody is, again, these are all skills underpinning empathy is to ask them, and to listen. So the critical skill that a leader needs to develop is the ability to coach and the ability to ask the most appropriate questions in the right way to help the other person to explore what it is that they need to do in order to move forward. Now all sounds very, very simple and very straightforward. For being on the end, the receiving end of a good coaching session can be incredibly motivating. Somebody has listened to what I’m saying, somebody is pushing me in a different direction somebody understands. So what I would say to leaders is, stop being a manager and be and stop being a leader, and stop telling people what to do and start coaching people, because they are doing jobs that you will never do. And you will never do it because your job is a leader, not a worker. So what are you doing, telling people what they should be doing? Ask them? What’s the best way of doing this? What’s getting in the way? What can I do to help you to improve your performance more effectively and efficiently?

Maria Ross 23:46

I love that. I love that. As a last question, I want to talk to you about this concept of the intelligence of emotions. You talk about that? And can you share a little bit about what that means? Yes,

Robin Hills 23:57

if we go and have a look at the move, most people quite wrongly, in my view, define emotions as being positive and negative. Now emotions are not positive or negative emotions are physiological and psychological states that drive us forward to adapt around the environment that we find ourselves in. So they’re neither positive or negative. Yes, some emotions can feel quite unpleasant at times, and some emotions can feel quite pleasant. So it’s how we use these emotions in a constructive way. That is the defining part of the emotion. So if we look at emotions as being data, providing us with information, we may be feeling unpleasant, but that’s because we are in a set of circumstances that is driving us to feel that by now, before we came on air. You and I had a little bit of a hiccup in terms of getting the technology to work. And this often happens when I got podcasts so it doesn’t feel good. And it was your friend Maria and I was feeling for you because it didn’t feel particularly nice. I know that because he didn’t same sort of situation. But we needed that feeling of unpleasantness in order to get it to work. So we, we went about doing a few things to sort things out, and hey, we’re having a, a an issue free conversation, which is great. But we can’t feel pleasant all the time. We can’t feel deliriously happy all the time. And why why should we? Or why would we want to be because if we are feeling that way, then we’re going to take unwanted risks, we’re not going to be communicating particularly well with people, we’re not going to be engaging with them at a deep level. So what we’ve got to do is just to recognize, why am I feeling the way that I’m feeling? Isn’t? How can I utilize that emotional state and work with it, in order to be constructive around the way that I’m feeling? I

Maria Ross 26:08

love that I love that idea of of looking at our emotions, positive or negative emotions. As information, that’s often what I talk about in terms of being empathetic is just trying to gather information about somebody else and their context, so that you can move forward together. But that’s almost empathy for ourselves is understood looking at our emotions, as information, what what is this telling me? And what needs to be my next move?

Robin Hills 26:36

But unless we understand it within ourselves? How are we going to understand it with other people? And how are we going to empathize 100%,

Maria Ross 26:44

because if we don’t, if we don’t take the time to reflect on what that emotion means, to us, when we see it in another person, we might react in the same way that we might react if we have that emotion, right, people that are brought up not to cry, or not to show anger. When someone else cries or shows anger, they’re going to dismiss it in that person, because that’s what they were taught to do within themselves. And that does not lead to a productive relationship, or a productive way to move forward, especially if you’re leading someone in the workplace is to try to, you know, understand and motivate someone else. And if you don’t know how to read those emotions as information and what it’s telling you, when you get curious about what it’s telling you, then you can’t move forward together. So

Robin Hills 27:29

I love that. I think we’ve got to set people’s expectations here look, for more academic paper you read, but there anything between about three bells, and 27,000 Dubeau. So we can’t label all of and I think the easiest way for leaders to look at emotions is to define whether it’s a pleasant emotion or an unpleasant emotion. And if it’s unpleasant, how do I use this constructively? And if it’s pleasant, how do I use this constructively, and stop either of these emotions pleasant or unpleasant or either of these groups of emotions, either pleasant or unpleasant, becoming destructive in the way in which we behave, because unpleasant emotions that are destructive, and that they are sustained, will lead to stress and burnout. And I think as leaders, we’ve got to work with that both in ourselves and in other people. And to say, enough is enough. I

Maria Ross 28:31

love it. Well, this has been such a great conversation and lots of little nuggets for us to take with us. I do want to mention to folks that they’re all your links will be in the show notes, especially to your book, the authority guide to behavior in business, how to inspire others and build successful relationships, and a link to all your courses, especially your course on empathy called understanding empathy. And I also see here that you have a little free book for our listeners, developing your emotional intelligence. So I will put that link in the show notes as well. Listeners, check that out. It’s a free resource from Robin to you. So for folks on the go, that don’t have a chance to look into the shownotes Where’s where’s the one or two best places they can connect with you?

Robin Hills 29:18

Well buy companies ie I changed so go straight to the company website, which is EI for change.com and you should be able to find all the information that you spoken about by clicking through there. And I’ve also got a digital magazine called E i matters ei hype and matters.com which is regularly being updated with fresh content. There are again resources quizzes, podcasts, this podcast will be featured on ei matters regularly so do check out ei matters and completely free just go through and and enjoy the articles.

Maria Ross 29:58

I love it. I Love it. Well, you know, there’s we can’t get enough resources to help us improve our emotional intelligence. And I just want to mention for folks that are listening audibly, it’s E I, the number for change.com is the website address. But again, all these links will be in the show notes. And I know there will be lots of listeners who reach out and connect with you, Robin, thank you so much for your time today. Maria,

Robin Hills 30:21

it’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for ending my day on such a positive note.

Maria Ross 30:26

And thank you everyone for listening to another great episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate review and share it with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

April Hot Take: Why Empathy Starts with Self-Awareness

The book is coming! September 10 is the day that The Empathy Dilemma: How Successful Leaders Balance Performance, People, and Personal Boundaries hits shelves to help leaders dedicated to people-centered practices to get the best performance possible and balance the demands of the business with the needs of their people.

I am so excited to share this with you! For the next 5 months, I’ll be devoting a Hot Take episode to one of the 5 core pillars of effective empathetic leaders, outlined in the book. See, I emphasize EFFECTIVE because it’s not just about being empathetic – you have to actually perform, deliver, and get results, too. You as a leader can and must balance empathy with accountability. And today we’re going to talk about the first pillar to accomplish that…Self-Awareness.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Humility and empathy go hand in hand. You have to let your ego go and embrace your curiosity to learn and grow.
Some ways you can become more self-aware include: requesting input from teammates and colleagues, leveraging self-assessment tools (such as the Enneagram, DISC, or Myers Briggs), and learning to listen deeply.
You can pre-order now through August 27, 2024, to get 30% off your copy of The Empathy Dilemma for stories from leaders, and recommendations for tactics to try to put these strategies into practice and benefit from the results.

“Self-reflection is not woo-woo; it’s a smart strategy. You need to cultivate a deep and ever-evolving understanding of your people, as well as of yourself.”

— Maria Ross

Episode References:

Check out The Empathy Dilemma pre-sale for 30% off until August 27, 2024: https://bit.ly/TEDSpecialPresale
Find out more about the book and (soon) download a free chapter sneak peek: http://www.TheEmpathyDilemma.com

Join the community and discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Hi, everyone, and welcome to this month’s special hot take episode, where I’m going to start outlining some content from the book for you because the book is coming September 10, is the day that the empathy dilemma how successful leaders balanced performance, people and personal boundaries, hits shelves to help leaders like you dedicated to people centered practices, get the best performance possible, balance the demands of the business with the needs of your people. And I am so excited to share it with you. So for the next five months, I’ll be devoting a hot take episode to one of the five core pillars of effective empathetic leaders outlined in the book. See, I emphasize effective because it’s not just about being empathetic, you have to actually perform, deliver and get results to you as a leader can and must balance empathy with accountability. And today we’re going to talk about the first step or the first pillar to accomplish that. This is a hurdle that gets in many leaders way they think they have to choose between empathy, or high performance, compassion or ambition. They don’t, it’s both and not either, or, and they never realize sometimes that empathy is the catalyst when it’s actually being shown, that leads to engagement, innovation and results. And speaking of the new book, there’s a special presale offer that I will tell you about at the end where you can purchase copies at 30% off until August 27. So stay through to the end. And I’ll tell you how you can get those discounted copies for your team, you’ll get special launch swag, a special VIP launch event. And you can have me crash your next meeting for an empathy discussion. So stay tuned till the end. But I wanted to share with you today what I loved about writing the book, my favorite part was interviewing so many leaders who are actually doing it. They are being authentic, empathetic and tuned into their people, while never losing focus on why they’re there. And what they’re being tasked to do. As one of my interviewees shares in the book, their number one goal is to make the business successful. That’s their job. But that does not mean it has to be at the expense of not showing empathy and humanity for their team. In fact, because they do show those things, their teams are loyal to a fault and would go through fire for them. But how right how can leaders balance performance people and personal boundaries? It’s sometimes a delicate question. My new book offers guidance on the healthy and productive ways that leaders can deal with the unique challenges they’re facing in trying to balance it all. And that’s where the five pillars of effective empathetic leadership come in. These are common traits and behaviors I see over and over again, in the successful empathetic leaders I interview, speak to and advise even those who truly are empathetic, but don’t label themselves as such. The five pillars are a result of hundreds of podcast interviews, extensive research data, and I found them to be the common threads across all those who are empathetic and high performing at the same time. So let’s dig into the very first one pillar number one self awareness. Now what do I mean by self awareness? This is understanding your own strengths, your blind spots, your emotions, your leadership style, and your emotional triggers, and helping your team members understand theirs. Now, you might be saying to yourself, hang on Maria, isn’t it more important for me to understand my team members and not myself? Do I really have to do a bunch of woowoo self reflection? And my answer to this is that both are crucial. self reflection is not woowoo. It’s a smart strategy. You need to cultivate a deep and ever evolving understanding of your people, as well as of yourself. It’s not about navel gazing or ego trips, but having a very honest, clear picture of where you shine. And we’ll see where you fall short. Humility goes hand in hand with empathy. So you can recognize that someone else may have a different or better perspective. And that means being real. about how you show up, as well as how you can better connect with others. In fact, letting go of your ego and being curious enough to learn and grow is a sure sign that you’re truly tapping into your empathy. Self awareness is an important success skill for leaders because no one leads in a vacuum, your style preferences. Your pet peeves your needs, your strengths as a leader will influence every single interaction you have at work. And yet, many leaders don’t take the time to understand themselves fully and completely. Self awareness helps you to understand complaints and constructive feedback, know when you might need help navigating a situation and take accountability for your actions. So how do we become more self aware? Some strategies include requesting input from teammates and colleagues, leveraging self assessment tools such as the Enneagram disc or Myers Briggs, and learning to listen deeply? But what are those strategies actually mean? To better understand them to become more self aware, I hope you’ll check out the empathy dilemma for stories from leaders and recommendations for these tactics that go along with putting these strategies into practice and benefiting from the results. The results in how your team engages and performs, and how they innovate. And in the loyalty they will show to you and your customers. And speaking of the book, as I mentioned, there’s a special pre sale offer, you can purchase one to 99 copies of the book at porch light, buy amazing bulk distributor and get 30% off from now until August 27. You’ll get the book in September. Plus you’ll save some chatter. And if you’re interested in helping your favorite podcaster out which hopefully that’s me all pre sales go towards my first week’s sales numbers, which could help get the book on the bestseller list. Check out the deal at the link bit.ly/t E. D, that’s Ted special presale and I will definitely put that link in the show notes. And by the way, when you preorder, please save the receipt to email me because you’ll get some goodies you’re gonna get a VIP invite to an exclusive virtual author q&a and launch party, you’ll get some swag to be determined. And if you order 25 or more books in presale or at launch, you’ll get a free 30 minute virtual author q&a discussion for your team or organization for a limited time. Let me crash your event. Do you want to order more than 99 copies there are tiered volume discounts for that too. Just DM me on Instagram at Red slice Maria or go to my website contact page at the empathy edge.com You’ll be able to check out more about the book and very soon download a free chapter of it at WWW dot v empathy dilemma.com Thank you so much for listening to this week’s heartache. I can’t wait to share the empathy dilemma with you and help you through it. And if you liked this podcast, you know what to do you hear me say it every week. Please share it with a friend or colleague rate and review it and make sure to follow or subscribed. In the meantime, until our next time together. Please remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Stay well and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Logan Mallory: How a Culture of Gratitude Boosts Engagement and Mental Health

US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy has called out an epidemic of loneliness and highlighted how workplaces are one way to help. How can people get their needs for connection and recognition met in appropriate ways at work? And how does this impact the overall performance of the organization?

I dug into these questions and more with Logan Mallory. Today, we talked about why he is so passionate about this work and how his empathy for his customers comes from being a customer himself at one time! We discussed why employers and employees are having so much conflict right now, what leaders can do to improve the employee experience, and simple ways to create an above-and-beyond culture. We talked about how your company can create a Gratitude Flywheel and got real about the short shelf life of “surface perks,” why a more consistent culture is required, especially in dispersed or hybrid environments, and why a workplace can help support community and connection to keep us mentally healthy.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Communication and transparency are two of the pillars to understanding one another’s perspectives. Without that clarity in understanding, there cannot be effective empathy.
People want to be recognized and they want to recognize their peers. According to a Motivosity survey, 75% of people said that their mental health would improve if they were recognized at work more often.
The higher you are in your organization, the less you know about what’s going with your teams and customers creating an iceberg of influence. This is the same for the good and the bad. Put systems in place to help bridge this gap.
Good culture is different for everyone. What leadership in a company needs to do, with input from their team, they need to decide what those values are going to be. When you state who you want to be, that is empathetic for your employees and new recruits.

“We have people that are burnt out, people that are disengaged, you have a mental health crisis in the US. And maybe one of the easiest things employers can do is empower their people to say Thank You more often.” — Logan Mallory

Episode References:

The Empathy Edge podcast episodes:
Rebecca Friese: How To Build A “Good” Culture
Shasta Nelson: Why Successful Leaders Encourage Work Friendships
Claude Silver: Leading with Heart at Vayner Media
Motivosity survey infographic, showing how gratitude leads to better mental health at work.
The Happiness Advantage by Shawn Achor

About Logan Mallory, VP Marketing, Motivosity

Logan Mallory is the Vice President of Marketing at the leading employee recognition software, Motivosity. Mallory is a public speaker, adjunct professor, and thought leader on culture and leadership in the workplace to achieve employee retention. Motivosity helps companies create winning cultures by focusing on gratitude and connection at work. Mallory’s wife, four kids and poodle are all his favorites.

Connect with Logan Mallory:

Motivosity: motivosity.com

X: twitter.com/LoganMMallory

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/loganmallory

Facebook: facebook.com/profile.php?id=100009422255617

Instagram: instagram.com/motivosity

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Logan Mallory 02:36

Thanks for having me. I am excited to spend some time with your audience and to hang out with you Maria.

Maria Ross 02:40

Yeah, it’s always great because this podcast has really branched out into speaking to leaders across marketing, social entrepreneurship, HR Dei, but you know, back to my original wheelhouse of marketing and branding. I love welcoming folks that are doing really innovative things, with their marketing with their own marketing and branding for their customers, but also being part of building a company that is devoted to improving workplace culture. It’s sort of like the happy marriage of the two sides of my interests. So I’m excited to get into it.

Logan Mallory 03:13

It’s a really nice Venn diagram. And I feel the same way. So I’m here for it. I’m here for it.

Maria Ross 03:19

It’s that’s that whole thing. I’ve always said it, my entire marketing career is like, I’m interested in doing marketing for good, not for evil, and marketing and brand. And storytelling has that power to pull us together and help us ignite action and help us persuade and help us to make things better, just as there’s a dark side to it, you know, more of us are hopefully turning towards the light. I hope

Logan Mallory 03:44

so I think that there is so much good that we can do and that has really become a big like cornerstone of my time at motivasi. And in my role, well in marketing at it, it makes both work and life better. When not you’re up, bro.

Maria Ross 03:57

100% 100%. So let’s get into that a little bit. Tell us your story. And what brought you to this work? What was your interest in leading marketing at a company devoted to employee experience and customer experience?

Logan Mallory 04:10

Yeah, you know, I was actually a motive opportunity customer before I ever worked here. And so I worked for a tech company called work front and work Brian used motivasi. And so I spent part of my career there using this tool that focused on connection and community and recognition. And then I left and went to another job that didn’t have that. And I can’t tell you how many times I thought to myself, Oh, I wish I had I wish I had motivasi I wish I had a way to say thank you to my peers. And I and I didn’t. When the opportunity that came up to work promoted paucity. I knew the founder of this organization because he also was the founder of Workfront, where I had worked previously, and Scott stories really fascinating. He started building Workfront Late 90s, like 1999, he was the CEO for a really long time. And they, they built a great company. Eventually, Scott left the CEO role and was on the board of directors and people were a little more comfortable with him. And so they would come up and say things like, you know, what this place has changed. It’s not exactly what it used to be. I feel like a cog in a machine. And, and I don’t know if he was frustrated or disappointed, but I know that Scott wasn’t happy, because he had tried to do all the things to make people happy at work, right, the snack room, the parties, the good health insurance, the PTO policy. And so Scott said, I’m gonna go solve this problem with technology. And that’s how motivasi was born. And I wanted to work for someone with that philosophy, like, I wanted to work for a leader that had that approach, and wanted to work towards something higher. And so here I am, and it’s been a really great three and a half years so far. Okay,

Maria Ross 05:55

there’s quite a few things to unpack in that story. Number one, what a great example of empathy that you were sort of a customer. Uh huh. And now you are working for the company. And you were so able to be empathetic to the needs of your own customers, because you were in their perspective, before you were I am trying to move away from the in their shoes, language these days, sure. But you do see things from their perspective. And you bring that to the work you do. And so often, when we go into roles, I know when I’ve gone into marketing roles, when you’re first there, you’re almost you’re most impactful when you’re first there, because you’re looking at things with a beginner mind and a fresh eyes, you get those fresh eyes, but then you get indoctrinated into the thing, and you sort of go into your ivory tower. And it’s, here’s what I think. And here’s what we think is best. And so we’ll talk a little bit later about what you do as a company to make sure that you still keep that customer perspective, always front and center, because that is one of the most important things about building an empathetic brand is never ever, ever lose it losing sight of the customer experience, and what they want and need and feel and what their goals are. So I love that. And I love this idea of moving beyond, I had a guest on a past episode, I’ll link to it in the show notes, Rebecca freeze, who wrote the book that goes the good culture, and how leaders can create workplaces that don’t suck. And she talks a lot about what many Silicon Valley companies did, or tech companies did in the beginning of of just throwing the veneer on it. Like let’s give them a foosball table, let’s give them free beer Fridays, and thinking that was going to solve culture problems. And I love that, even though those can be fun, and those are great, and even the perks that go along with them and the benefits. There’s a deeper need to connect and engage. And I love that your founder saw that and decided to say how can I look at this from a different angle? And how can we leverage technology to help us better connect and engage because that is something not to replace connection and engagement. We can’t outsource that to AI so to speak. This idea of leveraging technology to bring us closer, can you tell us a little bit more about that philosophy? And give us an example or two of what that looks like?

Logan Mallory 08:11

Yeah, for sure. And I want to take even one step back. I don’t always quote US Surgeon General. But our current US Surgeon General is evac Murthy. And I mean, this is the same administration that normally puts the the warning on cigarette boxes about about cancer, right. And he is now has six priorities. And one of them is the epidemic of loneliness. And the other is well being at work. And when he dives deeper into that He literally says community and connection is one of the ways that workplaces can help solve the health crisis that we’re experiencing in the US. And so I think that is really fascinating. I don’t I don’t know that companies should be the social place to meet all of the social needs for their team members. Right? I don’t think we can solve all of the problems. But organizations should be able to support their team members and be a place where they can get some of that community and connection. So let me give you an example. We’ve we’ve got a customer down the road. At this point, I think they had about 800 employees, and it was a tech company with employees across across the country. But they did have kind of a central group here in Utah. And they use motivasi. They use our tool, and we focus on interest groups. I like to call them micro communities, right, like micro micro cultures. And so these people loved road biking that that was their hobby, and they found each other through our product. So they started spending time together. They started biking in the mornings before work and so all of a sudden, you had people from finance and people from sales and people from support who have otherwise would have never interacted in this 800 person company, they were spending two or three mornings a week together, road biking. Now the company noticed that, and they could have just said, Hey, that’s great, go do your thing. They could have ignored it. But this company like doubled down on that they saw the micro culture and they said, that’s a win for us, we’re going to support that. So they gave them a little bit of money to go buy kits, right? Essentially, they’re Jered their their jerseys. They gave them a little bit of money to go sponsor a few races a year. And so they just, like supported this community. And when you have a community at work, you stay longer, you work harder, you solve problems more effectively, right? Like all of these roadblocks start to go away when you like and care for the people that you’re working with.

Maria Ross 10:50

100% and I am hearing echoes of another person that I interviewed on the show that you should meet actually, Shasta Nelson, she is a social relationship expert, she wrote a book called The business of friendship, citing many of the studies and the experts, one of whom you just mentioned the US Surgeon General, but about this idea of Korea, encouraging friendship in the workplace, not necessarily that we all have to be close to each other. But this idea of being friendly and being joyous and being connected at work, because there’s data around the fact that you know, you’ll you’ll retain employees more if they have a quote unquote, best friend at work as an example. Yeah. And it’s this idea of like, we this is the place where we spend the bulk of our time, it should be a place that we want to come to it doesn’t mean it’s always easy. It doesn’t mean that the work is always fun. But it’s this idea of like, do I feel this sense of belonging? Do I feel this sense of connection and camaraderie? So when I go there, I can contribute my best to the organization? You know,

Logan Mallory 11:56

it’s it’s interesting, and I have a little teeny bit of a different opinion about some of that, but not the overall concept. Gartner, Gartner in there, they have 12 questions that they asked about culture, and one of them is do you have a best friend at work? And I kind of laugh at that, because I actually don’t expect my work to replace John and Cory and Doug, who are my college roommates and my best men and like, I don’t expect work to replace them. But I expect work to help me have relationships with people that I like. And so I think about that, as you know, if I had to travel with this person, if I had to jump on a flight and go to London with this human being, would it be miserable? And what I dread it? Or would I have a good time on this work? Train, right. And so for me, there is this balance, like, I don’t want companies to feel like they have to provide the best friend, that’s really hard to do. Because it late best friends are created out of this deep life experience. I want them to provide me with people that I like that I would be happy going to lunch with, that I would not be opposed to hanging out with on a weekend or after work hours. And that might be a more might be a more like consumable goal for companies. Yeah, than a best friend.

Maria Ross 13:07

Well, and I think that’s the point. It’s not necessarily your best friend in life, but is that my best friend at work? Right in that situation. And as speaking as someone who met multiple lifelong best friends from my first job out of college and met my husband at work, we do form those relationships because, and then there’s some times where you, you are working in a company and you’re really, really close to someone, if you both leave, and you go your separate ways. That’s okay, too. It can be seasonal, temporary, but in those moments, when I was working with those people, I kind of felt like they were my quote unquote, best friends. And it gave me something to look forward to. To your point, when I have to do work, that’s a slog. When I have to travel for work, are these people that I know have my back? Do I feel comfortable with them? Do I feel like I can show up? Do I feel like I can offer out crazy ideas, or creative ideas, and not be afraid to take risks in front of these people? I think that’s when we really do our best work. If we’re sort of pretending to be somebody we not we’re not to protect ourselves when we go to work. That’s that’s a sign that we’re not really giving our most innovative selves to our work.

Logan Mallory 14:13

Yeah. And it absolutely means when we’re not giving our most innovative selves, that absolutely means that work isn’t getting our best result, right? We’re probably just doing whatever we’ve always done and checking the boxes the same way and not not coming up with new solutions to old problems or new solutions to new problems.

Maria Ross 14:32

I love it. I love it. So in your opinion, and I have a whole book coming out in the fall called the empathy dilemma about my own musings about this. But I’d love from your perspective in the trenches working with customers that are trying to improve their cultures. Why do you think employers and employees are having so much conflict right now?

Logan Mallory 14:52

Yeah, you know, I think about a relationship between employees and employers as a pendulum. And I think it kind of swings back and forth. And for basically most of human history, it was in favor of the employer, right. And then probably 100 110 years ago that like, started to shift, and we’ve seen it swing back and forth, right after COVID. It was, you know, for a minute, it was an employers market, and everybody was just holding, still trying to do whatever their employer needed. After COVID, it very much became the employee focused and people were leaving jobs and demanding more flexibility and making a lot of demands. And even in the last, I’d say, two quarters, we’ve seen that pendulum go back in favor of the of the employer, right, you have all these people that are all these layoffs, hundreds of 1000s of tech slash tech layoffs, and so employees are afraid again. And what I hope is that someday, as a society, we can, we can balance that out better, so that it is more so that the right things are being focused on, right for both groups. But you know, I’m a people manager, and I’ve got a team. And what I’ve realized is the more senior I get in my career, the more it is just about people problems. Yeah, like I spent so much of my day thinking about my team and who has what, that I can help solve that work. These two people aren’t getting along, how do I bridge that gap? This person has something happening at home? How do I support them as a human? And, and so like, I do think it’s hard because the conflict is real. The company needs to make money. Like we’re not, we’re not all here for social causes, right? You have to make money. And most of the wants or needs of the employees are in opposition to that they want more freedom, they want more money, they want more perks they like, and so I do think that we have to, and I won’t say be in each other’s shoes, since you’re avoiding that. I do think with each other’s perspective, we have to see each other’s perspectives. Yeah. And understand the realities of both sides. Yeah. And I’d say one of the solutions to that is really great communication and transparency, when we’re honest. And my talk about realities, that makes those conversations

Maria Ross 17:09

easier. 100% actually, in the new book coming out, one of the five pillars of being an effective and empathetic leader is clarity, because you can you can be as empathetic as you want. But if people are not on the same page, it doesn’t matter. You’re not even seeing you’re not even watching the same film. Right. Right. So I can’t even see the film through your perspective, because I’m in another theater. Right? Right, exactly. So it’s that idea of being able to be crystal clear. And also, one of the other pillars is decisiveness. Because I think what happens is a lot of very well intentioned leaders get caught up in people pleasing, which is actually not empathy, it’s submission, right? It’s, I’m just going to try to make everybody happy, which is an impossibility. So the clearer you can be in, the more decisive you can be, that’s when you can open up empathy, as you know, I’m sure you’ve experienced where you do have to make a tough decision. But I can use empathy as a leader to communicate that decision in a certain way. Or provide someone who’s particularly struggling with that decision, maybe some extra support. Yeah, but it’s those levers, right? Yeah,

Logan Mallory 18:15

exactly. It hasn’t been too long ago, but I was in a conversation with a team member. And this is a really great team member, like, they do really great work. They’ve been here for a few years, and, and are like wanting to grow. And I want them to grow. But the reality is, is that like within within the realm with which this person wants to grow, like, we don’t have the opportunities at the moment. And so it was a really interesting conversation to sit across the table from this person and say, You’re great talent. And if you want to be able to grow that way, like I will be your reference, I will help you learn, I will give you some projects to help you move that direction. But I don’t have that answer here. I like I can’t solve your problem in today’s work environment. Right. And that doesn’t make it an easy conversation to have. But it does kind of eliminate some question marks, right, because the decisions were made, the conversation was had, and so like that gives that per that helps that person know their real options.

Maria Ross 19:18

I love that story. And I mentioned a story about that in the new book, because it’s this idea of we can’t completely give all our agency to our employers to sort of like sit back and fold our arms and say, What do you got? Right? It’s got to go both ways. And part of that agency is understanding in a very kind, compassionate, respectful way, that maybe this isn’t the place for you anymore. Not for any bad reason. But but this is what the company needs to do. This is how the company needs to move forward. And if that doesn’t align with your values, I get it. So how can I support you in finding a place where you better meet your needs and your values because we just can’t do that for you here? err, yeah. And that doesn’t have to be a conversation. Right. It doesn’t have to be a contentious conversation. Yeah,

Logan Mallory 20:06

and I think that oftentimes, especially in, especially in today’s environment, and with, kind of, I’m gonna use the word entitled, like, we have some entitlement. And then that keeps us from seeing realities. i If I can share the story, it’s a few years old, but I was in a in a, in a role. And I got a call from appspot. Right a marketer’s dream, I got a call from a HubSpot recruiter. And it was one of those calls where I like almost texted my wife on the other line and was like, pack your bags, we’re moving to Boston. At the end of the call, at the end of the call, the recruiter said, Tell me about the budget that you’re managing. And I said, I’m managing a few $100,000. It’s mostly on licenses and tools. And I could hear this recruiter get bored with me. And they weren’t disrespectful. But they basically said, like, oh, that’s, that’s not going to cut it. And so I, I realized that my next role had better include a really large budget. And eventually that opportunity came knocking. And there was an opportunity to manage a multi million dollar budget. And the company that I worked for, said, What could we do to keep you here? And I said, unfortunately, you’d have to give me Mike’s job. Like, that’s the job. I have to have to keep me here. Yeah. And Mike was really good at his job. So it wasn’t I didn’t take it personal from the company that I couldn’t have that. I took it on myself. That was my career and my responsibility to get the experience I needed. Yeah, I just couldn’t do that there. So we shook hands and, and high fived and left with a really amicable departure. And I wish it could be like that more often. I wish. I wish we saw that more often. You had the

Maria Ross 21:45

clarity, though. And I think that’s what’s so important. I did it, I did an interview. I’ll link to that in the show notes as well with Claude silver, who’s the the Chief Heart Officer at VaynerMedia, Gary Vaynerchuk, X marketing company. And she talked about the fact that when they started to get really clear about not just job requirements, but expectations and values and progression and opportunity, and how you’re expected to show up and lead, she said entitlement sort of vanished, because we were so clear that it wasn’t that people were constantly asking, right? It’s like, everyone was clear, everyone was being honest, everyone was being transparent. And they understood what was in front of them. There was no sort of guessing about like, Well, I’m just not getting this opportunity. Because whatever reason you make up in your head, right, right. And so this idea of kind of coming back to it again, about clarity, and communication is so important, because it can actually eradicate some entitlement perceived entitlement, where entitlement can just be someone’s, you know, ambition, it could be someone’s desire, it could be some something burning inside of someone that says, I’m running out of time, and I need to do this, whatever, whatever the emotional and logical reasons are for that those requests. It’s that clarity can have that conversation of like, okay, I’m not happy with this, but I understand where the company’s coming from. And I understand they’re doing everything they can. And now I have to make a decision back to agency of is this the best place for me right now? Because, you know, like you said earlier, like, you can’t just make more VP positions just because people want them. Right, exactly. So it’s that it’s that idea of really nurturing someone and going okay, I see you. And I see you’re ready for this next role. And unfortunately, we don’t have that role available for you here. So what can we do while you try to find that role?

Logan Mallory 23:40

Yeah, it’s, there’s so many dynamics to have to manage. Yeah. And again, being able to see each other’s perspectives can really help with that. Yeah.

Maria Ross 23:48

So I want to I want to talk a little bit about what you’re hearing from your customers, as they look to your product to help them increase communication and clarity and collaboration. What are the challenges that they tend to come to you with and and how does a solution like yours? How does technology help solve those problems? For leaders and cultures?

Logan Mallory 24:10

I think that when people think about motivasi, they they come to us through two separate doors typically. One is very as we’ve kind of talked about community and connection related, right, they have they have dispersed workforces, they have multiple offices, we work with a decent number of financial institutions where they’re, you know, across different branches. And and they want to take what is a good culture and do two things. The first thing is cement that good culture and make it a great culture. Right. So like, I don’t I don’t think motivasi solves your bad culture problem. Now I think when you have a have a good culture, we help you like, turn that into something more tangible and kind of the the like Town Square like the place where everyone comes in the company,

Maria Ross 24:58

almost like codify it. I’d like to systematize it in a way I did that sounds so cold. I don’t mean it to sound that way, but in a way that makes it repeatable and scalable and inclusive of everyone. Exactly,

Logan Mallory 25:10

exactly. So with the community and the connection piece like that really is, how do we create the happy spot that your employees want to go, so many tools are created for the administrator or for corporate in mind. And motivasi kind of becomes the social intranet. And and our adoption is so high, because people want to go there, it’s where they’re seeing the highlights, it’s where they’re getting the good news throughout the company. It’s where they’re like, where they’re getting their onboarding experience from a culture perspective. So from day one, motivasi helps you and I’m going to steal your word Maria codify your culture and your values. And and like this, that that community matters within your organization. The second door that people approach us through and this is, frankly, what motivasi was born from, like this is our entire legacy is through a recognition door. People want to recognize their team members. And so often well intentioned executives or HR people default to what you mentioned earlier, the foosball table, the pizza party. And it’s not that those things are bad, right, they default to swag. I’m wearing my motivasi hat today that love this hat. And we’re all the time. But it doesn’t get me out of bed on Monday mornings. And it doesn’t make me a better team member.

Maria Ross 26:29

I was mentioned when I’ve referenced Rebecca freeze earlier and her book, the good culture, she talks about that as bungee nearing. Like it’s a way to, it’s a way to hide a little bit of like, oh, solve our culture problem. That’s called fungineer thing. So yeah, that’s it. That’s, but that’s often what we default to when we don’t know that there’s a different way. It’s exactly well intentioned, as you said, it’s

Logan Mallory 26:51

super well intentioned, but the shelf life on it is almost non existent. It lasts for a day or two, and then it’s kind of just and then it is just this the expected standard. And so what motivasi does, is motivasi, recruits all of your team members to look for and recognize the good things happening in your culture. And so we do that we wish give every team member a few dollars every month, normally like three to five bucks. And they can only use those dollars to say thank you to someone else. And so you end up again, in the same place where your community and your connection and your micro cultures and your org chart are, you end up with this social feed of all the positive things happening throughout the company. And, and so like, I feel recognized people are seen, they feel like their day to day work is is being noticed. There’s this this theory that I talk about a lot. It’s called the iceberg of ignorance. And the concept is that the higher you are in an organization, the less that you know about what’s happening throughout the, you know, kind of the the bottom of the org, that’s

Maria Ross 28:01

a real, that’s actually been studied that Yeah, that happens that you act and actually What’s also been studied is that many founders lose their empathy as the organization gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and they get further and further from the people and the customer. Right?

Logan Mallory 28:15

Yeah, exactly that that distance grows, and you lose the empathy, you don’t really know what’s happening. And I would, I think lots of times the iceberg of ignorance is referenced with the problems, right? The drama in the company, the systems and the processes that don’t work. It’s also very true for the winds and the good things, the higher you are in the organization, you can’t see the day to day things that people are doing to contribute, let alone take the time to thank them. And so motivasi, it puts that kind of power to recognize in the hands of of the individuals. And it makes a massive difference on culture. One, one last stat on that Maria, we did a survey motivasi did of 2000 people. And 75% of people said that they thought their mental health would improve if they were recognized at work more often. And so we’ve we have people that are burnt out, you have people that are disengaged, you have mental a mental health crisis in the United States. And maybe one of the easiest things employers can do is to empower their people to say thank you more often.

Maria Ross 29:21

I love that. Is that a publicly available survey? The

Logan Mallory 29:25

survey data is somewhere we did that in combination with one poll, and I would be thrilled to to send a link Yes. So that you can share that

Maria Ross 29:34

a link. Yeah, we’ll put a link in the show notes to that because that is powerful. And I also just want to point out this idea of, you know, as I talked about in the book, the empathy edge, that you have to be walking your talk and part of the walking your talk is modeling, celebrating and recognizing that this value, whether it’s empathy, whether it’s service, whatever your company decides to call empathy, right? Or caring about each other. Whatever. It’s just a nice bullet on a poster on the wall, that the brand strategist raising my hand said should be important, right? But comes to life when you model it when you celebrate it when it’s recognized, and people see that it is celebrated. And they start to understand this is how I can find success here. So what I love about what you’re saying is this idea of peer recognition and executive recognition and making it so public creates a learning environment that this is who we are. And even if you were skeptical about it, when you joined our organization, you’re seeing it in action. And now you want to get on that bus. So now it’s who can I thank, who can I recognize? I want to I want to participate in this, that when we do so much of that recognition behind closed doors, or just like a bonus check every quarter that nobody else sees. We’re not really we’re not really creating a culture that celebrates and models recognition and empathy and understanding and like you said, being seen.

Logan Mallory 31:06

Yeah, we we talk about that a lot as like this virtuous cycle, right. And I know that concept is used in a lot of places are the idea of a flywheel, it’s, it’s kind of like the gratitude starts. And then it just takes on a life of its own. And so you don’t even have to think about it anymore. Because it just becomes a part of who your people are. Reading. I’m reading right now The Happiness Advantage by a Shawn I believe it’s a corps who has a infamous TED Talk. And he talks about the impact of happiness on cultures, right? And how people who work from a positive perspective, are faster, quicker or faster. They’re just better on all the metrics. And gratitude is a big part of being happy. Absolutely,

Maria Ross 31:52

absolutely. And we’ve even talked on the show about gratitude being a great gateway to empathy, because it gets you out of your own situation and sort of get you in a very external mindset of looking up from whatever you’re dealing with. And saying, what what am I grateful for? Who am I grateful for around me? And then to your point, then taking that that next step? So what kinds of transformations have you seen from clients, or customers that have implemented this? Or is there any sort of even if it’s anonymous, any sort of before or after you can share with us,

Logan Mallory 32:29

one of one of my very favorite conversations that I’ve ever had with a customer is actually from from an organization, it’s called Desert, first credit union, their credit union kind of in the western states here, and, and I’m happy to share this because that their their president and CEO, Shane London, shared it with us. And we’ve used it all the time. Shane has been with Deseret first credit union for a really long time. And like, basically been in every role the organization has, right. And when we were interviewing him about the impact of gratitude and connection, he said, you know, I’ll be honest, when when my team brought mode of audacity to me, my CFO attitude, my skeptic attitude came out. And I did not think that this was going to work. And his exact words were, Boy, was I wrong. And I think that the reason that Shane and their organization sees so much value and Moto biocity, is because they have all these branches that are disconnected. And it can be hard to create a consistent culture, when you’re not all in the same place. Like that adds an extra element, and motivasi it helps them focus on that, again, I want to be really clear, I think desert first credit union had a good culture before and motivasi helped codify that and make that a great culture across across the board. So I think they were doing a lot of things, right. You know, one of our, we were with a really big company in kind of the FinTech area. And they wanted, they wanted to create a more powerful Foundation for their culture. And so they would use the appreciations in their feed in each of their in each of their all hands meetings, and the executive would get up and reference those. They would, they would use motivasi to like, help onboard people and help them understand the values of the company. And like they weren’t just appreciations. They were recognitions around when values were being lived. And when one of their senior executives left that company. And her first phone call at her new organization was was to us and so like, we just hear people say that we hear people say that motor velocity helps our employees feel seen route work. Right. And, and that’s really hard to do. Like, you can’t do that in a one day pizza party. Right.

Maria Ross 34:48

Right. And you know, and we should add, I mean, of course, like, you’re on the show, You’re my guest and there’s probably other technology solutions out there that can help people. But I think what I’m hearing you say Hang as well, what I’m seeing as the common thread is that it wasn’t like, it’s probably not a good idea to start at throwing technology at something if you don’t know what your culture problems actually are. Am I hearing you right? Like, is there some work that needs to be done before technology can be a panacea and solve your problems? Like what would you say a company needs to really honestly look at? Before they can expect that technology will help them? Just deal? You know, quote, unquote, deal with all the people issues?

Logan Mallory 35:31

Yeah, I have I have two answers. They’re the super obvious answer is the values. What what do you care about? What do you want to convey? Like whether you know, you are you had mentioned, you had mentioned service or empathy, but like, it could be a million things, right. But pick some that you really care about. And then the other challenge that I would offer is, do you really care, like, if you are an executive, or a leader, or a person in HR, if you’re trying to check a box, then don’t invest the money, don’t invest technology, like just go check a box in whatever way you want to do it. If you sincerely want to create a great place to work, where you care about your people, and they can thrive both as their skill set, and as their human being, like, what they what they want to prioritize? If that’s truly valuable to you, then I think that that’s the question you need to answer and you should be sincere about it. Not every place has to be a great place to work, like some places can be all about the money. And some places can be a stepping stone, and some places can be the you know, like a law firm that it’s all it’s all about the hourly and the and the billable hours. And like, I guess what I appreciate is that, and maybe this is my patriotic side and rear coming out. I’m grateful to live in a in a country where there can be different options. And there can be different places, because not everybody speaks my love language.

Maria Ross 37:00

Well, I love that you said that. Because good culture is different for everyone. Yeah. And what accompany has to do with the leadership of a company has to do hopefully, with the input of their best people, you know, not, we’re not going to go in a boardroom and then decide between the six of us what our values are for a 200 person company, right? Yeah. And this is why when I do my brand strategy and brand messaging projects, I bring together a cross sectional group together that’s like, I don’t even know what marketing does, why am I here? Right? It’s because you have a different perspective on the company and on what we do and on our values. But you know, getting gathering that input, synthesizing that input, and then deciding this is who we want to be. Because when you clearly state that that’s actually empathetic for your employees to know, what have they gotten themselves into? And is this the right place for me or not? Right, but it’s also empathetic to your recruits. So you’re putting a band a very clear banner out there. This is who we are, this is what we stand for you if you did this, come work with us. And you know, there’s companies right now post pandemic, that are, you know, making some questionable leadership decisions. And I talk about a few of them in the new book. But also, one thing I have always said is at least you know, where they stand. Exactly, if that’s okay, for someone, they just need to be okay with taking the responsibility for the stance that they’re taking. Yes. Do you know what I’m saying? And so it’s this idea that, like, if you really do want to attract the best talent, and you know, that within Gen Z, and younger millennials, these things, you know, and all the data is there, these things are important to them. If you’re gonna say, No, that’s not important to us, you need to accept the responsibility for that decision as well, of the impact is going to have on your business.

Logan Mallory 38:45

Yeah, and I bet you, you also can’t please everyone, like Hypersoft, you can’t craft a group of values. That is the perfect banner for every US citizen. I was, excuse me for I guess quoting myself, maybe this is a little weird. I was in the LA Times not too long ago, when there was an article about about Elon Musk and Twitter and what culture he was creating. And again, I will defend for or against

Maria Ross 39:11

my his approval, confirm or deny. Yeah, right.

Logan Mallory 39:14

But you know, exactly what Elon Musk, you know, the banner he’s putting up and it is meritocracy and hard work, and dedication and toeing the line. Like, right, that’s, that’s the flag he put up. Right. And if you don’t like it, it’s claimed as different. Yeah, at least, you know, it’s time to move on. Well, and

Maria Ross 39:33

that’s the risk that that leadership team runs in terms of long standing sustainable business performance and innovation, right? So if they understand the risks, and they want to, you know, defy the data file that they can but I think it’s this idea, you know, and I’ve, I’ve long said this in my brand strategy work. You can’t be all things to all people or you end up being nothing to no one so you as a company Leadership along with your employees need to decide who we are. And that’s not just five bullets on a website. Yes, if we’re going to claim that these, it’s also not 14 values because I was in a, I was in a workshop one time with a company that said, when I asked them about their values, because we were going to revamp their their values for their brand messaging, they were like, Hold on, let me check the website, because I can’t remember them all. And I’m like, exactly, and throw them away, because

Logan Mallory 40:26

they’re not doing you any good, right? There’s, there’s your first problem, there’s your first

Maria Ross 40:30

problem, right? And you’re not actually living by them. But what are those values? And then take that next step of what are the behaviors that show us that those values are being lived out? So what are the examples that we give to our leaders to say, if we’re going to look at your performance review and judge you or assess you based on how you’ve lived these values? Do I, as a manager, or leader actually have the actions and behaviors that we have determined? Show each of those values? Because if I don’t, I’m just making it up. Right? Yeah. So linking to your point about recognition and whatever. If we don’t agree what each of those values look like in action? How can we acknowledge and reward it doesn’t matter how great our technology is? Great thought, I love it. I love that. Yeah. So um, so as we as we wrap up, what is what is your biggest piece of advice to a leader listening to this right now that’s like, Hey, we are we are struggling, as an example with hybrid work, or a dispersed workforce. And we think technology can solve our problem, but we’re not really sure. What would be your your first two steps they should take.

Logan Mallory 41:43

So I think that you nailed one of those, you need to look at the team members that exemplify what you want. And hopefully you have some of those in the organization. But who are the team members that that exemplify if you could clone that person? Who are they, and making sure that you have their input and their feedback, and that you’re very intentional about any kind of caught a theme here, Maria? Like I think intentionality is one of our is one of our themes today. You can’t you don’t need to say yes to all of the ideas that your team members give. Right. But if you’re going to say no, help them understand why if they say we think this should be a value, or our culture should be based on this, and you’re going to disagree with that. Why is it? Is it budget? Is that something in your background? Is it an experience you had with with a former employer, and I think kind of explaining that can go a long way? Well, one of the very best things that a leader can do when it comes to improving culture or changing culture. And I actually believe this happens just as well, at the individual level as the team level, is what I call a relationship reset. And that’s not my phrase, I’m certainly borrowing that. But I think that the concept is being able to say, Hey, this is our current reality. And we’re interacting, this, we’re interacting, and I don’t like how it’s going. And I’d really like to reset that. I’d like to, I’d like to start over. And here’s what I can do differently. What could this look like to you? Let me give you an example of that. My, my team, the vast majority of my team has been here for a few years, at motivasi. And I started notice a couple of months ago that things felt kind of stale. Like it, it just felt like we were doing the same thing over and over. And so for one of our team meetings, I said, Listen, like I can feel that we’re all a little tired. Like, even at a place with a really great culture. Yeah, I can tell that we’re that, that we’ve been doing the same thing. And just

Maria Ross 43:42

to interject in there, too. It’s the what do you guys think? Yeah. Like, are you feeling this? How do you is this all in my head? Like what? You know, and opening that door for them to give their perspective as well of like, actually, yeah, it’s been a little weird, you know? Yeah, I love that. Sorry, go on. I

Logan Mallory 43:58

know, I appreciate that. And I think I did that more in the individual conversations, and then brought that sentiment to the, to the meeting to the group. But I, I basically said, like, I think one of the things that we’re not doing is putting new inputs into our head, so that we have new outputs, right. And so like, we watched, we watched a TED talk. And I said, Hey, for the next for the next little bit, whenever we have our team meetings, I want you to come to the meeting. And we’re going to spend the first 15 minutes talking about the new things you learned whether it was a new conversation over over lunch, whether it was a podcast or a book, or a YouTube video, like I want you and sometimes it’s going to be worker related. Sometimes it’s going to be just related to you but like, I want you to be putting in new inputs. And and I think that’s been pretty successful. We’ve we’ve had some really great conversations, the team is looking at new ideas, and we’re trying things we haven’t done before. And I attribute all of that to just the concept of a relationship reset. And so for leaders Don’t be afraid to say this isn’t working, we need to push the reset button. How do we push that button together?

Maria Ross 45:06

I love that I let’s leave it there because that is such a great, a great piece of advice. That is low cost. Yep, low risk, and will actually help your people feel seen heard and valued by by getting them together and saying our relationship as a team. And my relationship with each of you is important to me. And so we want to make it as positive of an experience for everybody as we can, because that’s going to help us deliver results to the organization. You

Logan Mallory 45:37

nailed it.

Maria Ross 45:38

I love it. Logan, I could talk to you for a whole another hour or two. But we gotta go. So I will have all your links in the show notes as promised. But for folks on the go, where’s one of the best places they can connect with you or learn more about your work? motivasi.com

Logan Mallory 45:51

is a really easy place and I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. If you just look for Logan Mallory, you’ll see a guy wearing a hat with a goofy smile. And that’s me.

Maria Ross 46:01

That’s your signature. I love it. So it’s motivasi motivosity.com. You guys, thank you again for such a great conversation. I’m sure it won’t be the last that we have. And thanks for your insights today.

Logan Mallory 46:15

Thanks to you and your audience. I

Maria Ross 46:16

appreciate it. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast if you like what you heard you know what to do, rate review and share it with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, please remember that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Paul Rutter: Could you Live with Your Customers and Colleagues, 24/7?

Could YOU or YOUR company survive if you had to live and work with your customers and coworkers? Hearing every bit of praise, every complaint, and every…everything? That’s what life is like for the cruise industry, where crew and customers live together for weeks in the middle of the ocean. And it’s why my guest today, Paul Rutter, helps land-based companies apply the lessons he’s learned from the cruise ship industry to create exceptional customer experiences.

Today, we talk about what he learned about both customer experience and culture from working in the cruise industry, and how to ensure your employees are supported so they can show up with the right attitude and deliver great customer care. We discuss what to look for in hiring, how to empower employees to solve problems right away, why gossip is a culture killer, the importance of top execs getting in the trenches, and the link between empathy, innovation, and risk-taking. Paul even shares how to deal with extreme customer disappointments – like weddings canceled due to hurricanes – and how empathy helps turn those experiences into lifetime customer value, loyalty, and referrals.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Hire for attitude. Skills can be trained (and training is so, so important and should be done regularly), but without the right attitude having the right skills won’t matter.
Learn about and celebrate the differences of those onboard your team. You need to take care of your employees and they will take care of your customers. You want your employees to be your raving brand ambassadors.
If you’re in the C-Suite, take time to work how your lower-level employees work each day. It is important for the employees to see and for the executives to know what your employees are dealing with every day.

“We have one goal on board a ship. That’s it. And it should be the goal of all of your listeners as well: Create such an exceptional experience that exceeds expectations that they will come back because they’ve had such a great experience.” — Paul Rutter

About Paul Rutter, Chief Experience Officer:

After three decades as a global cruise director who lived with his team and clients, speaker, trainer, and author Paul Rutter knows that “perfect” is just a starting point. He knows that with today’s abundance of options for customers, every single experience they have is critical to running a successful business. Paul helps companies around the world set a standard for unmatched customer service.

Recognized by USA Today, ABC, NBC, MarketWatch, and FOX, Paul Rutter is a customer experience expert, speaker, bestselling author, and founder of the More Than Perfect service model. Paul is the author of the bestseller You Can’t Make This Ship Up, a hilarious look at the lessons he’s learned at sea and now applies to land-based businesses. He is also the creator of the strategic guide, Repeat Business Inc: The Business of Staying in Business.

Connect with Paul Rutter:

Smooth Sailing Communication, Inc: PaulRutterSpeaks.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/parutter

Instagram: Instagram.com/PaulRutterSpeaks

Book: You Can’t Make This Ship Up; Business Strategies, Life Lessons and True Stories From 40 Years at Sea

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work, to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Could you or your company survive if you had to live and work with your customers and co workers, hearing every bit of praise every complaint, and everything. That’s what life is like for the cruise industry, where crew and customers live together for weeks at a time in the middle of the ocean. And it’s why my guest today helps land based companies apply the lessons he’s learned from the cruise ship industry to create exceptional customer experiences. After three decades as a global cruise director who lived with his team and clients, Speaker trainer and author Paul rudder knows that perfect is just a starting point. He knows that with today’s abundance of options for customers, every single experience they have is critical to running a successful business. Paul helps companies around the world set a standard for unmatched customer service. Recognized by USA Today, ABC, NBC, MarketWatch and Fox. Paul is a customer experience expert speaker best selling author, and founder of the more than perfect service model. Paul is the author of best seller, you can’t make this shit up a hilarious look at the lessons he’s learned at sea and now applies to land based businesses. He’s also the creator of the strategic guide, repeat business, Inc, the business of staying in business. Today we talk about what he learned about both customer experience and culture from working in the cruise industry, how to ensure your employees are supported so they can show up with the right attitude and deliver great customer care. We discussed what to look for in hiring how to empower employees to solve problems right away. Why gossip is a culture killer, the importance of top execs getting in the trenches, and the link between empathy and innovation and risk taking. Paul even shares how to deal with extreme customer disappointments, like weddings canceled due to hurricanes, and how Empathy helps turn those experiences into Lifetime Customer Value, loyalty and referrals. Take a listen. Welcome Paul Rutter to the empathy edge podcast, I am so excited to have this conversation with you about living with your customers 24/7 And what that’s like and what you’ve learned. So welcome to the empathy edge podcast.

Paul Rutter 03:03

Thank you so much. It’s great to be with you.

Maria Ross 03:05

So tell us a little bit we heard your bio, but tell us a little bit about your story, and your experiences at sea. And what got you into this work now of consulting with organizations and helping them better connect with their customers to create winning customer experiences.

Paul Rutter 03:22

So I come to you from the hospitality industry, the travel industry, but more specifically the cruise industry. And as you mentioned, I’ve been working on board cruise ships for I hate to say this close to 40 years now. And it’s one of the very few industries where you actually live with your customers 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So Maria, let me ask you have you cruise before? Have you taken a cruise?

Maria Ross 03:47

Oh, I have not. I am not necessarily a cruise fan. But I come from a family of big cruise addicts. So, yes.

Paul Rutter 03:56

So we’ll have to get you on there one of these days. Because there’s some magnificent ships all over the world, all different sizes, all different products that they have. But one of the things that we learn on board is that you know, you have no excuses. If there’s a problem with your customer, you have to take care of it right away. You can’t have any excuses. And so if somebody comes to our front desk and says, My toilets not working, we’re not going to say well, it’s the weekend we’ll send somebody on Monday. No, we send somebody within 30 minutes to solve any problems because if you have a stuck toilet, you know they’re not going to your customers are not going to be happy about it. Same thing with air conditioning or if they have a problem with their key or you know anything else on board. We have to take care of our situations, problems, complaints or whatever you want to call them. We have to take care of them very quickly because if we don’t, they’re going to be right there. We’re going to walk around the corner and we’re going to run into those people again. And so we have to have policies, procedures, and really put ensembles in place in order to deal with all sorts of problems, some of the largest ships in the world, there’s over 6000 guests on board, along with over 2000 crew that’s over 8000 people in a big metal boat in the middle of the ocean, what could possibly go wrong? Well, pretty much everything can go wrong. We’re sitting in the middle of the ocean there. And so we have to be prepared for all sorts of things that go wrong. And so we deal with that. And so that’s why when I talk with businesses on land, the first question I ask is, could you or your company survive if you had to live with your customers? And their eyes get very big? And they go, no, no, there is no way that I could live, there would be violence involved at some point. In that relationship, I could not live with my customers. And if you add to that, we also live with our coworkers 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So the person that we just worked in the dining room or a state room attendant, or next to each other at the front desk, or crew, staff members, or singers and dancers on board, they could be roommates at the end of the day. And so we have to keep our employees engaged, we have to have a great culture on board, we have to have a lot of employee engagement, our employees come from close to 70 different countries, Americans on board are the minority. And so, you know, how do you keep your employees engaged so that when they wake up and walk out of their cabin, they’re gonna have a big smile on their face. And they’re going to want to give to tremendous service, so that people come back, because we have one goal on board a ship. And that’s it. And it should be the goal of all of your listeners as well. And that should be to create such an exceptional experience that exceeds expectations that your customers will come back. Because they’ve had such a great experience. So onboard our ships, our goal is to exceed expectations. So people will book their next cruise right then and there. It’s an impulse buy, people buy an emotion. And if we’re doing a great job, now, we they don’t want to risk going to our competitors, and maybe not having that same great experience. So our goal is to create such an exceptional experience that exceeds expectations, they will book their next vacation with us, and 98% of the time that they put down a small deposit, they don’t even have to tell us what ship or where they want to go. They’re just reserving a room a state room on one of our ships 98% of the time they take their next vacation with us. So if your listeners know that 98% of the time their customers are going to come back to them over and over again, wouldn’t they do what’s necessary to exceed those expectations. And so that’s what we do on board a ship has tried to exceed those expectations. So they come back right away,

Maria Ross 07:56

right. And so you’re helping land based businesses adopt these philosophies. And in your book, called, you can’t make the ship up, which I love the title, you offer this hilarious look at the lessons that you’ve learned at sea, but applying them to land based businesses. So I have so many questions. But I want to start with, before I get to the external customer experience, I want to talk first about the opposite side of that coin, which is the culture that you create. And we talk a lot about, I talk a lot about empathy starting from the inside out, or really any brand attribute starting from the inside out, it’s got to be genuine, it’s got to be authentic, and it’s got to be lived inside the organization. So externally, it can be shown by the employees. You talk about building a culture based around exceptional customer service. And I’m wondering, because of the extremes of the environment for the cruise ship industry, the challenges that you mentioned where you’re living with your customers 24/7 And you’re living with your work mates, your colleagues 24/7? Is there something specific you hire for? And how do you screen for it? If you need to find someone that can thrive in that type of very different culture?

Paul Rutter 09:15

We hire for one thing and one thing only and that is attitude, you have to have the right attitude in order to work on board. There’s an old saying I’m sure you’ve heard hire for attitude train for skill, and that we can do weather. Now if you’re gonna if you’re being hired as a waiter in the restaurant. Yes, we want you to have some restaurant experience. Yes, if you’re we’re hiring you as a stateroom attendant. We want you to have some sort of experience but we can train you how to do the job. But if you don’t have the right attitude to be away from home for four or six or eight months of the time, then you’re not going to fit in now. Training is so important. Now, I know that some land based businesses when they have new hires, they may do an hour of training and that they never, they never do training. Again, we do constant training. And that’s one of the big things, there’s the first of all, for us on board a ship safety and security is the most important thing for us. Because we have to deal with things in the middle of the ocean, you know, fires and groundings or, you know, all sorts of problems like that. And so we have to hire for attitude. But in order to keep your employees engaged, you have to bring a little bit of their home onto the ship with them. So, for instance, as Americans for breakfast mean, we may want fruit, or eggs or bacon. But if you’re from the Philippines, or from Indonesia, or from India, you don’t want that for breakfast, you want rice and you want beef, or you want fish. And so the ships do a very good job, the cruise lines of of trying to bring home a little bit of creature comforts in order to make our crew members feel at home. And we have a saying onboard. And I’m sure it’s the same saying that many land based businesses have is that happy crew equals happy guests. If you keep your crew happy, then they’re going to go out and deliver the product that you really want them to. And so we have some things in place. So for instance, we talk about empathy. Being away from home is so difficult, especially when you’re new. But what happens if you have a family member, your mother is gone into the hospital, and you’ve heard this, how’re you able to go see your parents or your brothers getting married and you want to go to the wedding, it’s in the middle of your contract. So we do things called compassionately where we allow our crew members to be able to fly home for two weeks up to two weeks at a time to take care of business at home. So that they know if there’s a problem, I’m going on a ship for eight months. But if there’s a problem, I’m able to come home and take care of it. And so that’s really important for our crew members to know. And it’s, you know, it’s putting ourselves in their shoes. I mean, that’s what empathy is all about is, you know, if the same situation happened to us, how would we want to be treated, and that’s how we want to be able to treat our crew members there. So we do have things like compassion leave, we’ll also do things you know, we celebrate birthdays on the board, we celebrate independence day. So if it’s Jamaican Independence Day, and we have a number of Jamaican crew members on board, we’ll have a big party for the Jamaican crew members. You know, if it’s Fourth of July for the Americans, we’ll have a fourth of July party. So we will celebrate the differences that we bring on board. And it’s it’s one of the best things about the job of working on board is learning and dealing with and working with these people from all these countries outside the work. It’s such a wonderful education. But at the same time, you have to make sure that you’re taking care of your employees, because they’ll be the ones and they’re going to go home and sing your praises. If they like the atmosphere on board, then they’ll tell their friends that were a great company to work for. So you want your employees to be your raving brand ambassadors. We call them in the book.

Maria Ross 13:11

Of course, of course you do. They are your biggest brand assets are your employees. I want to dig into that a little bit further. Because this idea of attitude, it sounds good. And I think folks think about it and sort of they know it when they see it. But what specific traits or behaviors are you looking for in the hiring process to show you that this person has the right attitude? Well,

Paul Rutter 13:40

I should say that meese specifically, I’m not involved in the hiring process, because we have 26 ships, we might probably have 50,000 crew members now. And so we have a whole human resources team for shipboard hiring, depending on if you’re going into housekeeping or if you’re an entertainer. We have specific people for hiring for skills like that. And so I wish I could tell you that I’m personally do all the hiring. I don’t that the crew members are my responsibility. Once they walk up the gangway, then it’s up to me to make sure that they feel like they fit in. So for instance, the first day on a cruise ship, for anybody is hectic and stressful. There’s people running all over the place down in the career areas because we’re getting ready for a new cruise. And invariably, every single time a new crew member will say to themselves, this was the biggest mistake I ever made. What am I doing here? This is crazy. And so I make sure as a division head as the cruise director on some of these large ships. I may have 200 people work just in my division. I make sure I bring in a new hire to my office on the either the first or second day and let them know we know how crazy it is. for them to go through, I will always say to the new hire. So have you asked yourself why you’re here, and this was the craziest decision you ever made. And every time they go, Yeah, I can’t believe this, this is crazy. And so we try to let them know that we know what they’re going through, because we’ve been through it as well. And we know how crazy it is. And we know that people get homesick. And so we go out of our way to make sure that people feel welcome. Onboarding is a new term. And it’s such an important aspect of a business to make sure that especially our crew members feel welcome, because we’re flying them there. And we’re making an expense to bring them to our ships all over the world. It’s very important the that they feel comfortable coming on board the ship. I

Maria Ross 15:49

love that because that is so important about empathy for your employees and understanding everything you talked about the benefits, the inclusivity are all of these touches that, you know, leaders are finally understanding that that has a direct impact on the employees performance, which has a direct impact on the customer’s experience. It’s not some fluffy feelgood thing I mean, it is but it also impacts the bottom line. And making that investment in in that connection. And that humanity for each person is so important to ensure that overall, the organization is achieving its goals. So I want to flip to that customer experience. Because, you know, again, your industry very unique, you are living with your customers 24/7. But the we talked a little bit about the bad when things go wrong, or the complaints, but also the good. And so how can organizations that can’t do that, be more in lockstep and attuned with their customers? What are some ways that you’ve worked with your clients to help them not quite mimic that experience, but gather be able to gather the information and the data that’s gleaned from that experience? And maybe a different way?

Paul Rutter 17:06

Alright. Well, I think I understand that question. Let me, let me go one, just back to the one point with the employees first, and that is how important it is to empower your employees to take care of problems right away. Because if I have a problem and go to somebody at the front desk, and then they tell me, oh, sorry, I have to go get permission from my manager or my supervisor, in order to give you you know, the $10 back. And then the manager supervisor comes out in the office explain the problem all over again, like on the phone when you’re trying to call up a business on land. And so empowering your employees to take care of problems right away, helps towards guests and customers knowing that these people care about me that they’re not going to nickel and dime me that yes, if I have a problem, they’re going to take care of it right away, because we’ve learned in the past, if somebody let’s say, has a problem with a shore excursion, and they come to the front desk and say, Well, I didn’t like that shore excursion. 20 years ago, we would hand them a business card and say, Okay, call this number when you get home. And so they’re upset for the rest of the cruise, they’re not having a good time because they haven’t, their problem hasn’t been resolved. And so they go home, and they call the number and then the people in the office call us on the ship. And they say, Okay, what was the story, and the time involved is crazy. If you just take care of the problem and empower your employees to say, no worries, we’re giving you a 50% refund right now. And we’re going to send you a bottle of wine for the inconvenience, then they leave happy, and they can enjoy the rest of their cruise. And they’re going to tell their friends and family when they get home. I had a problem. But this cruise line took care of it right away. So empowering employees. I just wanted to make sure that we got how important that is. Definitely. Before

Maria Ross 18:54

you get to the question I actually asked, I just want to jump on that because that is such an important point. I think there are so many businesses set up to put policies in place that only deal with the random outliers. And yet, there’s really just a cost of doing business. Will people take advantage of liberal customer service policies and refund policies? Maybe, but the majority of them won’t. I mean, we learned this from Nordstrom, we learned this from Amazon. It’s for those exceptions that might milk the system. That’s a drop in the bucket compared to a stellar customer experience where you resolve someone’s problem right away. And the majority of people are not trying to screw the company. The majority of people genuinely have a problem and that is always frustrated me about so many businesses that want to put all these hurdles in place, because of the few people that might take advantage of the system. Meanwhile, they are neglecting all of these potential loyal lifetime customers because They think they’re being savvy about it. And they’re not. So

Paul Rutter 20:02

they’re just wanted to go. They’re not looking at the long term they’re looking. They’re

Maria Ross 20:06

not. And it’s like, you know, what is it worth to be able to save that time and create that better experience? By empowering your employee to solve the problem. This is the thing I love about Amazon customer service is, you know, we are loyal Amazon customers, I know that that’s controversial. But whenever you have a problem with an item, you can just chat with customer service, and it’s no questions asked, they’ll refund, sometimes you don’t even have to ship it back. Right? What you know, you might a CEO might look at that and say, like, look at all the money, we’re letting go out the door, how do we know if that really happened or didn’t happen, we need an investigation, it’s, you know, sort of just chalk it up to a cost of doing business, and reap the rewards of when you solve the nine out of 10 customers whose complaints are legitimate. So now I want to kind of get back to this idea of living with your customers 24/7. Because my point being, you have that advantage in the cruise industry. So when you work with clients and land based businesses, what are some ways you help them recreate that information gathering experience, so that they can get the benefit of hearing from their customers right away and sort of being in the trenches with their customers, without actually creepily going home with them?

Paul Rutter 21:22

Exactly. So, at the end of every cruise, we do surveys, customer feedback is so important. So we get surveys every single week at the end of a cruise. Now, there is so much that you can learn from the surveys. Now a lot of it is just oh, there was a piece of dust in my room. So my cruise was ruined. Okay, you can take that with a grain of salt, right. But if you hear over and over again, let’s say Bob was rude at trivia or at bingo today or an activity. And if you get that once you can write it off. But if you see the same things happening week after week after week, and Bob is rude and keeps getting written up week after week, then we have a problem on our hands that we have to solve, we understand that you can something can happen for one cruise, and somebody takes it the wrong way or, and you can get written up for that. But if you have the same problems, week after week, after week, you need to. And so I would just try to look for trends and tell companies to look for trends that if somebody is getting, you know, as we mentioned a rudeness common every single week, then that is something that you need to look into. The other thing I would mention is, you know, pick up a phone, people are hesitant to pick up a phone. And if you haven’t seen a customer in a while and you want to know why call him up and say hey, you know, we haven’t seen the a year in a couple of months. We’re just making sure everything’s okay. And if there’s anything we can do, please don’t hesitate to contact us. And so picking up a phone, even I’m a big believer in sending thank you notes to people, handwritten, thank you notes are so personal. I have one friend who keeps sending postcards. I mean, when do you get postcards in the mail anymore? Just making sure that customers know that you’re there, and that you’re thinking about them does so much for the customer to then start thinking about your business. Again,

Maria Ross 23:18

I love this. And something that we spoke about pre recording was something I wrote about in the book about executives who sort of outsource the customer feedback. And we know we’ve got Customer Support Teams, we’ve got Customer Success teams, we’ve got account manager, that’s their role to stay in lockstep with the customer. But what about the executive team that can sometimes get into their ivory tower and forget what life is like for the real people on the ground? What suggestions do you have around executives being able to stay in touch with their customers and not lose sight of that beating heart of the company.

Paul Rutter 23:53

I am a very big believer in executives and owners and C suite officers to come on down where the real people work and live and do a job for a day or a week we’ve had people switch jobs we’ve had when a ship is coming out we’ve had captains and all the officers serving dinner to the crew members in the restaurant, I mean and to for them to see how the other half lives, you know talking about empathy, they see exactly what’s going on. And that is so important. First of all, it’s important for the employees to see the executives down where they are instead of in their ivory tower. And so I’m a very big believer in switching jobs or come on down and work the front desk of your hotel or work at the counter of your business and see exactly what your employees are dealing with on a daily basis. Plus, the customers will be very happy to see you there if they know who you are. And so I’m a big believer in switching roles for a day or a week or even an hour

Maria Ross 24:58

or two If you like, yeah, no, I put that in the book of wherever possible, you know, get the CEO on the customer support line for an hour, or, you know, wherever it is possible for them to get into the trenches. I’m a big proponent of airline CEOs, flying anonymously in coach and seeing what that experience is like, which I know they don’t do, I wish they would, or even to understand what it’s like online to purchase from your company or book an experience, to go through that process yourself as an executive every so often, and not be too arrogant about the fact that that’s beneath you. And you know, I shared a story in the book about a CEO who thought it was beneath his executive team to actually spend time talking to customers, and why that’s a recipe for failure because no customers no company, right? So

Paul Rutter 25:54

you’re just to build on that a little bit. I mean, I talked to land based businesses, they’ll park in the back parking lot and use the back door to go up to their offices, the last time they went in the front door where customers actually go in was a years ago. And so they don’t know they don’t see the dirt or the filth or the loose handle or something that’s a safety concern. Because they they go in the back way all the time. And they need to do and walk in the footsteps of their customers. Go online, call your office, call your one 800 Number and see how long it takes to answer. We do that on our ships, we have managers on duty, will specifically call you know, room service, or the front desk to see how long it takes for them to answer. And I highly recommend CEOs to call their 800 Number, or go on their website and see how long they are and see what they need to do to find a phone number to call for customer service. So I highly recommend that CEOs work and walk in the steps of their customers at every chance every chance they get.

Maria Ross 27:00

So in your book, you can’t make the ship up, which I love the title again, you talk about a few business implementation strategies. And I’d love to just get a high level insight on a few of these. One of them is how loose lips literally sink ships. Can you tell us what that one’s about?

Paul Rutter 27:19

Well, there’s a couple of things. There’s no privacy on a cruise ship, you learn that fairly quickly that everybody knows everybody’s business. And gossip can be very bad onboard a ship. Because I think there’s a saying, if they don’t have anything too bad to say about you, they’ll make something up. And so we have to be very careful. And even on land, I try to get the point across that gossip is just such a cancer. And it grows and it brings people down. And so when I say when we say loose lips sink ships, it’s that you just have to be careful what you’re saying, you know, you may hear a rumor, and then you spread it. But you know, gossip is such an especially on a ship because it’s such close quarters. I mean, we have, for instance, to give you an example, there’s a crew bar on board, every ship has a crew bar where crew members can go with at the end of the day and just have a nice drink and relax and listen to some music. Well, Lord have mercy. If a guy and a girl leave the crew bar at the same time. The rumors start to spread, right Oh, you see who left here and and all of a sudden, you know, they’re married together. But that’s not the way it works. And you just real careful about some of the things you say, because gossip is such a cancer in any business and, and there’s really no privacy on board a ship. So I would just recommend to try and nip it in the bud when there’s gossip going around that, you know isn’t true,

Maria Ross 28:51

right? I mean, that is definitely a culture killer for sure. And it’s anything but apathetic. We’re not really thinking about the impact that our words can have on our colleagues and our workmates. But also that that just detracts us from the work as well. It’s all well and good to have fun and, and joke and inject joy I I’m a huge proponent of that to create to create a good culture that then in turn offers great customer service. But yeah, I think we need to we all need to keep each other in check about the gossip issue. You have another one here throwing off the bow lines to take some risks. Talk to us about that. Well,

Paul Rutter 29:26

I just think first of all, working on a cruise ship is a risk because it’s not like it’s on anybody’s radar, they already going to college for all I’m going to college so I can work on a ship. So you do have to take risks in life and business owners need to take risks. If you’re doing the same thing that everybody else is doing. You’re not going to stand out in the crowd. And you need to stand out and even if it’s, you know, some people do it with, you know, crazy colors or a different logo or something like that. You have to take some risks. I mean, you know you mentioned Amazon look at the risk he took by creating Amazon On and things like that. So if you see that there’s a problem that isn’t being fixed, taking a risk to fix that problem is how you create businesses.

Maria Ross 30:10

Well, and I think related to empathy, what we, what the data show is that companies with empathetic leaders and empathetic cultures create more innovation. And it’s because people know, they, they know that they’re seen, heard and valued. So they’re more comfortable throwing out crazy ideas, or, you know, failing in in the pursuit of trying to try something different, you get people that are more willing to step outside their comfort zone, because they know there might not be retaliation, there might not be, you know, people not accepting them. And so that that idea of the empathetic Culture and Innovation do go hand in hand across multiple studies. One study showed that exponentially people in empathetic cultures felt they could be more innovative at work, I think it was four times as many verses in companies where they don’t have an empathetic culture. So that idea of being a disrupter, that idea of risk taking in business to create growth in the company in the business is so closely aligned to how employees feel about giving their perspectives and offering up their ideas, and also about how they know they can innovate, and create and they’re not worried about all the other stuff that happens when you’re in an environment where you’re, it’s fear based, you don’t feel psychologically safe. You don’t feel like you can bring your ideas to the forefront. You’re so worried about that stuff that think about all the innovation you’re losing as a company, because people are too afraid to speak up.

Paul Rutter 31:44

Exactly. Well, if I can give you an example of something that happened on a ship where empathy was involved, weddings, very big business on board a cruise ship, people are now planning their weddings. And there’s two types of weddings on board. There’s what’s called a shipboard wedding where you can let’s say this cruise starts in Miami, people calm, you have friends and family, they’ll come on board the ship, and you get married on board that day, and then your guests leave and then the ship sails and you go on your on your honeymoon together. So that’s a shipboard wedding. And things usually go well and we know how important weddings are. But the other type of wedding is called the destination wedding. And that’s where the couple says, well, we want to get married on the beach in Jamaica, or we want to get married on the beach in Grand Cayman in the Caribbean. And so they make the plans and they do the paperwork and omit they might do it through a travel agency. But everything is set. And so they’re gonna get married, and sometimes they have family, their parents are sailing with them. We had one wedding, we had 200 guests on board were there just for the wedding. There’s only one problem though, when people booked destination weddings. We’ve had a couple when they’ve booked them during hurricane season. So of course what happened, right, for 99% of the summer time, there’s never a hurricane. But of course, that one time when it’s your wedding, there’s a hurricane coming right towards Jamaica or right towards Grand Cayman. And it’s supposed to hit a day or two before or after the day that you’re supposed to get married. While on a cruise ship. We’re not going there. We’re afraid of hurricanes, there’s no reason to go because the islands are going to be in a bad state. So if there’s a hurricane in the Western Caribbean, a ship will usually go to the Eastern Caribbean because it’s not affected. And people want to go where there’s good weather. Yes, they’re upset that they’re not going to the ports they planned on. But they don’t want to go during a hurricane where the weather is terrible. They want to go where there’s nice weather. But the problem with the people who booked that wedding on that day, they’re not having their wedding day and we have some very upset guests. Now we as a cruiseline could say listen, not our problem. You know, we didn’t book this wedding during hurricane season you did. There’s a hurricane sorry, nothing we can do. Or you can take an empathetic approach and put yourselves in the shoes of these people who were so disappointed and all the family and friends who are with them. The paperwork for the wedding, let’s say they planted on Jamaica or Grand Cayman, the paperwork is only good for that island because the government’s are all different. So if you have a wedding license in Jamaica, you can’t use it if we go to one Eastern Caribbean country, because it’s different paperwork. So we could say sorry, nothing we could do. Or we can put ourselves in their shoes and at least make them feel as valued as possible. So we send them to a romantic dinner and one of our specialty restaurants. We book couples massages for them so that they can get a massage. One couple who had their wedding canceled? They had they this is the couple that had 200 people on board, they said what was really important to us was to have our first dance together. And so we arranged it on the last night of the cruise. In the middle of the shift, there’s always a big central area. The bride got dressed in her gown that to the gentleman was in his tuxedo, we announced to the ship that they were going to have their first dance, it was packed, it was crowded, and the band learned their song there one song because it was going to be played on the beach or recording, we had our band learn that song. And so we were able to let them have their first dance. The crowd went crazy. There was not a dry eye in the house, everybody, they understood that they miss their wedding and that they had planned for and they paid lots of money for this wedding as well. This is you know, It’s so upsetting to us that we couldn’t deliver the product that they were looking forward to. But we were empathetic, and this couple. And both couples that this happened to, at different times were so happy with what we provided for them, they’re taking their anniversary cruise with us, they’re going to bring their families the next time they cruise because they felt that they were valued, even though they never got to get married, that they were happy with the way that we responded to their situation. And that’s where the empathy has now gotten us lifelong customers, who are then going to bring their families and their kids in their grandkids. And you know, how much money has now been brought in in the future, because we were empathetic, and it didn’t cost us very much money to send them to a specialty restaurant or get a massage together. They were very happy about that. Right? And

Maria Ross 36:48

that’s about a mindset of being able to look for those opportunities and have people on board who who understood how can we make this better? What and also what I love about that is getting to the heart of what was most important to that couple, which was the first dance. How many times do we sort of try to apply a cookie cutter solution to customers that are unhappy or customers that are having a less than excellent experience? Where if we just take the time to get to know them and talk with them and understand what is really underneath the frustration or the anger or the sadness or the whatever about the experience? What is the most important aspect to you and how can we fulfill that need for you? So that is such a great story to land on. Paul, we’re going to have all your links in the show notes for folks, but for anyone on the go, can you let us know where’s the best place to get in touch with you?

Paul Rutter 37:42

Oh, absolutely. Thank you for inquiring. I appreciate that. My website is Paul Rutter. speaks.com. My last name is ru t t e r. So Paul Rutter speaks.com books are available there. I’m very big on LinkedIn. If people want to reach out on LinkedIn, I have a Facebook public page. Paul Rutter speaks Instagram, YouTube. So all of those all of those

Maria Ross 38:08

website is great. Yeah, we’ll have all those links in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time today and your insights. We really appreciate it. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please share it with a colleague or a friend and don’t forget to rate and review and subscribe and follow so you always get the latest episodes. Until next time, remember that cash flow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Kat Kennan: How Trauma-Informed Marketing Offers a Radical Customer Experience

Marketing often relies on a lot of “tricks” to reach people in this noisy world. But we have an opportunity to be more intentional and responsible in our marketing – and when we do, that leads to increased customer engagement, loyalty, and yes, profit.

Today, I talk with Kat Kennan about trauma-informed marketing and how we can rethink the way we promote our offerings. We talk about what trauma-informed marketing means, why brands need to pay attention, how to avoid cancel culture, and how to rethink old marketing models and get away from fear-based messaging. We discuss how trauma can show up for your customers, where you can take a pause and adapt, and some great tips on easy ways to start infusing more empathy into your marketing to boost your customer’s perception of your brand.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Fear-based marketing techniques are going to continue to get diminishing returns. As businesses, we need to move beyond personas and really connect with our customers.
Over 70% of people have experienced at least one major traumatic event in their lives. In thinking about the pandemic, we are now looking at 100%.
Empathy is a bottom-line issue. 97% of customers say that empathy is important to their customer loyalty.
You need to have a pretty nimble and agile group of decision-makers that can adapt and adjust campaigns on the fly based on real-time events.

“It’s encouraging marketers to just take a pause before they send something out to think about how it might feel or how it might read.” — Kat Kennan

Episode References:

The Cancel Culture Checklist: Go to Kat’s website radicalcustomerexperience.com & use code MARIA30 to enjoy 30% off the 1st 3 months. Check the website for all details.
The Empathy Edge episodes:
Charna Cassel: Recognizing Trauma at Work – Yours and Others
Melina Palmer: Why Your Customers Can’t Tell You What They Want
Brigette Iarusso Disrupting Toxic Business Models in the Online Space
Lindsay LaShell: A Marketing Activist Blends Purpose & Profit
Uncommon Goods
Oreo’s responsive Super Bowl campaign

Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!

About Kat Kennan:

Kat Kennan is the Founder and CEO of Radical Customer Experience, a groundbreaking consulting firm that encourages brands to establish genuine connections with their customers by embracing strengths-based, trauma-informed, and inclusive marketing services. With a passion for empowering individuals and driving positive change, her mission is to help brands speak up, speak out, and foster diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in their customer interactions. As a certified trauma-informed professional, Kat brings a crucial perspective to her work, infusing every aspect of her business ventures with a deep understanding of the human experience.

Kat’s unwavering commitment to creating a more inclusive and empathic world have earned her recognition and respect within the marketing and trauma-informed community. She is leading the charge in revolutionizing the way businesses interact with their customers, leaving a profound impact on the industry and society as a whole.

Connect with Kat:

Radical Customer Experience: radicalcustomerexperience.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/katkennan

Facebook: facebook.com/rcxconsulting

Instagram: instagram.com/katkennan

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Marketing often relies on a lot of tricks to reach people in this noisy world. But we have an opportunity to be more intentional and responsible in our marketing. And when we do that leads to increased customer engagement, loyalty, and yes, profit. Today, I talked with Kat cannon, about trauma informed marketing, and how we can rethink the way we promote our offerings. Kat is the founder and CEO of radical customer experience, a groundbreaking consulting firm that encourages brands to establish genuine connections with their customers by embracing strengths based trauma informed and inclusive marketing services. With a passion for empowering individuals and driving positive change. Her mission is to help brands speak up, speak out, and foster diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging in their customer interactions. As a certified trauma informed professional Kats journey to success is rooted in years of marketing leadership for companies and organizations of all shapes, sizes and industry sectors. Moreover, her personal experiences with complex PTSD have made her a passionate advocate for all trauma survivors, leading her to establish the advocacy organization stand up to trauma. Through this organization, she enables others to heal and thrive beyond their traumatic experiences. Cat’s unwavering commitment to creating a more inclusive and empathic world have earned her recognition and respect with the marketing and trauma informed community. She is leading the charge and revolutionising the way businesses interact with their customers leaving a profound impact on the industry and society as a whole. Today, we talk about what trauma informed marketing means, why brands need to pay attention, how to avoid canceled culture, and how to rethink old marketing models. And get away from fear based messaging. We discuss how trauma can show up for your customers, where you can take a pause and adapt. And she offers great tips on easy ways to start infusing more empathy into your marketing to boost your customer’s perception of the brand. And she has a special offer for all you listeners. So stay tuned. Welcome Kat cannon to the empathy edge podcast, I am really looking forward to having this conversation with you about marrying two of my favorite things, which is empathy and marketing together to help businesses succeed. Because as you know, this podcast is all about leveraging the power of empathy not only to improve our lives, but to improve our businesses and our brands as well. So welcome to the show.

Kat Kennan 03:22

Oh, thank you so much. I’m thrilled to be here.

Maria Ross 03:25

So let’s talk a little bit about your work. You know, as I read in the bio, you talk about radical customer experience your business, as a consulting firm that encourages brands to establish genuine connections with their customers by embracing strengths based trauma informed and inclusive marketing services. Can you explain what that is for people or what those things are for the leaders listening to that podcast right now?

Kat Kennan 03:51

Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, let me take it a step back and just talk about our mission for a second. So we really are looking to empower companies to embrace empathy, in their marketing practices, really redo things from the way that they’ve been done forever. So I do talk about strengths based marketing, which is probably an easier entry point than trauma informed, but, you know, as marketers, we were all taught fear based techniques, right? And we have to create urgency, it’s a limited time, it’s limited quantity. You know, I’m sure any of the listeners can go to their inbox right now and find a dozen emails that say Oh, until midnight, but, you know, that’s sort of the opposite of empathy and particularly now, you know, after the pandemic, like we are in a mental health crisis, and you know, kids are on social younger and younger as well. And the peer pressure and all of that like negative, you know, focus is really dangerous and the you know, obvious believe there is a business result in all this too, which is sales. So like, don’t stay with me. But I think brands have a responsibility just like they do, you know, with sustainability or overall diversity inclusion initiatives. Like to me it fits under that larger umbrella. But yeah, definitely encouraging companies and my clients to embrace empathy.

Maria Ross 05:27

And I love that because we’ve had a variety of past episodes, I’m going to be putting in the show notes of this episode that have dealt with various aspects of this. And one of the reasons why some of those techniques are used is because scientifically, they have been shown to work and behavioral economics and I had expert Melina Palmer on the podcast twice, actually, but one time talking about what your customers want, but can’t tell you. And she made it very clear. It’s not about manipulation, it’s just about understanding the way people make decisions, and leveraging that in a positive way in a responsible way. So that you can provide a product or service for the people who need it. And so I think that’s where a lot of that comes from is there’s the sort of tips or ways to promote, or ways to phrase things or ways to price that our thinking brain says will never work on us. But our subconscious brain it does. And I think we just need to be more savvy as both marketers and consumers about what a powerful tool that is to wield, and why we need to wield it responsibly. So that’s why I really love the work you’re doing and showing brands that again, what I love the both and thinking, you can be responsible, and be trauma informed and be inclusive, and you can still make a profit, like everybody wins in this scenario.

Kat Kennan 06:49

Absolutely. And you know, those fear based techniques, you know, particularly aware our society is and where we’re going, you know, we’re gonna get diminishing returns. And so it’s time to, you know, rethink things I’m sure to if you went to LinkedIn now and any of those, like marketing articles, right, you’d see those same tips and tricks that we’ve been following for years. And it’s like, no, come on, we need to get beyond personas and really connect with our customers. Right.

Maria Ross 07:20

So tell us a little bit about this is usually the first question I asked. I asked, but I wanted to dive right into the What is this that we’re talking about today, but let’s take a step back and talk about your story. And how your personal journey and experiences have influenced this approach to marketing, and why this approach of being trauma informed as a marketer? First of all, I know you’re going to define what that means for us. Yeah. But also, what’s the personal part of your story that informs this work? Yeah,

Kat Kennan 07:49

absolutely. So I talked about it all the time. But I have complex PTSD, which, you know, a lot of us are familiar with PTSD, as you know, with vets, or, you know, perhaps like medical crises, ad complex, it just means there have been multiple things. But in, let’s see, 2018 19 and 20, I had three back to back, pretty, like terrible things happen. And then with my mom passing away, and expectedly. And I realized during that time that I was perceiving marketing messages differently. So you know, you can, I guess you can’t take the marketer out of me no matter what. So my analytical brain was on. But I think that’s where I started understanding, you know, both Annika healing journey and doing a lot of research and reading that there is this concept of being trauma informed. And, you know, it’s really come from the medical or therapy community, in terms of like, how you talk to survivors or patients. And then during the pandemic, I actually went and got a certification and being a trauma informed professional, to really learn, both for me and my own journey, but just, you know, also in general of what’s happening in the body. And you know, what current reach research is saying, and I was able to marry all these things together. You know, I always say that I will forever be healing and never healed, which is awesome. It’s all right. My PTSD is my superpower, and allows me to see the world in a very unique way. But yeah, we can marry all of these things together, and really create customer experiences that are indeed

Maria Ross 09:40

radical. And what do we mean by trauma informed marketing? Yeah, absolutely.

Kat Kennan 09:44

So let me give a couple of tangible examples. For everyone who’s listening. We can think about it from a campaign or creative perspective. You know, sometimes we’re not all sitting around in a boardroom trying to figure out how to ruin someone’s day, you know, as goodness, at least I hope not. But, you know, sometimes there’s images or words that can be really triggering. You know, we’ve seen non trauma informed campaigns such as like, you know, Walmart releasing Juneteenth ice cream, or, you know, yeah, it

Maria Ross 10:22

is. I mean, I

Kat Kennan 10:23

feel Yeah. Like, no. But, you know, I’ve seen really great examples, the first marketing campaign I saw around this hit me as a consumer. So there’s a brand called uncommon goods, which I’ve been such a fan of, for so long. And my very first mother say, without my mom, obviously, you know, particularly in any holiday, right, there’s always so many messages coming at you. And before Mother’s Day, it’s every email, it’s every social post, it’s every commercial, right? And so, you know, I just lost my mom. And I was like, Man, this is so hard. And then I got a text from uncommongoods and said, Hey, we know this time a year is tough for many of you click here to opt out of our Mother’s Day messaging. Oh, wow. Yeah. And, you know, as a, as a consumer, as a customer, a longtime customer of the brand, I was like, they really see me, right. And the loyalty that that created and went well, beyond the years of like me giving them business, it’s like, this deep spot, right, that hits. And, you know, as a marketer, I’m like, Wow, they’re so smart. They’re just segmenting. Right? And like, that’s not a hard thing to do. That’s a really easy campaign to put out. And, you know, so there’s no reason that brands can’t do that, like all along the year, you know, holidays are really important for companies in terms of profits. Right, but can we handle it with more sensitivity? Yes. And, you know, there are other areas of marketing, let’s, let’s take probably the least sexy area of data hygiene, right? No one wants to talk about it. But if you’re not cleaning your database regularly, then what if you are sending an email or even a direct mail piece? Or even it could just be business mail, right? Where maybe you’re sending it to a partner that’s passed away? Or there’s been a divorce? Or, or right. And, you know, then with that one envelope, you really have ruined someone’s day. And, you know, I mean, I also know this personally, you know, my, my neighbor’s husband passed away last year, it was like, you know, one of the nicest people, and, you know, every single day, there is mail for him. And, you know, how triggering must that be? So, you know, it really applies to all sites of marketing, I would say, more than anything else, it’s encouraging marketers to just take a pause, before they send something out, to think about how it might fit. I

Maria Ross 13:16

love that, what are some of the examples of the ways you’ve worked with clients, to, you know, what are some before and afters you might be able to cite for us to give people more, more examples of things that could spark their thinking of how they can look at their own marketing, and maybe reassess what they’ve been doing?

Kat Kennan 13:34

Yeah, so I mean, I’ve done some training, like within marketing departments, almost on the employee side, because I think it’s really helpful for marketers or anyone else, really executive wise in the workplace to really understand how pervasive trauma is, and what trauma reaction was, can look like. So, I mean, statistically speaking, it’s north of 70% of people have experienced at least one major traumatic event in their lives. And if we think about the pandemic, I mean, we are really looking at 100%. And, you know, it’s not just things like you’ve lost a friend or family member, or perhaps there was something in your childhood, it could be moving homes, or changing jobs, like these can still be extremely triggering. And so I like to lead, you know, departments through that exercise of what that can look like. And, you know, I’ve also I’m sure we’ve all been in those meetings where maybe someone just has a meltdown. And you’re like, Wait, what just happened? I’m so confused. Yeah. You know, and the reality is that, you know, that person probably had a trauma reaction. And no, it had nothing to do with what was happening in the room. Right. And it probably wasn’t even as simple as hey, they had a fight with their partner that morning. Hang, or you know, something’s gone out there kids, it’s always hits much deeper, I always find myself kind of pointing here. Because, you know, that’s where trauma really lives. It’s underneath everything. And even if you see someone that’s angry, for example, that’s a secondary emotion, there’s always something underneath. So I find that, you know, by leading my clients sort of through that internal exercise, it’s much easier for them to then look at the external side, right, of how messages might be received. And so I try to start with early things like are easy things, you know, holidays are absolutely any, you know, easy thing. We’ve already talked about how, say even in q4, right, the holiday season, like we are looking at way north of 25% of profits. So how can we handle it since actively, when, you know, the holiday is aren’t an easy time for a good majority of consumers? Right? And, you know, so what kind of messages can we put out? Like, maybe like, things with a lot of happy families? Maybe we should rethink it? Maybe not? Maybe it is appropriate. But just to take that pause? And, you know, and you know, then we see, we see sales increase? We’ve done some, we’ve done some really fascinating research with it isn’t even fully public yet. But at least at this time, but we’re seeing that 83% I just feel like I need to say it again, 83% of consumers feel that brands do little to nothing to handle complaints or difficult situations that they are having, in terms of customer experience, customer service, 83%.

Maria Ross 16:48

I mean, that’s nuts, I’m just going to slap you with another hit you with another statistic is that a 97% of customers say that empathy is important to their customer loyalty for a brand that if they have an empathetic experience, or if they don’t, yeah, 97% say that is very important to them in terms of will they buy from this brand, or won’t they? So, you know, this is a bottom line issue. This is not just sort of a like, oh, we just need to be touchy feely like, this is impacting, you know, things that the CFOs care about. And I’m gonna, you know, as I mentioned, when I was thinking through our talk today, there’s so many past episodes that I want to link folks to one is to Charna caselle, where we did an episode about recognizing trauma in the workplace. And also, Bridgette, I Rousseau, who spoke about disrupting toxic marketing models and business models, especially in the online space. And how many of those are rooted in patriarchy, oppression. So many of those methods are rooted in forcing people to do something that they might not choose to do. And so and then finally, Lindsay law shell, who spoke about being a marketing activist and leveraging marketing, to do good in the world, rather than cause more harm. And I’m hearing echoes of all these themes as you talk. And the biggest word that’s popping up for me as you talk is intention is to stop running, and stop, you know, stop and pause, think about, is this something we should do? Or are we doing it because we’ve always done it? Or everyone is doing it? Or it’s the next shiny new thing? And, you know, I think what is probably the question coming to most listeners minds is, well, can you just drive yourself? Nuts in circles? Because you have to consider every possible reaction? At what point do you start suffering from analysis paralysis? And you don’t put a campaign out there? Do you have any perspective or guidance on that? Because I think and myself as a marketer, that’s kind of my number one question is, at what point are we spent? Do we spend too much time on intention? And then we just have to go?

Kat Kennan 19:05

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is definitely an early pushback that I got a lot. And it sort of really forced me to think about it, right. And what I realized is that intention piece is key because it is just about taking a pause. It doesn’t mean that, you know, as a brand marketer, you need to sit there and think about every single person’s experience. Me now maybe it’s been a health issue, or maybe you know, whatever it is, but by taking that pause, I think you’re getting over halfway there. Just just to take a moment and think about how it might read. And, you know, a think for a lot of brands to they’re terrified of being canceled. Right? You know, it’s such a big topic right now. Now the last number I saw was like over 40%, probably higher now of executives are absolutely terrified of being cancelled, which, you know, leads them to not say anything, right. But, you know, speaking of the statistic you just cited Maria, consumers also expect brands to speak up, and to stand for things to write. Yeah,

Maria Ross 20:27

I’ve said that for a long time that it be cannot brands cannot be Switzerland anymore, they have to put out there, what their values are and what they believe. And it becomes a lot easier to avoid the landmines, so to speak, if you are very clear on your mission and your values, because and I’ve spoken to C level executives for my new book that’s coming out in the fall, the empathy dilemma, that that helps you narrow the options. If you can think about what is true for our mission and our values, then you can decide which things to take a stand on, you don’t have to comment on everything. But you can take a very clear stand on things that are immediately relevant to your mission and your values. And it’s sort of a sort of a litmus test of, okay, there’s lots of things going on in the world that we could comment on. But what, what is true for us as a company as a brand, where are we going to, you know, claim our stake, and be very clear with not only the type of customer that will want to work with us, but also the types of employees that want to work with us. Because we always have to remember that both internal and external culture and brand are two sides of the same coin. And so it’s about taking that stand and, and where do you stand on something? And but again, you don’t have to comment on everything. But where it matters, and where people, your customers and your employees are expecting you to speak up?

Kat Kennan 21:58

What will you say? Absolutely, absolutely. And I

Maria Ross 22:03

want to talk real quickly about your, your vision for, you know, if you if you had a perfect world of this vision for the future of trauma informed marketing strategies within the marketing industry, what would that look like? Yeah,

Kat Kennan 22:16

I mean, I think about our overall vision is, you know, we are trying to drive, you know, compassion and understanding who went positive change, like, I’ve talked about how, you know, our mental health crisis is getting worse and worse. And, you know, for me, I want to make such an impact, it’s so important to me, and it’s been a part of my journey, for sure, to positively impact lives. And because I’m a marketer, right? I think about how can I do this via companies, right. And if I can get, you know, of course, I want it to be hundreds and 1000s of companies. But you know, even if it’s a, you know, a few dozen companies that think differently about marketing, you know, that’s 10s of 1000s of consumers that are going to have a different experience. And that’s everything.

Maria Ross 23:12

Mm hmm. I love that. So let’s give some folks some tangible ways to embrace this approach we talked about a few of them already is thinking about thinking about timing, thinking about, for example, the holidays, and what might some of your customers be thinking and feeling. And what I heard wrapped into that was also just this extra step of consent. So this very easy step of we’re going to be sending you a boatload of communications about Mother’s Day, or about the holidays. Because the truth is, they’re going to opt out anyway, without telling you, if it hits a nerve. So you might as well ask permission, and still have them in your community, and let’s say on your email list, or you know, in the family, but this way, you’re offering them the opportunity to give consent of yeah, I’d rather not hear about you from you right now, if these are the messages you’re going to be sending, because I’m having a really hard time. So for me, I hear this idea of consent and timing. What are some other ways that they can take some approaches to marketing in this fashion? Yeah,

Kat Kennan 24:18

I also think we, you know, can’t forget sort of real time events, right? We’re always trying to get ahead of things and scheduled things and, you know, be more proactive instead of reactive, right. But, you know, what, if we had a sale that was about to start, I thought about this recently, when we had the wildfires in Hawaii, like, what if you’re like, this sale is fire, right? And yeah, no, it would have been it would have been so clever and you know, probably worth a chuckle. And then what had it come out that same day, it wouldn’t have been right In wouldn’t lunch? Yeah, it would have been very insensitive. And you know, honestly, that example probably came true for many brands right would not

Maria Ross 25:09

doubt it. And I think that’s the challenge with automating so much, which I’m not anti automation, but someone has to be the keeper of knowing what’s going out when and being able to make a call that something might need to be pulled, or rescheduled, based on something that’s going on, and not to make that like this laborious decision that requires 12 Different people to sign off on it, you need to have a pretty nimble and agile group of decision makers that can adapt and adjust campaigns on the fly based on real time events.

Kat Kennan 25:44

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we’ve seen examples of this for years in terms of like, real time marketing that happens, you know, I don’t know what what pops in my head, like that Oreo example, if I was just gonna say that from the Superbowl. Right. Yeah. Right. And it’s like that, that exact same process, and very probably likely very narrow group of decision makers, were able to come up with that on the fly and send it out. So in that exact same structure that allows you to take that pause or like, you know, turn something off, reschedule it, when needed. And you know, it’s absolutely the structure that you need for the department.

Maria Ross 26:28

It’s like that process in reverse. And so I think it’s, I think it’s a worthwhile thing to try within your marketing planning meetings, whether you have them weekly or monthly, as sort of like what’s going on in the world right now that might impact campaigns we have going on? I don’t, I feel like so many marketing departments, and I’ve been in them, where once you get the campaign out the door, you’re thinking about the next. But no one’s thinking about like, okay, let’s, let’s pause, what’s actually going live this week, and what’s happening in our world where we may want to rethink what’s going on, give us one more way that they can embrace this approach. What’s another tip? Yeah,

Kat Kennan 27:09

so I think about it, you know, all the way to like the roots of your company DNA. So what my company is won based around is my three R’s method, which is not rocket science at all. But obviously, we we should know by now that I love the word radical. So it’s radical vulnerability, radical empathy, and radical authentic investment. And a think if your marketing department, and obviously that ties into your overall leadership and DNA of the company, is able to embrace these three tenets, right, that not only will you be implementing more trauma informed, strength based practices, but it is like, affecting your bottom line in a very positive way.

Maria Ross 28:03

Walk us through them real quickly, before we wrap. Yeah, what are the three?

Kat Kennan 28:08

Yeah, so on the empathy side, you know, we we really want to make your customers feel seen, right? So it’s just like, again, that really is that pause that we’ve been talking about in terms of vulnerability, that means that as a brand, you’re willing to recognize when you have had a misstep, you’ve made a mistake? Maybe you were that brand that accidentally sent out like the sales buyer. Right? And, and, you know, that’s okay, we all right, but just own it. And really, and I use this word very carefully, authentically, apologize, right. And, you know, in terms of like, you know, authentic investment, you know, there are a lot of brands, and this gets so tight into the marketing department to in terms of cause marketing, or we’re doing a campaign where a percentage of profits or whatever it is, right. But so many of those don’t get tied into the DNA of the brand. It’s, you know, it’s October, so we’re raising money for breast cancer, or or, you know, whatever, you know, month of the year, or it is right. And a think really thinking about where is your community, whether that’s consumers, whether that’s your employees, is really like authentically investing in your neighborhood, essentially, right? Where your headquarters like, you know, who are people in your community? Are you training the next generation of workers doing that versus like, you know, setting up a park bench or cleaning like, you know, cleaning a few blocks, you know, on a on a volunteer day. So I think so much of the This gets tied into marketing, even if it doesn’t seem like marketing at first glance, because let’s be honest, marketing is everything. And everything is marketing.

Maria Ross 30:10

So on that, before we wrap, I do want to share that you have a special offer for listeners. It’s called the canceled culture checkup. Tell us about that. And what do people listening need to do to get a hold of that?

Kat Kennan 30:22

Little special? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we have this software product. Now. It’s a tiered subscription, like many SaaS products. But it really measures brand sensitivity. So the end result is a brand sensitivity score. Yeah, so it really is measuring brand sensitivity against these three tenets that we were just speaking about. And just in terms of overall Kancil culture, right, we talked earlier about, you know, businesses, and executives are terrified of getting caught, you know, and whatever it is me, you know, maybe they made a campaign decision, and then they reverse the decision, and probably getting more hot water. But this really, you know, by serving their customers, this is like all based on psychology, and I could really, really dive into it, if I have the chance. But it really shows you by looking at these tenants, like, how can you overcome that? How can you be proactive? What do you need to be looking for? Maybe there’s a company that’s doing like, really well above average on vulnerability, they will admit mistakes, but maybe they could do better on authentic investment. And people, you know, their customers are like, Yeah, you know, maybe you can invest in a different way in terms of supporting a nonprofit or what have you.

Maria Ross 31:52

So again, where can folks find this?

Kat Kennan 31:56

Yes, so head on over to my website, radical customer, experience.com. And you will see all of the tiered options there. There’s a quick little video that walks you through the platform. And for listeners, I do have a discount code that gives 30% off for the first three months, and it’s Maria 30. Yay,

Maria Ross 32:20

Maria 30 is your discount code for that. So go to radical customer experience.com. And check that out. Cat, it was a pleasure to talk to you. I’m always excited about new ways to be more responsible as marketers, and still have a profound impact on profitability and success. So thank you for coming on the show today. We’ll have all your links in the show notes, including the link to the website so folks can take advantage of the canceled culture checkup discount offer that you have. But for folks on the go right now, where’s the best place they can reach you contact you find out more about your work? Yeah,

Kat Kennan 32:53

absolutely. Since you all have a website already, head on over to LinkedIn. And I’m Cat Kevin, and most of my stuff is is all there. Awesome. Awesome.

Maria Ross 33:05

Thank you cat again for sharing your insights. today. I’m sure you have given marketers and marketing leaders listening some food for thought. So thank you. Thrilled to be here. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a colleague or a friend. And remember until next time that cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Charles Gellman: Take Your Meds! AI-Assisted Robotics Improves Home Health Care

My guest today, Charles Gellman, is the CEO & Co-founder of HiDO Health and he has leveraged empathy from his own health experiences into AI-assisted robotics that will alter the future of medicine and healthcare. Charles is an outgoing data scientist with a Masters in Clinical Informatics, an accomplished speaker, and one of the top voices on AI-assisted robotics, digital health, and the impact on care.

Today, he shares his personal story and shocking statistics on the big and costly problem of inaccurate home health care. We discuss how AI-assisted robotics can impact emotional well-being and why empathy is not going away because of all this new technology. We even take a detour and talk about how to ensure that leaders who succeed passionate founders possess the same empathy for customers and commitment to purpose. Finally, we discuss the importance of empathy to understand both providers and patients and help them alter behaviors to improve health outcomes.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

When selecting a successor as a leader, you want to make sure they are aligned with the vision and mission, not just capable of running the business side of things.
Providers struggle to get care to everyone. Patients struggle to communicate their needs. AI can help to bridge that gap and allow for better communication.
Around $300B is wasted each year on medications not being taken as prescribed. HiDO is using AI to help reduce that and make life easier for patients, caregivers, and physicians.

“One out of four patients in the US have chronic care diseases. More than 10% of the population have some type of caregiver responsibilities. We have a health care system, where we are solely dependent on people at home to care for themselves. How is that working out for us?”

— Charles Gellman

Episode References:

AARP, Caregiving in the United States 2020
PubMed, National trends in prescription drug expenditures and projections for 2023
The Empathy Edge podcast, Ron Gura: How Technology Helps People Navigate Grief and Loss

Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!

About Charles Gellman, CEO, HiDO Health:

Charles Gellman, MSHI is the CEO & Co-founder of HiDO Health, where AI-assisted robotics will alter the future of medicine and healthcare. An outgoing data scientist with a Masters in Clinical Informatics, he is also an accomplished speaker with 100+ podcast interviews scheduled for 2023 from notable university professors, leading researchers, and forward-thinking podcast hosts. NIH-funded research in collaboration with Stanford and Rush Universities. He is one of the top voices on AI-assisted robotics, digital health, and its impact on care.

Charles was recently featured in a full feature documentary, “AI Robotics… The HiDO Story.” He publishes his analyses regularly in the newsletter, “The Future of Care.”

He is a former advisor for StartXMed and has worked in various executive roles at Startups as well as Fortune 500 companies. He received an MSHI degree from University of California at Davis, Medical School.

Connect with Charles Gellman:

HiDO Health: https://www.hidohealth.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mshicgellman/

HiDO Summary Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljnFImTNpwg

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Taking our medication properly at home is a huge problem that has serious consequences on our health and lives. Many patients do not get all the benefits they should from prescribed medications when they’re not taken properly. Often, we’re relying on ourselves or ad hoc caregivers to ensure we’re following the right care instructions at home. Did you know that the number of caregivers increased and reached about 53,000,020 20 or more than one in five Americans and according to a PubMed article in 2022, overall pharmaceutical expenditures in the US grew 9.4% compared to the year prior, for a total of get this 633 point 5 billion with a B net net or taking a lot of drugs people and often not correctly to get the maximum benefits from what we spend on them. That leads to more than just wasting money, it can lead to death. My guest today Charles Gelman is the CEO and co founder of Heito health, and he’s leveraged empathy from his own health experiences into AI assisted robotics that will alter the future of medicine and health care. Charles is an outgoing data scientist with a master’s in clinical informatics and accomplished speaker and one of the top voices in AI assisted robotics, digital health and the impact on care. Heito is a patient friendly device paired with a mobile app that helps automate home care by assisting patients with medication compliance. It automates the medication experience and removes much of the burden on from patients on remembering the right medication, the right frequency, the right dosage, and validates that the right person took it through a remote video record. Today he shares his personal story and shocking statistics on the big and costly problem of inaccurate home health care. We discuss how AI assisted robotics can impact emotional well being and why empathy is not going away. Because of all this new technology. We even took a detour and talk about how to ensure that leaders who succeed passionate founders possess the same empathy for customers and commitment to purpose. Finally, we discussed the importance of empathy to understand both providers and patients and help them alter behaviors to improve health outcomes. This was a great one, take a listen. Welcome Charles Gellman to the empathy edge podcast. I personally am very excited to have this conversation with you about your very empathetic technology at high dough and how it helps save lives as someone who has gone through some major medical issues and been on multiple different types of medications in the past, had aging parents, all the things. So welcome to the show. And thanks for being here to talk about Hi, Joe. Rhea, thank

Charles Gellman 03:40

you so much for having me. I’m very excited. We got some very exciting things for audience so they can play behind the scenes, you’ve got some way. So be on your toes.

Maria Ross 03:50

I will I will. First tell us a little bit about your story and why you started this company.

Charles Gellman 03:56

Yeah, so my story really aimed from a personal experience that many folks have when they have interactions within healthcare. I was in my early 20s A bit naive, you know, still going to school still trying to understand how the world works. Also, I was I had a conversation with a physician where I was having pain in my lower abdomen at that time. And they thought because my father had a family history of kidney stones, that I was also having a kidney stone, but being in my 20s I didn’t really question anything. It’s an authority figure. Again, you know, I wasn’t very educated at that time. And so I just went with it, like many people do when they have the interaction with, you know, a trusted resource, but in fact, what happened is I had a ruptured appendicitis. Oh, wow. Yeah. So by having ruptured appendicitis for about a week, that caused my body to go into septic shock, which ultimately led me into the hospital for two weeks and I had a couple different surgeries and based on upon that interaction, in what really I understood from that interaction, and I think a lot of your audience can also understand is that you have a limited window of time that you have when you see a physician. And we’re very hard to articulate or communicate what is happening with your body. And they’re pressed for time. And you’re pressed for getting the information across. And it’s a very challenging interaction between provider and patient right now. And that’s the struggle that I believe many folks across the country have on a regular basis.

Maria Ross 05:38

So tell me, I mean, I so relatable to so many people, and what led you to try to tackle that problem by dealing with how we take medicine? And how we deal with our care at home? Yeah, so

Charles Gellman 05:53

this is where trivia question number one for the audience. Right? How many prescriptions are given out each year in the United States, I want you to take a wild guess, Maria, to anyone, like collectively, collectively, in the United States, oh, my gosh, total prescriptions are there in the United States per year,

Maria Ross 06:11

I’m going to say, I’m going to say something crazy, 100 million, 6

Charles Gellman 06:16

billion prescriptions are giving out each year in the United States. Oh, my goodness, 180 7% of the population has multiple chronic care diseases to manage on their own. That is very, very significant. So what’s the likelihood? trivia question number two, that all 6 billion prescriptions are taken as intended by providers? Oh, I’m

Maria Ross 06:43

gonna say 15%. Okay, well,

Charles Gellman 06:47

this one is a little bit higher. So the clinical studies, it’s about 40 to 50% of all medications are taken as prescribed. So $300 billion a year is wasted on medications, because we don’t know whether or not they’re taking as prescribed so many patients at home, that may or may not understand the complicated regimens or directions by their providers, following those directions, so they’re not getting the benefits and the medications. So my interest in medications really culminated from my background in data science, I was trying to figure out how do we connect the dots? How do we care for people, when they may not be capable, or they’re challenged with caring for themselves at all. So if the majority of time is spent away from a sterile environment, be in the hospital, or the clinic, where you have all of those resources, you have pharmacists, you have nurses, you have physicians that are helping care for you, the second you step away, and you go into your home, look in the mirror, because that’s just caring for you. And if you can’t care for yourself, who is doing it? Right.

Maria Ross 08:01

Right. And you know, what this reminds me of so much is I did a lot of work with healthcare literacy, and patient communications as a patient advisor for the hospital where I got my care after my brain injury. And a lot of what we worked on was communication and education, especially around this issue around discharge, instructions to minimize readmissions, minimize chance of death, chance of injury. And you can only do so much with the communication aspect of it because like you said, when you get home, it’s you in the mirror, or, like in the situation of my aging parents that are now gone. Now you have a you know, 90 something year old partner taken care of and responsible for the dispensing of medicine to their 87 year old spouse. And so there’s no room for error. I mean, just just in trying to put the chart together for my parents way long ago of the different times of day, my mother needed different add medication and what she needed with food and what she didn’t need with food. And this was taken four times a day, but this was taken to and this one, you had to cut the pill in half and and I thought I can’t even keep track of this with a spreadsheet. How is my father keeping track of this, right? So I mean, the technology that you’ve invented, I get let’s just get into that right now. Let’s talk a little bit about what Heito does, and the problem that it solves.

Charles Gellman 09:24

So your story is not not unique. Millions of people are challenged with the exact same thing that you described. So what Haidle is, is the AI system robotic device to smooth care out in the home setting. So we take the medications that you have, we have an embedded RFID hap which knows the medications, the name, dosage, frequency and count that you put in the device is similar to like a Keurig coffee machine. You place it in it auto recognizes read that information. You walk up at unlocks with baseline D, it dispenses the medications as prescribed, and you take it and we monitor dose by dose, whether or not you’re taking your medications. So we know whether or not you missed or taking your medications. You know whether or not you’ve taken your medications, and most importantly, your physician and nurse know what’s going on in the home. And that is why we created Heito, the importance of knowing the cocktails of medications you’re taking are incrementally impactful on your overall health. So your experience as a caregiver, you just got a taste of managing your parents, as you know, you know, remotely or, you know, within that that defined challenge, but there are multiple chronic care conditions, cardiovascular conditions, there’s diabetes, there’s cancer, there’s dementia, that it goes on and on and on. And this is trivia question number three. I love that I have a percent of patients cost me how much money for health plans 1%. It’s probably in the billions are going to ask for a percentage. So Oh, you’re set cost? How much percentage of every dollar? I’m going to say 30%? Great answer. 40% 40 cents of every dollar is 1% of the chronic care population. And 5% of the patient population cost 80% 80 cents of every dollar is going to 5% of the people. So what if we could control that? What if we already pay for the medications for those chronic care diseases, but they’re just not taken as prescribed? Would that not be a travesty? So hydro smooths out the process for patients at home with chronic ear diseases, so we can lower the cost of care and help support people in their home. unassisted so they can live independently with freedom without being dependent on their caregivers. So trivia question number four. How many caregivers are there in the United States?

Maria Ross 12:25

That sounded like a joke of like, How many people does it take to change a light bulb? I’m gonna say 300 million?

Charles Gellman 12:36

Well, there’s almost the entire population is about 300 plus million. The United States. That’s true. Yeah. It’s about maybe 3 million 40 million caregivers in the United States. 40 million. Wow. And most of these folks are not paid for the caregiving services that they’re providing. Absolutely.

Maria Ross 12:54

Because it’s family or friends. It’s yeah, it’s not an official caregiver. Yeah.

Charles Gellman 13:00

So one out of four patients in the country have chronic care diseases. And more than 10% of the population is having some type of caregiver responsibilities. We have a health care system, we are a we are solely dependent on people at home to care for themselves. How is that working out for us? Right?

Maria Ross 13:23

All right. Well, I want to talk a little bit about the fact that, you know, this is reminding me of a past episode, and I’ll put it in the show notes when I interviewed Ron gura, who is the CEO and founder of a company called empathy. And they are leveraging technology to create a better experience for those dealing with bereavement and death in their family and how to how to how to create a better, quote unquote, better experience for those people at a very vulnerable time in their lives. So obviously, with your company, you’re applying, you know, AI assisted robotics, to this very human problem. This very, this problem that touches our emotional well being is that the promise of AI that you see is that the promise of technology where you’re trying to find applications where it can improve lives versus all the scary stuff you hear about in the news every day.

Charles Gellman 14:12

Yeah, so I believe that the the significant promise of AI is enhancing our lives. So, you know, to get headlines, you’re going to have both the positives and the negatives. And, you know, oh, we’re, you know, it’s going to take us to a different realm where AI is going to take over the world to a very primitive technology, which you’ve seen, which is, you know, generative AI, which is, you know, enable text and it does some, you know, applications for efficiency and productivity. What hydro does is it has the potential to enhance and insist your lifestyle. So, a goal is if we have these basic behaviors that need to be altered, so it’s called the classic condition in behavioral modification, we are trying to elicit risk wants is to help you care for yourself. So you can spend time on the most important things like believing your life and not worrying about your medications, right? Whether you take them, you know, just the very right stuff, right?

Maria Ross 15:14

I mean, and I, again, I can relate, and I’m sure many people can too, like, even just certain medications I’m on. It’s like, Did I take that this morning? I forget if I did. And now I don’t know if I should take another one. Because that would be bad. And so that constant, like, do I need that stress on top of everything else going on in my life, like you said, it gets in the way of living,

Charles Gellman 15:34

while you’re trying to balance you know, you a lot of folks have worked in family responsibilities for them. Or maybe they’re helping a friend, family member, as a caregiver, you know, if they had an application where they could just look on their phone, and they didn’t have to remember with all of the other things that are going on, it’s just something to ease the burden on

Maria Ross 15:55

totally reduce that cognitive load for sure. What’s been the most rewarding aspect of I mean, you’re a technologist, you, you know, you’re you’re a founder, but what’s been sort of the emotional reward for you, of working with your customers and working with folks that are using the product? Can you share a story about how it’s really transformed someone’s life? Yeah,

Charles Gellman 16:17

there’s multiple stories. And you know, people, if they want to look on YouTube, just look up Heito, health, ha do health, and you’ll be able to see most multiple patient testimonials, but the biggest impact to me, you know, it’s the end of life. You know, we had a patient, Nancy, that at that time, you know, I didn’t know she had terminal cancer, she was struggling with heart failure. So we were treating her for heart failure, I got to know her and her family. And her family worked very well. Her husband is a hypertensive diabetic patient, David, who still uses our device to this day. And we were able to get to know him through Nancy and Nancy brand of a friend. So we first started this journey. This was, will this work for these patients, because they were wanting some of the things that could help alleviate the burden. And as a founder, and as a technologist, I said, You know what, I don’t know. But let’s try, let’s give it a shot. Because these people already suffering, what if we can alleviate some of the burden, and help enable them to live those final moments and memories, and focus on their family and their loved ones versus trying to manage a very complex regimen and process. So we just went in, we just said, You know what, I don’t know what’s going to happen. But let’s just lean in and see what we can do. And, you know, I was able to get to know her story very well. And, you know, ultimately, she passed and was very challenging for us, we learned a lot. And those experiences, those memories, and the type of impact that we can make on touching people’s lives to help enable them to live the lifestyle they want, or to extend into the moments they have with their family. That’s what drives me 24/7 and drives us as an organization.

Maria Ross 18:06

I love that story. Thank you for sharing that with us. And I want to pull back for a second because you sparked something in that answer that I’ve seen in my career working in tech as well, is, obviously the passion of so many founders is the people component is how is this technology going to enhance someone’s business or life? They’re very close to their customers, whether they’re doing beta testing, or MVP testing, anything like that? How do you see that transferring? Let’s say at some point the company sold, it grows so big, you’re no longer there that touch point, that singular touch point. I’m curious how you transfer that empathy and that caring and that passion in a succession plan? How do you get someone to take over a company or to lead a company that they didn’t start? And still feel that same passion, that same empathy for their customers? I’m curious if you have any thoughts on that?

Charles Gellman 19:05

Yeah. So that is a great insight, you know how to essentially ensure the legacy of compassion. Empathy will continue after you stepped aside because there will be a succession plan as we grow and scale out. And this is a product that could reach worldwide exposure out into Asia and Europe and the Middle East, and Latin America. And that’s very realistic. And my guess counterpoint would be is that, you know, when you start thinking about patients as a whole, and then being solely independent, rely on themselves. The way I see it is just by having our technology integrated within their home is a substantial lift to everybody training, manage this complex regimen, no matter what country or what language or what leaders in charge, and vice simplifying that process with AI technology, you will lift up many, many millions of people right now that are struggling, that it’s a unknown paradigm. And so the leader that will, you know, succeed in this position and roll through, they’ll understand the type of impact that they’re making to humanity as a whole, in carry on the mission legacy that we started here. Well,

Maria Ross 20:26

it’s also something you know, we, I’ve talked about this many times in terms of culture, it’s something that you look for, right? So when you’re, when you’re selecting that successor, it’s do the values of the organization and for you the values of the founder, are you aligned with that? Can you get on board with that? Do you genuinely connect with that mission, and that that vision, that purpose of our company, and so you know, that’s part of the selection process, not just the business acumen of the next person that that steps in charge, but I know, we went off on a little bit of a tangent there, but I was just so curious from your perspective, because that’s often a struggle, I hear from founders who are very passionate about the impact of their technology. And then sometimes they sell their companies sometimes, you know, I’ve talked to other founders, and they feel like the values of the company have been eroded, because the people that took over didn’t hold those same values, dear.

Charles Gellman 21:20

Yeah, I think it just depends. I mean, that’s just a question of just interviewing folks that are aligned with your vision and mission and capable of hearing it to those next levels. And there are plenty of good folks out there that want to do the right thing that and drive business and make an impact. And they are mission driven. So it’s just a question to just connect, I

Maria Ross 21:41

think them? Yeah, absolutely. So let’s talk a little bit, again, about the AI and automation industry writ large. This is a common debate that’s happening is empathy going away, because of AI, and because of automation. What’s your perspective.

Charles Gellman 21:58

So I think that AI technologies can help enhance, you know, specific items in life, if you’re solely dependent on a chatbot. And then you can eliminate, you know, all type of human factors or connections, that’s where I think, you know, things kind of get away from understanding the situations, I don’t see that taking place, unless it’s very mundane tasks, like you’re calling in for a prompt and you’re trying to get a bank balance, or, or something very simplistic in nature, where it’s just, you just need a simple task done. But once you need full understanding, they can enhance the data to bring it front and center for people to understand and synthesize and then have a educated discussion, versus you hear them typing up on the other side, and trying to pull that information. So again, I believe it’s going to enhance professions over time, and the people that lean into it and utilize it, they will be miles ahead versus people that are still on pen and paper.

Maria Ross 23:04

Love that. Love that. And let’s talk about kind of a final wrap up the role of empathy, in altering behaviors to improve health outcomes, like you’re in this space, you’re tackling this problem in a very specific way with technology. But how do you see the role as empathy of empathy evolving, or, or ramping up to achieve better health outcomes? I mean, you you’re talking to physicians all the time, you’re talking to patients all the time. What do you see as the landscape of where empathy is really improving those health outcomes? Whether it’s with technology or not,

Charles Gellman 23:44

you wonder that you have to understand the challenges that everybody has. And that’s why I proceeded the conversation, the beginning is that your providers struggle, giving care to people, and patients struggle communicating what is happening with themselves, because they’re not educated from a medical standpoint, and you have to communicate it accordingly. So you get this moment of lost in translation. So you have to understand where both parties are coming messenger and receiver to broadcast that message, synthesize it and understand it. So based upon the unique circumstances, and the constraints that exists within healthcare, and the burdens that people experience on both sides, then you can start attacking the underlying issues and address them accordingly. But you have to understand what challenges that they have in order to address them accordingly. And that’s why we stay very, very close with both providers and patients and the different types of, you know, struggles that people have. So then we can build accordingly. And I’ve said this time and time again. Heito is the culmination of the ship discussions and interactions. It’s not because of us. It’s been Designed by the customer for the customer, as needed, when needed. Love

Maria Ross 25:05

that. Love that. So, Charles, thank you so much for your time today. And more importantly for this work you’re putting into the world to improve people’s lives. And you’re you’re coming at it from such a perspective of empathy and a desire to improve people’s lives and well being. So I really applaud that effort. And we’re going to have all your links in the show notes. I’m going to put a link to the intro video for Heito as well which was really explains the product and the promise very, very well in a very succinct way. But for folks on the go, who might be exercising right now as they’re listening to us, where’s the best place they can get in touch with you or find out more about your work. So please

Charles Gellman 25:44

visit us at hydro health. It’s H ideal health or you can go on YouTube search a hydro health, we have plenty of videos on there for you to peruse and look forward to connecting you if you have any. Anything you want to drop comments or likes or feedback, please feel free to write accordingly.

Maria Ross 25:59

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Charles. Thank you, Maria for having me. Appreciate it. And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard, you know what to do, rate review and share it with a colleague or a friend. And until next time, please remember that kashflow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Shizu Okusa: From Wall Street to Wellness: How One Entrepreneur Built Empathy Into Her Success

I’ve often said that many entrepreneurs get their business ideas from practicing empathy. From either experiencing a pain point themselves or wanting to solve a pain or provide a benefit to an audience who needs it. Today, we talk to one such start-up entrepreneur, Shizu Okusa, the Founder and CEO of wellness company Apothékary.

Today, Shizu shares her entrepreneurial journey from Wall Street to wellness, and how many of her leadership and product philosophies are inspired by her Japanese heritage. We discuss why self-awareness is key for founders to be successful for the long haul and specific examples of how Apothékary creates an empathetic culture devoted to her employees’ and customers’ well-being. We discuss the number one reason many leaders can’t embrace empathy – to their own detriment. And Shizu shares how they gather customer feedback as well as how they make remote work more personal and collaborative. Finally, Shizu offers her advice to other leaders and entrepreneurs looking to lead with empathy.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Self-awareness is key to being an effective leader. You can’t have the space in your brain for empathy, creativity, and listening if you don’t know where you are at.
Rather than having a maximum number of vacation days, consider setting a minimum number of vacation days to support your team and encourage them to take care of themselves.
Empathy is consumer psychology in the business world. It is sometimes seen as a soft skill, but compassion and business success are not mutually exclusive.
Surveys are a great way to gather information from your customers, but if you don’t take action on that data, that data is wasted.

“The CEO’s job is to provide the healthy oxygen for your team to breathe in.” — Shizu Okusa

Episode References:

The Ranch, Malibu, California

The Empathy Edge podcast episodes referenced:

Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!

About Shizu Okusa, Founder and CEO, Apothékary

Shizu Okusa is a Wall Street alum-turned-wellness entrepreneur. After leaving an intense finance career, she became inspired to live a more balanced lifestyle and revisit her Japanese roots and passion for herbal medicine. Shizu set out to help others regain their holistic health using traditions she grew up with and ones she learned along the way. Now, she proudly leads Apothékary in its mission to deliver natural herbal remedies that get to the root cause of health issues rather than masking the symptoms.

Connect with Shizu Okusa:

Apothékary: https://www.apothekary.co/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shizu-okusa-87a25415

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/apothekaryco/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/apothekaryco/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUlZ43PITt9RsTJNZX1F6JQ

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Shizu Okusa 02:41

Thank you so much. This is amazing. It feels like all those terms. And words are combinations of all the things that I’ve strived to do here at apothecary, so I’m happy to be here. Thank

Maria Ross 02:51

you. Awesome. So let’s start because your story is so interesting. Your entrepreneurial journey is really interesting. Tell us a little bit about your story, and how you got to the work you’re doing now. Absolutely.

Shizu Okusa 03:04

It’s not super linear, but I think that’s what most entrepreneurs stories are. So I was born and raised in Vancouver on a farm. My parents were both Japanese immigrants coming out of World War Two, they were actually an intern camps. And it was kind of a crazy time for them to grow out. And they were like, please get a stable job. We got you here in Canada. And of course, my first job then was in Wall Street, I chose sort of this, what I thought would be the most stable thing and the most lucrative money wise because that’s the thing that we didn’t have as an immigrant family. And I kind of flew myself to New York got myself a job on the one of the most stressful but most, I would say the most brightest of people on that trading floor. And I joined the distressed investing desk there at Goldman Sachs for about three years and kind of was again like nonlinear, I kind of quickly knew, being empathetic to myself realized this wasn’t the right fit for me. And so I really deeply thought about my eulogy virtues and my resume virtues and how I wanted to shift my focus not just from my resume my career to more of like how I want to live and how I want to be remembered when I die. And I know that sounds so crazy, but you know, I grew up again in like a very Buddhist family. So I traveled the world for a bit I lived on a Banana Farm in Mozambique and Africa. I lived there for a year, then got myself back to DC where I then started my first company. It was a cold pressed juice brand called drink. And I did that for eight and a half years making cold pressed juices and smoothies. We had 15 stores partnerships with whole foods. We got acquired and I was able to then kind of start my second company apothecary and what I call apothecary today’s Mother Nature’s pharmacy, we are providing clean, natural herbal remedies that bridge Eastern medicine with Western health care. And we provide sort of these herbal alternatives to over the counter supplements so melatonin, laxatives wine, energy drinks, quick fixes, and I don’t know what else could be more sort of empathetically focused because, you know, this whole vision has been And I know there are more consumers like me that don’t want to use melatonin as a crutch. I know there are people that drink just as much as I do with wine and don’t want to drink as much. But we want like a better alternative. That’s not gross. That’s not dark and witchy. That’s not like, on accessible from a price point perspective. And so we wanted to create that. And that’s kind of what apothecary is today, four years later.

Maria Ross 05:25

Okay, so funny because you’re describing me with the melatonin and the wine, but I’m so interested in the pivot you made from Wall Street to wellness prompted that? Was it the environment you were in? Was it the culture you were working in? Like? What prompted that? That route?

Shizu Okusa 05:41

Yeah, you know, I think it was. So be I lived, I was on a very interesting desk at Goldman, a very unique and special desk and distressed investing, which means usually, it’s companies that are going through bankruptcy or about to go through bankruptcy. So I was looking at companies that were like bus companies, yellow page books, companies, like who knew right at the time. And all of that being said, it was like, at the very end of the lifecycle for a business, it almost looked like I was just looking at death every single day of a company. And I’m, as you can probably tell, I thrive on the energy I thrive of life, I want to breathe and live and give back life. And I didn’t want to keep doing that in a world where I’d wake up at 4am in the morning, and go to bed at like 11 o’clock at night with alcohol in my system every single day. And I think a lot of people just need to ask themselves, like pretty early on, like, like, is this the life that I intended for myself, we live once we really live a very short period of time in this world. And as much as sometimes we think this day is going by too slow, or like, I just want to get to tomorrow, or I want to get to my next vacation. That’s just like not the way I wanted to live. I don’t look forward to my vacation personally, because I don’t take vacation. I don’t I don’t need it. Like I I was listening to something yesterday about like when when things are going well. And you have momentum you never burn out. Like I’m sure you feel the same way for yourself. Marie is like when you have momentum and things are going great. You can do that every day, all day, every day. Right? It’s when the entrepreneurial bumps in the road, the crashes and falls on your face happen. And that’s when you start to burn out. Right.

Maria Ross 07:13

Right. It’s so true. And I think that that’s the culture, especially for people that work inside organizations. Yeah, that’s the part of the culture that gets to them where they’re like, you know, I am starting to burnout, I do need to refuel, I need to re energize I need to replenish in some way. And I advocate very strongly for that, because as you know, we were talking before we started recording, is that empathy is more accessible to you when you’re in that state of being when you are feeling replenished and rejuvenated. And you’re well as full, as I like to say, because then you can take on another person’s perspective without defensiveness or fear. You can you can get curious, you’re not in such a self protective mode. Yeah. And what I loved about apothecary, and your story is that you had that need as a person in the world. And then now you’ve created this company that creates that for other people. And that’s a common thread, I actually spoke about it or wrote about it in my book, The Empathy edge, where the spark for entrepreneurship is oftentimes, I mean, nine times out of 10. Yes, empathetic, it’s, yeah, I have this challenge and this problem and this need. And I want to help other people with this as well. Yeah,

Shizu Okusa 08:29

yeah. It’s really, really good point. I mean, we recently did a whole rebrand for this very reason around empathy. Because I was just, you know, I just told you that was just on the interview right before this. And I was sharing that I think apothecary wouldn’t be alive in a year from now, if we didn’t do that rebrand. And I think it’s such an important investment that we did. And I know investors are probably like, Bran doesn’t matter. But like, I’m like, no,

Maria Ross 08:53

no, we have a whole other episode about that as a brand strategy.

Shizu Okusa 08:59

It’s probably better than anyone. Looking specifically just for numbers. And as an investor, those are all former past indicators. They’re not leading indicators. And when I was looking at some of our leading indicators, as an early stage company, it’s really important that you’re looking at affinity to brand and, you know, engagement to brand. And it was very clear to me that the packaging at the time was not suited for that we were putting powders into juice shop bottles, which was my first company, of course, it didn’t work out. And so now we did a rebrand, we’re being much more thoughtful about like, the packaging. So things, you know, you know, given the podcast is very clear, like, you know, there’s an opening on the side so that people can look inside. It’s very apparent that people from an empathy standpoint, like they want to know what’s inside. So we give them that opportunity we give them so that they know exactly what they can expect inside. Being again, like, if I was a consumer, how would I want to be treated like me lately?

Maria Ross 09:53

Completely and being in lockstep, you know, again, I write about this a lot being in lockstep with your customers. so that you’re speaking their language and you’re creating something they need, from their point of view. I mean, it’s great to start with a product that you have in mind or a service that you have in mind. But you’ve got to road test it. And then you have to understand how does it fit into my ideal clients life? How did? How do they interact with it? How do they feel about it? Because I work with a lot of tech companies, even though I’ve worked with b2c as well. And that’s the thing I’m trying to always drill into their heads is that I know you’re selling to IT people, for example, but every human being buys based on emotion and logic. And often they use the logic to justify the emotion, they don’t even always realize why they’re making the decision that they’re making. And just since we’re talking about this, I’m gonna put a link in the show notes to another episode, Melina Palmer, where we talked about behavioral economics, and why people buy and why sometimes customers can’t tell you why they feel a certain way, or why they’re making the decision that they’re making, because they actually don’t always consciously realize it. Yeah.

Shizu Okusa 11:07

But it’s also like, Do you think that’s a function of just being busier as a society now, like, consumers just don’t want to think

Maria Ross 11:13

no, it’s human. It’s actually how our brains are wired. And she cites a lot. In her books, she cites a lot about basically how the brain works, Daniel Kahneman, ZZ work, and different studies and research projects that have been done around pricing around packaging, around display, and have you we say that it doesn’t matter to us that it doesn’t matter. If you say, Buy one, get one free or buy three get to, you know, if you word it a different way, but it actually does the data show that it does, right. So I love that you’re already building the business and working through the business and I love that you rebranded like, it’s sometimes you have to rebrand, like you do you do consumer needs change, the marketplace change, competition changes, messaging changes all those things. So I love that you’re doing that from a customer point of view. So is that something you know, for leaders and entrepreneurs listening? Is that something that was intentional from day one for you to be so in lockstep with your customers? Was that something that the company came to? Over time? Where did that philosophy develop?

Shizu Okusa 12:20

I think this was so tight, I don’t know if this ties into but I’m just gonna say it, I, I have a lot of focus on one thing, right. And so when I’m building apothecary, I’m very hyper focused on this chapter of my life, which allows me to give space and boundaries to other parts of my life, that maybe otherwise other people would do. So like, I don’t have kids, I’m not married, I’m very focused on the company, my team, and then supporting myself so they can continue to breathe healthy oxygen into the business. And what that means, though, is I also have downtime in my day, make it I’m not running around chasing kids or chasing diapers, or like serving my husband food. I don’t know what other people do. But like that capacity allows me to take journaling time, and really get into the weeds of like, what did I do today? What do I want to do accomplish tomorrow? What were some of the challenges that we faced, and really kind of manifest the things that I think I need to do, and that I think that ties into I think a little bit about the empathy piece has been just around self awareness I’ve been, I’ve been very aware of my journey, both as a founder, both as a prospective partner, for other person, and I just want to be thoughtful about that before I enter a new chaos into my life. And so I think to that, to that end, I’ve been, I’m always thinking about the business. And I’m always thinking about what how to better serve the community and the customers. And when that when I run out of ideas, or when I think I can’t do that anymore, that’s the time that founders also need to be really aware and empathetic to the fact that that’s, your time has maybe passed for this journey of this company. And it’s time to now think about a succession plan. And so I think any healthy entrepreneur will ask those questions, and we’re not going to be self imposed by, you know, restrictions around the shoulds. The, the, the expectations on ourselves that a founder will always be a part of the company. I don’t know about that. You know, and I think it’s for now, it works for now. It’s great for now, I think I’m needed for now, you know, it’s so important for the stage of the business, we’re only less than four years in that we’re really listening to the consumer. It’s a consumer business, right? And so we have to be listening we have to be watching and ultimately be creating for something that they don’t even know they want yet.

Maria Ross 14:31

100% I have so many things to unpack there that I’m like lighting up about because the one of the things you mentioned was that ability to create enough stillness in space. Yeah, to be able to hear yourself and to be self aware and for the new book that I’m working on that’s coming out anytime you’re raising 2024 You’re one of the one of the pillars of being an effective empathetic leader is self awareness. Because if you don’t know your strengths if you don’t know your blind spots if you don’t know your triggers. Yeah. And like you said, if you don’t know, when you’re hearing that voice that says you need a break, or you need you need to read, refresh, you need to re Energize. Yeah, you can’t have the space in your brain to be able to go. Let me get more creative over here. Or let me take time to listen to my employees over here. Or let me take time to listen to my customers over here. Absolutely. I love that that was such a key component for you. Yeah, in building the business. And so I want to ask you, you know, how do you foster a culture of empathy? Yeah, I think we’ve talked a lot on the show to to larger companies. Yeah. And a few smaller companies. But I really want to dive into this. Because what I love about startups and small businesses that I’ve worked with in the past, is you have the opportunity to build things right from the beginning. Yeah, we don’t always, but what have you done to build a culture of empathy into into the company, so that you can continue to empower and engage your employees to do their best work?

Shizu Okusa 16:07

Yeah. So I think there’s a few things. It’s, I think about mostly scheduling the types of work that we give and mental health days. And so one thing that we started from the very beginning of a company was mental health days. So, you know, this was even before COVID. I mean, we was gonna say, was it before it was trendy? Yeah, it was before 2020. And so like, we gave everybody once a month has a mental health day, you know, you can take that in addition to your PTO. You know, we encourage people to take that, because it’s actually something I’ve been thinking about a lot recently, because I’ve started to take vacation. Finally, personally, myself, even and I’m like, I, we need to have a minimum vacation day. Not a maximum, but a minimum. Because, yeah, the way that we hired apothecary, because I do come from Wall Street, I have at Wall Street expectations. But I also have, but that also comes with like being Japanese and having very high expectations and sort of on ourselves, right? I think the Japanese culture is a lot of perfection, unfortunately. But it would balance, right. And all these like nomenclatures like do wabi sabi which means imperfection, is is beautiful and iki guy, which means life purpose, and like, there’s all these words that I think I’ve been surrounded by, through my culture, and my family, that I’ve we’ve tried to, like really instill that with the business. So whether it’s like through a harmony video with my mom, the heritage video with my dad, we tried to really interweave the side about self awareness and meditation and using the lifestyle component of plant medicine. And so that’s one piece. I think the second is like, you know, when I first took my vacation earlier this year, I went to this place called the ranch Malibu, which I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, it’s like a, you have, okay, great.

Maria Ross 17:50

So,

Shizu Okusa 17:50

you know, I absolutely love that it was like, seven days of complete offline, not having to think about a single decision or what I was going to eat or where I would need to be, you didn’t need to be anywhere, but there. And so that was kind of a journey for me to say, you know, I schedule my emails now for our team, I don’t send an email be beyond seven o’clock at night. I don’t send emails on weekends, I scheduled it for Monday morning. And so it’s just being again thought I turned my email on a way purposely so that because I know my team is going to check their email, they’re going to see if I’m on Gchat, or slack. And they’ll be like, Oh, my God, she’s working again. Right? So I purposely go on away, which should also just

Maria Ross 18:28

creates anxiety for people like, even if they’re just checking it, to make sure there’s no fires, if they see, you know, like, I know, when I checked my email, I’ve got like, 300 new messages a day when I log on in the morning, and it just, I feel it rising in my chest, just like, oh, you know, that feeling of like, do I need to go through this do I need to just spend some time clearing it out, so I don’t have to face it. When I come back. It just creates all kinds of anxiety.

Shizu Okusa 18:53

It does. It does. And I mean, as you know, we can schedule things we can boomerang or inbox, we pause the inbox, but the very least from my job, like, again, if the CEOs job is to provide the healthy oxygen for your team to breathe in, if I’m if I am breathing carbon dioxide to my team, that’s gonna kill the team pretty quickly. And so again, if we’re nature is medicine, we’re sourcing sustainably we’re recycling sustainably from a team side, I also have to be breathing in the right medicine for my team. And part of that is the words that they use the emails that I send out the content that we share the time off that you get the offline and online component. I often tell teams like if you’ve had 10 calls already today, please turn off your video camera. Just get off the camera. I know it’s exhausting. Just get off, take calls while you’re walking. Send voice notes instead by the beach. I don’t care. I just want a job. And I don’t care about formalities. I really don’t

Maria Ross 19:48

know. Why do you think what do you think gets in the way of more entrepreneurs and more leaders quite frankly. Yeah, having that perspective. I’m just curious. I always like to ask other people what they think gets in the way of people being able to be an empathetic leader like that. I think it’s scarcity. Yeah,

Shizu Okusa 20:08

I think I have to admit that like when I was a, you know, when you’re when this gets very spiritual, but if you’re thinking about your root chakra falling off, or you’re like Maslow’s hierarchy are very bottom doesn’t have any base, ie like money issues, like you go into complete scarcity mode, and I think you then try to control everything. And then you try to like, you put parameters in place, and then you lose all sense of empathy. Because your empathy, I think, is one of those things that you think about at the very top, it’s close to self awareness, self actualization, in terms of Maslow’s hierarchy. And so, again, if you’re at the very bottom, because you’re just trying to survive, that’s where I think people can’t make those decisions from a place of abundance.

Maria Ross 20:47

100% I feel like if that foundation is weak, yeah, you just you’re in self preservation mode. Yeah, there’s no ability for you to think beyond your own needs, and see and hear and understand someone else’s point of view or someone else’s perspective. Exactly. So I love that I love that. You talked a little bit about, you know, prioritizing the well being of your employees. What about the products you choose to sell, and even this industry that you’ve gotten into? What role does empathy play in that mission? Of being empathetic to community being empathetic to the planet? Like, Was that intentional? Is that because I don’t know that every wellness company talks that you say, yeah, yeah,

Shizu Okusa 21:34

it’s a good point. And I think it’s interesting. It goes, this sounds so silly, but I think it goes a little bit to like color psychology, because when I when we were doing our rebrand, we were very intentional about like, what Pantone colors to choose for our brown book, you’re very intentional about moods.

Maria Ross 21:52

speaking my language right now, like, seriously, all of those things, say something, whether you want them to say it or not, they’re going to say something. So you have to be intentional

Shizu Okusa 22:02

about that. Yeah. And so you probably know, this is like light purple is more like lilac and calming, right, yellow is more uppity and energizing. Green is something that feels more like filling and like its nature. So you feel like you’re just left with like abundance of energy. And so that’s why it’s on our energy blend, to chill the eff out. It’s like a light blue, because we want to take you to the moon and sky and we want even like relax and be expensive. And so we use a lot of that with like color therapy and color psychology. And then I think layering on top of that has been always like the opening unboxing experience. So when we how do we want to feel when we open that box? We want people to be like great packaging, she’s to, like, if I hear that. I’m like, my job’s done. I’m done. I’m retiring. Now, like you, we know that we’ve done our jobs. Right. And most times, it doesn’t require like a 5000 bajillion dollar investment in brand. Like it can be as simple as a little gift note, yes, simple as like a little additional bubble wrap around a certain thing, because we knew it might break or just little touches, you know, and it goes such a long way.

Maria Ross 23:09

Yeah, it really does. It really does. And so, you know, again, kind of getting back to beyond your customer and beyond your employee. What policies or practices do you have in place that are empathetic to the community or empathetic to the environment, let’s say,

Shizu Okusa 23:24

Yeah, so right now, so all of our packaging is completely biodegradable. So we use all of our sort of these secondary cartons and the primary packaging, everything is recycled goods. And then we use wood pulp packaging from this guy here. And then when customers subscribe, which is about 30% of the business, so they subscribe to like a regular product getting delivered. At their second delivery, we actually send refills. And so we know the customers wanting to save money by the time they’re on their second or third order. So we make sure we send them a refill. And that refill actually is like 30% more product. So they get the benefit of having more product, and it’s cheaper. But also for mother nature, we can ship it in a lower, sort of like just basic USPS mailer, and then it saves money on the shipping environment and the bulk, we don’t need to use a box, which is more water intensive, too. And so everything is so thoughtfully, I think created from like our rebrand experience and always putting ourselves where the customer is in terms of what really matters, rent as we think about like all of our new formats, you know, alcohol alternatives continue to be a very big category for us. And so when we’re thinking about the names of the product, like take the edge off, very, very clear, but what that is intended to do wind down very, very clear what it is and what the intention is right is to like wind you down, rose a tinted glass, it’s very clear. You want to lose your mood. It’s a Rosedale alternative. And so there’s just a lot of I think consumer psychology maybe, and empathy. It’s very interrelated. And I think to your it’s interesting because empathy I think, in many ways is consumer psychology as a terminology for business and business world. Yeah, for sure. It’s just kind of sad because it feels like sometimes there’s workplaces that may not feel like the word empathy is like a safe word to use. Because they think it’s too soft.

Maria Ross 25:12

I don’t know. Exactly. I mean, I mean that, yeah. Welcome to like my world of just trying to make the business case for empathy. When really what I’m trying to do is just make the world more empathetic. I’m just starting at the place where we spend the bulk of our time and energy, which is that work. So but but the benefits, they’re there. They’re not mutually exclusive. I talked about this all the time. Actually, when I sign off on the podcast, I say cashflow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. No, we’re not signing a light on on entrepreneurs and leaders and companies like yours, who are showing that you can find success that way. Yep. And everybody wins. Like, yeah, this Yeah, nothing bothers me more than the either or thinking of like, purpose or profit. Yeah, it’s not mutually exclusive. The or ambition? No, there, it’s both and right. So, uh, gosh, so many questions I want to ask you. What would you what are some ways that you can share that are great strategies or methods for staying in touch with your customers on a consistent basis? Do you do anything innovative in terms of gathering that customer feedback? And it doesn’t have to be, you know, overly innovative? It could be something. Yeah, effective. But what are the ways that you actually gather feedback? How many different mechanisms and methods do you have?

Shizu Okusa 26:33

So you know, the craziest thing is like, we have over 500,000, email customers subscribers, and when we do launches, we send it from Shizu. apothecary, the people are willingly going to be able to just be me back. And then on our Instagram, you can look today it says, founder, Japanese and female founded by she’s a Prusa, you can click on that, and you can DM me at any time. So my door’s always open for our customers. And I think the surprising thing is, most people will probably still not reach out to you, even though it’s that accessible, but at least knowing that the door is open, and there is a door means so much to people already. And so when people ask questions on Instagram about a certain product, or like they ask questions, generally, I always respond to that myself. As for my personal, my personal account, and so there was always a means for someone to get in contact with me whether it’s by email, hack, I don’t know, smoke, smoke signal, by letter for sure. Because shipping from our facility, so people, people write letters to me from to the facility. And then they can also DM me. So I think it’s one of those things where it doesn’t matter as much. Like we don’t purposely need to say she’s just reaching out to you, we always have a door open. That’s always been an open door. But that

Maria Ross 27:50

may not scale over time, like you’re one person with one personal account. So how do you think about actually making sense of that feedback? So not? Not just the gathering of it, but just synthesizing it and prioritizing it? Are there methods that you use that could be helpful for listeners of trying to figure out you know, everyone just falls back on surveys all the time, right? Yeah. And yeah, that’s very methodical. And that’s a very organized way to gather information and collate it and, you know, make it into pretty graphs and charts and all the things. But you know, it’s also about are you asking the right questions? Are you getting getting feedback that’s useful? How is that feedback being implemented in a future product decisions or pricing decisions? So can you talk to us a little bit about your process around synthesizing that feedback? Yeah,

Shizu Okusa 28:43

absolutely. So there’s a few things that we do do, including like, you know, we saw not, so we have automations, running so few automations. Right, which are after you purchase something, there’s a post purchase survey, like did we serve you in terms of all of your needs that you were looking for today? That’s part one. Part two is what were you primarily here looking for? And 80% of our consumers say stress? So that’s on one thing. So right, I think if that continues to be the answer, we’re doing a good job, because I would say 50% or more of our products are focused on stress, if not the connection to stress. And so from that perspective, I think we continue to serve our consumers where they are. And then we have every one week, so t plus one week, meaning the time upon delivery, and a week later, we’ll send a post purchase survey through a review system. So it allows him to anonymously review. So that you know, it is a survey system on that regard. And I think that there could be a world and this is actually a world that we believe will come very soon because we are hiring the community liaison community person, so that person will be dedicated specifically to creating and fostering a healthier community of communication. And so that includes things like our Facebook group and they make sure that we’re engaging people through the right recipe. We are creating journeys soon as well right which are going to be these plot Medicine journeys that will be international. So to allow consumers to come with us and go through journeys of meditation, heart opening exercises. And so it’s just been like, that is all part of listening, I think to our consumer and where they are today. And then also just getting gathering input from like these reviews and surveys. But to your point, I think from a brand perspective, we still have room to go, right? Short, right, we will always have room to go.

Maria Ross 30:26

And I love this because I love hearing this from the perspective of an actual in the trenches practitioner, and I’m gonna put a link to a few episodes I’ve done around customer journey mapping, gathering customer insights, and also on building effective communities, because I’ve interviewed experts in those areas. And I think anyone listening to this, with their eye on trying to gather the best practices of things, will just give them a little package in the show notes of other places they can go as well. I love that, though. Because we want to hear what’s really going on, you know what I mean? Yeah, you can talk to consultants and experts all you want, but how are people actually leading? How are they actually running their companies? Right? And so how will you this is kind of an interesting question that maybe some founders have on this that are doing everything very old school personal touch away? How will you know, when you get to a point that you can’t manage? people contacting you directly? Um, have you thought about that? Or is it Yeah, I know, it’s, when you come to it. Yeah,

Shizu Okusa 31:27

you know, you can ask my team, but like, I tend to operate in a capacity where I don’t think I feel like I actually have 50 people working for me, I think I operate from a world where, like, I today was a launch of our wind down product or like, which I think is going to be like our number one SKU going into next year, I sent a photo to literally everyone in the entire company, because we have like one email that goes to everyone is a listserv, and I sent a photo of my nails. And I was like, Look, guys, in celebration of wine now launching, here’s my matching manicure. Er, and I was like, I was like, I don’t care if people don’t perceive me to be the CEO that they think I need to be or whatever. It allows me to continue to be free, not feel bogged down, not feel bogged down by bureaucracy. Yeah. role. And I think what I’ve learned the most about myself over the last year is that it’s, it’s money to me is less important than freedom. And I think about the moment where I know my freedom becomes constrained, whether through customers emailing me and there being that being just too much, I’ll know, my body will tell me and I’ll hire someone to like, you know, potentially be my EA or something. But that’s far, I actually gave my EA to our head of operations, because

Maria Ross 32:37

like I don’t want to manage. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Oh, my God, I love it. Well, you’re speaking to really about tapping into your authentic leadership style. Yeah. And I think that’s why so many entrepreneurs go off on their own. I know, I went off on my own because I was tired of the politics, right and tired of, I wanted to do things my way and not like at the expense of not listening to people. But you know, when you have there’s so much added stress on employees. Yeah, you know, which is some of their dissatisfaction with workplace culture is most a lot of it’s not about the actual work. Yeah, it’s about the environment that they swim in. It’s about the, like, I can’t just focus on my work, because I’ve got to worry about politics, and I’ve got to worry about optics, and I’ve got to worry about that person that’s going to stab me in the back. Which is, is. It’s not hilarious. It’s sad, but you know, CFOs, do you realize how much productive hours are being wasted by your people? Because of poor workplace culture? Yeah, like to say it’s fluffy. You say it’s soft? Yeah. Like, attach $1 value to that if you need to, to understand the impact. And so I know, because you’ve stretched you know, you’ve been in Wall Street, you’re starting your own business. I know, you get that. Yeah.

Shizu Okusa 33:50

I mean, you know, the trading floor is probably a whole new extreme, right? Like, I learned to yellow across the room and be yelled at, and to be sitting beside someone with their, their pants, kind of like half on button because they’re trying to eat lunch. And they’re just kind of like, I don’t give a shit like that vibe. That’s the vibe of trading floors. Right? And, you know, recently with apothecary, even because we’re fully remote, and I was reading about this, from a culture standpoint, it’d be really easy to feel like you’re just a zoom face, right? Like you’re just a face that logs on and then logs off and can be really replaced, replaceable, but like, that’s not what we want to create. And so now, you know, onboarding has been a very big progress and work in progress for us. The onboarding now has a buddy system, and like a full transparent 3060 90 Day goal setting process. And so we know that that all that first 90 days will really set the company up for success with that first employee, but the buddy system is huge. Because otherwise in remote, you’re kind of just talking to your three or four people in your department. And so the buddy system allows for that cross functional relationships and to be able to make friends Isn’t the company that could because you might not have to work with them directly? So that’s a lot, I think on retention,

Maria Ross 35:05

for sure for sure. Because you can’t, you know, I’ve done a few episodes on hybrid work. And yeah, actually spoken to people that do really great team building and skill building work with remote teams and how they’ve managed to combine that with philanthropy. Actually, it’s really cool. But I’ll put a link to that Terry Terry Schultz is episode. But it’s this idea of, you know, what people do miss about the in person environment is the happy accidents. Yeah, the the magical moments that you don’t plan for that just happen. And unfortunately, when we are on Zoom calls all the time, when we hang up, we hang up, and we’re by ourselves. There’s no one to debrief with. There’s no one to sort of collide with in the hallway. But it doesn’t mean we can’t be innovative. And it doesn’t mean we can’t form close connections. Sure. So I love that you’re being really intentional about that, rather than what I’m seeing a lot of leaders do is out of fear of the unknown. They’re snapping back to the way things were because they’re more comfortable leading that way. Instead of saying things have changed. Now let’s figure out how to make this work environment work for us and still foster collaboration and foster creativity. Yeah, I love that you’ve actually looked at the the pressure points within that process. And you’re addressing them very specifically, like the onboarding process, for example, or the buddy system being very specific examples of like, these were the these are the problems, the challenges, we’ve pinpointed with working remotely? Yes, solve for those rather than throwing the whole thing out and demanding everybody come back to work. Yeah, absolutely. So I love that. Okay. So as we wrap up, I could talk to you for another hour, like I say to all my guests, but we can’t as an entrepreneur, what advice would you give to other businesses, looking to build companies with an empathetic approach, looking to understand that empathy and profitability, empathy, and success

Shizu Okusa 37:05

can coexist? Whoo, new processes. Say more. I think for us, you know, so recently, what we’ve tried to do with every launch that we’ve done, so for example, we had our very big black Friday, this past Black Friday, and it has defeated all expectations that we originally would have had. And because we’re starting, we’re always kind of like, on the next thing, we’re already thinking about January. Now we’re thinking about like our new launch in February, March, April, May, June, it’s exhausting to keep going that way. And it’s exhausting. For me, too. As much as I’m excited about the next new thing, it’s really important to do a post mortem. And so now we intentionally create these post mortem calendar invites to ourselves, keeping ourselves accountable with the right people on that call to say what went right, what went wrong? What can we do better? Where did we struggle? Where could we have done better and supported each other? What actual mistakes happened? What was the cost to that and also celebrate the wins along the way. And so, from a company standpoint, those are new processes that we’ve put in place. And I think like, that allows us to always just be better. And that’s also just the Japanese philosophy of Kaizen, right? Kaizen has always been this idea of constant improvement. It’s also tiring to say that because my life is full of constant improvements, and I’m never perfect, but hey, that’s the life that we live in. So right now is probably one concrete and good example for other leaders to put into place. So what

Maria Ross 38:32

I hear you saying, If I can paraphrase that, is that never losing sight of that growth mindset? And being willing to learn from mistakes? Yeah, and create new processes or new ways of doing things going forward? Absolutely. We

Shizu Okusa 38:44

are never a fixed mindset company. I think that from a culture fit, we probably wouldn’t ever hire someone that had a fixed mindset from like a culture personality standpoint. And so it’s very early on that we recognize that if we made a bad hire, because they’re not growing, and it’s very clear, yeah, right. They’re

Maria Ross 39:01

really happy with the status quo. And they don’t want. Yeah, that’s actually a really good piece of advice, too, is is higher, right and higher, don’t just have, you know, as part of my branding work, we will articulate values and will our vision as part of it. But those can’t just be pretty posters that live on the wall. Yeah, those have to be applied in everyday actions and used to vet everyday actions and used to vet new hires. Yeah. And not to not to create a very cookie cutter culture or cook cookie cutter employee base where everyone looks and sounds the same. Yeah, but do people embrace these values? Are these values they can get on board with are these values that they live, eat and breathe as well? Right, right.

Shizu Okusa 39:49

Right. Absolutely.

Maria Ross 39:51

I love it. I love it. So such great advice. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank

Shizu Okusa 39:56

you for having me, Maria. I appreciate it.

Maria Ross 39:58

We’re gonna have all your link in the show notes to all your wonderful products. I think you you gained a new customer in me so yay. But we’re gonna have all those links in the show notes. But for folks that are on the go or listening while they’re working out or on their morning walk, where’s one of the best places they can get in touch with you and learn more about you?

Shizu Okusa 40:16

Yeah, I think if you’re on a morning walk, YouTube is the best place to listen and engage with our video content. So that’s just apothecary ko on YouTube. For Instagram. You get a lot of recipes if you’re looking for inspiration on your next healthy mocktail or a digestive bitters tincture relief recipe, liver detox, all of that apothecary CO on Instagram. If you have business questions, you can find me on LinkedIn that she’s Yakuza. It’s a pretty rare name in the world of Japanese. Japanese names there. And yeah, I think that’s, that’s awesome. Yeah, just Google us and you’ll you’ll definitely find us

Maria Ross 40:50

and I will just point out for folks listening it’s apothecary with a que nada. Yes. So off the carry.co. But again, we’ll have all the links in the show notes. So thank you so much for your time. It was great to connect with you. Yeah,

Shizu Okusa 41:01

I appreciate it. Appreciate you. And thank you everyone for

Maria Ross 41:04

listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do, please rate and review and share it with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, please remember that kashflow creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access, show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Amy J. Wilson: How to Heal from Burnout to Embrace Empathy

Burnout is one of our biggest workplace challenges. Turnover and lost productivity due to burnout cost businesses $322B globally. Voluntary turnover costs 15+% of a company’s payroll annually. Most employees will seek out workplaces that support mental health in the future, showing the importance of these benefits in employee retention.

Today, I chat with Amy J. Wilson. We talk about how burnout is the biggest obstacle blocking us from empathy, what burnout is and its symptoms, where it comes from, and how it is especially a challenge in traditional care professions but can impact any of us in any organization. We discuss the difference between compassion fatigue and empathic distress. Amy also shares the Four Rs framework for healing from and preventing burnout.

To access this episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Burnout is preventing people from feeling empathy. It applies blinders that keep people from connecting with those around them.
Modeling is more effective than telling. You can model empathic behavior even in the face of adversity.
Curiosity is the first step in empathy. Burnout stops us from making that connection with someone else’s and their story.

“People think of burnout as a mental health condition, but it isn’t defined as a mental health condition as currently in the DSM. I think it has an origin in our own personal abilities and conditioned responses, but at the same time, it is a product of the system around us that often prioritizes profit over people.” — Amy J. Wilson

Episode References:

The Empathy Edge:
Amy J. Wilson: Leadership’s Larger Duty And Avoiding Empathy Deficit Disorder
Jamie Greenwood: Why Empathy for Others Starts with Compassion for Yourself
Articles on empathic distress:
Rob Volpe: “Which Is It? Empathic Distress or Compassion Fatigue?”
Adam Grant: “That Numbness You’re Feeling? There’s a Word for It“
Amy J. Wilson: “What Makes Us Human”

Brand Story Breakthrough course to help you craft a clear, compelling brand story – includes weekly office hours with Maria!

About Amy J Wilson, Founder and Guide, Healing for Work

Amy J. Wilson believes in the power within each of us to shape the future we want to have—a future with more awareness, compassion, connection, and love. They specialize in building and sustaining compassionate cultures that can hold change so that individuals and the organization can thrive. They have challenged the status quo and redesigned systems centered on empathy and equity in action at more than a dozen organizations with thousands of people within the private and public sectors. Amy is the bestselling author of Empathy for Change: How to Build a More Understanding World with language and frameworks to evolve individuals and organizations to meet the realities of today and reimagine a better way forward.

Amy founded Healing for Work, a community and program rooted in scientifically-proven ways for individuals to overcome burnout and improve workplace well-being. Through the Empathy Action Lab, they work with ambitious, purpose-driven organizations or entrepreneurs to design communities & movements with more empathy, to tell powerful stories, and to advance collective action.

Connect with Amy J. Wilson:

Empathy for Change | Healing for Work: healingforwork.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/healing-for-work

Instagram: instagram.com/healingforwork/

Learn more about Amy’s FREE Burnout Support Sessions at: healingforwork.com/join

Join the tribe, download your free guide! Discover what empathy can do for you: red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy

Connect with Maria:

Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.com

Learn more about Maria and her work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

X: @redslice

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Burnout is one of our biggest workplace challenges have life challenges. According to my guest today, 79% of US workers are emotionally detached or miserable at work. Two thirds of us employees are looking for more fulfilling work, and 75% of US workers reported at least one symptom of a mental health condition, turnover and lost productivity due to burnout costs businesses 322 billion globally. Voluntary turnover costs 15 to 20% of a company’s payroll each year, most 81% of employees will seek out workplaces that support mental health in the future, which shows the importance of these benefits in employee retention. Today, I chat with Amy J. Wilson, founder and guide of healing for work, a community and program rooted in scientifically proven ways for individuals to overcome burnout and improve workplace well being through the empathy Action Lab. She works with ambitious purpose driven organizations or entrepreneurs to design communities and movements with more empathy to tell powerful stories and to advance collective action. You may remember Amy from her past interview, talking about her book empathy for change, how to build a more understanding world. Today we talk about how burnout is the biggest obstacle blocking us from empathy, what burnout is, and its symptoms, where it comes from, how it is especially a challenge in traditional care professions, such as medicine or teaching, but how it can impact any of us in any organization. We discuss the difference between compassion, fatigue, versus empathic distress. And you will not want to miss out as Amy shares the four our framework for healing from and preventing burnout in your own work and life. This is such an important episode, take a listen. Welcome back friend of the show, Amy Wilson to the empathy edge podcast. Hi, how are you doing? I’m good, I’m good. I don’t know if people listening know that you and I are on a superhero team. Together, we are part of the empathy Superfriends which is this lovely little brain trust of empathy advocates and empathy ad activists who write and teach and speak about empathy. And so I get to see your smiling face at least once a month. So this month is a treat for twice. Yes, I love it. We mentioned you’ve been on the show before. But we are here to talk about burnout and sort of the next iteration of your empathy work and the next iteration of your programs. So let’s talk a little bit about first remind people really quickly of your story and how you got into empathy work. And what has led you from that empathy work into the field of burnout? Hmm.

Amy J Wilson 03:35

So I want to talk about it. Since we’re talking about burnout, I wanted to talk about like, experiences when I’ve experienced burnout in my own life, right? Because a lot of this work is like work you wish you had when you’re doing doing things through life. And so I have what I call my burnout supernovas that experienced that happened in my life. And it’s a really geeky thing. But a supernova is a really bright, super powerful explosion that happens when a star explodes. And so, but for me, that’s something when I have a really big project that expands really quickly, but it and then I burned out really quickly at the same time because of that explosion that happens. And that’s kind of happened three times in my life. And I’m on my fourth career right now. So as you know, I’m there’s a lot of things that I do but the first supernova I had was when it was after Hurricane Katrina, and I was living in a gutted out elementary school, doing rebuilding of the Gulf Coast. And I was asked to build in my early 20s, a rebuilt rebuilding project about 50 ohms and four months. Wow, which is why old with very little resources, right? And I had to like kind of pool resources within the second supernova. I’d say is that I went to work at Booz Allen Hamilton. I had done management consulting for 12 years after Hurricane Katrina, and I at Booz Allen was turning 100 years old. And so they decided, they asked me in a team of five people to come together and say, How can we build? It’s 100 years old. And we’re How can we build the next iteration of Booz Allen, for 25,000 people. So that was called building a culture of innovation. And I burned out very quickly wrote the playbook, the blueprint, the like ecosystem, we the team really worked around the clock. And then the third one, I would say, is I also focused@innovation.gov. And the better government movement is the third one. And this is I was an entrepreneur in residence in the Obama White House. And so during that time, I helped create co create a shared language around what innovation means in the public sector, but also a community of practice called the better government movement. And like a 200 active volunteers 5000 people grew that huge movement there. So it I have done a lot of very complex work, and also work around empathy at the intersection of empathy and innovation, right. So big cultural change, but also recognizing that empathy, and transformation is at the center of all that it’s an individual transformation, as well as a systems transformation. So that’s kind of like where the My career has taken me to. And where the world, my world like Island Empath, that highly sensitive person. And a, an empathy is my biggest strength. And so I bring that to everything that I do.

Maria Ross 06:50

And now that has led you into the world of burnout. So you’re doing this, you’re doing this project now healing, for healing for work, where you’re helping leaders and professionals deal with burnout in the workplace realm. But I’m sure that spills over into other areas of their lives. So how did you make that jump from empathy to burnout? Because I think you have a theory about what is our biggest blocker to empathy? Hmm,

Amy J Wilson 07:17

yeah, I call it my empathy epiphany. But I got names for all these things. I got a supernova, I got an empathy epiphany. And for me, I think I have in my research I published my book was published about three years ago, but I’ve been working on it for several years prior to that. And with that work, I, the more and more people I talked to, the more and more I realized that people are burnt out, right. And yet, especially post pandemic, there’s a mental health crisis there is there is, you know, a lot of systemic inequalities that are showing up in the world, you know, the politics, a lot of things that are happening in the world, are also making us really distressed as well. And so what I found is that we are in a perpetual state of burnout, especially in the United States. And so but then what I started thinking about what is blocking us from having empathy, I thought I’d oh my god, goodness, if we’re burnout, we are, that’s what’s blocking us from having empathy and compassion in the world. So when if you think about it, when you’re in burnout, you’re putting your blinders on your, your reach, you’re reacting instead of acting in the world, you know, just being responding, you’re really mindless to tell you the truth, right? You’re, you have tunnel vision, that so that blocks you from seeing the people around you and connecting, because you’re not even connected to yourself, let alone the people around you. Because it’s too painful to be connected to your, your inner self preservation

Maria Ross 08:47

mode. I know. Yeah. You know, this is why in the in the new book coming the empathy dilemma. The first two pillars are self awareness and self care. Because if your well is dry, you have nothing to draw on to stand study and be able to take on someone else’s point of view or someone else’s feelings or someone else’s perspective.

Amy J Wilson 09:06

Exactly. It’s about the oxygen mask on yourself. Yep, we like to say.

Maria Ross 09:12

And so So that led you into the work that you’re doing now, which is helping leaders and organizations not only deal with burnout, quote, unquote, but heal from it. And so I’d like to take a step back and talk about what exactly is burnout because I feel like it’s one of those terms where we all it’s like empathy, we all have our own definition. And a lot of people lay claim to it based on lots of varying conditions and feelings and emotions. So what is burnout and what are its symptoms?

Amy J Wilson 09:45

Right, right. So burnout is a state of emotional, mental and often physical exhaustion, that we that is brought on by prolonged and repeated stress that we experience in our lives. It’s often caused by problems that we have at work. But it can also appear in parenting and caretaking and romantic relationships and

Maria Ross 10:09

raising my hand for those of you listening as a mother, you

Amy J Wilson 10:13

know yourself. And so how that manifests in an invalid individual is that they might be physically or mentally exhausted, they might have a sense of dread about work, and, and the work that they do, they might be cynical, or angry or irritable at the end of the day. Those are the key signs of burnout. But there’s also people helping professions, doctors, nurses, you know, teachers, I notice really dwindling compassion, that’s called compassion, fatigue, and towards people that they’re caring about. So. And then also, if you’re feeling like you can’t really do your job effectively, you know, from a mental perspective, that’s, that’s something that shows up with burnout. So if you want to know where burnout is coming from, and like, if you think you’re experiencing burnout, we are on our website, we have a questionnaire of 15 different questions that you can ask yourself to determine if you think you’re burnout. So check that out on our website,

Maria Ross 11:16

and that website is the healing for

Amy J Wilson 11:18

work, healing for website.

Maria Ross 11:19

Okay, great. Yeah, everyone should check that out. I’m gonna go check that out after we finished recording. And so I think what’s, there’s a couple of things I’m hearing and what you’re saying. And one is that it’s not necessarily something you’re born with, or necessarily a propensity towards burnout, you might be a highly sensitive person or a highly empathic person, and you can get to burn out more quickly. But it’s not sort of a condition, it’s really something that can come and go and be healed from Yes,

Amy J Wilson 11:47

yes, for sure. It actually doesn’t show up. People think of it as like a mental health condition, it actually isn’t defined as a mental health condition is currently in the DSM, which is the manual for mental health conditions out there. So it is actually something that I think has an origins in both something that we all like our own personal abilities and conditioned responses that we have been learned from the world around us. But also at the same time, it is a product of the system that is around us that often prioritizes profit, you know, over the people that are around them, right? So I think it’s an in this world of burnout, it’s not not an either or in this way. It’s a yes. And what I would say as far as the origins of where this comes from, at the end of the day, right.

Maria Ross 12:42

And I think that that’s, that’s a hopeful thing to remember. Because sometimes it feels when you’re, when you’re experiencing the depths of burnout, it feels like you will never get any fuel back in your tank, it feels like you won’t ever climb back up out of that abyss. Right. And I think it’s important to know that you know, like you do with your programs and with your coaching is help people learn strategies and learn methods, to not only help them prevent burnout, but to sort of get themselves out of burnout when they’re in it. And then ultimately, when you talk about healing from burnout, do you mean that from like, a long term impact perspective of the burnout? Or are you talking about literally healing from when you’re in the depths of burnout? I

Amy J Wilson 13:27

think it’s both, right, it’s a yes. And for that, because when you’re in that, you know, state where you’re just reacting to what’s in front of you, you’re in fight or flight mode, right. And so, your or Feign is another part of the responses you can have. So that is something that’s your, your body, your entire body is connected to that. So you need to be able to what we call regulate, so regulate yourself in that instance. But then there’s also what we know is like, is so many people who like are taking for sabbaticals. For example, we were talking to somebody the other day, who was like, who works in you with overcoming with a war in Ukraine. And she says that people just fall off the face of the earth, right? So the map because they have such deep burnout that they’re experiencing. So what I’m what we’re also noticing is that it’s not just a band aid approach. It’s not just there’s a book that came out that we talked about on our on our website as well around. It’s not just self care, right? It’s much be much more beyond that. It’s not it’s not going to you’re not going to take a mani pedi for example. Like it’s going to be like I’m going to be done. It’s something that really have to go inward. Yes. Build the power within yourself. To be an actor in your life. Set the boundaries you need to set, build the relationships you need to build to create a better life for yourself.

Maria Ross 14:57

Well, and I love that you brought that up because when I talk about the self Hair pillar in my new book. It isn’t mani pedi it isn’t massage is my friend of mine who’s a women’s coach I’ve had on the show before Jamie Greenwood, and I’ll link to her episode where she talks about that self maintenance. That sorry, self care is Minar it’s physical care. It’s emotional care. It’s also not necessarily static or silent self care could be what rejuvenates you what refreshes you? What recharges you you know, maybe for some people, it’s paragliding, like that’s self care, even though that’s a huge adrenaline rush. But I think you know why it was so important for me to pare self awareness and then talk about self care is, if you’re not self aware, you don’t know what self care you need. You don’t know what what your triggers are, you don’t know where your blind spots are, you don’t know what lights you up unless you are more self aware. And so yeah, it’s funny, because the work that we do around empathy is so outward focused, as it you know, as it shouldn’t be, it’s about dealing with people’s perspectives. But there’s so much inner work that has to take place before you go, yeah, empathy effectively. Yeah, yeah. Every new conversation I have, like this conversation right now, it just it reiterates that point, and not that we want to spend all of our time navel gazing. But yes, we do have to do some work by getting our own house in order before we can open that house to other perspectives and a needs and opinions. So I’m gonna I’m gonna segue us for a second, we weren’t planning to talk about this. But since you brought it up, I haven’t talked about this yet on the show is this difference between compassion, fatigue, and empathic distress. And we both have a really good friend Rob Volpe, who did a wonderful article a few weeks ago that I’ll link to where he talked about the difference. But what is the difference from your perspective, and especially as how it relates to maybe I’m not using the right language recovering from burnout. Mm

Amy J Wilson 16:55

hmm. So they also wrote an article probably about like six or eight months ago, I’ll send it to you. So you can, you can also link to that to around empathic distress in particular. And so I talked a little bit earlier about compassion, fatigue, and with compassion, fatigue is a condition that many people it’s someone becomes numb to the suffering of others. And they’re a lot less able to feel empathy towards those individuals. And there, they feel less hope in their ability to help at the end of the day. So it is actually an like an equation of secondary trauma, experiencing the trauma of someone else. Plus burnout equals your state passion fatigue, okay. And so, and that’s the emotional duress, secondary trauma is the emotional duress that you experience with that firsthand trauma that you’re experiencing. So it makes it makes sense that nurses or nurses, doctors, first responders, even therapists, I would think teachers to teachers, yeah, there’s experience. And that’s a large, we actually have my co conspirator on this work. She is a teacher who left the profession and wants to help a teachers heal. Right. So we’ve been co creating that forum for that reason, for as we’re up on healing professions. But if you take him on the other side of the spectrum, you asked about empathic distress. So empathic distress is, is what’s happening in our bodies, we are wired to pick up signals from other people’s nervous systems. And so that is called empathic resonance. But sometimes we’re going to when other people are giving these signals, like distracts it does distress signals. And I’m like, SOS, like, if you’re in the, in the middle of the water, like these SOS like, yeah, these beacons going is that are, like going off, you’re picking up those signals, whether you like it or not, right? Your body is just wired to do this. And so what’s happening? Is it making you even more stressed at the end of the day, and that is why that people who are in workplaces that are challenging workplaces, other people are around you are in distress, even in your own personal relationships. If somebody is in distress, you already start feeling that distress as well. And so what happens with that is that over time, over the course of a day, you might start off with energy, but at the end of the day, you’re showing up depleted, and exhausted. And so we check out, we start disconnecting from ourselves and from others.

Maria Ross 19:43

We numb ourselves within up with negative behaviors, drinking drugs, all the things right, the things that distract us. I’m wondering too, I’ve heard that empathic distress is also something that can happen to us when we’re hearing about so much violence and pain. Heat and suffering going on in the world, right? And right now we’re sort of in that situation where you just feel like it’s so much, you’re never going to be able to have an impact, you’re never going to be able to help anyone. So you sort of just like, I’m done, I’m out, I can too much.

Amy J Wilson 20:18

Shut off the faucet. Right, you know. And I think Adam Grant did a piece recently about empathic distress when it comes to that, too. And I think of it in my own therapy of like, it’s like a gray door that shuts down when there’s emotions coming up, like I have to do. Like, that’s, that’s part of my own story about dissociation is like, when it gets too emotional, you shut down, and you shut that off, because it’s too hard to feel. Right.

Maria Ross 20:47

Right. And our bodies will do that to us to protect us. Yeah. So it’s emotional. And it’s mental, but it’s also physical, right?

Amy J Wilson 20:56

Oh, yeah. Yeah, a lot of this work is the physical reconnecting to who we are, and recognizing what’s our inner life? What is the what is our feelings? How are we showing up? It’s even deeper than just awareness. It’s like, how does that show up? Up in like, in Cymatics? In our body, right, so Right, right. Part of what we do. Okay,

Maria Ross 21:16

so let’s talk about the solution. Right? For people listening, who are going they’re nodding their heads vigorously going, Yes, I’m in it, I’m there, what can I do, and you have a framework that you are going to share with us and then also that you go deeper into in your program and on your website, but give us a little a moose boosh of your framework,

Amy J Wilson 21:36

and love a moose. Boosh. So I’ve got the four R’s framework, the first part of the framework is called regulation. So earlier, I mentioned that the first part of this work, it has to start with yourself in Trump personal work. So we’re going to go deep into uncovering your emotions, your feelings, what you need to do to understand and define who we are, and our purpose and principles. So we focus on something like the mirror, like what we look in and look at ourselves. But we also look at what the the window is how our identities show up in the world. So give us an example of that. Yeah, so some something I would say is like, we actually go into all the different pieces of identity. So one piece of my identity is I am I show up as a pansexual. Woman, and so but I’m also have a, like a disability, like an invisible disability. And so I sometimes people see me and see that I’m showing up in in, in a certain way, right? And I’m if I’m holding hands with a man, for example, they’re going to assume that I’m heterosexual, right? And but I do have this additional identity. So like, how is that mindset kind of shaped, being how I perceive the world at the end of the day?

Maria Ross 23:01

So if I can reflect back, what I hear you saying is that you’re it’s not just your own identity for yourself, but your perception of the identity. Others have a view? Is that, am I on the right track there? How we

Amy J Wilson 23:14

perceive the world? It’s so it’s how can we we take in the world when we talk about identity. And there’s lots of different pieces of of that and we go into like 20, some dimensions of, of your identity. But identity can be things that we’ve inherited, you know, so this mindset of, you know, what we’ve gotten done in the US, for example, we have a focus on rugged rugged individualism is really big here, you know, and so

Maria Ross 23:43

don’t get me started.

Amy J Wilson 23:45

Individualistic versus the collective. Right. Exactly. Yeah, spectrum. Yeah. So all of these things exist on a spectrum. So where do we live in these kind of like spectrums of life? Right? So that’s, that’s a deep exploration. So that’s like the first piece where you’re just being like, who am I? How do I perceive myself, but how do I perceive the world? That is what regulation so I can get into that space, right? Part two is called relationships. And so that’s where we talk about the work relationships, we help you to start seeing the system we call it. This is where you start doing interpersonal relationships. When people think of empathy, they usually think of interpersonal relationships. And, you know, we said earlier it’s inside and also engaging with the other people. So you’re now starting to share emotions with other people, share feelings with other people, you’re going to challenge your assumptions. This is where you start set setting boundaries, and understanding what our boundaries and we were never taught boundaries growing up, especially

Maria Ross 24:50

women. Yeah, especially especially women. You’re not supposed to have a boundary as a woman. Yep, yeah, worse.

Amy J Wilson 24:56

Just do what other people tell you to do. Yes, exactly. So 100%. So also we help you reframe failure as learning as you go out into the world. And then you’re overcoming the self doubt that you have inside of the, the your comfort with ambiguity and changing and also, how do you take action. So throw this out this whole experience, it’s like, looking inward, but it’s also been like, action is a big part of what we do. So that’s part two. Part three is resilience. And so this part of the framework is where it’s putting things into practice. And so the first two are is like, inter intrapersonal, interpersonal, part three is where you start seeing the start engaging with the extra personal, right. So that is like the system that’s around us and start seeing how do we manage our adversity by drawing on our resources, as we keep showing up in this space. And so we’re going to be more equipped with that to deal with setbacks in this work. But it really has to do with like taking all of those things you learned in the first two sections, and show up to pause and reflect? How am I doing? Because we don’t do that enough. We don’t get to sit and be like,

Maria Ross 26:16

we’re on. We’re on to the next thing. Yeah, right.

Amy J Wilson 26:18

Exactly. Right. How do we How did we I did I react to somebody in a very interesting way there, right? How can I reframe conversations that and have conversations that people perceive as hard conversations, but but at the end of the day, they create better relationships at the end of the day. Right? So and then also, what is who are your trusted allies? Who are your who’s the community around you, that can help you grow and be better? And then the fourth piece is called reintegration. This is a piece that I love myself. And it’s, it’s actually where empathy and innovation meet, and that experience. And so we know that you’ve learned in this container in a better way that you get to see what are the things that we’re doing? How do we, we know that there’s in the world that you’re integrating into, they’re not going to be focusing on like the world of work? It seems authentic, you want to try to go out into the world in an authentic way. And so the world around you doesn’t speak the same language. So how do you go into that language, and start creating a system that will allow you to not just change yourself, but change your team and also change the system around you?

Maria Ross 27:35

I love that this is the final step of the framework, because I actually wanted to ask you about that before you even got to this part. And it’s that idea of we can do all this work, and create this language and the system for ourselves. What do we do when we’re confronted in, in interpersonal relationships where the other people don’t have that awareness? Don’t have that language? Don’t have that understanding? Right? I get that question. A lot of like, I’m doing all this work, and I’m trying to but then when I actually integrate and engage with someone else who has not had that those learnings, those epiphanies, that, that deep reflection, what is the advice that you give to those people?

Amy J Wilson 28:17

Well, I personally think that if you are showing up differently than I know this from my own personal healing work, that if you show up differently, the people around you start showing up differently as well. So that is a key part of this work is like you’re continually having a community in turn to. But we also can be beacons of hope for other people at the same time. So I can’t always control what somebody else does. But if I’m reacting or responding actually, to somebody in a in a kind and compassionate way, people are going to understand they’re like, Oh, well, this person is responding to me in a different way than I was expecting before. So that that change can actually occur through that. But there’s also a lot of things that you learn from, like community organizing, that we’re bringing into this piece around. How do you get people to engage? It’s quite the ladder of engagement. So how did you get different people who are leaning into this work already, and get them to be change leaders, and almost build a movement of empathy? And, and overcoming burnout within the system? Because we can’t have one individual can’t just change a system. But we have to build a coalition of the willing. I

Maria Ross 29:35

love that because that’s actually how I answer that question a lot is that it’s kind of not it’s not our work or our job to necessarily convert someone else. But we can show up in the exchange, we can show up in the interaction in a certain way that models the behavior. We all know that that modeling is more effective than telling. And so if you’re modeling that in the behavior and even if someone’s being antagonistic For argumentative or, you know, withholding, they’re going to notice if you’re not getting fazed by that, if you’re still reaching out, if you’re still, if you’re still acting with empathy, if you’re still asking questions, they may not admit it in the conversation, but they’re going to know something was different about that conversation, because quite, quite likely, that’s not the reaction they get in their other exchanges, they probably are met, the reason they have those reactions, and they have that that model for themselves is because that’s what they’ve been getting back from other people who haven’t done the work either. And so it’s sort of like, you’re kind of shocking them into, into engaging with you of like, oh, usually somebody yells at me by now for asking that question or doing that thing, or usually they walk out of the room and slam the door when I react that way, but this person has stayed, this person is actually engaging with me, what’s going on here, and you sort of create that intrigue around, maybe there’s a different way that you can interact with someone and you you might, that other person might actually really like the experience of being in that exchange and want more of it. Right? So little by little, it’s like these little ripples, right? Like, and then they go on, and they you know, let someone in front of them in traffic later that day, you know, it’s that whole ad knock on effect is

Amy J Wilson 31:21

the ripple impact. I know I wasn’t thinking about in the bigger in a bigger context of curiosity is something that is the number one thing I teach people, like, that’s the first step and empathy really, like a lot of judgment. And like, if you start having curiosity about the other person, you know, you start questioning, like, why are they reacting this way? Maybe something happened to them at work, or maybe they’re just having a bad day, all these different things. You start having, you know, self compassion, you have compassion, but you have compassion for them. So you’re like, Okay, where are they coming from? And then you can be like, how do I respond in a way that might be helpful for them?

Maria Ross 32:01

That’s so interesting, because Well, number one, I am constantly working on my Miss Jegi Ness all the time. And what I’ve what I’ve interjected into my thoughts, is, instead of judging making myself go, well, that’s interesting. Yeah, and just kind of like observing it and thinking about, and it also reminds me of when I wait, you know, folks that have listened to my podcast know about my experience, surviving a ruptured brain aneurysm. And when I was in therapy, we did cognitive behavioral therapy to help us with the damage that had been done to our emotional regulation and our emotional filters, especially with a frontal lobe injury, and cognitive behavioral therapy, challenges you invites you to come up with potential alternatives to the initial explanation, you’ve given yourself in your head about what someone is doing. So for example, that person just rudely cut in front of me in traffic, they’re a jerk bla bla, maybe they just found out their wife is in the hospital, and they’re trying to get to the hospital, maybe they got fired today, maybe they and that’s a very simplistic view of that therapy, I don’t claim to be an expert in that therapy. But that’s what I took away from it is, because what we would do is we would measure our emotions before. And then after we thought of alternatives. And always the emotions were less angry, less resentful, less, you know, less aggressive, when you when you start to think of alternate theories or alternate reasons why someone might be behaving the way they were behaving, if you don’t feel so self righteous after that. And so what everything you’re saying is reminding that because I, you know, you forget after you’re not in therapy anymore, but but it’s it’s a muscle that you have to practice. Yeah. And luckily, we get lots of opportunities to practice dealing with bad behavior, right? So,

Amy J Wilson 33:58

yeah, well, when it comes to what you were saying, when you were saying that it was like, it’s all coming back to empathy, right? Because what empathy is it’s feeling with someone instead of for them. And so when you are having that curiosity, when you’re thinking and using the CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, you’re starting to say, what is not the story that I’m having? It’s their story. Right? Right, the story they could be having, and you’re now having empathy, right? And so, but that’s the exact thing that burnout stops us from doing right. Yeah, able to open up No, and to have that that space, you know, as your your,

Maria Ross 34:33

your bruised your, your, your sense. You’re just like, Ah, I’m just, I don’t deal with somebody else right now. Right. So I love the connection that you’ve made there. And this is such a great conversation. We could talk a million hours more sure. But all your links will be in the show notes, your your link to healing for work to your books to some of the articles that you mentioned, but for folks on the go listening while they’re In exercising and practicing self care for their physical body, where is the one place people can go to find out more information, right?

Amy J Wilson 35:07

So healing for work.com. It’s healing for work as a community and a program for individuals healing from burnout or preventing burnout. That’s also another part. We’re not just talking about healing from it. And so it’s, it’s also helping to shift the system for everyone. So there’s programs for individuals, there’s programs for organizations, I always want to get one plug, we have weekly support sessions, every Tuesday from at 3pm. Pacific 6pm. Eastern time. So later today, it is a Tuesday, we’re going to be having anyone experiencing burnout can come and participate in us go go to healing for work.com/join. And you can learn about our two coaching programs, and also about support sessions and sign up there. I love that.

Maria Ross 35:58

Thank you for sharing that. I’m sure a lot of people are going to run over to that URL right now, Amy, a pleasure as always talking with you, musing about all these big issues with you. And thank you for spending the time with us today.

Amy J Wilson 36:11

Yeah, thank you for having me. This has been great. And thank you everyone for listening

Maria Ross 36:15

to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you liked what you heard, you know what to do, rate, review and share with a friend. And until next time, remember that cashflow? Creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Stay well and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com. There you can listen to past episodes, access shownotes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria. Never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

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